It is basically a "Mono Black Devotion" deck with less devotion payoff.
maybe that's the key to the deck. I still think Zombies needs to take advantage of Bridge from Below somehow someway.
So how I see it is we have two routes. As zombies alone we do not have the sufficient cards to cover our missing slots thus a deck which placed top 8 that uses the vital vampire cards and B devotion works.
Thus if we want a mono black zombie to work we DO have to be a pseudo Aggro b devotion; however for those who want to dip into white, I feel like you HAVE to become a pseudo zombie aristocrat deck.
With the cards we have available right now, zombies by themselves will never be viable, for now we have to depend on other cards to cover what zombies don't have available to them.
I agree, I think having some zombie synergies for attrition value is good but ultimately we are either an aggro deck or an aristocrats deck. Now whether zombicrats is a better or worse version of aristocrats I'm not sure, as I'm in the aggro camp. But I certainly think that the attrition value of zombies makes for a resilient aggro deck, whether mono black or bw or bwx.
I disagree. That hybrid devotion list was (obviously) before amonkhet. With the new zombies i see no obstacle to a full tribal deck. New toys will have to be tried, much testing will have to be done.
But right now is the worst moment to say «zombies by themselves will never be viable». I mean c'mon we just got a bunch of playables, you gotta try at least! Unless you have a crystal ball this claim is largely unjustified. Lets keep those comments for in a month or two, when we got to try things.
The only reason you can say "zombicrats" is because we don't have a strong dedicated zombie sac outlet so we turn to Cartel Aristocrat or Viscera Seer. Bloodghast is the next inclusion, but if you focus on recurring Gravecrawler over continually getting Bloodghast triggers I'd think you will be even better off in the long run (because of the new Zombie support the deck gets). Basically other than 1 card at this point the deck is Zombie tribal and it is viable as that. The truth is that no one version of the deck has breakout viability at this point so anything is game.
I'm not done playing with my Collected Company idea. The deck still has its most power at the 3-drop slot so I want to exploit that. If it means going into Abzan then I'll try it.
This has been tried a long time ago. You can see the discussions and conclusions we reached here somewhere on this thread. But i don't blame you for not digging into pages and pages, so the verdict was: no good.
The fact is nameless inversion was just such a bad card by itself. And this was before fatal push was printed, nothing justifies running a 2 mana removal spell that doesn't kill everything. Also haakon, stromgald scourge required way too much support, and has built-in conflicts: it is legendary and bad in multiple, you only want one. But you want to draw it often since you warped your whole deck around it. And for all that effort you get an very bad deck, just to have an engine that isn't even better than blasting station + gravecrawler, and that folds to the same hate. The card is cute with diregraf colossus but thats it.
I disagree. That hybrid devotion list was (obviously) before amonkhet. With the new zombies i see no obstacle to a full tribal deck. New toys will have to be tried, much testing will have to be done.
But right now is the worst moment to say «zombies by themselves will never be viable». I mean c'mon we just got a bunch of playables, you gotta try at least! Unless you have a crystal ball this claim is largely unjustified. Lets keep those comments for in a month or two, when we got to try things.
I don't think anyone is saying zombie tribal isn't viable, We love zombies, that's why we're all here! Lol
And I would still call it a zombie deck if it had to have a few non-zombie creatures. As Torpf was.alluding, it's not zombicrats because of Cartel Aristocrats, it's Zombicrats because it plays a sac-drain game. If zombicrats ditches aristocrat AND becomes the best zombie based strategy then it would probably lose the moniker. But for now, I think it helps distinguish between go-wide, drain and aggro versions.
Random impressions from messing around so far, take with a grain of salt:
-Blasting Chamber machine gun is pretty good with Gravecrawler and kinda OK with Relentless Dead. Still having a hard time assessing Wayward Servant and the drain subtheme in general, mostly because there aren't enough pieces to make it consistent. How good Wayward Servant is really depends upon how slowly you can grind down the pace of the game while also keeping Servant on the board. The reward ceiling is high when everything works out but sometimes this just feels out of place in an otherwise competent beatdown deck. Needs more testing.
-Although Collective Brutality seemed attractive on first glance since it has a lot of utility and we can reduce the disadvantage of discard, it's hand-pick mode can't pluck out grave hate so I don't think it's worth the slot(s). I would still love to have access to some kind of looting effect, though, both as virtual card advantage for our deck but also to help assemble drain pieces and make that side plan more consistent.
-I like Diregraf Colossus when combined with Gravecrawler in general, and especially when you have Gravecrawler + Sac Outlet. 1 Mana / 0 cards for a 2/2 zombie token is a great rate. Other than Gravecrawler, though, we don't actually want our Zombies to be in the grave -- Geralf's Messenger and Relentless Dead are hopefully just there for a second before their recursion abilities resolve. It's too bad that if we're doing well in a game and don't have any zombies in the grave we have to play a somewhat fragile 2/2 for 3. Maybe I'm overthinking this, though? In matchups where you'd worry about playing a 2/2 for 3 you've probably already had a couple zombies bolted off anyways..? In any event, Colossus's token spawning ability definitely helps make Wayward Servant more viable. I am a little sad that Dark Salvation, CoCo, and Relentless Dead's X ability don't get you any extra Zombie tokens from Colossus, but maybe I'm getting greedy lol.
