I like that list. Do you have any trouble finding a win condition when playing only 8 of them and shuffling every turn? Or do you find that Gitaxian Probe and Manamorphose smooth out the draws enough?
Why do you side out Probe instead of Manamorphose? Wouldn't the added benefit of knowing what your opponents are planning be worth the 2 LP?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Has anyone else been trying out Hangerback Walkers? I don't remember if I got any feedback on it. Here is my current list again and still having reasonable success. I have back to grounds over glade but it's not a huge deal to me anyways.
Has anyone thought about the new Eldrazi being spoiled for OGW as great additions to this deck? I think a card like Reality Smasher looks fantastic in this shell as a hasty, evasive beater that comes down early for us (potentially a turn earlier than Wurm), beats most of modern's creatures head-to-head and requires a 2-1 from the opponent to successfully deal with. Thought-Knot Seer is a Thoughtseize stapled to a 4/4 body that can help strip cards against combo. World Breaker has some possibilities, including blowing up an opposing Leyline, cutting someone off a color or blocking flyers all day long. Spatial Contortion is colorless removal and/or could be the finishing points of damage if cast on an attacking Smasher.
And the best part is they can all be hit off stirrings, raising the value of that card again.
I think cards like this can help us stay mono-green or with a light splash, and because we can power them out so quickly could really help us bridge to the midgame when we can successfully Belch for the win. I don't have a proposed decklist at this point, but I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on what these cards bring to the table.
Edit: I forgot to mention that this means we would have to run a 1-of Wastes in the deck, but with so much basic land searching is that a big deal?
Has anyone thought about the new Eldrazi being spoiled for OGW as great additions to this deck? I think a card like Reality Smasher looks fantastic in this shell as a hasty, evasive beater that comes down early for us (potentially a turn earlier than Wurm), beats most of modern's creatures head-to-head and requires a 2-1 from the opponent to successfully deal with. Thought-Knot Seer is a Thoughtseize stapled to a 4/4 body that can help strip cards against combo. World Breaker has some possibilities, including blowing up an opposing Leyline, cutting someone off a color or blocking flyers all day long. Spatial Contortion is colorless removal and/or could be the finishing points of damage if cast on an attacking Smasher.
And the best part is they can all be hit off stirrings, raising the value of that card again.
I think cards like this can help us stay mono-green or with a light splash, and because we can power them out so quickly could really help us bridge to the midgame when we can successfully Belch for the win. I don't have a proposed decklist at this point, but I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on what these cards bring to the table.
Edit: I forgot to mention that this means we would have to run a 1-of Wastes in the deck, but with so much basic land searching is that a big deal?
I'm pumped about Oath and already brewing up a storm to get this baby ready to go for the next Modern season. Like JoJa, I am excited about these new Eldrazi and devoid options and think at least a few of them can find a home.
Before we get to that, we need to remember what we're trying to accomplish with new creatures. Specifically, we need to beat Twin and Affinity using something more proactive than Spellskite. We also tend to generate mana in the following distribution: 1-2 mana on turn one, 2-4 mana on turn two, 5-6 mana on turn three. This means anything with CMC > 6 is off the table or we'd just be playing Karn instead and calling it a day (sorry, World Breaker). All the cheaper stuff is fair game, especially the 4-5 mana cards which we can almost always cast on turn three and sometimes on turn two.
I've been working hard to get Blood Moon into the deck as a turn two haymaker, but I'm going to table that for now and just see what Eldrazi can help us. I'm also going to assume Wastes is an easy inclusion in this deck, even though I've only done maybe 5 matches of testing to confirm that.
To start, I absolutely love Thought-Knot Seer. We can drop this on turn 2-3 in advance of a Twin combo and we can find it off Stirrings. It also gives us random game against all sorts of other combo decks. Bad news? It's a *****ty clock that can't toe to toe any of the fair 4/5 creatures in Modern.
Next up is Reality Smasher. This guy reliably lands on turn three, presents a four turn clock, beats Rhino/Tasigur/Goyf in a fight, and survives both Bolt and Galvanic Blast. Bad news for him, however, is that he doesn't interact with Twin combo and he still can't race Affinity.
Then we have Eldrazi Displacer. This durdle-meister isn't Bolt-proof but we can drop him on turn 2 and the white mana synergizes nicely with Safewright Quest. Once out, the Displacer completely stops Twin until killed (not too hard, probably, because of his 3 toughness), and screws mightily with other problems like Plated Champions, Inkmoths, Titans, Ulamogs, etc. He's not a clock per se, but he does hold the line.
All in all, I feel like all these cards are sort of there but not quite.
So I am still very hesitant about running non-forest lands in this deck, turn 1 green is still hyper important! That said, is the time approaching where colourless belcher using more artifact mana might be viable? It is an idea that has been floated before on here and these Eldrazi seem like an excellent reason to go for it!
