I decided to try splashing for the Eldrazi over the red splash. I think the red splash is probably more powerful with red sweepers but I wanted access to TKS for a CMC 4 threat. waiting for batterskull or wurmcoil felt a little bit slow sometimes. The lack of lifelink makes it harder to close out vs some aggressive decks but the ability to come down 2 mana earlier makes a big difference.
Has anyone tried evolution charm as a one of. It's an instant so it turns on delirium a bit better and it can bring a creature back to hand. Giving a creature flying seems pretty pointless but there are a lot of flying creatures (Inkmoth, Vault Skirge) swinging for big damage right now. Getting a block for 1 turn could make the difference. It costs 2 which makes it pretty bad but it brings versatility.
I haven't thought of Evolution Charm recently. If you really are pushing for delirium, I'd go for Harrow. It brings a land and an instant together in the graveyard. Since you're into colorless, I might also suggest Hangarback Walker and, to a lesser extent, Pilgrim's Eye, as they are an artifact and a creature in one.
So I have been reading through the comments on this deck and have one glaring question...is this deck really that good? It seems awesome, but prior to stumbling across this forum, I've never seen or heard of this deck. Do you guys play this at any competitive events or is this just a pet deck that is fun to play (could be both I suppose).
For me personally it's a pet deck. I did take it foiled out to an SCG open and went 5-4. As for people talking about an instant to play for delirium I really have been liking a 2 of noxious revival. It can be nice to get a belcher back on top after its countered or another traverse late game.
So I have been reading through the comments on this deck and have one glaring question...is this deck really that good? It seems awesome, but prior to stumbling across this forum, I've never seen or heard of this deck. Do you guys play this at any competitive events or is this just a pet deck that is fun to play (could be both I suppose).
Short answer: this is not a good deck.
Longer answer: I've played this deck for fun and for Leagues on MTGO. It's quite decent in grindier, midrange metagames, but much worse in really aggressive and fast ones. You can also randomly beat fast decks with good draws, and you gain matchup percentage points over opponents who have no clue what you're doing. This makes it an FNM deck, an MTGO deck, and maybe a PPTQ deck at a smaller venue. I wouldn't bring it to a GP or SCG tournament, however.
Is there anyway to make it more of a competitive deck, or is it one of those "it is what it is" things? It seems like a blast to play. I watched some of the video's that JohnnoCox posted and it seems like it has potential. Personally, I have a friendly league that I play in and I assume this would fit right in.
Madcap Experiment seems neat but we would really have to choose our artifacts wisely, as well as include enough so we don't just die either.
Wurmcoil + Belcher seem like the best two to grab. We cannot consistently hit any single one artifact though so you will have to be happy with whichever you happen to hit. For instance, we could be in desperate need of Belcher but grab a Wurmcoil instead and vice versa. This isn't too bad, as both are great cards, but in certain situations it may cost you the game
I agree to a certain extent. Midgame to late game, Madcap Experiment gets worse. But our deck is built to assemble the combo early. A turn two or turn 3 Madcap means we have an early threat. Even the mere Batterskull is a beating. Also, I seem to lean on having more cards that represent our threats. Legacy Belcher has that similar approach (4 Belchers, 4 Burning Wishes, 3 Empty the Warrens). Since I'm fond of that, on a comfort perspective, I'm leaning with 4 Belchers, 4 Madcap Experiments, 4 Wurmcoil Engines.
Is there anyway to make it more of a competitive deck, or is it one of those "it is what it is" things? It seems like a blast to play. I watched some of the video's that JohnnoCox posted and it seems like it has potential. Personally, I have a friendly league that I play in and I assume this would fit right in.
The deck is not cutthroat like Bant Eldrazi, or resilient and consistent like Jund, if that's what you mean of competitive. Unfortunately, we cannot push this deck's competitiveness level further, as Wizards tend to avoid cards, or be careful designing cards, that will enable combo decks such as this deck. I say, RG is the most stable build. Kenshin has pointed out most about the deck. But on one note, I'm actually willing to risk playing this in a Grand Prix (more time to eat and wander around hahaha!).
I've been playing around with Madcap Experiment and I think the card is good for us, the biggest issue I have with it is that it doesn't work at all well with our current sideboard plan of artifacts as most of or sideboard cards are likely to be worse than having access to Belcher, Wurmcoil or Batterskull.
With that in mind, I am considering going for a more all in combo deck and just sidebaording in a less grindy way (i.e. less Pithing Needle more Nature's Claim)
With the list I currently use, I only have Relic of Progenitus as the only artifact in the sideboard. I may replace it with Leyline of the Void, since the only time Relic is effective is if it's in the opening hand against Dredge. I'm excited to try Madcap on paper!
Once cast possibility storm + memnite would get you into either emrakul or charbelcher, which would overall increase the consistency of casting the belcher. Memnite can be fetch with traverse the ulvenwald if you have delirium.
This however needs some solid tweaks since no other creatures can be added to the deck (so upping the lands for the loss of chancellor and replacing dorks by enchant/artifact acceleration only).
The combo is potent, but the creatures are so much vital to the functionality of the deck. Simian Spirit Guide, Chancellor of the Tangle are initial mana sources. Birds of Paradise, Sakura-Tribe Elder, Wall of Roots are our ramp cards. Arbor Elf makes the deck explode. Most important of these are the guide and the chancellor, as they allow us to play even without any land cards in hand. Given that we only have 7 lands (8 lands at most), the deck will be more inconsistent without them.
Also, another problem is that, for the combo to work, we need to immediately find Possibility Storm and Memnite, and make sure that Oldrakul is in the deck. That seems so much work in addition to our plan A (ramp early, find Belcher immediately). The only intersection of these two is that all the combo pieces can be fetched by Vessel of Nascency. Memnite being one-of, that makes it really hard for us to execute. We cannot always rely on having a delirium-enabled Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Another problem: Possibility Storm costs 3RR. We merely have one mountain. Altering the manabase to include the combo will make the numbers inconsistent. If we add another Stomping Ground, we dilute the effectivity of the other basic land searchers. If we add another Mountain, we increase the probability of mulligan due to not having an initial green source (in addition to the removal of Chancellor and Guide). Upping the land count makes more non-lethal Belcher activations, so it is out of the equation.
TL;DR, these are two very distinct combos and need two different decks. Possibility Storm's home I believe is a UR shell.
Can anyone post a recent list they've been running? As well as a list that may include Madcap Experiment? Just recently bought into the deck and I wanna see what others are doing with their 75. Thanks!
Whichever is effective on the two graveyard hate cards I will use. BB is hard to come by, but those Dredge and Living End players tend to have 3 cards go into their graveyard on a single turn (in case of Trap). If Leyline will be chosen, there's a need to increase it to at least 3, replacing 1 Choke or Nature's Claim.
On my phone at the moment so can't find it, but Frank Karsten made a table showing the expected damage you would take with X artifacts in your deck. From that I decided that I wanted to aim for 9 artifacts making Madcap average out at hitting for 5.
I don't know that we really want Platinum Empereon, I prefer more readily castable threats, so I'm packing 3 Wurmcoil Engine and 2 Myr Battlesphere to supplement my Belchers
Just built this deck on MTGO. It's pretty hilarious. Just wanted to thank all you people putting work into a fun modern deck for my inner Johnny.
I wanted to jam Madcap, so this is what I've been playing last couple days. Angel may be better as Emperion, and the relics in the board are 100% wrong, what non-artifact does everyone think would be best suited? Faerie Macabre? Surgical?
Ooh, I had forgotten all about Wheel. Good call, thank you. I should probably pick up blood moons too instead of the Sundering Titan/choke, but they're just so expensive anymore. I recently started playing some again after a 4-5 year break and am just floored by card prices.
I figure with the addition of Madcap I'm aiming for speed over everything else. I'm not sure I've got the list to that point just yet (so I'd love to hear suggestions), but 4 Guides does give me the line of play I have had once now of: Reveal Chancellor, Play Forest, Exile 2 Guides, Play Belcher. Next turn play Forest, Exile Guide, Activate Belcher hitting Stomping Grounds and killing them!