-Tidehollow Sculler seems ideal at 2, maybe 3 copies MB paired with 4-5x Inquisition/Thoughtseize. I'd keep the other 1-2 Scullers in the side, though.
-Stupid little thought: even though Wayward Servant dilutes the devotion theme by costing BW, when Gray Merchant enters the BF Servant's ability triggers and effectively makes up the devotion missed by the W in its cost. Gary is a bit weaker with a few BW zombies mixed in but I haven't dismissed him as a curve topper yet.
-Torpf's BW list seems like it's on the right track and I found myself making most of the same build decisions. I am also pretty curious to see what an Abzan CoCo zombie list would look like.
Hey everyone. After seeing the new additions in AKH, I decided to give zombies a shot. The new white ones in particular interested me. After building my version of the deck and talking with some other people to tweak it, I checked out this thread. To my surprise, almost everyone here seems to be on an aristocrats-style build. Mine, on the other hand, is more tempo-oriented, similar to fish. Here's my list right now:
A quick rundown: This deck is playing more of a tempo game, and doesn't care too much about using graveyard recursion. It helps us recover after a board wipe, but it isn't central to our gameplan. Vial allows us plenty of tricks, and lets us cheat on mana. Binding Mummy acts like Merrow Reejerey, allowing us to tap down opposing blockers when we want to swing, and to stop potential attacks thanks to vial. Servant also gives us some extra reach, and also works fairly well with vial. Colossus has also been great. Colossus gives us extra Mummy and Servant triggers, which can help speed us up. I originally had some number of Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek in the main, but as soon as someone mentioned that Sculler was a zombie, it seemed obviously better. Mutavault gives us extra attackers and blockers, and is great for getting just a little extra damage in. The sideboard is a variety of things. Brutality because it's really just a solid card. An extra Cryptbreaker, Lili, and some Relentless Dead to help if we need to grind. Relic to help hose graveyard strategies, and stony to deal with artifacts.
I'm excited to hear your thoughts. I think the new white zombies bring a lot of potential to the deck.
That's an interesting angle that makes a lot of sense, too. One of the biggest issues or inefficiencies I had run into was that if you don't have lord effects then the Zombies without Menace or some sort of recursion (Tidehollow Sculler, Binding Mummy, Wayward Servant, Colossus-sans-counters) just have to sit there and skip combat in order to milk their abilities without putting their bodies at risk. The exceptions were when you had a Relentless Dead as insurance to get them back or Cryptbreaker to use their bodies for EoT tapping card draw. Once you have 8 lords that both pump them and make them more difficult to block (Menace) or less profitable to block (Deathtouch) you can really start leveraging their bodies better in combat. Although it doesn't have access to the nifty drain loops afforded by Gravecrawler + Blasting Chamber, the whole deck would probably be much more consistent.
Vial definitely makes Binding Mummy playable, and instant speed Tidehollow Sculler is great, too. Vialing in Death Baron could be a game winner.
Here are a couple thoughts:
Unlike Merfolk, you aren't running 12 (!) cantrips, so your land count needs to be closer to 22+ to function reliably. Though not a cantrip, Cryptbreaker helps with card draw, but you only have 2 copies of him.. I would definitely run the full set of him and cut Dread Wanderer. Merfolk only runs 4x 1-drop creatures, Taxes lists run 0-4x. For your curve IMO you should pick one 1-drop creature, max. I'd start with 4x Cryptbreaker since you need to draw gas to feed Vial and you could add ~3x Relentless dead instead of Gravecrawler -- it sounds crazy since I've found Gravecrawler to be incredible but you can't do the gravecrawler machine-gun shenanigans anyways, and theoretically vial should free up more mana to pay for Relentless Dead's abilities. Just a thought. Whatever you do, pay attention to your curve and make sure you're getting full value out of Vial.
Merfolk runs 29 creatures. I think you could also shave down 3-4 creatures to work in that missing land and add one more disruption spell. 4x Path or Push, for instance. Maybe Push (with extra fetches) since you have fewer T1 plays without Gravecrawler, Push is better for your Tempo, and it's in your primary color, but Path is unconditional exiling so I could see either one working. Collective Brutality could be good (pitching late Vials sounds great) but you might also test 1x Dark Salvation since the tokens become increasingly valuable with more lords.
After a bunch of goldfishing and a handful of quick matches I'm currently here:
EDIT: Trimmed a land for Sign in Blood as gas & situational reach
I'm pretty happy with the numbers in the list so far, just tuning the manabase, deciding on Path vs Push, and testing a few things in the Dark Salvation flex slot. It seems significantly better than the Zombicrats version due to the added consistency and better utilization of the support bodies, so I will probably focus most of my testing on it.
@BACE - I like your deck quiet a bit more than most of the other lists I've seen. Plays similar to the way I like to play zombies... Aether Vial is definitely interesting in a deck with 4 Binding Mummy. My only suggestion is to try to find some room for Lilly Last hope in the main. The -2 being able to put the creature in your hand instead of the battlefield is especially potent for binding mummy and the +1 let's you push through more often than you might imagine.
I have to agree with what shelldell said; however my main concern is the inclusion of vial. Yes it would assist us in combat shenanigans and tempo plays; however in a very aggressive meta we are in now, I am worried about the loss of fuel. Like shelldell said our first step is to add more cryptbreakers; however I am worried: is that enough fuel? As a person who plays Slivers and Allies, I feel like I can afford to play vials not due to card draw, but thanks to Collected company. Since I am kinda new to MTG and have not memorized all the good cards in modern, I was wondering if we have anything in black or white to create a similar tempo in cards?
I don't think anyone is saying zombie tribal isn't viable, We love zombies, that's why we're all here! Lol
And I would still call it a zombie deck if it had to have a few non-zombie creatures. As Torpf was.alluding, it's not zombicrats because of Cartel Aristocrats, it's Zombicrats because it plays a sac-drain game. If zombicrats ditches aristocrat AND becomes the best zombie based strategy then it would probably lose the moniker. But for now, I think it helps distinguish between go-wide, drain and aggro versions.
I've noticed you use the word aggro to define your deck, but i'm not sure what this means. If you mean attacking with creatures to win, that's just playing a "fair" deck, not aggro. I've looked at your list and i fail to see how it is "aggro". To me a true aggro deck is a deck that maximizes winning on turn 4 (or before) with damage/attacking. We can't even win on turn 4 by attacking/draining at all. All versions of zombies win by attacking, making us a fair deck, but i wouldn't call any of the decklists i've seen here "aggro". BACE's list is probably the closest to aggro because of all the lords and the aether vials to speed up damage.
EDIT: for people looking for card advantage, torpf has suggested ranger of eos some time ago. I think it could work out as maybe 2x, if you include a viscera seer you can get a lot of value. It has the advantage of grabbing burrenton forge-tender from the sideboard too.
I've noticed you use the word aggro to define your deck, but i'm not sure what this means. If you mean attacking with creatures to win, that's just playing a "fair" deck, not aggro. I've looked at your list and i fail to see how it is "aggro". To me a true aggro deck is a deck that maximizes winning on turn 4 (or before) with damage/attacking. We can't even win on turn 4 by attacking/draining at all. All versions of zombies win by attacking, making us a fair deck, but i wouldn't call any of the decklists i've seen here "aggro". BACE's list is probably the closest to aggro because of all the lords and the aether vials to speed up damage.
I guess what I mean is that I want to start attacking on turn 2 and then using my mana every turn as efficiently as possible to continue advancing my board and/or pushing through damage rather than setting up combos or synergies. The reason I choose zombies over, say naya zoo, is because I like the added attrition once my resources run out. I hate the feeling of having no options going into the late game. This is why you will notice only 2ish hand disruption spells in my main deck.. they aren't really doing what I like, but the power level of these kind of cards when you are in black is too hard to ignore.
Fair enough. For my part i think the synergies are too strong to pass up, and they are what gives zombies their competitive advantage, but i encourage everyone to try things for themselves after the new set is released, even the things i don't like.
So for now i'd like to try one of these two lists:
I think lili strengthens the attrition plan and completes the removal/discard package.
So the only difference between the two decks is the 3 drop zombie. The zombicrats version is focused on reach and more individually strong 3 drops, but it is more vulnerable to graveyard hate. The zombiecalypse list is more focused on going wide and less vulnerable to hate, but relies more on combat to «get there».
It is basically a "Mono Black Devotion" deck with less devotion payoff.
maybe that's the key to the deck. I still think Zombies needs to take advantage of Bridge from Below somehow someway.
So how I see it is we have two routes. As zombies alone we do not have the sufficient cards to cover our missing slots thus a deck which placed top 8 that uses the vital vampire cards and B devotion works.
Thus if we want a mono black zombie to work we DO have to be a pseudo Aggro b devotion; however for those who want to dip into white, I feel like you HAVE to become a pseudo zombie aristocrat deck.
With the cards we have available right now, zombies by themselves will never be viable, for now we have to depend on other cards to cover what zombies don't have available to them.
If Zombies had a Bloodghast equivalent it could really push the deck over the top imho, though Prized Amalgam is very close and should definetly be played.
Is this where the zombie party is going on? I've been running zombies for a while, and I'm thinking of trying this out when the new set releases. (I made a thread about it, but this is where all the action is!)
Is this where the zombie party is going on? I've been running zombies for a while, and I'm thinking of trying this out when the new set releases. (I made a thread about it, but this is where all the action is!)
A few things to note:
I don't think you want the full 4 plague belcher, the card does come with a drawback. I've been playing spirits and one issue is getting 3 drop flooded. Curving out properly is very important aspect for these type of decks, your deck lacks quality 2 drops.
Also mortarpod is pretty bad, paying 2 for each sac is super clunky! The one and only reason i could see it being worth it is playing death baron instead of some other 3 drops. You see the one thing that makes mortarpod unique is it is worded in a way that makes the equipped creature deals the damage. This means if that creature has deathtouch, the effect will remember that, making it kill anything.
Geth's verdict is a strange choice. You usually want to target with your removal. Liliana of the veil's edict is fine because it can be repeated, and combined with her plus she can take over the game.
Phantasmal image is another strange choice. I can see the value, again, from playing spirits. Copying a lord or anything is sweet, but in spirit the hexproof negates the drawback. I just don't see it being that good since you get zero value copying your one drop, once image hits the grave it does nothing.
Last your sideboard is also odd. What do you care so much about for running 4 leyline of sanctity (that you can't even cast if topdecked)? We aren't combo, we can take the discard spells. Also why so much graveyard hate, and why choose leyline of the void along surgical extraction, which both go super poorly together (can't surgical anything under leyline)?
If Zombies had a Bloodghast equivalent it could really push the deck over the top imho, though Prized Amalgam is very close and should definetly be played.
Prized Amalgam is obviously only as good as its support -- in Dredge you have something like 24 (!) discard outlets and 10 recursive creatures which can bring Amalgam along for the ride back to the battlefield, 8 of which are completely free to cast and trigger off of very common plays (land drops and dredging). You are pretty much never casting Amalgam for 1BU. Within the Zombie tribe we don't have many good cards that act as discard outlets short of packing in Collective Brutality or Thoughtscour (which would dilute our creature base). In terms of recursion we have Gravecrawler (good!) and Relentless Dead's X ability, which requires (1) Relentless Dead to be on the BF first and die, (2) you to have X mana open at that moment, and (3) for you to have both Prized Amalgam and second zombie (costing X) in the graveyard.. not terribly likely to come together reliably.
So yes, if they printed another free recursive zombie that's as good as Bloodghast (probably won't make that mistake again lol) or at least more Gravecrawlers rather than than Dread Wanderers and they also print good looting abilities stapled onto efficiently-costed Zombies we could think about building around Amalgam. We'll see what Hour of Devastation brings! For now, though, I think that's probably a trap which would make us essentially a worse version of Dredge that's slower and with less payoff, and that we wouldn't gain enough relative to how much we'd soften ourselves to hate.
RE:Prized Amalgam - I have to agree with Shelldell. I'll say that you should probably ignore the Zombie type line on Amalgam and only play it if the ability is stellar in your deck (ie,. you are recurring it often on T2 and 90% of the time on turn 3). Even if your manabase supports hardcasting Amalgam, we can do much better.
Re:Fourdogsinahorsesuit - Ace's observation are nearly spot on. My only dissent would be on Geth's Verdict - I think the card is fine in a list with nine 2 power 1-drops and 4 Fatal Push. It is especially strong with the new addition of another staple Menace zombie. I will repeat Ace's caution on the 3 drop glut in light of this though, you are likely wanting to add to the board on T2, not cast a Geth's Verdict, so I would look to count it as a T3 or later spell. My recommendations would be to drop Phantasmal Image all together, and reduce both the Geth's Verdict and Plague Belcher count to 3. One spell to consider in this place could be Vapor Snag. It could potentially provide you with some of what you are looking to gain from Geth's Verdict, while only costing 1 mana, meaning you can still add to the board and continue pressure on T2.
Hi guys, I´ve been following this thread for a long time and I´m just as excited as you are, but still feel like zombies are either too slow or just weak on the first turns.. Therefore I think that a little control is really necessary, just like the list Ace1 posted a while ago, 4 Tidehollow Sculler and 4 Inquisition of Kozilek. What do you think?
And I was also thinking about what you think of Anointed Procession. We all would like to play Endless Ranks of the Dead, but it´s not good enough, so why not this? Yes it´s a 4 drop card that does nothing when it gets in, but seeing we are doing turn 5/6 swings, the trigger it would cause with 4 Diregraf Colossus or the 4 Dark Salvation and Wayward Servant would be madness! Like zombie apocalypse mad..
Anyway just a wild thought..
If you want a bunch of tokens you may as well go with Shadow of the Grave + Zombie Infestation. Throw out probably about 5-6 cards, get them back, throw them back out. Get 12 power over 6 bodies on turn 3. If you threw out Bloodghast or Gravecrawler you can get them back into the battlefield, then OMG if you tossed out Prized Amalgam it'll recur, and you have +20 power on turn 3!!!!
That scenario is impossible, but fun to think about.
I have been testing briefly a mono black version and the results are very promising (i haven't tested postboard games, so I have to see the impact of graveyard hate). The list is this:
The Dread Wanderers have been a little disappointing for its high cost to come back, but I like having so much 1 mana threads in a meta with so little "wraths".
Looks good but i'd make the following tweaks:
committing to the full 12 one drops might be good, not a lot of tribal decks have that option so that might be a good angle, but you've got to take advantage of that more. In such a list i'd definitely run some lords, at least 2, maybe 4. Death baron seems like the best one, making combat a nightmare for your opponent (do you want to chump my deathtouch gravecrawler that will come back anyways?). You could cut a few removal for them. Maybe you want to splash blue for diregraf captain. Also compelling deterrence could be great with the lilianas!
Hi guys, I´ve been following this thread for a long time and I´m just as excited as you are, but still feel like zombies are either too slow or just weak on the first turns.. Therefore I think that a little control is really necessary, just like the list Ace1 posted a while ago, 4 Tidehollow Sculler and 4 Inquisition of Kozilek. What do you think?
And I was also thinking about what you think of Anointed Procession. We all would like to play Endless Ranks of the Dead, but it´s not good enough, so why not this? Yes it´s a 4 drop card that does nothing when it gets in, but seeing we are doing turn 5/6 swings, the trigger it would cause with 4 Diregraf Colossus or the 4 Dark Salvation and Wayward Servant would be madness! Like zombie apocalypse mad..
Anyway just a wild thought..
Not having enough tokens is not an issue, i'd say the card is win more for sure.
Alright everyone. So after seeing your suggestions and getting some from others outside of MTGS, this is my current list. It's more on the grindy end of tempo, and utilizes the grave a bit more than the old version. I gotta say, this new version definitely feels good. My biggest problem before with Relentless Dead is that I didn't RTFC, and thought that its second ability returned the zombie to the hand, not the battlefield. I feel stupid, but thankfully some people have set me straight. Anyway, here's my current list:
I still have some tweaks I want to make to this list. I'm currently at a staggeringly high 32(!) creatures. I could probably drop this number, and get some number of Zealous Persecution, some number of Fatal Push, and maybe an extra land in place of one of those creatures. The deck feels really solid right now, and those are about the only changes I can think of. Vial gives us lots of nice tricks with Sculler, Cryptbreaker and our lords, and Relentless Dead and Cryptbreaker allow us to grind out card advantage. Thanks for all the positive replies so far!
@BACE: looks good. One thing i don't like is collective brutality main deck. I've played the deck a lot before and pre gitaxian probe ban it was was great, but i've come to relegate it to the sideboard after the ban. On paper it seems always good but in reality it is kind of bad at everything. Still very valuable in some matchups so it deserves a spot in the 15 for burn and such but i strongly recommend a fatal push main deck instead.
@zombicrats: after some thought another reason to go for a split in sac outlets is pithing needle. Vs ensnaring bridge decks we may need the drain triggers to close out the game, and needle is a common card i see G2 and 3 in those matchups. Running one viscera seer + one cartel aristocrat gives us an out to that. Also i'd run a single viscera seer just to grab it with ranger of eos, which is looking like a great sideboard option vs grindy or prison decks, or vs burn to get burrenton forge-tender to close the game.
It makes me a bit sad to cut Wayward Servant since it gave the deck a direct life drain angle unique among Aggro decks but overall the impact of the card is just too low until you have multiple Servants on the board and Diregraf Colossus pooping out tokens. If there were enough redundant drain effects and enablers I'd love to build around Servant but as it is I think it doesn't quite make the cut for now. Only last thing I'm still keen on is shaving a single Lord of the Accursed (IMO the weakest 3-drop) for the 21st land but otherwise it looks good to me.
It makes me a bit sad to cut Wayward Servant since it gave the deck a direct life drain angle unique among Aggro decks but overall the impact of the card is just too low until you have multiple Servants on the board and Diregraf Colossus pooping out tokens. If there were enough redundant drain effects and enablers I'd love to build around Servant but as it is I think it doesn't quite make the cut for now. Only last thing I'm still keen on is shaving a single Lord of the Accursed (IMO the weakest 3-drop) for the 21st land but otherwise it looks good to me.
I'd love to have more details on your testing. What list did you use? How many games did you play? against what decks? How many games did you win/lost?
You decide if I'm kidding.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I agree, I think having some zombie synergies for attrition value is good but ultimately we are either an aggro deck or an aristocrats deck. Now whether zombicrats is a better or worse version of aristocrats I'm not sure, as I'm in the aggro camp. But I certainly think that the attrition value of zombies makes for a resilient aggro deck, whether mono black or bw or bwx.
But right now is the worst moment to say «zombies by themselves will never be viable». I mean c'mon we just got a bunch of playables, you gotta try at least! Unless you have a crystal ball this claim is largely unjustified. Lets keep those comments for in a month or two, when we got to try things.
I'm not done playing with my Collected Company idea. The deck still has its most power at the 3-drop slot so I want to exploit that. If it means going into Abzan then I'll try it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
This has been tried a long time ago. You can see the discussions and conclusions we reached here somewhere on this thread. But i don't blame you for not digging into pages and pages, so the verdict was: no good.
The fact is nameless inversion was just such a bad card by itself. And this was before fatal push was printed, nothing justifies running a 2 mana removal spell that doesn't kill everything. Also haakon, stromgald scourge required way too much support, and has built-in conflicts: it is legendary and bad in multiple, you only want one. But you want to draw it often since you warped your whole deck around it. And for all that effort you get an very bad deck, just to have an engine that isn't even better than blasting station + gravecrawler, and that folds to the same hate. The card is cute with diregraf colossus but thats it.
I don't think anyone is saying zombie tribal isn't viable, We love zombies, that's why we're all here! Lol
And I would still call it a zombie deck if it had to have a few non-zombie creatures. As Torpf was.alluding, it's not zombicrats because of Cartel Aristocrats, it's Zombicrats because it plays a sac-drain game. If zombicrats ditches aristocrat AND becomes the best zombie based strategy then it would probably lose the moniker. But for now, I think it helps distinguish between go-wide, drain and aggro versions.
-Blasting Chamber machine gun is pretty good with Gravecrawler and kinda OK with Relentless Dead. Still having a hard time assessing Wayward Servant and the drain subtheme in general, mostly because there aren't enough pieces to make it consistent. How good Wayward Servant is really depends upon how slowly you can grind down the pace of the game while also keeping Servant on the board. The reward ceiling is high when everything works out but sometimes this just feels out of place in an otherwise competent beatdown deck. Needs more testing.
-Although Collective Brutality seemed attractive on first glance since it has a lot of utility and we can reduce the disadvantage of discard, it's hand-pick mode can't pluck out grave hate so I don't think it's worth the slot(s). I would still love to have access to some kind of looting effect, though, both as virtual card advantage for our deck but also to help assemble drain pieces and make that side plan more consistent.
-I like Diregraf Colossus when combined with Gravecrawler in general, and especially when you have Gravecrawler + Sac Outlet. 1 Mana / 0 cards for a 2/2 zombie token is a great rate. Other than Gravecrawler, though, we don't actually want our Zombies to be in the grave -- Geralf's Messenger and Relentless Dead are hopefully just there for a second before their recursion abilities resolve. It's too bad that if we're doing well in a game and don't have any zombies in the grave we have to play a somewhat fragile 2/2 for 3. Maybe I'm overthinking this, though? In matchups where you'd worry about playing a 2/2 for 3 you've probably already had a couple zombies bolted off anyways..? In any event, Colossus's token spawning ability definitely helps make Wayward Servant more viable. I am a little sad that Dark Salvation, CoCo, and Relentless Dead's X ability don't get you any extra Zombie tokens from Colossus, but maybe I'm getting greedy lol.
-Tidehollow Sculler seems ideal at 2, maybe 3 copies MB paired with 4-5x Inquisition/Thoughtseize. I'd keep the other 1-2 Scullers in the side, though.
-Stupid little thought: even though Wayward Servant dilutes the devotion theme by costing BW, when Gray Merchant enters the BF Servant's ability triggers and effectively makes up the devotion missed by the W in its cost. Gary is a bit weaker with a few BW zombies mixed in but I haven't dismissed him as a curve topper yet.
-Torpf's BW list seems like it's on the right track and I found myself making most of the same build decisions. I am also pretty curious to see what an Abzan CoCo zombie list would look like.
4 Binding Mummy
4 Death Baron
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lord of the Accursed
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Wayward Servant
2 Cryptbreaker
2 Dread Wanderer
Spells (8)
4 Aether Vial
3 Path to Exile
1 Collective Brutality
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
3 Godless Shrine
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Relentless Dead
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Cryptbreaker
1 Collective Brutality
A quick rundown: This deck is playing more of a tempo game, and doesn't care too much about using graveyard recursion. It helps us recover after a board wipe, but it isn't central to our gameplan. Vial allows us plenty of tricks, and lets us cheat on mana. Binding Mummy acts like Merrow Reejerey, allowing us to tap down opposing blockers when we want to swing, and to stop potential attacks thanks to vial. Servant also gives us some extra reach, and also works fairly well with vial. Colossus has also been great. Colossus gives us extra Mummy and Servant triggers, which can help speed us up. I originally had some number of Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek in the main, but as soon as someone mentioned that Sculler was a zombie, it seemed obviously better. Mutavault gives us extra attackers and blockers, and is great for getting just a little extra damage in. The sideboard is a variety of things. Brutality because it's really just a solid card. An extra Cryptbreaker, Lili, and some Relentless Dead to help if we need to grind. Relic to help hose graveyard strategies, and stony to deal with artifacts.
I'm excited to hear your thoughts. I think the new white zombies bring a lot of potential to the deck.
Vial definitely makes Binding Mummy playable, and instant speed Tidehollow Sculler is great, too. Vialing in Death Baron could be a game winner.
Here are a couple thoughts:
Unlike Merfolk, you aren't running 12 (!) cantrips, so your land count needs to be closer to 22+ to function reliably. Though not a cantrip, Cryptbreaker helps with card draw, but you only have 2 copies of him.. I would definitely run the full set of him and cut Dread Wanderer. Merfolk only runs 4x 1-drop creatures, Taxes lists run 0-4x. For your curve IMO you should pick one 1-drop creature, max. I'd start with 4x Cryptbreaker since you need to draw gas to feed Vial and you could add ~3x Relentless dead instead of Gravecrawler -- it sounds crazy since I've found Gravecrawler to be incredible but you can't do the gravecrawler machine-gun shenanigans anyways, and theoretically vial should free up more mana to pay for Relentless Dead's abilities. Just a thought. Whatever you do, pay attention to your curve and make sure you're getting full value out of Vial.
Merfolk runs 29 creatures. I think you could also shave down 3-4 creatures to work in that missing land and add one more disruption spell. 4x Path or Push, for instance. Maybe Push (with extra fetches) since you have fewer T1 plays without Gravecrawler, Push is better for your Tempo, and it's in your primary color, but Path is unconditional exiling so I could see either one working. Collective Brutality could be good (pitching late Vials sounds great) but you might also test 1x Dark Salvation since the tokens become increasingly valuable with more lords.
After a bunch of goldfishing and a handful of quick matches I'm currently here:
4x Cryptbreaker
4x Binding Mummy
2x Relentless Dead
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Wayward Servant
4x Death Baron
4x Diregraf Colossus
3x Lord of the Accursed
4x Aether Vial
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (2)
1x Sign in Blood
1x Dark Salvation
Land (21)
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Vault of the Archangel
I'm pretty happy with the numbers in the list so far, just tuning the manabase, deciding on Path vs Push, and testing a few things in the Dark Salvation flex slot. It seems significantly better than the Zombicrats version due to the added consistency and better utilization of the support bodies, so I will probably focus most of my testing on it.
I have to agree with what shelldell said; however my main concern is the inclusion of vial. Yes it would assist us in combat shenanigans and tempo plays; however in a very aggressive meta we are in now, I am worried about the loss of fuel. Like shelldell said our first step is to add more cryptbreakers; however I am worried: is that enough fuel? As a person who plays Slivers and Allies, I feel like I can afford to play vials not due to card draw, but thanks to Collected company. Since I am kinda new to MTG and have not memorized all the good cards in modern, I was wondering if we have anything in black or white to create a similar tempo in cards?
I've noticed you use the word aggro to define your deck, but i'm not sure what this means. If you mean attacking with creatures to win, that's just playing a "fair" deck, not aggro. I've looked at your list and i fail to see how it is "aggro". To me a true aggro deck is a deck that maximizes winning on turn 4 (or before) with damage/attacking. We can't even win on turn 4 by attacking/draining at all. All versions of zombies win by attacking, making us a fair deck, but i wouldn't call any of the decklists i've seen here "aggro". BACE's list is probably the closest to aggro because of all the lords and the aether vials to speed up damage.
EDIT: for people looking for card advantage, torpf has suggested ranger of eos some time ago. I think it could work out as maybe 2x, if you include a viscera seer you can get a lot of value. It has the advantage of grabbing burrenton forge-tender from the sideboard too.
I guess what I mean is that I want to start attacking on turn 2 and then using my mana every turn as efficiently as possible to continue advancing my board and/or pushing through damage rather than setting up combos or synergies. The reason I choose zombies over, say naya zoo, is because I like the added attrition once my resources run out. I hate the feeling of having no options going into the late game. This is why you will notice only 2ish hand disruption spells in my main deck.. they aren't really doing what I like, but the power level of these kind of cards when you are in black is too hard to ignore.
So for now i'd like to try one of these two lists:
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
planeswalkers: 2
2 liliana of the veil
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
2 cartel aristocrat
4 geralf's messenger
2 plague belcher
3 cavern of souls
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
Or
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
planeswalkers: 2
2 liliana of the veil
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
2 cartel aristocrat
4 diregraf colossus
2 death baron
3 cavern of souls
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
I think lili strengthens the attrition plan and completes the removal/discard package.
So the only difference between the two decks is the 3 drop zombie. The zombicrats version is focused on reach and more individually strong 3 drops, but it is more vulnerable to graveyard hate. The zombiecalypse list is more focused on going wide and less vulnerable to hate, but relies more on combat to «get there».
Here are some videos with that deck - http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13904
If Zombies had a Bloodghast equivalent it could really push the deck over the top imho, though Prized Amalgam is very close and should definetly be played.
3x Diregraf Captain
2x Diregraf Ghoul
3x Dread Wanderer
4x Geralf's Messenger
4x Gravecrawler
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Phyrexian Obliterator
4x Plague Belcher
3x Relentless Dead
3x Darkslick Shores
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
8x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
2x Mortarpod
4x Geth's Verdict
3x Countersquall
3x Drown in Sorrow
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Surgical Extraction
I think Plague Belcher is a real solid addition, and I think that maybe It's time to go GB and introduce collected company, abrupt decay and lotleth troll into the deck.
A few things to note:
I don't think you want the full 4 plague belcher, the card does come with a drawback. I've been playing spirits and one issue is getting 3 drop flooded. Curving out properly is very important aspect for these type of decks, your deck lacks quality 2 drops.
Also mortarpod is pretty bad, paying 2 for each sac is super clunky! The one and only reason i could see it being worth it is playing death baron instead of some other 3 drops. You see the one thing that makes mortarpod unique is it is worded in a way that makes the equipped creature deals the damage. This means if that creature has deathtouch, the effect will remember that, making it kill anything.
Geth's verdict is a strange choice. You usually want to target with your removal. Liliana of the veil's edict is fine because it can be repeated, and combined with her plus she can take over the game.
Phantasmal image is another strange choice. I can see the value, again, from playing spirits. Copying a lord or anything is sweet, but in spirit the hexproof negates the drawback. I just don't see it being that good since you get zero value copying your one drop, once image hits the grave it does nothing.
Phyrexian obliterator is ambitious, usually it goes with at least one copy of urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, because these two cavern of souls and the singleton island are gonna mess with your ability to cast it. Also obliterator is usually featured with eldritch evolution (which by the way i think is better than CoCo for zombies) or with gray merchant of asphodel. Your deck has none of that so i don't see the point of it.
Last your sideboard is also odd. What do you care so much about for running 4 leyline of sanctity (that you can't even cast if topdecked)? We aren't combo, we can take the discard spells. Also why so much graveyard hate, and why choose leyline of the void along surgical extraction, which both go super poorly together (can't surgical anything under leyline)?
So yes, if they printed another free recursive zombie that's as good as Bloodghast (probably won't make that mistake again lol) or at least more Gravecrawlers rather than than Dread Wanderers and they also print good looting abilities stapled onto efficiently-costed Zombies we could think about building around Amalgam. We'll see what Hour of Devastation brings! For now, though, I think that's probably a trap which would make us essentially a worse version of Dredge that's slower and with less payoff, and that we wouldn't gain enough relative to how much we'd soften ourselves to hate.
Re:Fourdogsinahorsesuit - Ace's observation are nearly spot on. My only dissent would be on Geth's Verdict - I think the card is fine in a list with nine 2 power 1-drops and 4 Fatal Push. It is especially strong with the new addition of another staple Menace zombie. I will repeat Ace's caution on the 3 drop glut in light of this though, you are likely wanting to add to the board on T2, not cast a Geth's Verdict, so I would look to count it as a T3 or later spell. My recommendations would be to drop Phantasmal Image all together, and reduce both the Geth's Verdict and Plague Belcher count to 3. One spell to consider in this place could be Vapor Snag. It could potentially provide you with some of what you are looking to gain from Geth's Verdict, while only costing 1 mana, meaning you can still add to the board and continue pressure on T2.
If you want a bunch of tokens you may as well go with Shadow of the Grave + Zombie Infestation. Throw out probably about 5-6 cards, get them back, throw them back out. Get 12 power over 6 bodies on turn 3. If you threw out Bloodghast or Gravecrawler you can get them back into the battlefield, then OMG if you tossed out Prized Amalgam it'll recur, and you have +20 power on turn 3!!!!
That scenario is impossible, but fun to think about.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
Looks good but i'd make the following tweaks:
committing to the full 12 one drops might be good, not a lot of tribal decks have that option so that might be a good angle, but you've got to take advantage of that more. In such a list i'd definitely run some lords, at least 2, maybe 4. Death baron seems like the best one, making combat a nightmare for your opponent (do you want to chump my deathtouch gravecrawler that will come back anyways?). You could cut a few removal for them. Maybe you want to splash blue for diregraf captain. Also compelling deterrence could be great with the lilianas!
Not having enough tokens is not an issue, i'd say the card is win more for sure.
4 Binding Mummy
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Death Baron
4 Diregraf Colossus
4 Gravecrawler
4 Lord of the Accursed
4 Relentless Dead
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Spells (4)
1 Collective Brutality
3 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
Lands (20)
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Godless Shrine
4 marsh Flats
2 Mutavault
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stony Silence
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Collective Brutality
I still have some tweaks I want to make to this list. I'm currently at a staggeringly high 32(!) creatures. I could probably drop this number, and get some number of Zealous Persecution, some number of Fatal Push, and maybe an extra land in place of one of those creatures. The deck feels really solid right now, and those are about the only changes I can think of. Vial gives us lots of nice tricks with Sculler, Cryptbreaker and our lords, and Relentless Dead and Cryptbreaker allow us to grind out card advantage. Thanks for all the positive replies so far!
@zombicrats: after some thought another reason to go for a split in sac outlets is pithing needle. Vs ensnaring bridge decks we may need the drain triggers to close out the game, and needle is a common card i see G2 and 3 in those matchups. Running one viscera seer + one cartel aristocrat gives us an out to that. Also i'd run a single viscera seer just to grab it with ranger of eos, which is looking like a great sideboard option vs grindy or prison decks, or vs burn to get burrenton forge-tender to close the game.
I'd love to have more details on your testing. What list did you use? How many games did you play? against what decks? How many games did you win/lost?