I feel kind of iffy on Ashiok, to be perfectly honest. Sure, he's a MD-able wincon that makes the deck not REQUIRE a transformational SB, but I'm not sure how I feel about him, even outside my preference for the Twin build. The one thing that kinda puts me off about him is the fact that he himself only wins if the opponent does absolutely nothing to handle him, he doesn't affect the board state right away (if at all), he doesn't really protect you apart from taking a few points of damage away from an attack, and unlike Fate, he allows them to draw into something to deal with him. Dropping him after the lock is .. well, either he wins (which is what you should have done regardless if the lock is airtight). I unno. Not really convinced in running him pre-board, but if he works, he works.
SO my wallet took a beating last week when I picked up most of the stuff I needed .. mainly the Twins and the lands were painful to get haha but now I can actually bring it to tournaments.. except I'm short a set of Gitaxian Probe and 2 copies of Serum Visions and none of the stores in the area have them in stock. So if anyone has any of those (but mainly it's the Visions that I'm looking for since they like don't exist around here) that they'd be willing to let go shoot me a message and we can work out some mail trade or something.
Also, just wanted to thank everyone participating for their contributions to the discussion and for your support to what I feel can be a very original and interesting deck in Modern.
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I'd expect it to be here within a week or so, and a couple days after that I'll do a lot of testing against various decks. I'll be sure to post some analysis when that time comes. I think this deck has a lot of potential.
Very nice catch. Ok. I like where this deck is heading more and more. Keep up the good work. Jace Beleren cant actually kill you either. So why not a few of him? Just as a draw effect. Kinda make this into a junk walker deck. They may get so distracted with your walkers that you can find the sweeper you need.
I tested my build recently. Just a few games against a Gruul aggro deck. I won all the games, my opponent kept rage quitting once the lock happened. This deck REALLY wants to go first, but Spell Snare is really good even when we play on the draw. Gitaxian Probe is great, it really allows you to know what to spend your counters on, if it's safe to tap out, etc. Wall of Omens was allstar in the aggro match up by the way.
I strongly considered Jace Beleren, but I never tested him. He could be good, but I think we already have enough draw, and I wouldn't want to tap out early game to play Jace, and mid to late game, he's going to be close to win more anyway.
Temple of Deceit is MVP, and thanks to Gitaxian Prove we can do a pseudo Visions on turn 1. I chosed Dismember instead of Smother because it can kill 1cmc dudes without losing the oportunity of T2 Snare. And I'd like to test Read the Bones instead of TfK but I think it's too much live loss.
@user_653518: I really like your deck a lot, you have great hand disruption, which means you constantly have information and you can ensure enchantment removal isn't an issue. You have a good permission suite also. My only problem is you have zero defenders and no ramp of any kind. Dismember is good, but I prefer Path To Exile. Drown in Sorrow is cute by the way. By the way, I like Think Twice more than Serum Visions, not just because of the instant speed, but after the lock, we can flash it back to draw from their deck, even if they cast it initially. Temple of Deceit is cool, not sure about MVP though, it's not a land we want to top draw mid game, we want as few lands to come in tapped as possible. It also can't come down for blue mana on turn one. This means if you are on the draw, unless you have another land that taps for blue, you can't Spell Snare their turn 2 play.
@lrmo: I feel you have to run counters or discard, otherwise you have no way to answer them blowing up Shared Fate, you also auto scoop to planeswalkers and have a terrible disadvantage in the burn match up. Not to mention, you can't battle counter magic. I'm fine with Arbor Elf, because even though it breaks the rule it isn't a win condition, however if you don't run into Shared Fate early, you basically lose. Carven Caryatid is a good defender, but you have no way to block or answer flying creatures. Something like turn 2 Bitterblossom would be a disaster or even a Vampire Nighthawk.
Temple of Deceit is MVP, and thanks to Gitaxian Prove we can do a pseudo Visions on turn 1. I chosed Dismember instead of Smother because it can kill 1cmc dudes without losing the oportunity of T2 Snare. And I'd like to test Read the Bones instead of TfK but I think it's too much live loss.
For the most part, I agree with HB on this one. UB Fate wants discards, counters, and removal, and your list hits all of them. What does your sideboard look like? Speaking of UB Fate sideboards, the recent unbanning of Bitterblossom means that if a deck can stick one against us, we pretty much auto-scoop as we cannot main enchantment destruction. One solution for that can be Illness in the Ranks. It blanks BB, as well as Twin, Lingering Souls, WB tokens (though be more wary here, as tokens are the major if not ONLY wincon), and any other deck that has an alternate token strategy. Another piece of removal in black which can be considered is Sudden Death which can pick off things and is nearly uncounterable.
While HB makes good points, the big picture is that Fate is NOT a deck that wants to power it out as soon as possible. For all intents and purposes, consider Fate a one-card combo, and play the first half of the game (pre-Fate) like a combo - we do NOT want to play it blindly to be absolutely wiped out. You have no ways of obtaining information about their hand, which means that you risk playing Fate into a hand full of threats. You have zero removal, meaning that you cannot deal with anything that is "stranded" in their hand when you drop Fate, and you have no ways of removing anything that comes down before Fate.