That said, to go with my turn 2 win I have also found the cost of Madcap Experiment to be very real. I played it on turn 3 with all 9 targets in my deck and hit myself for 21 which felt pretty bad
EDIT: I don't like Platinum Emperion in this deck (too hard to cast), but what do people think of Platinum Angel? My biggest issue with her is that if they kill her (and post board that isn't too unlikely) then you have a pretty good chance of losing anyway (as your life total is going to be super low).
I know the general consensus is that R/G Belcher is the way to go, but for anyone playing the Plains Belcher variant, have you considered splashing red for Madcap Experiment? Post Endless Horizons you should theoretically take significantly less damage, so you could probably get away with only running the belchers and no additional targets.
I actually have forgotten about Wheel of Sun and Moon. Nice catch as always, @TheCommunistManatee...
Regarding the Platinum Emperion vs. Wurmcoil Engine argument, Wurmcoil is just easy to cast (8 vs 6) in cases where we don't have Madcap in hand. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion IMO, as two burn cards can easily dispatch it (aside from the fact that Emperion prevents the Madcap damage, while the Angel does not...).
Now, with the Myr Battlesphere, I may test it if I want a more aggressive approach. But I like my Batterskulls better (though I tend to go with only 3 Wurmcoils, 4 Belchers, then some artifact creatures on the board), since 7 vs. 5 is a big difference. Note that I am still considering the fact that we will not always have Madcap Experiment in hand. Thus, our threats/ways to survive must be cards that we can easily cast.
As reference for those asking how much damage potential does Madcap Experiment deal to us, see this picture, as computed by Frank Karsten. Given this data, I'm much more comfortable with having 7 artifacts to search for, having another on the board.
I think it is risky to play only one colorless source. Yes, the deck may search for it easily, but more and more decks are going Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge main. I suggest adding Talisman of Impulse, replacing the 2 Lay of the Land.
I haven't thought of Evolution Charm recently. If you really are pushing for delirium, I'd go for Harrow. It brings a land and an instant together in the graveyard. Since you're into colorless, I might also suggest Hangarback Walker and, to a lesser extent, Pilgrim's Eye, as they are an artifact and a creature in one.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Short answer: this is not a good deck.
Longer answer: I've played this deck for fun and for Leagues on MTGO. It's quite decent in grindier, midrange metagames, but much worse in really aggressive and fast ones. You can also randomly beat fast decks with good draws, and you gain matchup percentage points over opponents who have no clue what you're doing. This makes it an FNM deck, an MTGO deck, and maybe a PPTQ deck at a smaller venue. I wouldn't bring it to a GP or SCG tournament, however.
Wurmcoil + Belcher seem like the best two to grab. We cannot consistently hit any single one artifact though so you will have to be happy with whichever you happen to hit. For instance, we could be in desperate need of Belcher but grab a Wurmcoil instead and vice versa. This isn't too bad, as both are great cards, but in certain situations it may cost you the game
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
The deck is not cutthroat like Bant Eldrazi, or resilient and consistent like Jund, if that's what you mean of competitive. Unfortunately, we cannot push this deck's competitiveness level further, as Wizards tend to avoid cards, or be careful designing cards, that will enable combo decks such as this deck. I say, RG is the most stable build. Kenshin has pointed out most about the deck. But on one note, I'm actually willing to risk playing this in a Grand Prix (more time to eat and wander around hahaha!).
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
With that in mind, I am considering going for a more all in combo deck and just sidebaording in a less grindy way (i.e. less Pithing Needle more Nature's Claim)
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Is there any chance we could tweak this deck to include the package: 4 possibility storm, 1 memnite and 1 emrakul, the aeons torn ?
Once cast possibility storm + memnite would get you into either emrakul or charbelcher, which would overall increase the consistency of casting the belcher. Memnite can be fetch with traverse the ulvenwald if you have delirium.
This however needs some solid tweaks since no other creatures can be added to the deck (so upping the lands for the loss of chancellor and replacing dorks by enchant/artifact acceleration only).
Also, another problem is that, for the combo to work, we need to immediately find Possibility Storm and Memnite, and make sure that Oldrakul is in the deck. That seems so much work in addition to our plan A (ramp early, find Belcher immediately). The only intersection of these two is that all the combo pieces can be fetched by Vessel of Nascency. Memnite being one-of, that makes it really hard for us to execute. We cannot always rely on having a delirium-enabled Traverse the Ulvenwald.
Another problem: Possibility Storm costs 3RR. We merely have one mountain. Altering the manabase to include the combo will make the numbers inconsistent. If we add another Stomping Ground, we dilute the effectivity of the other basic land searchers. If we add another Mountain, we increase the probability of mulligan due to not having an initial green source (in addition to the removal of Chancellor and Guide). Upping the land count makes more non-lethal Belcher activations, so it is out of the equation.
TL;DR, these are two very distinct combos and need two different decks. Possibility Storm's home I believe is a UR shell.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
For the Madcap list, maybe I'll try something like this:
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Stomping Ground
Creatures(19):
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Artifact(7):
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Vessel of Nascency
4 Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery(19):
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Caravan Vigil
4 Madcap Experiment
4 Safewright Quest
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Choke
3 Firespout
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Leyline of the Void
Whichever is effective on the two graveyard hate cards I will use. BB is hard to come by, but those Dredge and Living End players tend to have 3 cards go into their graveyard on a single turn (in case of Trap). If Leyline will be chosen, there's a need to increase it to at least 3, replacing 1 Choke or Nature's Claim.
Edit: Platinum Emperion may also warrant a slot in the sideboard (namely not losing to a lethal Madcap Experiment)
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
EDIT: You can find it here!
I don't know that we really want Platinum Empereon, I prefer more readily castable threats, so I'm packing 3 Wurmcoil Engine and 2 Myr Battlesphere to supplement my Belchers
I wanted to jam Madcap, so this is what I've been playing last couple days. Angel may be better as Emperion, and the relics in the board are 100% wrong, what non-artifact does everyone think would be best suited? Faerie Macabre? Surgical?
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Stomping Ground
Creature
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Enchantment
3 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Caravan Vigil
4 Safewright Quest
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Madcap Experiment
3 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Choke
3 Firespout
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Sundering Titan
6 Forest
1 Stomping Grounds
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
2 Myr Battlesphere
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Safewright Quest
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Madcap Experiment
3 Nature's Claim
2 Blood Moon
1 Choke
2 Firespout
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Fracturing Gust
I figure with the addition of Madcap I'm aiming for speed over everything else. I'm not sure I've got the list to that point just yet (so I'd love to hear suggestions), but 4 Guides does give me the line of play I have had once now of: Reveal Chancellor, Play Forest, Exile 2 Guides, Play Belcher. Next turn play Forest, Exile Guide, Activate Belcher hitting Stomping Grounds and killing them!
That said, to go with my turn 2 win I have also found the cost of Madcap Experiment to be very real. I played it on turn 3 with all 9 targets in my deck and hit myself for 21 which felt pretty bad
EDIT: I don't like Platinum Emperion in this deck (too hard to cast), but what do people think of Platinum Angel? My biggest issue with her is that if they kill her (and post board that isn't too unlikely) then you have a pretty good chance of losing anyway (as your life total is going to be super low).
Regarding the Platinum Emperion vs. Wurmcoil Engine argument, Wurmcoil is just easy to cast (8 vs 6) in cases where we don't have Madcap in hand. Platinum Angel is a worse Emperion IMO, as two burn cards can easily dispatch it (aside from the fact that Emperion prevents the Madcap damage, while the Angel does not...).
Now, with the Myr Battlesphere, I may test it if I want a more aggressive approach. But I like my Batterskulls better (though I tend to go with only 3 Wurmcoils, 4 Belchers, then some artifact creatures on the board), since 7 vs. 5 is a big difference. Note that I am still considering the fact that we will not always have Madcap Experiment in hand. Thus, our threats/ways to survive must be cards that we can easily cast.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR