Last year there was an article about a budget quasi land destruction control deck that was apparently surprisingly competitive.
The deck uses mana rocks to ramp into land control cards like Annex and Dream Leash to slow down and disrupt our opponent's base. Eventually the deck casts Wildfire leaving the opponent with nothing while we sacrifice their lands and still have mana rocks to work with. The deck's primary win condition is Frost Titan, which not only can lock down our opponent's lands further but it essentially has hexproof. The deck uses counters and removal to control the board until it is able to cast Wildfire. Here's the article:
I was curious about how to improve this deck. It seems fun, and pretty original. I have been goldfishing with it, and it's not quite consistent enough for a combo deck. Sometimes I can't find Frost Titan, sometimes I Wildfire too late and it doesn't disrupt the opponent enough. Obviously the mana base could use some work, but aside from the lands, how could deck be improved? What are your thoughts on the deck as is?
I don't like frost titan as a primary win-con... wurmcoil engine and/or batterskull would help more to stabilize. aetherling is literally impossible to deal with.
2-3 sowing salt could be backbreaking, as it thins the land in the deck and makes fetches worse.
izzet charm isn't a terrible choice... all the modes could be relevant in this deck.
I think running only 2 Frost Titan is cutting it pretty close. Freshsushi, your list is interesting, but how does it win? By Lightning Bolting to the face? or by hoping you draw one of two Frost Titan. I also feel 4 Wildfire is mandatory because it is necessary for the deck to go off. I'd consider even running a single Destructive Force as a 5th copy of Wildfire.
Boom // Bust + Darksteel Citadel is pretty cool. I think Telling Time could be very strong here to help dig to find the combo pieces and trash the ones we already have in our hand.
I'm not entirely set on the single Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, no way to find it, which means it could lead to mana inconsistency problems early game.
Sowing Salt is really good, but would be a meta call, because there are some modern environments and decks that don't run a lot of non basics, Soul Sisters, RDW, Merfolk, etc.
I think running only 2 Frost Titan is cutting it pretty close. Freshsushi, your list is interesting, but how does it win? By Lightning Bolting to the face? or by hoping you draw one of two Frost Titan. I also feel 4 Wildfire is mandatory because it is necessary for the deck to go off. I'd consider even running a single Destructive Force as a 5th copy of Wildfire.
Boom // Bust + Darksteel Citadel is pretty cool. I think Telling Time could be very strong here to help dig to find the combo pieces and trash the ones we already have in our hand.
I'm not entirely set on the single Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, no way to find it, which means it could lead to mana inconsistency problems early game.
Sowing Salt is really good, but would be a meta call, because there are some modern environments and decks that don't run a lot of non basics, Soul Sisters, RDW, Merfolk, etc.
Yeah I test ran the deck a couple times and noticed that it was pretty hard drawing the Titans. I'd probably have to take out the sowing salts for 2 Frost Giants and maybe an Electrolyze for the fourth Wildfire.
The deck really shined when I could get out a turn 3 Annex, followed by further Annexes, or Dream Leashes, but that was pretty dependent on a good hand. I was completely crushed by Liliana of the Veil whenever I couldn't stop her from resolving.
Interesting, I would really like to see what the community could do to this deck, it has potential, and when it can pull off a turn 5 Wildfire, it's very scary. Maybe more scary than Death Cloud.
Is there a particular reason that you're running so many Shivan Reefs with no Sulfur Falls? At first glance this doesn't seem like a deck that wants to trade life for speed, especially since it has more than enough typed lands to get untapped Reefs pretty consistently.
The standard deck that this deck comes from hand Boomerang and Remand to stem the early damage while you got the land theft online. I would think that Ral Zarek makes sense in this deck. He isn't affected by Wildfire. For that matter none of the PW's are affected so I would look into a few as better win con's.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I know I'm ditching blue for black but DRS makes things like turn 2 Stone Rain happen. I also like the lower converted mana cost that black gives the deck.
Chandra is great in a deck like this. Most of the opp's board is going to be smaller creatures as they are choked on mana. She can ping them of and her 0 can help you dig to Wildfire. I used the her ultimate one game and won off of Lighting Bolts to the face.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
When I first saw this deck the first thing I thought of was Spellheart Chimera. It will always be in Bolt range, but it has flying and trample which can get damage through better than Magnivore ever could. Here is an odd take on the deck that I would like to try out:
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Well I've been working on a deck like this for a couple weeks now. I'd rather post in this thread if it is getting more replies. Haha. Here's the list I'm working with right now:
I hadn't heard of the UR lists when I brewed up my list, so I've been working with the GR angle that I started with. The idea is to use the mana rocks to allow you to continue with a board state after a Wildfire or Bust. The land destruction is more of a tempo play to follow up a Titan so you can ride it to victory. I've been having decent success with it at the last few modern tournaments I took it to. It has a lot of nifty synergies to it and is surprisingly fast.
The deck seems alright, but its mana base is in need of revision. Needs more red. I'm also not sure how this deck can go 'surprisingly fast'. I goldfished it a couple times and got no action. I feel this deck could do with some mana dorks to fill out your curve a bit better; Birds of Paradise, Druid of the Anima and others are good choices. I'd also recommend Fauna Shaman to tutor into your titans and dragons faster. You could also run Mwonvuli Beast-Tracker as a singleton to fetch Prime Time.
Yeah, I started brewing a deck to emulate how I've seen Wildfire cards work in EDH as a tool to blow your opponents out of the game. I formulated my list prior to finding out about the UR lists unfortunately but I've been happy with the way mine has developed. Seeing as how this thread is sort of transforming into more of a "let's use Wildfire" discussion, I figured I'd contribute. I'd also like to preface that my list is just supposed to be a fairly competitive fun deck. I don't expect it to take down any high level REL tournaments. Just something different to play at FNM level tourneys.
Optimal plays... Well, hands that have a Borderpost and a Mox Opal are going to give you at least 5 mana on turn 3. If you have any other ramp, you can hit 6 on turn 3. So Plow Under on the play is pretty good. Primal Command there stalls them for a turn and tutors a Titan for your next turn. I'll keep just about any hand with those two cards and gas.
Turn 2 Boom with a Darksteel Citadel in play is pretty solid at buying some time against most decks.
Turn 2 Coldsteel Heart, Turn 3 Mind Stone + Talisman, Turn 4 Titan/Wildfire. Good on the play or draw.
I've never really had issues with the mana base outside of keeping a couple 1 land hands and then failing to find a second one. All of the mana rocks (other than Mind Stone) provide the right colors for you. You just need to be mindful of your future plays when naming a color with Coldsteel Heart. I used to run 16 lands, I added in a 5th Forest and cut a Coldsteel Heart because it is pretty critical to have at least 2 lands in an opening hand. I'm hoping that it ups the opener consistency without making me flood on lands late game but I haven't tested it yet.
I also specifically don't recommend running Mana Dorks in this deck. They will die in your Wildfire and then leave you just as far behind as your opponent. Which isn't what you want to be doing. Primal Command has been phenomenal for me. It gives you that turn of tempo and gets you a threat for the following turn. Plow Under is more potent though, so that's why I run the 4/3 split in its favor. Theoretically, you should only need one or two creatures to close out a game unless you are playing against a deck that has an abnormal amount of removal. Most people aren't prepared to handle a 6cmc 6/6 on turn 4. Haha.
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Boom // Bust is a good card but it is definitely not as good as Wildfire. It doesn't hit cards that your opponent has already played. So you have to fight what they've already resolved. Granted, that shouldn't be anything too threatening but it can be relevant. Wildfire will clear away almost any creature that your opponent has played up to that point as well as setting them back 3-4 lands. Which should leave you much further ahead if you're doing it right. I'd definitely run some Boom // Bust just for the off chance that you'll get the turn 2 LD but I'd always favor Wildfire. It's just more reliable and more useful.
But then, Capt. Nick spoke about green, which reminded me about a spell that is as good as Annex : Mwonvuli Acid-Moss! So why should we play blue at all? Look at that :
Note that some 1-of are there for testing as i can tutor them with primeval titan or primal command.