To fix: One of your creatures can easily become Gitaxian Probe. For 1 mana (or even for "free"), it gives you information about their hand, and draws you a card. For removal, Dismember is a colorless option.
HB, how has Spell Snare been for you? I'm thinking of sticking 2 or so in my build.
Also, I intend to go to a small shop tourney on Saturday with my UR Fate-Twin build. Following that, I will make edits to OP. If you'd like (or at least wouldn't mind) your latest list in the Sample Lists section, please let me know and I'll make the appropriate changes happen.
Thanks again to everyone for keeping this deck in mind, discussing, testing, and making this happen!
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Thank you for the feedback. You both are right. I'm not used to playing control, so I was playing what I know. But my current UG build doesn't have enough answers. I'll tweak it some more with your suggestions.
Is there room for Silence? Dropping it at the beginning of your turn makes it a lot easier to get a Fate down, and it's not worthless early game to basically skip their turn. And once you have the lock on, the best they can do with it is hold you off by a turn.
I certainly wouldn't mind for my version to be in the primer. As for Spell Snare, it's very important, especially if we are on the draw. Otherwise we can't answer turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, etc. Spell Snare stops all the Ravnica Charms, and it counters Mana Leak for one mana. Even outside of turn 2, it allows us to do some cool plays. For instance, if we have 3 mana open, we can counter their Ash Zealot on their turn, and still be able to Think Twice at the end of their turn which we can't do with mana leak.
I understand the hand disruption is important, but I just want to make the case again for why White is so important for this deck: Path To Exile is an all star, because it eliminates reoccurring threats like Gravecrawler, Kitchen Finks, Bloodghast, Kor Spiritdancer with totem armor and other creatures that would otherwise be a nightmare for this deck. Path To Exile requires us to only keep one land open for removal, which is a lot easier than keeping 2 or 3 open or having to pay 4 life to Dismember. Wall of Omens is probably the best creature this deck can offer. Not an offensive threat, but replaces itself and laughs at so many staples in the format, Goblin Guide, early Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks and basically anything Zoo runs also (including Wild Nactl and Kird Ape). This is also only 2 mana, which means it's easier to cast it and keep countermagic up (Carven Caryatid can't do this). Supreme Verdict is an excellent boardwipe, because they can't stop it. There are games where I'll cast Shared Fate even when they have 3 or 4 creatures on board, and just wipe the next turn. Damnation is good, but considering we are running nearly a dozen counters, we can't rely on resolving Damnation after Shared Fate. Azorius Charm is so versatile here. If they have a threat on the board after we resolve Shared Fate, we can force them to put it on the top of their deck and then play it next turn. That's a huge deal. This card also cantrips, and running several draw spells is very important to ensure we get to Shared Fate.
This isn't to say black isn't good, because the hand disruption is excellent. But I don't know if it's absolutely necessary if we run enough countermagic. But aside from the and disruption, white does everything black does but better. Green doesn't offer anything except for speed, which really doesn't matter (and Feldwar Stone/Mind Stone offer that in any color). Red offers good removal, and Izzet Charm which is very strong. But frankly I think Path To Exile is better than Flame Slash, and Supreme Verdict is better than Volcanic Fallout.
I'm considering trying out an esper build, but I don't know if it makes sense to splash a color just for Inquisition of Kozilek. With Azorius colors, I'm running only 20 lands, which seems low, but considering all the draw we have, it's actually quite consistent. However, I feel running 3 colors requires you to run 22+ lands, and that means less spells.
Silence could be really good, I don't know if I like it in the main board, but I could see it in the sideboard. Speaking of sideboard, another great thing about white is it offers Rest in Peace along with Stony Silence and other sideboard staples that are great for combo and control decks.
How do people feel about Talisman of Progress? I know Mind Stone is fantastic because later when we are mana starved or desperate for an answer we can draw answers (or win conditions from our opponents decks). But being able to produce colored mana with Talisman of Progress seems like it could be big. On turn 2, we could play Talisman of Progress, and still be able to Spell Snare their turn 2 play which is really tempting.
So how do you guys actually play the Shared Fate effect in Cockatrice? I'd like to at least test this with some friends but I don't know how to give each other cards off the top of our library face down.
That's a good question, I play paper magic, so I wouldn't know. I would imagine in many cases, if there's no board presence on their side, they'd just scoop. I suppose for the rest of the game, you would just reveal to each other what you've drawn, and do some half-assed attempt at playing from each other's hands.
I like really like the idea of this deck. I have a card suggestion that I haven't seen in this thread yet. I'd also like to comment on certain cards like Tel-Jilad Stylus
Red: Flash Slash - Seems pretty good Pyroclasm - Would be good or bad depending on the meta. Currently with zoo running X/3s I think that Firespout/Anger the Gods / Supreme Verdict would work better Faithless Looting - Decent before Fate and much better after fate. Flashback cards are goign to be really strong in this deck. Speaking of Flashback.... Burning Oil - Can act as double removal while you set up. Will be almost useless for your opponent when he gets it and will only get to use it once.
White Wall of Omens - A good early creature Path to Exile - Good removal for the combo decks especially
Blue Think Twice - Powerful draw in this deck Mana Leak - Powerful early for you, easy to play around late game
Gold Supreme Verdict - The best wrath now unless regen becomes popular Izzet Charm - A nice swiss army knife
Cards I haven't seen discussed yet Azorius Charm - Good stall early game, can be cycled if not needed. If your opponent uses it when you use his creatures, you can just draw the creature again next turn Hallowed Burial - Removal that dodges all recursion. You will be able to redraw the creatures to win with later in the game Lapse of Certainty - A bad version of Memory Laspe Nightmare Void - Reuseable Discard. Your opponents can use it once if they draw it, but if they do, you can use it over and over Tel-Jilad Stylus - This card is the only card in Modern that only YOU can use to remove shared fate, but not your opponent. Once the decks are all exiled, use this to remove the shared fate before your opponent draws and deck him. If your opponent draws this he can stall you. If you have more than one in your deck, if you have one before fate, you can remove HIS Stylus.
If you run Stylus, you can eliminate the problem of your opponent sideboarding out all his win conditions. If he does that you can still win with stylus.
Howerever, if you only have 1 stylus and your opponent never play a stylus, he will be able to play the same shared fate over and over.
There are ways around this however:
-Somehow exile the top card(s) or your library
-Somehow mill yourself (Dredge?, Jace? Nephalia Drownyard?)
Does anyone think Stylus could be mainboard or sideboard material?
I don't understand what you are talking about with the Tel-Jilad Stylus combo, can you explain it again, maybe elaborate a little more. I especially don't understand this "Once the decks are all exiled, use this to remove the shared fate before your opponent draws and deck him."
1) Play Shared Fate while you have a stylus in hand or play
2) Wait until you have drawn your opponent's deck and his library is empty
3) If your opponent didn't play a Shared Fate or Stylus of yours then continue
4) Use Tel-Jilad Stylus to put Shared Fate on the bottom of your deck.
5) Shared Fate is no longer in play so when your opponent has to draw for their turn, they lose
This is great when it works, but that won't be the case. You can also use it to put any permanent of yours that they draw back on the bottom of your deck. If your opponent uses it on you, he can use it on the permanents you stole from him, but he can't get rid of your Shared Fate or Stylus with it no matter what (YOU own the cards).
If your opponent puts out extra Shared Fates to counter this then the Stylus won't be able to win on its own. However, with the help of a dredge card (Nightmare Void) or Repeatable Mill Card (Nephalia Drownyard) under your control you can mill the Shared Fates away permanently.
Your opponent can also use the stylus to tuck things and mill them, but he can't tuck any Stylus, Shared Fate, or drownyard, but you can so you can tuck his stylus and mill it away until he has none.
Basically, if you have a Stylus and a Drownyard/Nightmare Void when you do Shared Fate, you are able to win the game painfully slowly regardless of what your opponent draws from your deck and without using his cards to win. Make sure he has no cards in his hand that can interact and it's over.
Here's the more realistic version:
1) Start Shared Fate with a Tel-Jilad Stylus and Nephalia Drownyard in hand or play
2) Ensure their hand has nothing important as soon as possible
2a) Use drownyard to mill your own deck out
2b) If you opponent plays any of your permanents (Especially drownyard, Stylus, Shared Fate) tuck them with Stylus
3) Once YOU have no library, tuck any stylus, drownyard, or extra shared fates your opponent played and mill them before he can redraw them
4) Wait for you OPPONENTS LIBRARY to run out (from you drawing it all)
5) Once there is only 1 Shared Fate in play, only you control a stylus, and your opponent library is empty, tuck the Shared Fate on your turn (after draw step)
6) Your opponent has to draw first and they lose
If I made any big mistakes in this post, let me know so I can edit them out.
So how do you guys actually play the Shared Fate effect in Cockatrice? I'd like to at least test this with some friends but I don't know how to give each other cards off the top of our library face down.
The way you do that is instead of drawing cards, you "play" cards face-down by Shift+dragging them from your deck onto your opponent's field (or onto yours and then giving it to them). Once you right-click on a face-down card, you may peek at it or flip it faceup to play it. These are Windows directions, I don't know the Cockatrice shortcuts or menus on a Mac.
WARNING - this deck is very very trolly and expect to either lose or not finish matches. I've tried testing my Twin variant on Cockatrice, and the matches where I lock them out game 1 they quit 2 turns into the lock - and I don't just mean "aight you got me g2?" quit, I mean like kick/leave game entirely quit, so be wary. Like Norin.
I like really like the idea of this deck. I have a card suggestion that I haven't seen in this thread yet. I'd also like to comment on certain cards like Tel-Jilad Stylus
Red: Flash Slash - Seems pretty good Pyroclasm - Would be good or bad depending on the meta. Currently with zoo running X/3s I think that Firespout/Anger the Gods / Supreme Verdict would work better Faithless Looting - Decent before Fate and much better after fate. Flashback cards are goign to be really strong in this deck. Speaking of Flashback.... Burning Oil - Can act as double removal while you set up. Will be almost useless for your opponent when he gets it and will only get to use it once.