As for blood moon, I wouldn't have said it was too hard to push into the deck, I'm running 2 over the faithless lootings I had before as they never really impressed.
I'm not even going to pretend to know the same amount of Modern as either of you guys, but I have found a slower Blood Moon + Stompy style to be the way I think I want to play this deck. Think Tooth 'n Nail but with fewer creatures. Is that the future of this deck, or am I wrong? I feel like I'm wrong. I would like to be wrong. I want this deck to be fast and oppressive.
Manatee, I agree completely and think the deck should stay Green. But as an exercise in deck theory, how would a colorless version even play out? I'm not familiar with any way to achieve reliable initial mana outside of playing a normal amount of Lands.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
So I am still very hesitant about running non-forest lands in this deck, turn 1 green is still hyper important! That said, is the time approaching where colourless belcher using more artifact mana might be viable? It is an idea that has been floated before on here and these Eldrazi seem like an excellent reason to go for it!
As for blood moon, I wouldn't have said it was too hard to push into the deck, I'm running 2 over the faithless lootings I had before as they never really impressed.
I am also nervous about it as this deck has fragile mulligans before adding another non-green source. Wastes seems risky for that reason, although again, I could be wrong because I haven't tested it extensively.
I don't think Modern can support a colorless build. The land search isn't there outside of Expedition Map and Wanderer's Twig effects, and then we lose the best card in the deck in Ancient Stirrings.
My comment about Moon was just fitting it into a slot-tight deck alongside new Eldrazi. Moon itself rocks here.
I'm not even going to pretend to know the same amount of Modern as either of you guys, but I have found a slower Blood Moon + Stompy style to be the way I think I want to play this deck. Think Tooth 'n Nail but with fewer creatures. Is that the future of this deck, or am I wrong? I feel like I'm wrong. I would like to be wrong. I want this deck to be fast and oppressive.
I don't mind a grindy Plan B so long as we have few enough lands to support a T3-T4 win off Belcher Plan A. But adding too many lands really reduces those chances.
Well, the more I think about the need to have colorless mana to cast the new Eldrazi, the less excited about it I become. I think it's still possible in a Mono-green shell to run a singleton Waste, fetch it early off land search and make that work, but I'm unsure. (someone please prove me wrong--I'll play it)
It's been a while since I was active on the thread so I went back and read the last 4 pages or so and it looks like there have been a ton of versions of the deck proposed. I like the red splash people have been gravitating to, and it seems like the strongest color combination so far. I know that some people have been running blood moon in their sideboards in the red-splash, but have we tried main-boarding Blood Moon? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death and I just haven't gone far enough back to see)
As a format-defining hate card, it hits more of the Modern Metagame than any other card I can think of. Even the new Eldrazi decks, which have been fairly immune to Blood Moon, are going to open themselves up to being more vulnerable to it by trying to cram a lot of the new colorless Eldrazi from OGW in their decks. And even though it doesn't thwart the current decks too much, it does slow them down--maybe enough to belch for the win.
Anyway, here would be my very rough first attempt at an all-in on Blood Moon 'Belcher list:
The object is to maximize the ways to get red online, with Spirit Guide, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, and Safewright Quest giving us 16 ways to get red mana early. With the right opening hands, we should be able to get Blood Moon down turn 2 (and on turn 1 in a Christmas Land scenario). The sideboard is all about maximizing our chances to beat our toughest match-ups in Affinity and Twin. We beat up on a lot of the fair decks, and the combo of Moon and Crumble should take care of the Big mana strategies. Against burn I am counting on blocking their early creatures and landing a wurmcoil, and we are blessed by the fact that we take almost zero damage from lands (it could actually be zero if we ran Cinder Glade over Stomping Ground).
I would love to get feedback or thoughts on this type of Blood Moon-centric list. Again, I apologize if this has been covered to death.
Well, the more I think about the need to have colorless mana to cast the new Eldrazi, the less excited about it I become. I think it's still possible in a Mono-green shell to run a singleton Waste, fetch it early off land search and make that work, but I'm unsure. (someone please prove me wrong--I'll play it)
You're mostly not wrong. The math for doing that isn't great.
Blood Moon can be a very problematic card for a lot of decks. A lot of people on this thread have thought of it as a good Sideboard option for the deck because it doesn't affect the primary gameplan at all. I know Shinx mentioned that s/he had tried it maindeck, so I can see it happening.
I've been working hard to get Blood Moon into the deck as a turn two haymaker, but I'm going to table that for now and just see what Eldrazi can help us. I'm also going to assume Wastes is an easy inclusion in this deck, even though I've only done maybe 5 matches of testing to confirm that.