Compared to the U/R list, it has better acceleration (talisman!) and control on your opponent lands (plow under, primal command) but doesn't have as many cheap spells to slow the early game (remand, izzet charm), so i really don't know which one is better...
I like this version a lot actually, the only thing I don't like is the lack of card draw, but there's enough tutoring plus the Mind Stone to be fine.
Except he isn't repeatable. Which is exactly why you want Mastermind. That and Mastermind can put a Annex back into your hand prior to Wildfire, if needed. He can also reset Walkers.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
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The deck uses mana rocks to ramp into land control cards like Annex and Dream Leash to slow down and disrupt our opponent's base. Eventually the deck casts Wildfire leaving the opponent with nothing while we sacrifice their lands and still have mana rocks to work with. The deck's primary win condition is Frost Titan, which not only can lock down our opponent's lands further but it essentially has hexproof. The deck uses counters and removal to control the board until it is able to cast Wildfire. Here's the article:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/186
I was curious about how to improve this deck. It seems fun, and pretty original. I have been goldfishing with it, and it's not quite consistent enough for a combo deck. Sometimes I can't find Frost Titan, sometimes I Wildfire too late and it doesn't disrupt the opponent enough. Obviously the mana base could use some work, but aside from the lands, how could deck be improved? What are your thoughts on the deck as is?
4 Frost Titan
4 Wildfire
4 Mind Stone
4 Izzet Signe
4 Annex
4 Dream Leash
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mana Leak
4 Serum Visions
2 Pyroclasm
1 Repeal
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
8 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
I think Izzet Keyrune could be a (slow) alternate win condition after the Wildfire. Sleight of Hand is worth mentioning also.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
more pyroclasm/firespout/anger of the gods. 3 wildfire rather than 4.
I don't like frost titan as a primary win-con... wurmcoil engine and/or batterskull would help more to stabilize. aetherling is literally impossible to deal with.
2-3 sowing salt could be backbreaking, as it thins the land in the deck and makes fetches worse.
izzet charm isn't a terrible choice... all the modes could be relevant in this deck.
Snapcaster mage seems obvious, as does crucible of worlds...
It's an interesting deck, but looks, as you say, wildly inconsistent.
As the person above said, Sow Salts would be devastating.
I've messed around with your list and this is what I ended up with:
2 Frost Titan
3 Wildfire
4 Mind Stone
4 Izzet Signet
3 Electrolyze
4 Annex
4 Dream Leash
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
2 Think Twice
1 Pyroclasm
3 Remand
2 Sowing Salt
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
3 Mountain
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents
3 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
Boom // Bust + Darksteel Citadel is pretty cool. I think Telling Time could be very strong here to help dig to find the combo pieces and trash the ones we already have in our hand.
I'm not entirely set on the single Mikokoro, Center of the Sea, no way to find it, which means it could lead to mana inconsistency problems early game.
Sowing Salt is really good, but would be a meta call, because there are some modern environments and decks that don't run a lot of non basics, Soul Sisters, RDW, Merfolk, etc.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Yeah I test ran the deck a couple times and noticed that it was pretty hard drawing the Titans. I'd probably have to take out the sowing salts for 2 Frost Giants and maybe an Electrolyze for the fourth Wildfire.
The deck really shined when I could get out a turn 3 Annex, followed by further Annexes, or Dream Leashes, but that was pretty dependent on a good hand. I was completely crushed by Liliana of the Veil whenever I couldn't stop her from resolving.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
My suggestions:
Goblin Ruinblaster
Molten Rain
Zealous Conscripts
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I posted this in the Wildfire thread:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Molten Rain
3 Stone Rain
4 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grave Titan
2 Inferno Titan
3 Wildfire
3 Liliana of the Veil
I know I'm ditching blue for black but DRS makes things like turn 2 Stone Rain happen. I also like the lower converted mana cost that black gives the deck.
Chandra is great in a deck like this. Most of the opp's board is going to be smaller creatures as they are choked on mana. She can ping them of and her 0 can help you dig to Wildfire. I used the her ultimate one game and won off of Lighting Bolts to the face.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
When I first saw this deck the first thing I thought of was Spellheart Chimera. It will always be in Bolt range, but it has flying and trample which can get damage through better than Magnivore ever could. Here is an odd take on the deck that I would like to try out:
4 Spellheart Chimera
Mana Rocks
4 Izzet Keyrune
1 Simic Keyrune
Other Permanents
4 Ground Seal
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
Instant/Sorcs
3 Wildfire
4 Serum Visions
4 Electrolyze
3 Remand
1 Sowing Salt
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Mana Leak
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Boom // Bust
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Sulfur Falls
2 Mountain
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Sowing Salt
2 Boom // Bust
4 Relic of Progenitus
It is kind of ambitious in scope, but I am eager to test it.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I've seen someone play an ug enchantment deck using reality acid as a repeatable land destruction engine alongside Cloudstone Curio 3-4 years ago.
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
Vedalken Mastermind is the guy for that job.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
5 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Ramp: 18
3 Mox Opal
4 Mind Stone
4 Talisman of Impulse
3 Coldsteel Heart
4 Firewild Borderpost
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Inferno Titan
4 Primeval Titan
Land Tempo: 14
3 Primal Command
4 Plow Under
4 Wildfire
3 Boom // Bust
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyroclasm
1 Naturalize
2 Beast Within
2 Dismember
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Blood Moon
I hadn't heard of the UR lists when I brewed up my list, so I've been working with the GR angle that I started with. The idea is to use the mana rocks to allow you to continue with a board state after a Wildfire or Bust. The land destruction is more of a tempo play to follow up a Titan so you can ride it to victory. I've been having decent success with it at the last few modern tournaments I took it to. It has a lot of nifty synergies to it and is surprisingly fast.
Capt. Nick, can you talk about some optimal plays, hypothetical scenarios, goldfish examples, etc.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Optimal plays... Well, hands that have a Borderpost and a Mox Opal are going to give you at least 5 mana on turn 3. If you have any other ramp, you can hit 6 on turn 3. So Plow Under on the play is pretty good. Primal Command there stalls them for a turn and tutors a Titan for your next turn. I'll keep just about any hand with those two cards and gas.
Turn 2 Boom with a Darksteel Citadel in play is pretty solid at buying some time against most decks.
Turn 2 Coldsteel Heart, Turn 3 Mind Stone + Talisman, Turn 4 Titan/Wildfire. Good on the play or draw.
I've never really had issues with the mana base outside of keeping a couple 1 land hands and then failing to find a second one. All of the mana rocks (other than Mind Stone) provide the right colors for you. You just need to be mindful of your future plays when naming a color with Coldsteel Heart. I used to run 16 lands, I added in a 5th Forest and cut a Coldsteel Heart because it is pretty critical to have at least 2 lands in an opening hand. I'm hoping that it ups the opener consistency without making me flood on lands late game but I haven't tested it yet.
I also specifically don't recommend running Mana Dorks in this deck. They will die in your Wildfire and then leave you just as far behind as your opponent. Which isn't what you want to be doing. Primal Command has been phenomenal for me. It gives you that turn of tempo and gets you a threat for the following turn. Plow Under is more potent though, so that's why I run the 4/3 split in its favor. Theoretically, you should only need one or two creatures to close out a game unless you are playing against a deck that has an abnormal amount of removal. Most people aren't prepared to handle a 6cmc 6/6 on turn 4. Haha.
Anyhow I have updated my BR list to have a board.
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Molten Rain
3 Stone Rain
4 Avalanche Riders
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
2 Dragonskull Summit
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grave Titan
2 Inferno Titan
3 Wildfire
3 Liliana of the Veil
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Maybe something like this as a core:
4 Annex
4 Dream Leash
4 Wildfire
4 Frost Titan
4 Ral Zarek
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Copy Enchantment
Of course, the deck will also need some form of accelaration, so Mana rocks need to be in there somewhere.
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
I like this version a lot actually, the only thing I don't like is the lack of card draw, but there's enough tutoring plus the Mind Stone to be fine.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Actually, Venser, the Sojourner works so much better with Reality Acid.
Except he isn't repeatable. Which is exactly why you want Mastermind. That and Mastermind can put a Annex back into your hand prior to Wildfire, if needed. He can also reset Walkers.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77