Infernal Tutor is awesome. I love it in Top Control, I wish I can play it in Cherri0s, and Legacy ANT is my favorite jank deck.However, with the mana acceleration spells that put lands into our hand, it's questionable whether we can get Hellbent by turn 5 100% of the time.
I'll be on the lookout for tutors that put cards on the top of the library.
The Infernal Tutors aren't ideal in this deck. We have too many spells that out cards into our hand.
Having Harrow with no more lands to fetch is gross, and having Recross the Paths going back to your hand sometimes is the worst. Having ramp spells with no more lands to fetch is crappy and it makes me sad.
How about we use Plunge into Darkness and Spoils of the Vault while we casually gain life with Nourishing Shoal/Primal Command/Fog effects? Hey, Plunge into Darkness actually gives a use for those dorks we have left over to good use.
Ouch! That seems a bit suicidy. We don't have much defense to start with, I often win with just 5 life and Charbelcher could easily be down 14-20 cards.
This deck is really interesting. I love how Ancient Stirrings digs for Belcher, something that you'd usually have to splash blue for. Here's my version.
Ouch! That seems a bit suicidy. We don't have much defense to start with, I often win with just 5 life and Charbelcher could easily be down 14-20 cards.
I don't think having lands in our hand that we can't play is a problem this deck has very often.
I know we don't always need to be Hellbent, but sometimes I have an Infernal Tutor late and I can't use it for much.
One time I had Harrow, Harrow, Chancellor, and Tutor with no lands in the deck. (I ended up playing Chancellor to stall. Why can't Chancellor have lifelink?)
I understand replicating copies of cards we need is actually viable but I feel like in a few cases it's a dead draw. We can naturally find Charbelcher with Recross the Paths but what if we don't have Recross the Paths? Sometimes we need that Hellbent to kick in for us to really make full use of it. If we can, then I'd be almost certain Infernal Tutor is what we need, but using half the card all the time to find the lands as fast as possible and then missing Paths and not drawing into it seems...durdley.
I've been playing several versions of the deck with different numbers of tutors I suggested we give a try. Fog effects + pain tutors, Summer Bloom effects with more spells that fetches lands into our hands, the sort.
For Fog + pain tutors, it was really useful at times, and my experience with pain tutors normally got me what I needed, but I feel like if we are using 2 cards to dig for a card, we should be winning at that point.
With Summer Bloom effects, I feel like I need one or the other. I have Summer Bloom but I need land fetches. Or the other way. In a lot of instances though, it put me ahead a turn or 2 earlier. But again, needing 2 cards to accelerate isn't very ideal and we should be already winning at that point.
When I saw that you didn't really give pain tutors a try, I spent about 2 hours testing them to see if they fit the deck or not. I really like them with lifegain/Fog, but it took me 2 hours to figure out that they don't fit in this deck.
Is there another card that has an effect like Recross the Paths? Normally these "clash with an opponent" cards have an original version that costs about 1 mana less. I'd be comfortable running 6 of these effects if we can't tutor for it (these effects pretty much tutor up Charbelcher)
Of course as time goes on we might start realizing that certain cards we initially thought were good aren't the most ideal for the deck. Suggesting cards in the beginning, even if they don't seem right, are actually healthy for the success of the deck in the future, and I'm here to help as well. If we don't test suggestions that the community makes, how can we be certain we have the best form of the deck? Fog/pain tutors could be its own deck, and so can Summer Bloom ramp. Even though I ended up being horribly wrong, I learned a lot about the deck in the 4 hours of testing I ended up doing. And that was my first day.
I'll probably be testing Realms Uncharted. I like that I get to play it (because I never did) but binning 2 lands out of 8 at 3 mana feels a little redundant.
Edit: in hindsight it ends up being that this deck may not have room to grow, since we have a green focus. But then again, I've been wrong before. (High Tide)
When I saw that you didn't really give pain tutors a try, I spent about 2 hours testing them to see if they fit the deck or not. I really like them with lifegain/Fog, but it took me 2 hours to figure out that they don't fit in this deck.
Thankyou for testing the pain tutors, I wish your discovery had been "You were totally wrong about them they make this deck." Que sara sara.