White Wall of Omens - A good early creature Path to Exile - Good removal for the combo decks especially
Blue Think Twice - Powerful draw in this deck Mana Leak - Powerful early for you, easy to play around late game
Gold Supreme Verdict - The best wrath now unless regen becomes popular Izzet Charm - A nice swiss army knife
Cards I haven't seen discussed yet Azorius Charm - Good stall early game, can be cycled if not needed. If your opponent uses it when you use his creatures, you can just draw the creature again next turn Hallowed Burial - Removal that dodges all recursion. You will be able to redraw the creatures to win with later in the game Lapse of Certainty - A bad version of Memory Laspe Nightmare Void - Reuseable Discard. Your opponents can use it once if they draw it, but if they do, you can use it over and over Tel-Jilad Stylus - This card is the only card in Modern that only YOU can use to remove shared fate, but not your opponent. Once the decks are all exiled, use this to remove the shared fate before your opponent draws and deck him. If your opponent draws this he can stall you. If you have more than one in your deck, if you have one before fate, you can remove HIS Stylus.
If you run Stylus, you can eliminate the problem of your opponent sideboarding out all his win conditions. If he does that you can still win with stylus.
Howerever, if you only have 1 stylus and your opponent never play a stylus, he will be able to play the same shared fate over and over.
There are ways around this however:
-Somehow exile the top card(s) or your library
-Somehow mill yourself (Dredge?, Jace? Nephalia Drownyard?)
Does anyone think Stylus could be mainboard or sideboard material?
Honor has indeed discussed the versatility of Azorius Charm. As for the Stylus, which is in my humble opinion the most interesting card on that list. I don't think it has much value in the main, since waiting to deck out Game 1 would take a ridiculously long time and using their own wincons is likely a much safer and faster alternative.
It does, however, make for an interesting inclusion to solve the "What if they board out their win conditions?" issue, but it DOES have the opportunity to backfire spectacularly if they do NOT and you board it in - then they draw it and start denying you any wincons you may use from them. A cool trick, but be careful with it.
I don't understand what you are talking about with the Tel-Jilad Stylus combo, can you explain it again, maybe elaborate a little more. I especially don't understand this "Once the decks are all exiled, use this to remove the shared fate before your opponent draws and deck him."
Shared Fate replaces draws - "If a player would draw a card ... instead ..." - which means that should the players draw out all the cards in their libraries, no one would die to drawing from empty deck. Since the stylus can only hit perms you own, you use it to stick your own Shared Fate on the bottom when your opponent has an empty deck to deny him the replacement, have him draw from an empty library and lose.
On an unrelated note, since I am hanging out with the lady friend most of Friday and half of Saturday and my parents hate Magic, I'll be slowly but surely working on turning OP into more of a primer. Perhaps eventually I can ask for a nice pretty banner and everything, but the content has to be there first!
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Honor has indeed discussed the versatility of Azorius Charm. As for the Stylus, which is in my humble opinion the most interesting card on that list. I don't think it has much value in the main, since waiting to deck out Game 1 would take a ridiculously long time and using their own wincons is likely a much safer and faster alternative.
It does, however, make for an interesting inclusion to solve the "What if they board out their win conditions?" issue, but it DOES have the opportunity to backfire spectacularly if they do NOT and you board it in - then they draw it and start denying you any wincons you may use from them. A cool trick, but be careful with it.
@DasNekros thanks for looking at it. If you draw 1 stylus it won't matter if they draw any, you still win easily. If you don't draw one yourself through, they would probably force a draw.
Tel-Jilad Stylus isn't good, it's totally useless before the lock, and we win when we lock. If you are really worried about them siding out their answers (many decks simply can't side out ALL of their answers by the way) then run creatures or win conditions in your sideboard.
I played several games at my LGS last night. The deck performed very well, I won every game except for one game, but the person I was playing had to leave, so I played very quickly which meant I didn't write down or utilize the information Gitaxian Probe provided. Most games I cast Shared Fate quite early, turn 4-6. Against blue I'm a little more cautious and I wait for them to tap out, or until I have back up counter magic in hand (unless I have a second Shared Fate in hand). Mind Stone is really good, and when you are having trouble digging for the combo or answers, the cantrip really does matter. With my list, I'm having no problems when it comes to mana fixing, in other words, I would recommend against playing with fetches and shocks, because they aren't necessary and they just bleed our life. As far as mulliganing goes, the deck is very consistent, usually I kept opening hand and I never mulled more than once.
I will say from playing more aggro than control, that black players may have a trouble against reoccuring creatures (wither, persist, etc.). Path To Exile is so good in this deck, and I'm considering trying out Oust. Thoughts on Oust?
Generally players tend to scoop and get salty, which honestly makes me feel a little sad, but whatever a win is a win.
Stylus looks too slow. You'd not want to commit that much time to a game. What happens after your opponent wins game 1? You cant hope to play out 2 stylus wins. So please dont go that route.
UW charm looks really good. Good stall early, and gets you a wincon post lock.
Jace looks really good. Additional CA will work wonders.
Oust looks like another charm in that it works well pre and post fate.
Think twice looks good. As with all the flashback, dredge cards.
Jace Beleren doesn't fit for this deck. If our opponent draws it post Shared Fate, they could potentially win via mill. That's unacceptable. The draw is good, but tapping out for 3 isn't smart for this deck. On turns 3 and 4 this deck wants to keep mana open to Mana Leak, Path to Exile, and sometimes Think Twice.
I really want to try Oust, but I don't know where to fit it in my build. I'm tempted to cut 1 or 2 Supreme Verdict, but it's a very important card and based on performance so far I'm very satisfied with my list.
One more thing. Rune Snag is very good here. Sometimes that card is a trap, but in a game when turns 2-5 are much more important than the late game, it's a strong card. I bet there's some other really underrated technology we are overlooking.
They cant win via mill. All they can possibly do is mill out their cards leaving you unable to exile. It still will replace the draw. You wont ever draw a card again. Im just throwing out ideas. Not playing this deck or anything.
I do have to say that oust and the charm look great as they starve the opponent of new cards. Griptide looks too expensice to work but a similar effect. Maybe a 1 of of the Inn card that had flashback?
Good point about Shared Fate actually preventing you from drawing, so I guess it doesn't mill. I still don't know how much better he is than Think Twice.
I played a game with my budget version of this deck today against mill and some weird interactions happened on MTGO. I ended up being able to mill him before he could mill me (since I used his cards against him), but because he wasn't the one drawing cards from his deck the whole time, he never actually lost. So, about 16 turns passed by and then I was out of cards. During that time I seemed to be drawing cards out of nowhere (his deck was milled but I was still getting cards I had not seen or played), which was very odd.
Just letting you all know in case you play this on MTGO against a mill deck. It was really funny to me, and eventually the other player conceded once I wrathed the board of his few beaters.
I played some games against a Soul Sisters deck today. I won the set, but at times it was tricky because my opponent ran like 3-4 copies Oblivion Ring. The deck has enough card draw where I managed to draw a second Shared Fate if one were to get hit. Most of his creatures I let resolve. I saved my counters for Chalice of Life, Angelic Destiny and Ajani's Pridemate. Path To Exile was very helpful, because my opponent ran Immortal Servitude. The can't be countered clause of Supreme Verdict is very important after the lock.
My opponent didn't scoop, we played the games through, which were longer than I anticipated, but most games I ended up winning with Chalice of Death or Angelic Destiny on Soul Warden. After the lock, a lot of the game is draw go. Or attempting to play something of theirs, and it gets countered. There was a point where my opponent was smart enough to hold on to a Chalice of Life and then cast it after I resolved Shared Fate, he got very close to flipping it too but I got lucky and top drew an Oblivion Ring 1 or 2 turns before it was too late.
I also played against a mill control deck with an outcome that was literally a stalemate. Somehow he resolved a Jace Beleren which ended up milling his entire library (he ultimate abilitied twice) which prevented me from drawing a win condition. Eventually he cycled through my deck during the lock, and he had no answers, so we called it a draw. I probably could have spun that game differently in hindsight though.
It's certainly a different deck. I still think 20 lands might be a little low, but I have no idea what to cut. I really love everything now. I enjoy playing this deck, the versatility Path To Exile brings to the table (ramp or removal) along with other cards that have multiple functions like Mind Stone. I love how post lock we can flashback our Think Twice if they use it, etc.
I feel kind of iffy on Ashiok, to be perfectly honest. Sure, he's a MD-able wincon that makes the deck not REQUIRE a transformational SB, but I'm not sure how I feel about him, even outside my preference for the Twin build. The one thing that kinda puts me off about him is the fact that he himself only wins if the opponent does absolutely nothing to handle him, he doesn't affect the board state right away (if at all), he doesn't really protect you apart from taking a few points of damage away from an attack, and unlike Fate, he allows them to draw into something to deal with him. Dropping him after the lock is .. well, either he wins (which is what you should have done regardless if the lock is airtight). I unno. Not really convinced in running him pre-board, but if he works, he works.
SO my wallet took a beating last week when I picked up most of the stuff I needed .. mainly the Twins and the lands were painful to get haha but now I can actually bring it to tournaments.. except I'm short a set of Gitaxian Probe and 2 copies of Serum Visions and none of the stores in the area have them in stock. So if anyone has any of those (but mainly it's the Visions that I'm looking for since they like don't exist around here) that they'd be willing to let go shoot me a message and we can work out some mail trade or something.
Also, just wanted to thank everyone participating for their contributions to the discussion and for your support to what I feel can be a very original and interesting deck in Modern.
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Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
4x Shared Fate
4x Mana Leak
4x Rune Snag
2x Spell Snare
4x Path to Exile
4x Supreme Verdict
2x Azorius Charm
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Wall of Omens
4x Mind Stone
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Seachrome Coast
6x Island
4x Plains
2x Exotic Orchard
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I strongly considered Jace Beleren, but I never tested him. He could be good, but I think we already have enough draw, and I wouldn't want to tap out early game to play Jace, and mid to late game, he's going to be close to win more anyway.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
4x Dismember
4x Mana Leak
4x Spell Snare
4x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Drown in Sorrow
4x Serum Visions
4x Temple of Deceit
4x Watery Grave
5x Island
3x Swamp
Temple of Deceit is MVP, and thanks to Gitaxian Prove we can do a pseudo Visions on turn 1. I chosed Dismember instead of Smother because it can kill 1cmc dudes without losing the oportunity of T2 Snare. And I'd like to test Read the Bones instead of TfK but I think it's too much live loss.
It violates 1 rule by having a creature without defender. Namely Arbor Elf. But the guy synergies with Utopia Sprawl so well.
4 Harmonize
1 Concentrate
4 Manamorphose
4 Bonded Fetch
4 Carven Caryatid
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Wall of Roots
4 Arbor Elf
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Shared Fate
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Breeding Pool
9 Forest
6 Island
@lrmo: I feel you have to run counters or discard, otherwise you have no way to answer them blowing up Shared Fate, you also auto scoop to planeswalkers and have a terrible disadvantage in the burn match up. Not to mention, you can't battle counter magic. I'm fine with Arbor Elf, because even though it breaks the rule it isn't a win condition, however if you don't run into Shared Fate early, you basically lose. Carven Caryatid is a good defender, but you have no way to block or answer flying creatures. Something like turn 2 Bitterblossom would be a disaster or even a Vampire Nighthawk.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
For the most part, I agree with HB on this one. UB Fate wants discards, counters, and removal, and your list hits all of them. What does your sideboard look like? Speaking of UB Fate sideboards, the recent unbanning of Bitterblossom means that if a deck can stick one against us, we pretty much auto-scoop as we cannot main enchantment destruction. One solution for that can be Illness in the Ranks. It blanks BB, as well as Twin, Lingering Souls, WB tokens (though be more wary here, as tokens are the major if not ONLY wincon), and any other deck that has an alternate token strategy. Another piece of removal in black which can be considered is Sudden Death which can pick off things and is nearly uncounterable.
While HB makes good points, the big picture is that Fate is NOT a deck that wants to power it out as soon as possible. For all intents and purposes, consider Fate a one-card combo, and play the first half of the game (pre-Fate) like a combo - we do NOT want to play it blindly to be absolutely wiped out. You have no ways of obtaining information about their hand, which means that you risk playing Fate into a hand full of threats. You have zero removal, meaning that you cannot deal with anything that is "stranded" in their hand when you drop Fate, and you have no ways of removing anything that comes down before Fate.
To fix: One of your creatures can easily become Gitaxian Probe. For 1 mana (or even for "free"), it gives you information about their hand, and draws you a card. For removal, Dismember is a colorless option.
HB, how has Spell Snare been for you? I'm thinking of sticking 2 or so in my build.
Also, I intend to go to a small shop tourney on Saturday with my UR Fate-Twin build. Following that, I will make edits to OP. If you'd like (or at least wouldn't mind) your latest list in the Sample Lists section, please let me know and I'll make the appropriate changes happen.
Thanks again to everyone for keeping this deck in mind, discussing, testing, and making this happen!
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
Thank you for the feedback. You both are right. I'm not used to playing control, so I was playing what I know. But my current UG build doesn't have enough answers. I'll tweak it some more with your suggestions.
I understand the hand disruption is important, but I just want to make the case again for why White is so important for this deck:
Path To Exile is an all star, because it eliminates reoccurring threats like Gravecrawler, Kitchen Finks, Bloodghast, Kor Spiritdancer with totem armor and other creatures that would otherwise be a nightmare for this deck. Path To Exile requires us to only keep one land open for removal, which is a lot easier than keeping 2 or 3 open or having to pay 4 life to Dismember.
Wall of Omens is probably the best creature this deck can offer. Not an offensive threat, but replaces itself and laughs at so many staples in the format, Goblin Guide, early Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks and basically anything Zoo runs also (including Wild Nactl and Kird Ape). This is also only 2 mana, which means it's easier to cast it and keep countermagic up (Carven Caryatid can't do this).
Supreme Verdict is an excellent boardwipe, because they can't stop it. There are games where I'll cast Shared Fate even when they have 3 or 4 creatures on board, and just wipe the next turn. Damnation is good, but considering we are running nearly a dozen counters, we can't rely on resolving Damnation after Shared Fate.
Azorius Charm is so versatile here. If they have a threat on the board after we resolve Shared Fate, we can force them to put it on the top of their deck and then play it next turn. That's a huge deal. This card also cantrips, and running several draw spells is very important to ensure we get to Shared Fate.
This isn't to say black isn't good, because the hand disruption is excellent. But I don't know if it's absolutely necessary if we run enough countermagic. But aside from the and disruption, white does everything black does but better. Green doesn't offer anything except for speed, which really doesn't matter (and Feldwar Stone/Mind Stone offer that in any color). Red offers good removal, and Izzet Charm which is very strong. But frankly I think Path To Exile is better than Flame Slash, and Supreme Verdict is better than Volcanic Fallout.
I'm considering trying out an esper build, but I don't know if it makes sense to splash a color just for Inquisition of Kozilek. With Azorius colors, I'm running only 20 lands, which seems low, but considering all the draw we have, it's actually quite consistent. However, I feel running 3 colors requires you to run 22+ lands, and that means less spells.
Silence could be really good, I don't know if I like it in the main board, but I could see it in the sideboard. Speaking of sideboard, another great thing about white is it offers Rest in Peace along with Stony Silence and other sideboard staples that are great for combo and control decks.
How do people feel about Talisman of Progress? I know Mind Stone is fantastic because later when we are mana starved or desperate for an answer we can draw answers (or win conditions from our opponents decks). But being able to produce colored mana with Talisman of Progress seems like it could be big. On turn 2, we could play Talisman of Progress, and still be able to Spell Snare their turn 2 play which is really tempting.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Red:
Flash Slash - Seems pretty good
Pyroclasm - Would be good or bad depending on the meta. Currently with zoo running X/3s I think that Firespout/Anger the Gods / Supreme Verdict would work better
Faithless Looting - Decent before Fate and much better after fate. Flashback cards are goign to be really strong in this deck. Speaking of Flashback....
Burning Oil - Can act as double removal while you set up. Will be almost useless for your opponent when he gets it and will only get to use it once.
White
Wall of Omens - A good early creature
Path to Exile - Good removal for the combo decks especially
Blue
Think Twice - Powerful draw in this deck
Mana Leak - Powerful early for you, easy to play around late game
Gold
Supreme Verdict - The best wrath now unless regen becomes popular
Izzet Charm - A nice swiss army knife
Cards I haven't seen discussed yet
Azorius Charm - Good stall early game, can be cycled if not needed. If your opponent uses it when you use his creatures, you can just draw the creature again next turn
Hallowed Burial - Removal that dodges all recursion. You will be able to redraw the creatures to win with later in the game
Lapse of Certainty - A bad version of Memory Laspe
Nightmare Void - Reuseable Discard. Your opponents can use it once if they draw it, but if they do, you can use it over and over
Tel-Jilad Stylus - This card is the only card in Modern that only YOU can use to remove shared fate, but not your opponent. Once the decks are all exiled, use this to remove the shared fate before your opponent draws and deck him. If your opponent draws this he can stall you. If you have more than one in your deck, if you have one before fate, you can remove HIS Stylus.
If you run Stylus, you can eliminate the problem of your opponent sideboarding out all his win conditions. If he does that you can still win with stylus.
Howerever, if you only have 1 stylus and your opponent never play a stylus, he will be able to play the same shared fate over and over.
There are ways around this however:
-Somehow exile the top card(s) or your library
-Somehow mill yourself (Dredge?, Jace? Nephalia Drownyard?)
Does anyone think Stylus could be mainboard or sideboard material?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
1) Play Shared Fate while you have a stylus in hand or play
2) Wait until you have drawn your opponent's deck and his library is empty
3) If your opponent didn't play a Shared Fate or Stylus of yours then continue
4) Use Tel-Jilad Stylus to put Shared Fate on the bottom of your deck.
5) Shared Fate is no longer in play so when your opponent has to draw for their turn, they lose
This is great when it works, but that won't be the case. You can also use it to put any permanent of yours that they draw back on the bottom of your deck. If your opponent uses it on you, he can use it on the permanents you stole from him, but he can't get rid of your Shared Fate or Stylus with it no matter what (YOU own the cards).
If your opponent puts out extra Shared Fates to counter this then the Stylus won't be able to win on its own. However, with the help of a dredge card (Nightmare Void) or Repeatable Mill Card (Nephalia Drownyard) under your control you can mill the Shared Fates away permanently.
Your opponent can also use the stylus to tuck things and mill them, but he can't tuck any Stylus, Shared Fate, or drownyard, but you can so you can tuck his stylus and mill it away until he has none.
Basically, if you have a Stylus and a Drownyard/Nightmare Void when you do Shared Fate, you are able to win the game painfully slowly regardless of what your opponent draws from your deck and without using his cards to win. Make sure he has no cards in his hand that can interact and it's over.
Here's the more realistic version:
1) Start Shared Fate with a Tel-Jilad Stylus and Nephalia Drownyard in hand or play
2) Ensure their hand has nothing important as soon as possible
2a) Use drownyard to mill your own deck out
2b) If you opponent plays any of your permanents (Especially drownyard, Stylus, Shared Fate) tuck them with Stylus
3) Once YOU have no library, tuck any stylus, drownyard, or extra shared fates your opponent played and mill them before he can redraw them
4) Wait for you OPPONENTS LIBRARY to run out (from you drawing it all)
5) Once there is only 1 Shared Fate in play, only you control a stylus, and your opponent library is empty, tuck the Shared Fate on your turn (after draw step)
6) Your opponent has to draw first and they lose
If I made any big mistakes in this post, let me know so I can edit them out.
The way you do that is instead of drawing cards, you "play" cards face-down by Shift+dragging them from your deck onto your opponent's field (or onto yours and then giving it to them). Once you right-click on a face-down card, you may peek at it or flip it faceup to play it. These are Windows directions, I don't know the Cockatrice shortcuts or menus on a Mac.