I think exploring this option is probably the correct thing to go about at this time. None of the Eldrazi are particularly spectacular, and Mark Rosewater really isn't that excited about colorless mana costs. [Source] He also said that we won't be seeing much of them. (Probably ever again.) [Source] [Source]. I can't find a citation for this, but I read that essentially what R&D are trying to do here is define an often misunderstood an unrepresented aspect of the rules. That being the difference in generic and colorless mana. Now I can finally say " C not X" and people will understand, because there is a symbol. That is all they are doing. Because the nature of the set is colorless, they felt that this was a good time to introduce a new symbol. But this symbol will not appear on costs for newer cards, and the plan is to let Wastes rotate out of Standard. There's not going to be any future development here, so the only cards we're going to be able to utilise are the ones from this set. None of them have been very impressive, and we aren't getting new ones.
An interesting option I'm going to start exploring is maindeck Blood Moons, Magi of the Moons, and maybe even Ensnaring Bridges. I'm only doing this because I think it is the only way the deck will ever have any serious game in Modern as it currently stands. If I ever have the opportunity to play a fast 90% T2/3 kill deck, then I will do that for sure, but in the meantime slowing down the game maybe a better option. A few Chalice of the Voids may even be okay. I could never put them at X=1, but 2 or 3 wouldn't hurt the deck at all if it was built accordingly. ALso Crumble to Dust is not a bad idea. The mana cost isn't great, but it does a lot.
As a format-defining hate card, it hits more of the Modern Metagame than any other card I can think of. Even the new Eldrazi decks, which have been fairly immune to Blood Moon, are going to open themselves up to being more vulnerable to it by trying to cram a lot of the new colorless Eldrazi from OGW in their decks. And even though it doesn't thwart the current decks too much, it does slow them down--maybe enough to belch for the win.
I don't understand how this is true because they will still be playing Basic Lands? Or are there non-Basic Lands in Modern that tap for colorless?
Regardless, I think a Blood Moon plan is called for. So much so that I'm going to be going for a prison deck with a Belcher finish. I have had games where I play a T2 Blood Moon, and the opponent scoops. It's viable.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
I don't understand how this is true because they will still be playing Basic Lands? Or are there non-Basic Lands in Modern that tap for colorless?
Regardless, I think a Blood Moon plan is called for. So much so that I'm going to be going for a prison deck with a Belcher finish. I have had games where I play a T2 Blood Moon, and the opponent scoops. It's viable.
The Eldrazi decks are not running any Wastes at the moment. Even the Mono-B versions are relying on their Ghost Quarters, Eldrazi Temples, Cavern of Souls, pain lands, and in some cases even Tendo Ice Bridges in order to pay the colorless costs necessary to play the new cards, ie: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Matter Reshaper, activate the ability of Eldrazi Displacer, or cast Warping Wail. Until now, the colorless Eldrazi cards they played could be paid for with mana of any color, which is why they've been able to fight through a Blood Moon pretty successfully.
Now they will actually have to produce colorless mana to cast the new spells, which short of already having a few Scions on the field would be impossible with the non basics they are using under a Blood Moon.
As no fetches will allow them to grab Wastes, their only outs to a blood moon if they need to cast a new Eldrazi is to either Expedition Map for it (slow) or Ghost Quarter their own lands to get one (painful), and in either case they would have to be playing Wastes in the first place. None of the proposed decks I've seen on the various Bx Eldrazi discussions are running Wastes. I think most players feel confident from their success so far that they don't have to worry about blood moon.
I think with the more of the new Eldrazi cards they play, the harder a blood moon hits them.
I actually also play Mono-B Eldrazi deck, and I'm only adding 6 of the new cards (4 thought-knot/2 Warping Wail) to my deck just for this reason.
Just to discuss the colorless splash a little longer (not sure I like it more than going the blood moon route, but want to explore a little longer)
Could mind stone help in that splash to make it not so painful? Maybe replacing some recross the paths or rampant growth which sometimes fit in certain lists. Sure we would need that single wastes to fetch but mind stone sees play sometimes in skred red and I think mono b eldrazi.
Warping wail sure looks interesting. It can disrupt twin and if nothing else ramp at opponents EOT. We run very few instants but Wall of roots could be better utilized on opponents turn if we had it.
I haven't done any testing for this just brainstorming. I have been testing nissa's pilgrimage as a 2 of. It can be AWESOME or terrible, overall I think it just isn't worth it with only 6 basic forests, by the time you cast it I often only have 1 or 2 basic forests left so spell mastery is just a waste. (no pun intended) If only it could get wastes...
Speaking of the red splash any thoughts on kozilek's return? I have a love/hate relationship with firespout but the devoid helps find kozilek's return.
Thanks to everyone talking about this deck and working on it! No matter what I still love playing it.
p.s. Ruin in their wake...if only we got the "devoid rampant growth" we deserve
Just to discuss the colorless splash a little longer (not sure I like it more than going the blood moon route, but want to explore a little longer)
Could mind stone help in that splash to make it not so painful? Maybe replacing some recross the paths or rampant growth which sometimes fit in certain lists. Sure we would need that single wastes to fetch but mind stone sees play sometimes in skred red and I think mono b eldrazi.
Mind Stone isn't terrible. It's cheap, it replaces itself later, we can get it off Stirrings (increasing our hit rate), and it addresses the Waste mana issue without adding a Waste mana to the deck. Maybe worth testing but I also think 4 Stones isn't nearly enough to support the Waste mana creatures.
Speaking of the red splash any thoughts on kozilek's return? I have a love/hate relationship with firespout but the devoid helps find kozilek's return.
I've used Rough // Tumble instead because it doesn't kill my Birds. But it also doesn't kill Affinity fliers, which is a major problem. Return gets found off Stirrings (big plus), but forces us to play no mana dorks. Why can't we get a darn Wild Growth?
So I'm just going to come out and say it. I think the colourless splash is wrong. I'm not saying that we can't use Devoid cards or other colourless monstrosities but I just don't think the glass mana cards are good enough for what it does to our mana.
One card I am considering testing is From Beyond. It's a Bitterblossom that makes us mana (useful for casting + activating Belcher in one turn/paying for Mana Leak). It's also a BB you can find from stirrings.
For reference here is my OTG list (without From Beyond)
I'm not going all in on Kozilek's Return because I have found dealing 3 to be relevant in the meta I play in. There's Wild Nactal's stalking the mountains of burn these days and more than a couple of zoo players besides. To be honest I'm wondering about whether I could support Anger of the Gods, I get into spots where I could have double red reasonably often but probably not enough for a double red spell you really need to cast on turn 3/4.
I was not a fan of Beyond. In grindy games it was ok but other than that it didn't speed things up fast enough. You ar also not running any eldrazi to help utilize it's second ability. If people are gonna play this deck with moons and bridges to prolong the game it might work out better. I might want to run Awakening Zone instead. I couldn't hit it with Stirrings but still a mana cheaper and can come done easy turn two.
To be honest I'm wondering about whether I could support Anger of the Gods, I get into spots where I could have double red reasonably often but probably not enough for a double red spell you really need to cast on turn 3/4.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
7-Land Belcher is a variation of the legacy version, 2-Land Belcher. Since we don’t have Land Grant available to us, it uses various search spells to filter out the basic lands to set up a lethal Goblin Charbelcher activation within the first 4 turns of the game.
Why should you play 7-Land Belcher?
1. You enjoy playing lightning fast combo decks
2. You like playing a deck that boast numerous synergies
3. You appreciate decks with a streamlined process, allowing you to focus on game state
4. You enjoy playing decks with unique strategies
Wall of Roots – Great mana accel, while still being able to stave off aggro.
Wild Cantor – Great mana accel, while having great synergy with Caravan Vigil.
Ancient Stirrings, Caravan Vigil, Lay of the Land, Safewright Quest – One mana spells that allow you to be able to filter out the lands in the deck, so you can ensure you hit your land drops as well as increase your chances for a lethan Goblin Charbelcher activation. Ancient Stirrings can also snag up a Goblin Charbelcher.
Forest – Basic lands are needed in greater number for the number of basic filters.
Grove of the Burnwillows – Acts as a dual land that doesn’t pain you. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
Stomping Ground – Tutorable with Safewright Quest and doubles the damage with a Goblin Charbelcher. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
Temple Garden – Tutorable with Safewright Quest for increased sideboard options. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
I didn’t put my sideboard on here, because I’m still working it out for my local meta.
This is the beginning stages of deck creation, so I am looking for all the suggestions I can get. So far, in testing this deck has been a blast. Generally I’ve been able to get turn 4 wins, on average. I feel that, with finer tuning, this deck will be able to put out turn 2 and 3 wins pretty consistently. Thanks for reading and your help!
7-Land Belcher is a variation of the legacy version, 2-Land Belcher. Since we don’t have Land Grant available to us, it uses various search spells to filter out the basic lands to set up a lethal Goblin Charbelcher activation within the first 4 turns of the game.
Why should you play 7-Land Belcher?
1. You enjoy playing lightning fast combo decks
2. You like playing a deck that boast numerous synergies
3. You appreciate decks with a streamlined process, allowing you to focus on game state
4. You enjoy playing decks with unique strategies
Wall of Roots – Great mana accel, while still being able to stave off aggro.
Wild Cantor – Great mana accel, while having great synergy with Caravan Vigil.
Ancient Stirrings, Caravan Vigil, Lay of the Land, Safewright Quest – One mana spells that allow you to be able to filter out the lands in the deck, so you can ensure you hit your land drops as well as increase your chances for a lethan Goblin Charbelcher activation. Ancient Stirrings can also snag up a Goblin Charbelcher.
Forest – Basic lands are needed in greater number for the number of basic filters.
Grove of the Burnwillows – Acts as a dual land that doesn’t pain you. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
Stomping Ground – Tutorable with Safewright Quest and doubles the damage with a Goblin Charbelcher. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
Temple Garden – Tutorable with Safewright Quest for increased sideboard options. Helpful for the sunburst portion of Pentad Prism.
I didn’t put my sideboard on here, because I’m still working it out for my local meta.
This is the beginning stages of deck creation, so I am looking for all the suggestions I can get. So far, in testing this deck has been a blast. Generally I’ve been able to get turn 4 wins, on average. I feel that, with finer tuning, this deck will be able to put out turn 2 and 3 wins pretty consistently. Thanks for reading and your help!
Merged with the existing Belcher thread
I'll also note I am not at all a fan of Bloom here. It leaves us super light to Twin and random BGx removal (Decay, Command), and forces us to rely on turn four wins when we might be on the draw. I vastly prefer a more hybrid combo/ramp plan where we can win off turn 3-4 Belcher or turn 3-4 Wurmcoil (or something similar).
I do like the Serum Powders being played. I believe it was discussed a while back but I never got around to testing it out. Pentad Prism doesn't seem like a bad idea either and haven't seen or heard anyone else testing it out here.
A few things that I don't really like in your list.
1. I'm not a fan of Grove of the Burnwillows. You can't fetch it with anything expect get lucky with it in your opening hand or with Ancient Stirrings. You won't become landless when you belch as easy.
2. I also don't like using Lotus Bloom like ktkenshinx has mentioned already. Also with the eldrazi decks coming around, suspend cards aren't going to be great. Some of the eldrazi cards (Blight Herder and Wasteland Strangler) use your exiled cards.
3. You also have no alternate win condition. Once they take care of belcher you have no end game.
This deck is already well position against the meta with the exception of Twin and Affinity. With the right sideboard cards, we can beat Affinity. Twin on the other hand was almost impossible and really held this deck back. With that threat being removed from the metagame, I firmly believe it is Belcher's time to shine.
So how do we best take advantage of this sea change? Which version best competes in a Twin-less meta?
On that topic, what do the rest of you think about playing Oblivion Sower in the Wurmcoil/Hangaback spot? It's still a six mana threat that is incredibly difficult for other decks to deal with, and should help ramp us AND avoids artifact hate. Am I on to something?
Ding dong the wicked witch is dead! Whether or not a Twin banning is good for the format I totally agree that it is great for us! Sower isn't a card I had really thought about at all but I will start testing it!
EDIT:
A few thoughts about sideboard, I've been boarding in Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, Choke, Defense Grids and Spellskite to deal with Twin. I'm taking Torpor Orb out of my board as people also seem to have stopped playing Collected Company combos in my area. Any good ideas for replacement cards? Temporarily probably just another Pithing Needle until things settle down a bit more.
So right now I'm still testing the Main Board Blood Moon, but I have to ask if that's even necessary anymore with twin gone? Can we just stay mono green and be all-in on the combo knowing that comboing out on turns 4 and 5 is no longer a death sentence?
First things first, I would very much recommend Fracturing Gust over Creeping Corrosion, it hits man-lands and gains life vs Affinity which can make it even more backbreaking. As for Blood Moon, one of the reasons Twin was such a good deck was that it could main deck Blood Moon, there were many many other factors but if anything with Twin gone Moon gets batter as there is one less deck out there planning to play it anyway.
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Why do you side out Probe instead of Manamorphose? Wouldn't the added benefit of knowing what your opponents are planning be worth the 2 LP?
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
4 Goblin Charbelcher
//Artifact Creature (5)
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
//Creature (19)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wall of Roots
4 Utopia Sprawl
//Instant (3)
3 Lightning Bolt
//Sorcery (18)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
2 Harmonize
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
//Land (7)
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Moon
1 Choke
1 Defense Grid
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
Might ditch the Choke and go for a third Moon. Speaking of which has anyone tested new sideboard tech?
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
And the best part is they can all be hit off stirrings, raising the value of that card again.
I think cards like this can help us stay mono-green or with a light splash, and because we can power them out so quickly could really help us bridge to the midgame when we can successfully Belch for the win. I don't have a proposed decklist at this point, but I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on what these cards bring to the table.
Edit: I forgot to mention that this means we would have to run a 1-of Wastes in the deck, but with so much basic land searching is that a big deal?
I'm pumped about Oath and already brewing up a storm to get this baby ready to go for the next Modern season. Like JoJa, I am excited about these new Eldrazi and devoid options and think at least a few of them can find a home.
Before we get to that, we need to remember what we're trying to accomplish with new creatures. Specifically, we need to beat Twin and Affinity using something more proactive than Spellskite. We also tend to generate mana in the following distribution: 1-2 mana on turn one, 2-4 mana on turn two, 5-6 mana on turn three. This means anything with CMC > 6 is off the table or we'd just be playing Karn instead and calling it a day (sorry, World Breaker). All the cheaper stuff is fair game, especially the 4-5 mana cards which we can almost always cast on turn three and sometimes on turn two.
I've been working hard to get Blood Moon into the deck as a turn two haymaker, but I'm going to table that for now and just see what Eldrazi can help us. I'm also going to assume Wastes is an easy inclusion in this deck, even though I've only done maybe 5 matches of testing to confirm that.
To start, I absolutely love Thought-Knot Seer. We can drop this on turn 2-3 in advance of a Twin combo and we can find it off Stirrings. It also gives us random game against all sorts of other combo decks. Bad news? It's a *****ty clock that can't toe to toe any of the fair 4/5 creatures in Modern.
Next up is Reality Smasher. This guy reliably lands on turn three, presents a four turn clock, beats Rhino/Tasigur/Goyf in a fight, and survives both Bolt and Galvanic Blast. Bad news for him, however, is that he doesn't interact with Twin combo and he still can't race Affinity.
Then we have Eldrazi Displacer. This durdle-meister isn't Bolt-proof but we can drop him on turn 2 and the white mana synergizes nicely with Safewright Quest. Once out, the Displacer completely stops Twin until killed (not too hard, probably, because of his 3 toughness), and screws mightily with other problems like Plated Champions, Inkmoths, Titans, Ulamogs, etc. He's not a clock per se, but he does hold the line.
All in all, I feel like all these cards are sort of there but not quite.
As for blood moon, I wouldn't have said it was too hard to push into the deck, I'm running 2 over the faithless lootings I had before as they never really impressed.
Manatee, I agree completely and think the deck should stay Green. But as an exercise in deck theory, how would a colorless version even play out? I'm not familiar with any way to achieve reliable initial mana outside of playing a normal amount of Lands.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Exiles Spellskite, Deceiver Exarch and Pestermite. Oof
Edited to add: If we were looking for a reason to splash colorless to combat Twin and Affinity, this might be the best reason yet.
I am also nervous about it as this deck has fragile mulligans before adding another non-green source. Wastes seems risky for that reason, although again, I could be wrong because I haven't tested it extensively.
I don't think Modern can support a colorless build. The land search isn't there outside of Expedition Map and Wanderer's Twig effects, and then we lose the best card in the deck in Ancient Stirrings.
My comment about Moon was just fitting it into a slot-tight deck alongside new Eldrazi. Moon itself rocks here.
I don't mind a grindy Plan B so long as we have few enough lands to support a T3-T4 win off Belcher Plan A. But adding too many lands really reduces those chances.
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
It's been a while since I was active on the thread so I went back and read the last 4 pages or so and it looks like there have been a ton of versions of the deck proposed. I like the red splash people have been gravitating to, and it seems like the strongest color combination so far. I know that some people have been running blood moon in their sideboards in the red-splash, but have we tried main-boarding Blood Moon? (I'm sorry if this has been discussed to death and I just haven't gone far enough back to see)
As a format-defining hate card, it hits more of the Modern Metagame than any other card I can think of. Even the new Eldrazi decks, which have been fairly immune to Blood Moon, are going to open themselves up to being more vulnerable to it by trying to cram a lot of the new colorless Eldrazi from OGW in their decks. And even though it doesn't thwart the current decks too much, it does slow them down--maybe enough to belch for the win.
Anyway, here would be my very rough first attempt at an all-in on Blood Moon 'Belcher list:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells:29
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
1 Nissa's Pilgrimage
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Nature's Claim
4 Rending Volley
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Crumble to Dust
The object is to maximize the ways to get red online, with Spirit Guide, Utopia Sprawl, Birds, and Safewright Quest giving us 16 ways to get red mana early. With the right opening hands, we should be able to get Blood Moon down turn 2 (and on turn 1 in a Christmas Land scenario). The sideboard is all about maximizing our chances to beat our toughest match-ups in Affinity and Twin. We beat up on a lot of the fair decks, and the combo of Moon and Crumble should take care of the Big mana strategies. Against burn I am counting on blocking their early creatures and landing a wurmcoil, and we are blessed by the fact that we take almost zero damage from lands (it could actually be zero if we ran Cinder Glade over Stomping Ground).
I would love to get feedback or thoughts on this type of Blood Moon-centric list. Again, I apologize if this has been covered to death.
Edit: grammar
You're mostly not wrong. The math for doing that isn't great.
Blood Moon can be a very problematic card for a lot of decks. A lot of people on this thread have thought of it as a good Sideboard option for the deck because it doesn't affect the primary gameplan at all. I know Shinx mentioned that s/he had tried it maindeck, so I can see it happening.
I think exploring this option is probably the correct thing to go about at this time. None of the Eldrazi are particularly spectacular, and Mark Rosewater really isn't that excited about colorless mana costs. [Source] He also said that we won't be seeing much of them. (Probably ever again.) [Source] [Source]. I can't find a citation for this, but I read that essentially what R&D are trying to do here is define an often misunderstood an unrepresented aspect of the rules. That being the difference in generic and colorless mana. Now I can finally say " C not X" and people will understand, because there is a symbol. That is all they are doing. Because the nature of the set is colorless, they felt that this was a good time to introduce a new symbol. But this symbol will not appear on costs for newer cards, and the plan is to let Wastes rotate out of Standard. There's not going to be any future development here, so the only cards we're going to be able to utilise are the ones from this set. None of them have been very impressive, and we aren't getting new ones.
An interesting option I'm going to start exploring is maindeck Blood Moons, Magi of the Moons, and maybe even Ensnaring Bridges. I'm only doing this because I think it is the only way the deck will ever have any serious game in Modern as it currently stands. If I ever have the opportunity to play a fast 90% T2/3 kill deck, then I will do that for sure, but in the meantime slowing down the game maybe a better option. A few Chalice of the Voids may even be okay. I could never put them at X=1, but 2 or 3 wouldn't hurt the deck at all if it was built accordingly. ALso Crumble to Dust is not a bad idea. The mana cost isn't great, but it does a lot.
I don't understand how this is true because they will still be playing Basic Lands? Or are there non-Basic Lands in Modern that tap for colorless?
Regardless, I think a Blood Moon plan is called for. So much so that I'm going to be going for a prison deck with a Belcher finish. I have had games where I play a T2 Blood Moon, and the opponent scoops. It's viable.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
The Eldrazi decks are not running any Wastes at the moment. Even the Mono-B versions are relying on their Ghost Quarters, Eldrazi Temples, Cavern of Souls, pain lands, and in some cases even Tendo Ice Bridges in order to pay the colorless costs necessary to play the new cards, ie: Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Matter Reshaper, activate the ability of Eldrazi Displacer, or cast Warping Wail. Until now, the colorless Eldrazi cards they played could be paid for with mana of any color, which is why they've been able to fight through a Blood Moon pretty successfully.
Now they will actually have to produce colorless mana to cast the new spells, which short of already having a few Scions on the field would be impossible with the non basics they are using under a Blood Moon.
As no fetches will allow them to grab Wastes, their only outs to a blood moon if they need to cast a new Eldrazi is to either Expedition Map for it (slow) or Ghost Quarter their own lands to get one (painful), and in either case they would have to be playing Wastes in the first place. None of the proposed decks I've seen on the various Bx Eldrazi discussions are running Wastes. I think most players feel confident from their success so far that they don't have to worry about blood moon.
I think with the more of the new Eldrazi cards they play, the harder a blood moon hits them.
I actually also play Mono-B Eldrazi deck, and I'm only adding 6 of the new cards (4 thought-knot/2 Warping Wail) to my deck just for this reason.
Could mind stone help in that splash to make it not so painful? Maybe replacing some recross the paths or rampant growth which sometimes fit in certain lists. Sure we would need that single wastes to fetch but mind stone sees play sometimes in skred red and I think mono b eldrazi.
Warping wail sure looks interesting. It can disrupt twin and if nothing else ramp at opponents EOT. We run very few instants but Wall of roots could be better utilized on opponents turn if we had it.
I haven't done any testing for this just brainstorming. I have been testing nissa's pilgrimage as a 2 of. It can be AWESOME or terrible, overall I think it just isn't worth it with only 6 basic forests, by the time you cast it I often only have 1 or 2 basic forests left so spell mastery is just a waste. (no pun intended) If only it could get wastes...
Speaking of the red splash any thoughts on kozilek's return? I have a love/hate relationship with firespout but the devoid helps find kozilek's return.
Thanks to everyone talking about this deck and working on it! No matter what I still love playing it.
p.s.
Ruin in their wake...if only we got the "devoid rampant growth" we deserve
Mind Stone isn't terrible. It's cheap, it replaces itself later, we can get it off Stirrings (increasing our hit rate), and it addresses the Waste mana issue without adding a Waste mana to the deck. Maybe worth testing but I also think 4 Stones isn't nearly enough to support the Waste mana creatures.
I've used Rough // Tumble instead because it doesn't kill my Birds. But it also doesn't kill Affinity fliers, which is a major problem. Return gets found off Stirrings (big plus), but forces us to play no mana dorks. Why can't we get a darn Wild Growth?
4 Goblin Charbelcher
//Artifact Creature (5)
3 Hangarback Walker
2 Wurmcoil Engine
//Creature (21)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wall of Roots
2 Reality Smasher
4 Utopia Sprawl
//Instant (3)
3 Kozilek's Return
//Sorcery (16)
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
//Land (7)
5 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Wastes
2 Blood Moon
2 Wraping Wail
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
One card I am considering testing is From Beyond. It's a Bitterblossom that makes us mana (useful for casting + activating Belcher in one turn/paying for Mana Leak). It's also a BB you can find from stirrings.
For reference here is my OTG list (without From Beyond)
1 Stomping Grounds
6 Forest
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Hangarback Walker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Firespout
2 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Defence Grid
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spellskite
1 Torpor Orb
1 Choke
3 Nature's Claim
1 Firespout
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Kitchen Finks
I'm not going all in on Kozilek's Return because I have found dealing 3 to be relevant in the meta I play in. There's Wild Nactal's stalking the mountains of burn these days and more than a couple of zoo players besides. To be honest I'm wondering about whether I could support Anger of the Gods, I get into spots where I could have double red reasonably often but probably not enough for a double red spell you really need to cast on turn 3/4.
Edit: To get my list right
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
I don't think an XRR cost is unreasonable for this deck. Especially given the Stomping Grounds, Simian Spirit Guide, Birds of Paradise, and Utopia Sprawl. If Red becomes a serious priority don't forget about revisiting Arbor Elf. This deck is certainly capable of playing Red reliably.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Why should you play 7-Land Belcher?
1. You enjoy playing lightning fast combo decks
2. You like playing a deck that boast numerous synergies
3. You appreciate decks with a streamlined process, allowing you to focus on game state
4. You enjoy playing decks with unique strategies
Creatures – 16
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Wall of Roots
4 Wild Cantor
Sorceries – 16
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Serum Powder
Enchantments – 5
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Fertile Ground
4 Forest
1 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
Card Choices:
This is the beginning stages of deck creation, so I am looking for all the suggestions I can get. So far, in testing this deck has been a blast. Generally I’ve been able to get turn 4 wins, on average. I feel that, with finer tuning, this deck will be able to put out turn 2 and 3 wins pretty consistently. Thanks for reading and your help!
Merged with the existing Belcher thread
I'll also note I am not at all a fan of Bloom here. It leaves us super light to Twin and random BGx removal (Decay, Command), and forces us to rely on turn four wins when we might be on the draw. I vastly prefer a more hybrid combo/ramp plan where we can win off turn 3-4 Belcher or turn 3-4 Wurmcoil (or something similar).
A few things that I don't really like in your list.
1. I'm not a fan of Grove of the Burnwillows. You can't fetch it with anything expect get lucky with it in your opening hand or with Ancient Stirrings. You won't become landless when you belch as easy.
2. I also don't like using Lotus Bloom like ktkenshinx has mentioned already. Also with the eldrazi decks coming around, suspend cards aren't going to be great. Some of the eldrazi cards (Blight Herder and Wasteland Strangler) use your exiled cards.
3. You also have no alternate win condition. Once they take care of belcher you have no end game.
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
This deck is already well position against the meta with the exception of Twin and Affinity. With the right sideboard cards, we can beat Affinity. Twin on the other hand was almost impossible and really held this deck back. With that threat being removed from the metagame, I firmly believe it is Belcher's time to shine.
So how do we best take advantage of this sea change? Which version best competes in a Twin-less meta?
On that topic, what do the rest of you think about playing Oblivion Sower in the Wurmcoil/Hangaback spot? It's still a six mana threat that is incredibly difficult for other decks to deal with, and should help ramp us AND avoids artifact hate. Am I on to something?
EDIT:
A few thoughts about sideboard, I've been boarding in Pithing Needle, Torpor Orb, Choke, Defense Grids and Spellskite to deal with Twin. I'm taking Torpor Orb out of my board as people also seem to have stopped playing Collected Company combos in my area. Any good ideas for replacement cards? Temporarily probably just another Pithing Needle until things settle down a bit more.
Edited to add my latest deck configuration. The sideboard is loaded for bear against the decks that can give us the most trouble:
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Oblivion Sower
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells:28
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Rampant Growth
3 Blood Moon
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
4 Nature's Claim
4 Feed the Clan
3 Creeping Corrosion
4 Crumble to Dust
So right now I'm still testing the Main Board Blood Moon, but I have to ask if that's even necessary anymore with twin gone? Can we just stay mono green and be all-in on the combo knowing that comboing out on turns 4 and 5 is no longer a death sentence?