Is there another card that has an effect like Recross the Paths? Normally these "clash with an opponent" cards have an original version that costs about 1 mana less. I'd be comfortable running 6 of these effects if we can't tutor for it (these effects pretty much tutor up Charbelcher).
There is a card it was based one Avenging Druid unfortunately he is not Modern legal.
Of course as time goes on we might start realizing that certain cards we initially thought were good aren't the most ideal for the deck. Suggesting cards in the beginning, even if they don't seem right, are actually healthy for the success of the deck in the future, and I'm here to help as well. If we don't test suggestions that the community makes, how can we be certain we have the best form of the deck? Fog/pain tutors could be its own deck, and so can Summer Bloom ramp. Even though I ended up being horribly wrong, I learned a lot about the deck in the 4 hours of testing I ended up doing. And that was my first day.
A fine point, again thank you for testing them, heck if ideas that didn't look good at first were rejected out of hand Charbelcher wouldn't be a deck anywhere.
"Hey guys, what if we make this deck green and use ramp spells to fetch lands from the deck? We can play only like 10 lands?"
"lel nub gtfo you don't know nothing about belcher"
This deck is the best idea Modern Belcher has had.
The fact that this deck works is a marvel. It feels magical every time I go off. I really hope there's a bigger direction we can take with this.
DRS and Realms Uncharted is a cool thought. I'll be doing that.
Oh yeah, and Fog/pain tutors were really awesome when they worked. For 2 mana I can put Belcher/Paths into my hand and cast whatever I dug for. Next turn win 80% of the time from the time of casting Fog.
Of course, you need those two or sometimes you just die. Shoal saccing Chancellor into Spoils of the Vault was nifty, but I needed the right hand and draws, so that was trashed.
Realms Uncharted is a little too cute, but it's still a neat idea. I really don't like putting a bunch of lands in the graveyard. I like to be able to to hard cast Goblin Belcher just from lands in one turn if possible, and if we put two lands in our graveyard, that becomes impossible.
The black tutoring is really necessary. The majority of the deck already is searching, ramping and filtering. Running a tutor that has negative synergy with Recross the Path seems foolish, it's one of the best cards in the deck, because it's easy to win the clash because we almost never reveal a land.
Fog is cool, but I really do like Healing Leaves because I feel they are more versatile and are better against the control match up.
Love the deck idea. I'm wondering why manamorphose isn't being run as a deck thinning agent though. Could this also be a deck that could actually use serum powder?
There's also the theory of winning by running a rather paltry 16 lands and scapeshifting for a no-land deck.
edit: lay of the land seems all too appropriate for this deck.
sigh. If only we had access to elvish spirit guide instead of the stupid monkey. We could summoners pact for it and have fun that way lol.
Took the main deck back to pure green mode, if anyone wants to try and make a black splash mode I'll be happy to feature it in the variants section.
If at any time someone thinks one of the Variants should be promoted to main deck, we'll do a vote and change it accordingly.
Love the deck idea. I'm wondering why manamorphose isn't being run as a deck thinning agent though. Could this also be a deck that could actually use serum powder?
I tried Serum Powder for a while and there weren't many hands that had it that wanted it. If you remove 7 cards and 3 of them are Goblin Charbelcher/Recross the Paths you've actually lowered your chances of getting your finisher.
If you have a hand with a Forest or Chancellor of the Tangle its probably a hand you want to keep and play.
So I don't know what the odds are of having 1 out of 4 Serum Powder and not having any one of five cards in your deck is in theory, but in practice it just never happened for me.
Against control you can always bring in Eyes of the Wisent. It's a scary card for them. Really makes the thought of countering anything a bad trade off.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Against control you can always bring in Eyes of the Wisent. It's a scary card for them. Really makes the thought of countering anything a bad trade off.
Except the only thing I'd want to stop them from countering is much scarier than a 4/4. Tormod's Crypt could be a great sideboard card.
Against control you can always bring in Eyes of the Wisent. It's a scary card for them. Really makes the thought of countering anything a bad trade off.
guttural response is decent tech against control. It is essentially our red elemental blast and can be cast off the back of any green source or spirit guide.
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My love of lands knows no bounds.
Currently playing: GCasual 8-post R Casual Land Destruction UBRWG Legacy Dredge WGB Modern Melira Pod RUG EDH
guttural response is decent tech against control. It is essentially our red elemental blast and can be cast off the back of any green source or spirit guide.
Sure, it's probably better in a Combo shell anyway because you just want to get the combo off. You could in a pinch use Ricochet Trap too. Ricochet trap let's you foil the card draw of Cryptic Command and Remand.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
I think you have too many tutors now. Tomorrow evening I will do the math on the number of tutors you will want for 8 lands. I would do it tonight, but it's my birthday so I plan on doing as little of anything as possible.
Dropping tutors might mean extra room for other wincons and combo protection.
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My Modern decks: B/R/G Living End G/R/B G/R Tron R/G U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
After seeing the initial play-by-play scenarios shown in the OP, I'm so tempted to build this deck w/ a built-in Leyline of Anticipation. =_= With LoA, you can play Charbelcher on their turn, and activate it on your turn FTW. Also, it's going to annoy the heck out of your opponents when you play your land tutors and rampant growths at instant speed. LOL~
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On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
I think I found our Recross the Paths copies #5 and 6. Abundance
Say land, stack Belcher on top, then say nonland.
This is REALLY slow, but plop it down at 4 mana (could even be turn 2) and you can use this to find your other lands while you set up for Belcher.
Testing is required. I'll try it out tonight.
Going to test it with some draw spells I want to try.
I'll be toying around with a version with Nourishing Shoal, landcycling friends, some shock lands in the mix, and pain tutors. Maybe Primal Command. If we can't tutor for it, go stompy. Maybe Cream of the Crop for digging cus lol.
I'll also be brewing an iteration with things like Utopia Sprawl and Trade Routes, and untap permanent spells like Hidden Strings and Twiddle to generate quite a bit of mana to tutor, cast Belcher, and pop Belcher by turn 4. Maybe a half and half split between land fetches and enchantments?
Just put 1 Swamp (can be tutored with a lot of cards) and play 4 Spoils of the Vault. 1 mana tutor for what u want - belcher, another forest, side cards, everything! Good enough to try.
Just put 1 Swamp (can be tutored with a lot of cards) and play 4 Spoils of the Vault. 1 mana tutor for what u want - belcher, another forest, side cards, everything! Good enough to try.
I'm the guy who actually tested both the pain tutors at page 2 (Spoils, Plunge into Darkness) and although they are great in Cheri0s and other faster combo decks, this deck tends to look for Belcher as a means to play it and pop it off immediately. If we tutor up a Belcher, we might have to wait a whole turn to pop it, giving our opponents a chance to react.
Also, it's pretty suicidal in a deck that has turn 4-7 wins. In Cherri0s it's perfect as turn 2 wins are frequent.
That's why I'm trying a version with Nourishing Shoal and the pain tutors with big fatties that have landcycling to pitch and to also pitch Chancellor of the Tangle to Shoal for more life, not only for a better aggro/burn matchup but to be able to use a pain tutor safely.
We did crunch some numbers over at the Modern Cherri0s thread. The highest chance of finding the card you wanted that was a 4 of you didn't not cast/draw/binned was at the 9th or so card at ~30% wit similar numbers close to 9 cards. We don't have hard numbers for Plunge into Darkness but I think someone got 8 cards as an ideal number, with a statistical margin of error of 2 or 3 cards.
You do have to be creative with Infernal Tutor the correct answer isn't always to empty your hand and search for Charbelcher. For instance if you have it in your hand along with a Recross the Paths it might be better to Cultivate and then Infernal Tutor a forest, and save Recross the Paths for your Charbelcher.
Or if you have it in your opening hand with some Chancellors you might want to ditch it quick to copy Llanowar Elves a land or a Safewright Quest.
Or if you have in in your hand with a Recross the Paths and one Forest still lingering in your library, try casting it to get another copy of Recross the Paths, then double casting Paths to get your land and stack your deck for Charbelcher.
I'm still on the look out for a better tutor but Infernal Tutor has some things going on for it.
Ouch! That seems a bit suicidy. We don't have much defense to start with, I often win with just 5 life and Charbelcher could easily be down 14-20 cards.
I don't think having lands in our hand that we can't play is a problem this deck has very often.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Unless we are using 3 black mana we'd do better with Diabolic Tutor or Increasing Ambition
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
2 Stomping Ground
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Safewright Quest
4 Lay of the Land
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Rampant Growth
4 Into the North
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Goblin Charbelcher
A list to help brewers:
! denotes "not recommended".
Mana dorks
!Arbor Elf
!Boreal Druid
!Deathrite Shaman
G sorceries
Rampant Growth effects
2 mana land tutors (I didn't put any in my deck; I think they're too slow.)
!Sylvan Bounty
!Sylvan Scrying
!Mycosynth Wellspring
!Khalni Heart Expedition
!Evolution Charm
3 mana ramp
!Farhaven Elf
!Growth Spasm
Wall Package
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I know we don't always need to be Hellbent, but sometimes I have an Infernal Tutor late and I can't use it for much.
One time I had Harrow, Harrow, Chancellor, and Tutor with no lands in the deck. (I ended up playing Chancellor to stall. Why can't Chancellor have lifelink?)
I understand replicating copies of cards we need is actually viable but I feel like in a few cases it's a dead draw. We can naturally find Charbelcher with Recross the Paths but what if we don't have Recross the Paths? Sometimes we need that Hellbent to kick in for us to really make full use of it. If we can, then I'd be almost certain Infernal Tutor is what we need, but using half the card all the time to find the lands as fast as possible and then missing Paths and not drawing into it seems...durdley.
I've been playing several versions of the deck with different numbers of tutors I suggested we give a try. Fog effects + pain tutors, Summer Bloom effects with more spells that fetches lands into our hands, the sort.
For Fog + pain tutors, it was really useful at times, and my experience with pain tutors normally got me what I needed, but I feel like if we are using 2 cards to dig for a card, we should be winning at that point.
With Summer Bloom effects, I feel like I need one or the other. I have Summer Bloom but I need land fetches. Or the other way. In a lot of instances though, it put me ahead a turn or 2 earlier. But again, needing 2 cards to accelerate isn't very ideal and we should be already winning at that point.
When I saw that you didn't really give pain tutors a try, I spent about 2 hours testing them to see if they fit the deck or not. I really like them with lifegain/Fog, but it took me 2 hours to figure out that they don't fit in this deck.
Is there another card that has an effect like Recross the Paths? Normally these "clash with an opponent" cards have an original version that costs about 1 mana less. I'd be comfortable running 6 of these effects if we can't tutor for it (these effects pretty much tutor up Charbelcher)
Of course as time goes on we might start realizing that certain cards we initially thought were good aren't the most ideal for the deck. Suggesting cards in the beginning, even if they don't seem right, are actually healthy for the success of the deck in the future, and I'm here to help as well. If we don't test suggestions that the community makes, how can we be certain we have the best form of the deck? Fog/pain tutors could be its own deck, and so can Summer Bloom ramp. Even though I ended up being horribly wrong, I learned a lot about the deck in the 4 hours of testing I ended up doing. And that was my first day.
I'll probably be testing Realms Uncharted. I like that I get to play it (because I never did) but binning 2 lands out of 8 at 3 mana feels a little redundant.
Edit: in hindsight it ends up being that this deck may not have room to grow, since we have a green focus. But then again, I've been wrong before. (High Tide)
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
What if you try Wild Cantor in place of Serum Visions and see where that takes you?
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Thankyou for testing the pain tutors, I wish your discovery had been "You were totally wrong about them they make this deck." Que sara sara.
There is a card it was based one Avenging Druid unfortunately he is not Modern legal.
A fine point, again thank you for testing them, heck if ideas that didn't look good at first were rejected out of hand Charbelcher wouldn't be a deck anywhere.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
"Hey guys, what if we make this deck green and use ramp spells to fetch lands from the deck? We can play only like 10 lands?"
"lel nub gtfo you don't know nothing about belcher"
This deck is the best idea Modern Belcher has had.
The fact that this deck works is a marvel. It feels magical every time I go off. I really hope there's a bigger direction we can take with this.
DRS and Realms Uncharted is a cool thought. I'll be doing that.
Oh yeah, and Fog/pain tutors were really awesome when they worked. For 2 mana I can put Belcher/Paths into my hand and cast whatever I dug for. Next turn win 80% of the time from the time of casting Fog.
Of course, you need those two or sometimes you just die. Shoal saccing Chancellor into Spoils of the Vault was nifty, but I needed the right hand and draws, so that was trashed.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
The black tutoring is really necessary. The majority of the deck already is searching, ramping and filtering. Running a tutor that has negative synergy with Recross the Path seems foolish, it's one of the best cards in the deck, because it's easy to win the clash because we almost never reveal a land.
Fog is cool, but I really do like Healing Leaves because I feel they are more versatile and are better against the control match up.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
There's also the theory of winning by running a rather paltry 16 lands and scapeshifting for a no-land deck.
edit: lay of the land seems all too appropriate for this deck.
sigh. If only we had access to elvish spirit guide instead of the stupid monkey. We could summoners pact for it and have fun that way lol.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
If at any time someone thinks one of the Variants should be promoted to main deck, we'll do a vote and change it accordingly.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
I tried Serum Powder for a while and there weren't many hands that had it that wanted it. If you remove 7 cards and 3 of them are Goblin Charbelcher/Recross the Paths you've actually lowered your chances of getting your finisher.
If you have a hand with a Forest or Chancellor of the Tangle its probably a hand you want to keep and play.
So I don't know what the odds are of having 1 out of 4 Serum Powder and not having any one of five cards in your deck is in theory, but in practice it just never happened for me.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
For sideboard a good graveyard hoser is Tormod's Crypt and can be tutored with Ancient Stirrings. Your other option is Relic of Progenitus.
Against control you can always bring in Eyes of the Wisent. It's a scary card for them. Really makes the thought of countering anything a bad trade off.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Lay of the Land is being played.
Except the only thing I'd want to stop them from countering is much scarier than a 4/4.
Tormod's Crypt could be a great sideboard card.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
guttural response is decent tech against control. It is essentially our red elemental blast and can be cast off the back of any green source or spirit guide.
Currently playing:
GCasual 8-post
R Casual Land Destruction
UBRWG Legacy Dredge
WGB Modern Melira Pod
RUG EDH
Sure, it's probably better in a Combo shell anyway because you just want to get the combo off. You could in a pinch use Ricochet Trap too. Ricochet trap let's you foil the card draw of Cryptic Command and Remand.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
Dropping tutors might mean extra room for other wincons and combo protection.
My Modern decks:
B/R/G Living End G/R/B
G/R Tron R/G
U/W/G/R Gargageddon R/G/W/U
R/W/G Naya Burn G/W/R
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
That sounds like some good anti-counter action.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Abundance
Say land, stack Belcher on top, then say nonland.
This is REALLY slow, but plop it down at 4 mana (could even be turn 2) and you can use this to find your other lands while you set up for Belcher.
Testing is required. I'll try it out tonight.
Going to test it with some draw spells I want to try.
I'll be toying around with a version with Nourishing Shoal, landcycling friends, some shock lands in the mix, and pain tutors. Maybe Primal Command. If we can't tutor for it, go stompy. Maybe Cream of the Crop for digging cus lol.
I'll also be brewing an iteration with things like Utopia Sprawl and Trade Routes, and untap permanent spells like Hidden Strings and Twiddle to generate quite a bit of mana to tutor, cast Belcher, and pop Belcher by turn 4. Maybe a half and half split between land fetches and enchantments?
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
I'm the guy who actually tested both the pain tutors at page 2 (Spoils, Plunge into Darkness) and although they are great in Cheri0s and other faster combo decks, this deck tends to look for Belcher as a means to play it and pop it off immediately. If we tutor up a Belcher, we might have to wait a whole turn to pop it, giving our opponents a chance to react.
Also, it's pretty suicidal in a deck that has turn 4-7 wins. In Cherri0s it's perfect as turn 2 wins are frequent.
That's why I'm trying a version with Nourishing Shoal and the pain tutors with big fatties that have landcycling to pitch and to also pitch Chancellor of the Tangle to Shoal for more life, not only for a better aggro/burn matchup but to be able to use a pain tutor safely.
We did crunch some numbers over at the Modern Cherri0s thread. The highest chance of finding the card you wanted that was a 4 of you didn't not cast/draw/binned was at the 9th or so card at ~30% wit similar numbers close to 9 cards. We don't have hard numbers for Plunge into Darkness but I think someone got 8 cards as an ideal number, with a statistical margin of error of 2 or 3 cards.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control