WARNING - this deck is very very trolly and expect to either lose or not finish matches. I've tried testing my Twin variant on Cockatrice, and the matches where I lock them out game 1 they quit 2 turns into the lock - and I don't just mean "aight you got me g2?" quit, I mean like kick/leave game entirely quit, so be wary. Like Norin.
Honor has indeed discussed the versatility of Azorius Charm. As for the Stylus, which is in my humble opinion the most interesting card on that list. I don't think it has much value in the main, since waiting to deck out Game 1 would take a ridiculously long time and using their own wincons is likely a much safer and faster alternative.
It does, however, make for an interesting inclusion to solve the "What if they board out their win conditions?" issue, but it DOES have the opportunity to backfire spectacularly if they do NOT and you board it in - then they draw it and start denying you any wincons you may use from them. A cool trick, but be careful with it.
Shared Fate replaces draws - "If a player would draw a card ... instead ..." - which means that should the players draw out all the cards in their libraries, no one would die to drawing from empty deck. Since the stylus can only hit perms you own, you use it to stick your own Shared Fate on the bottom when your opponent has an empty deck to deny him the replacement, have him draw from an empty library and lose.
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On an unrelated note, since I am hanging out with the lady friend most of Friday and half of Saturday and my parents hate Magic, I'll be slowly but surely working on turning OP into more of a primer. Perhaps eventually I can ask for a nice pretty banner and everything, but the content has to be there first!
xMage: Jankmaster
Commander - Now Playing
WUBSen Triplets - "If you shake my hand, better count your fingersBUW RHomura, Human AscendantR RGBorborygmos EnragedGR URMelek, Izzet ParagonRU
Commander - Still Brewing
BRGGyrus, Waker of CorpsesGRB URSaheeli, the GiftedRU WRJor Kadeen, the PrevailerRW
@DasNekros thanks for looking at it. If you draw 1 stylus it won't matter if they draw any, you still win easily. If you don't draw one yourself through, they would probably force a draw.
I played several games at my LGS last night. The deck performed very well, I won every game except for one game, but the person I was playing had to leave, so I played very quickly which meant I didn't write down or utilize the information Gitaxian Probe provided. Most games I cast Shared Fate quite early, turn 4-6. Against blue I'm a little more cautious and I wait for them to tap out, or until I have back up counter magic in hand (unless I have a second Shared Fate in hand). Mind Stone is really good, and when you are having trouble digging for the combo or answers, the cantrip really does matter. With my list, I'm having no problems when it comes to mana fixing, in other words, I would recommend against playing with fetches and shocks, because they aren't necessary and they just bleed our life. As far as mulliganing goes, the deck is very consistent, usually I kept opening hand and I never mulled more than once.
I will say from playing more aggro than control, that black players may have a trouble against reoccuring creatures (wither, persist, etc.). Path To Exile is so good in this deck, and I'm considering trying out Oust. Thoughts on Oust?
Generally players tend to scoop and get salty, which honestly makes me feel a little sad, but whatever a win is a win.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
UW charm looks really good. Good stall early, and gets you a wincon post lock.
Jace looks really good. Additional CA will work wonders.
Oust looks like another charm in that it works well pre and post fate.
Think twice looks good. As with all the flashback, dredge cards.
I really want to try Oust, but I don't know where to fit it in my build. I'm tempted to cut 1 or 2 Supreme Verdict, but it's a very important card and based on performance so far I'm very satisfied with my list.
One more thing. Rune Snag is very good here. Sometimes that card is a trap, but in a game when turns 2-5 are much more important than the late game, it's a strong card. I bet there's some other really underrated technology we are overlooking.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I do have to say that oust and the charm look great as they starve the opponent of new cards. Griptide looks too expensice to work but a similar effect. Maybe a 1 of of the Inn card that had flashback?
What's the flashback card from Innistrad?
Could Wall of Denial/Fog Bank be any good?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Just letting you all know in case you play this on MTGO against a mill deck. It was really funny to me, and eventually the other player conceded once I wrathed the board of his few beaters.
My opponent didn't scoop, we played the games through, which were longer than I anticipated, but most games I ended up winning with Chalice of Death or Angelic Destiny on Soul Warden. After the lock, a lot of the game is draw go. Or attempting to play something of theirs, and it gets countered. There was a point where my opponent was smart enough to hold on to a Chalice of Life and then cast it after I resolved Shared Fate, he got very close to flipping it too but I got lucky and top drew an Oblivion Ring 1 or 2 turns before it was too late.
I also played against a mill control deck with an outcome that was literally a stalemate. Somehow he resolved a Jace Beleren which ended up milling his entire library (he ultimate abilitied twice) which prevented me from drawing a win condition. Eventually he cycled through my deck during the lock, and he had no answers, so we called it a draw. I probably could have spun that game differently in hindsight though.
It's certainly a different deck. I still think 20 lands might be a little low, but I have no idea what to cut. I really love everything now. I enjoy playing this deck, the versatility Path To Exile brings to the table (ramp or removal) along with other cards that have multiple functions like Mind Stone. I love how post lock we can flashback our Think Twice if they use it, etc.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate