Hey, all. I've started playing around with this deck, just goldfishing so far. I played Suicide Belcher back in its Standard days (with Chrome Mox and the suicidal black tutors, but no 1cc Lay variants), and it was one of my favorite decks....
Lotus Bloom seems like the best way to go off on turn 4. Mishra's Bauble and Wanderer's Twig are extra Stirrings target. (Actually, I started with a 3rd Bloom and Bauble and 4th Rampant Growth instead of the Kodama's/Harrow; but quickly decided I didn't have enough land thinning).
Ok, that build was not too bad if you want to stay mono-green, but I wasn't finding Belcher reliably enough. Recross is, at best, very slow; and Stirrings was fun, and didn't usually whiff completely, and sometimes found Lotus Bloom on turn one (sometimes the correct play, sometimes not); but still, not a reliable way to find Belcher.
Stirrings, Bauble and Twig have left the deck; Arbor Elf converted to Noble Hierarch for U mana; Search for Tomorrow is getting an audition. So far, it's goldfishing fairly well. Main concerns are:
Finding Belcher, still.
Getting enough lands out the deck. I can fire Belcher on turn 4 fairly often, but often there's still a land or two left. Possible solutions: add more Kodama's Reach (I find this to be a strong card, though the 3-slot is getting crowded); or convert a Forest to a Stomping Grounds.
Getting the Breeding Pool out of the deck. Only Safewright and sometimes Recross can find it. Possible solutions: remove it. Between Birds, Hierarch, Utopia Sprawl and Bloom I've got 14 other sources of U (though some are fragile, and top-decked Bloom doesn't count). Manamorphose is a possibility too. Or, add more ways to find it e.g. replace Rampant Growth with Sylvan Scrying.
I think it's a mistake how many players are ruling out Harrow and Cultivate. I think I'm one of the few players in this thread that is still running them, not full playsets, but still, turn 2 Harrow makes turn 4 wins actually possible. Top drawing Cultivate when you have Belcher on the field already is much better than top drawing Lay of the Land.
I'm not sure I can agree with you on that, for Cultivate to be better you would need two or more lands left in your deck. You would also have access to at least 4 mana (that's how you got Belcher out) which means you could play Lay of the Land and activate Belcher so you would need at least 6 mana to play Cultivate and activate Belcher for it to be the better draw. When playing 7 lands this happens naturally only when you have 5 lands in play and haven't played a land for the turn. The more nonland mana sources you have (in play or in hand) the better a Cultivate draw becomes over a Lay of the Land draw with Belcher already in play.
I think it's a mistake how many players are ruling out Harrow and Cultivate. I think I'm one of the few players in this thread that is still running them, not full playsets, but still, turn 2 Harrow makes turn 4 wins actually possible. Top drawing Cultivate when you have Belcher on the field already is much better than top drawing Lay of the Land.
I actually don't mind Cultivate. It's a decent turn 2 play, especially against the decks that aren't putting too much early pressure on you. But Harrow has two problems that I have trouble ignoring. First of all, it's too risky in a metagame with countermagic. Twin, UWR Control, and UWR Midrange all give this card trouble. Remand is particularly brutal against Harrow at 2 CMC with the card draw. If your metagame doesn't have these decks, then it's probably a lot better. But a solid 1/5 decks in my metagame pack countermagic (probably more like 1/4), so it's too risky for me.
The other issue with Harrow is in the 7 land version. It's important to have the ability to cast and activate Belcher on lands alone. Harrow cuts out 1 land and leaves you with a max of 6 that can be in play at any time. That puts you at the mercy of our other mana generators, all of which are more easily removed. It's not a huge problem all things considered, both because we run so many other accelerators, and because some of them are pretty resilient (Sprawl as an Enchantment, SSG in our hand, and Wall with its high toughness). But it's still a danger to consider.
The turn 7+'s, I couldn't find Belcher. Likewise one of the 6's, that was the turn I top-decked it. The other 6 was a mull that short-Belched (with land still in the library) on turn 5 and failed to kill.
Mulligans: 6/30, mean kill = 5.2.
Double mulligans: 0/30. A bit luckier than expected.
Finding Belcher:
Charbelcher: 13/30, mean = 4.3
Fabricate: 10/30, mean = 4.9
Recross successfully: 2/30, mean = 5
Recross unsuccessful (too many lands still in the deck): 2/30.
None: 3/30.
Lack of U for Fabricate when I needed it: 0/30.
Basic land-search languishing in hand while Breeding Pool was stuck in library: 1/30. Seems like this should have happened more, maybe I just got lucky?
Paying 2 life for Breeding Pool: 7/30. Wasn't sure how aggressive to be. Often entering tapped wouldn't change my fundamental turn; or it was still in the library when I Belched.
Belching with land still in library: 13/30. Six of these were lethal (defined as 17+ damage), including five of the Turn 4 kills.
Turn 1 Lotus Bloom: 9/30, mean = 5.0.
Not sure how well it performed. Two of these I had trouble finding Belcher, bringing the mean up. The other seven all Belched on turn 4, but with land still in the library: three fatal, four not.
Overperformers: Kodama's Reach. Rampant Growth plus Lay of the Land in one card. Harrow may be a bit stronger against a goldfish, but I think I agree with ktkenshinx that it's a bad idea in a world with countermagic. Search for Tomorrow. Pretty good suspended on turn 1 or 2; just as good as Rampant Growth later (puts the land into play untapped).
Underperformers: Noble Hierarch? Sometimes I felt like I had too many dorks and not enough land-searching -- hence the large number of short-Belches. Breeding Pool? Not sure yet how badly I need the U, how hard it is to remove from library, and much two life hurts. Rampant Growth. It does what it does, it just doesn't feel as powerful (Reach) or flexible (Search for Tomorrow) as the other options. Recross the Paths. I know it needs to be in the deck for redundancy, but it just feels clunky. And my 3cc slots are getting crowded.
Overall, I think I to up the land-thinning slightly. I'm thinking:
I actually don't mind Cultivate. It's a decent turn 2 play, especially against the decks that aren't putting too much early pressure on you. But Harrow has two problems that I have trouble ignoring. First of all, it's too risky in a metagame with countermagic. Twin, UWR Control, and UWR Midrange all give this card trouble. Remand is particularly brutal against Harrow at 2 CMC with the card draw. If your metagame doesn't have these decks, then it's probably a lot better. But a solid 1/5 decks in my metagame pack countermagic (probably more like 1/4), so it's too risky for me.
The other issue with Harrow is in the 7 land version. It's important to have the ability to cast and activate Belcher on lands alone. Harrow cuts out 1 land and leaves you with a max of 6 that can be in play at any time. That puts you at the mercy of our other mana generators, all of which are more easily removed. It's not a huge problem all things considered, both because we run so many other accelerators, and because some of them are pretty resilient (Sprawl as an Enchantment, SSG in our hand, and Wall with its high toughness). But it's still a danger to consider.
You obviously wouldn't play Harrow if they had the mana up for Remand and you knew they were running Remand. But against most decks (any deck that doesn't run blue), Harrow is an obvious turn 2 play, especially if you are on the play. Cultivate also is very good.
I know you are really into Wall of Roots, but I don't like it that much, because it's the only card in the deck that doesn't directly help us combo, it also costs 2 (I know it basically costs 1, but usually you can't ask it on turn 1) Steve costs 2, (but basically costs 1) and he actually gets us a land.
I would strongly suggest everyone go back and test out Cultivate and/or Harrow again.
I've been running some real preliminary tests replacing one Snow-Covered Forest with a Stomping Ground, but otherwise identical to my previously posted list.
I was only able to run 10 tests yesterday, and so far I would say the results are inconclusive. In three matches, hitting Stomping Ground on a 'Belcher activation triggered lethal damage when another land would not have. In three matches hitting Stomp was just overkill. (The difference between 32 and 64 damage, etc.) And in at least 4 games, I ended up with stranded land search cards in hand a turn or two before firing 'Belcher, because of going down to five basic lands.
It will require more testing, but at this point, I don't think it's proving to be any kind of silver bullet.
Also, it should be noted that at least in this round of tests my average turn win is 5.3. Much slower than where we want to be.
In only one game was a turn 5 Fabricate draw required to find 'Belcher and win the game on turn 6. Maybe we should trust that we can get blue mana and go to a 6 Forest, 1 Stomping Ground list?
I'll run some tests on that, too, when I get the chance.
Finally, I don't remember if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but what are people's thoughts on Prismatic Omen? I see it in a lot of Scapeshift lists, and I wonder if it can do the same thing for us.
I'm thinking of testing -1 Recross the Paths, -1 Wall of Roots and -1 Rampant Growth, for a +3 Prismatic Omen. Those times when you do have it in hand and know there's 1 or 2 lands left in your deck, you could cast it the turn before 'Belcher to at least increase odds of a fatal 'Belcher shot.
Too many Cultivates? Can I afford to give up Breeding Pool for Stomping Grounds?
I would love to see what kind of test results you get with this most recent deck you posted. I'm especially interested what you discover replacing Breeding Pool for Stomping Ground does for the deck's consistency and lethality.
Maybe 4 is too many Fabricate, though? Anyway, I thought your post was super informative. Keep up the good work.
Prismatic Omen doesn't work the way you think it should, I'm afraid. In any case, I think it is better to just play more Into the North if you have space in the 2-mana slot.
Stick to 6 Forests + 1 Stomping Ground or 7 Forests. I'll go so far as to say that this is correct even if you're playing Fabricate. If you are playing Fabricate, drop Arbor Elf for Birds or Hierarch.
Looking back, playing Breeding Pool does seem kind of silly because unlike every other deck out there, you have no fetches. And the only card capable of getting it out of your library consistently is Safewright Quest...IF you don't burn it early on a basic Forest.
obviously a lot less land searching, but horizons seems a lot more powerful than needing a million redundant spells and lets you run answers.
There's a mono-white build listed in the primer, I believe, and someone else posted a white deck that abuses Endless Horizons earlier in the thread. I don't know if they ever reported back how it was working for them, though.
The best thing you could do is take the deck for a spin and let us know how it does.
4 fabricate is absolutely not too many, this deck is a combo deck that basically only wins with charbelcher.
However, if you do want to play with a beatdown plan-B, I already put in a lot of work into it a couple of pages back. quick summery: play beseech the queen over fabricate. you can use it to grab hateful green creatures like thrun or dungrove, and it can still grab the last of your land out of your deck (freeing up slots so that you can play the creatures in the first place) while still also grabing belcher or hate/anti hate when you need it.
As for white with endless horizons: its way too slow, and way too inconsistent. You cant effectively splash green, and thus you can only win off belcher if you first play endless. The deck is much slower and the combo is much more difficult to assemble
Beseech the Queen is out of the question. The whole point of having an beatdown plan B is so that you don't have to waste mana and deck space on expensive tutor spells - you can just drop a beater and go to town with it.
Thrun is not powerful enough to carry a game all by himself. Dungrove Elder, while packing great stats and ability for a 3-mana creature, doesn't help when you're on the back foot because it lacks lifelink.
I do agree that the white version is horrible. It's a 2-card combo in a deck without any cantrips, each half is useless by itself (you can't even blind-activate Belcher and hope to deal a decent amount of damage like you can in the 7-land version), and costs a whopping 8 mana to get both pieces into play, plus another 3 more to end the game.
I'll also add that needing a million redundant spells is exactly what makes this deck tick. When 30/60 cards in your deck are dedicated to enabling the combo, all you need to worry about is drawing the wincon (4/60).
I think White belcher is a different deck, it's more of a control deck, with a lot of removal, and control, with a potential alternate win condition, like White Sun's Zenith.
Playing a beater I guess can work with the green version, but I think it should be in the sideboard, rather than in the main deck, because otherwise you just end up drawing cards that make it harder to pull off the combo. A combo deck has to be dedicated to the combo.
To me, Wurmcoil are additional wincons. You can play 4 Belcher and 4 off-color, 3CMC cards that tutor a Belcher (but still require you to cast Belcher - that means a total of 10 mana, spread 3-4-3). Or you can play 4 Belchers and a 4 colorless 6CMC cards that are pretty damn close to Belcher, which most decks aren't going to be able to beat anyway. Those decks which can beat it are combo decks, which you don't have a good MU against in the first place.
Spoils/Plunge are almost always worse than Ancient Stirrings. For starters, they're off-color. Secondly, in almost any situation you will encounter, Stirrings is just better. If Belcher is located within the top 5, Stirrings gets the job done without any lifeloss, using only green mana. If Belcher is not located within the top 5, then OK, maybe Stirrings won't save you. But I have a hard time believing Spoils/Plunge will, since you end up losing/paying more than 5 life.
It's easy to brush off the lifeloss because "this is a combo deck, it's supposed to win fast anyway". I might be inclined to agree if this was a combo deck that won on turn 3. As it stands now, this deck goldfishes around turn 5, meaning your life total WILL be an issue.
So far this deck has been very consistent for me. I don't miss the Breeding Pool at all, and have never been without blue mana when needed to cast Fabricate. I'm almost always able to get the six basics out of my deck in time to cast a turn 4 or 5 'Belcher, leaving only Stomping Grounds in the deck to deal double damage.
I subbed out 1 Recross the Paths for 1 Kodama's Reach mostly as an experiment, because I don't like drawing multiple Recross in my opening hand. The two times I've cast Kodama's, it's felt very powerful. I cast it once turn 1 with an assist from a Simian Spirit Guide and Chancellor of the Tangle, and it was bonkers.
Through 20 rounds of testing, 10 on the play 10 on the draw, the average turn win breakdown is:
This seems to be a very solid Turn 5 deck. Two of the three times I had not fired belcher by turn 7, I had two Chancellor's in play on turns 4 and 5, which feels very powerful, and likely could have ended in beatdown wins even if I never got the combo off.
It's possible we won't be able to get this deck any faster without the printing of new cards, the unbanning of Chrome Mox, or the reprinting of classics such as Nature's Lore.
obviously a lot less land searching, but horizons seems a lot more powerful than needing a million redundant spells and lets you run answers.
Did it already. I came up w/ a 10 land GW version and tried to make it so I would be able to run PtE as a mainboard solution to Twin and Affinity. PtE also doubles as acceleration well for me when I don't want my opponent to get a land and use it on a chump blocking mana dork. For the deck to work well though, I had Temple Gardens as the main source, Safewright Quest, and Gift of Estates as the main land-tutors.
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Decks built:
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Woohoo! Front page coverage on DailyMTG! It's too bad that they don't give credit to these boards where this deck was unquestionably invented, but press is still press!
Woohoo! Front page coverage on DailyMTG! It's too bad that they don't give credit to these boards where this deck was unquestionably invented, but press is still press!
Goldfished another 30 games. May post a more thorough write-up later, but here's the short version.
Turn 3: 1/30 = 3%
Turn 4: 11/30 = 37%
Turn 5: 10/30 = 33%
Turn 6: 5/30 = 17%
Turn 7+: 3/30 = 10%
mean: 4.9
I don't think the deck can do much better than 40 or 50% turn 4 kills, against goldfish. I'm wondering if we should back off of that as an ideal, accept turn 5, and add some Fabricatable silver bullets. Ensnaring Bridge?
Cultivate is very strong. I think 4 or 5 is the right number. Blue mana for Fabricate was not an issue. Stomping Grounds did not add as much lethality (only 1/30) as I think it should have, given the number of times I Belched with it still in the deck; though it didn't cause thin-ability issues either.
Removing Rampant Growth for Search for Tomorrow was an interesting experiment, and I do think Search is a good card. But I think I oversaturated with cards that should only cost two net, but require three and then pay you back one: hardcast Search, Cultivate +land-drop, Recross. More than once I found myself at four mana with two such cards in hand.
For those who play SSG: I haven't tried him, but he doesn't look strong. A full card for only one mana, not even green. What turn do you usually use him, and for what?
I think I'm about done goldfishing. Going to test against Gruul Zoo first -- aggressive creatures with trample and burn.
SSG can make for some great turn ones, especially in conjunction with Chancellor to cast a T1 Rampant Growth, or Steve. I've often had opening hands that included SSG, Chancellor and a land, and SSG let me cast a turn 1 Rampant Growth as well as a Turn 1 Lay of the Land, for example.
I've also held it up more than once to cast a Belcher on the turn it came down, one turn faster than I normally would have been able to. Personally, I've never been disappointed to have one in my hand, even if it doesn't make the best late game topdeck (unless it lets you drop and fire belcher, which is nice).
Interesting conclusions about Stomping Ground. For giggles I ran a 20 goldfish test with Ground in the deck vs. 20 matches with 7 forests, and I ended up with the same average 5.1 turn win. I wanted to see if going to 7 basics meant I could reliably get all the land out of my deck before firing the cannon, but the times I was able to it was never sooner than round 5 anyway.
I'm not sure that it really makes a difference, but the times I fire 'Belcher with one land left in my deck, which is often, I would rather that land be Stomping Ground even if statistically it doesn't seem to be making a huge difference.
I've gone to a list with two Noble Hierarch instead of Arbor Elf, and I too have had no problems hitting blue mana when needed without the need for Breeding Pool.
My land search package is the 12 one-mana searches plus four Rampant Growth, three Recross the Paths and two Kodama's Reach, and so far it's working out really well for me. This is my favorite version of the list so far, though I will continue to experiment with different land search spells.
I agree that we might have to concede that this is a Turn 5 deck.
I agree that we might have to concede that this is a Turn 5 deck.
I don't see why this deck can't get to turn 3-4. Keep plugging away.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Woohoo! Front page coverage on DailyMTG! It's too bad that they don't give credit to these boards where this deck was unquestionably invented, but press is still press!
First variant, mono-green with Ancient Stirrings
4 Chancellor of the tangle
2 Lotus bloom
2 Mishra's bauble
4 Lay of the land
4 Caravan vigil
4 Safewright quest
4 Ancient stirrings
2 Wanderer's twig
4 Birds of paradise
4 Utopia sprawl
2 Arbor elf
3 Rampant growth
2 Kodama's reach
1 Harrow
4 Recross the paths
4 Goblin charbelcher
Lotus Bloom seems like the best way to go off on turn 4. Mishra's Bauble and Wanderer's Twig are extra Stirrings target. (Actually, I started with a 3rd Bloom and Bauble and 4th Rampant Growth instead of the Kodama's/Harrow; but quickly decided I didn't have enough land thinning).
Ok, that build was not too bad if you want to stay mono-green, but I wasn't finding Belcher reliably enough. Recross is, at best, very slow; and Stirrings was fun, and didn't usually whiff completely, and sometimes found Lotus Bloom on turn one (sometimes the correct play, sometimes not); but still, not a reliable way to find Belcher.
Enter Fabricate:
1 Breeding pool
4 Chancellor of the tangle
3 Lotus bloom
4 Lay of the land
4 Caravan vigil
4 Safewright quest
4 Birds of paradise
4 Utopia sprawl
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Search for tomorrow
3 Rampant growth
2 Kodama's reach
1 Harrow
4 Recross the paths
4 Fabricate
Stirrings, Bauble and Twig have left the deck; Arbor Elf converted to Noble Hierarch for U mana; Search for Tomorrow is getting an audition. So far, it's goldfishing fairly well. Main concerns are:
Finding Belcher, still.
Getting enough lands out the deck. I can fire Belcher on turn 4 fairly often, but often there's still a land or two left. Possible solutions: add more Kodama's Reach (I find this to be a strong card, though the 3-slot is getting crowded); or convert a Forest to a Stomping Grounds.
Getting the Breeding Pool out of the deck. Only Safewright and sometimes Recross can find it. Possible solutions: remove it. Between Birds, Hierarch, Utopia Sprawl and Bloom I've got 14 other sources of U (though some are fragile, and top-decked Bloom doesn't count). Manamorphose is a possibility too. Or, add more ways to find it e.g. replace Rampant Growth with Sylvan Scrying.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
I actually don't mind Cultivate. It's a decent turn 2 play, especially against the decks that aren't putting too much early pressure on you. But Harrow has two problems that I have trouble ignoring. First of all, it's too risky in a metagame with countermagic. Twin, UWR Control, and UWR Midrange all give this card trouble. Remand is particularly brutal against Harrow at 2 CMC with the card draw. If your metagame doesn't have these decks, then it's probably a lot better. But a solid 1/5 decks in my metagame pack countermagic (probably more like 1/4), so it's too risky for me.
The other issue with Harrow is in the 7 land version. It's important to have the ability to cast and activate Belcher on lands alone. Harrow cuts out 1 land and leaves you with a max of 6 that can be in play at any time. That puts you at the mercy of our other mana generators, all of which are more easily removed. It's not a huge problem all things considered, both because we run so many other accelerators, and because some of them are pretty resilient (Sprawl as an Enchantment, SSG in our hand, and Wall with its high toughness). But it's still a danger to consider.
Turn 4: 11/30 = 37%
Turn 5: 13/30 = 43%
Turn 6: 2/30 = 7%
Turn 7+: 4/30 = 13%
Mean = 5.0
The turn 7+'s, I couldn't find Belcher. Likewise one of the 6's, that was the turn I top-decked it. The other 6 was a mull that short-Belched (with land still in the library) on turn 5 and failed to kill.
Mulligans: 6/30, mean kill = 5.2.
Double mulligans: 0/30. A bit luckier than expected.
Finding Belcher:
Charbelcher: 13/30, mean = 4.3
Fabricate: 10/30, mean = 4.9
Recross successfully: 2/30, mean = 5
Recross unsuccessful (too many lands still in the deck): 2/30.
None: 3/30.
Lack of U for Fabricate when I needed it: 0/30.
Basic land-search languishing in hand while Breeding Pool was stuck in library: 1/30. Seems like this should have happened more, maybe I just got lucky?
Paying 2 life for Breeding Pool: 7/30. Wasn't sure how aggressive to be. Often entering tapped wouldn't change my fundamental turn; or it was still in the library when I Belched.
Belching with land still in library: 13/30. Six of these were lethal (defined as 17+ damage), including five of the Turn 4 kills.
Turn 1 Lotus Bloom: 9/30, mean = 5.0.
Not sure how well it performed. Two of these I had trouble finding Belcher, bringing the mean up. The other seven all Belched on turn 4, but with land still in the library: three fatal, four not.
Overperformers:
Kodama's Reach. Rampant Growth plus Lay of the Land in one card. Harrow may be a bit stronger against a goldfish, but I think I agree with ktkenshinx that it's a bad idea in a world with countermagic.
Search for Tomorrow. Pretty good suspended on turn 1 or 2; just as good as Rampant Growth later (puts the land into play untapped).
Underperformers:
Noble Hierarch? Sometimes I felt like I had too many dorks and not enough land-searching -- hence the large number of short-Belches.
Breeding Pool? Not sure yet how badly I need the U, how hard it is to remove from library, and much two life hurts.
Rampant Growth. It does what it does, it just doesn't feel as powerful (Reach) or flexible (Search for Tomorrow) as the other options.
Recross the Paths. I know it needs to be in the deck for redundancy, but it just feels clunky. And my 3cc slots are getting crowded.
Overall, I think I to up the land-thinning slightly. I'm thinking:
1 Stomping grounds
4 Chancellor of the tangle
3 Lotus bloom
4 Lay of the land
4 Caravan vigil
4 Safewright quest
4 Birds of paradise
4 Utopia sprawl
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Search for tomorrow
5 Cultivate/Kodama's reach
3 Recross the paths
4 Fabricate
4 Goblin charbelcher
Too many Cultivates? Can I afford to give up Breeding Pool for Stomping Grounds?
You obviously wouldn't play Harrow if they had the mana up for Remand and you knew they were running Remand. But against most decks (any deck that doesn't run blue), Harrow is an obvious turn 2 play, especially if you are on the play. Cultivate also is very good.
I know you are really into Wall of Roots, but I don't like it that much, because it's the only card in the deck that doesn't directly help us combo, it also costs 2 (I know it basically costs 1, but usually you can't ask it on turn 1) Steve costs 2, (but basically costs 1) and he actually gets us a land.
I would strongly suggest everyone go back and test out Cultivate and/or Harrow again.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Seeing all these lists with 4 Fabricate, I have a better idea. Play 4 Wurmcoils instead and use Wurmcoil/Chancellor beatdown as your plan B.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I was only able to run 10 tests yesterday, and so far I would say the results are inconclusive. In three matches, hitting Stomping Ground on a 'Belcher activation triggered lethal damage when another land would not have. In three matches hitting Stomp was just overkill. (The difference between 32 and 64 damage, etc.) And in at least 4 games, I ended up with stranded land search cards in hand a turn or two before firing 'Belcher, because of going down to five basic lands.
It will require more testing, but at this point, I don't think it's proving to be any kind of silver bullet.
Also, it should be noted that at least in this round of tests my average turn win is 5.3. Much slower than where we want to be.
In only one game was a turn 5 Fabricate draw required to find 'Belcher and win the game on turn 6. Maybe we should trust that we can get blue mana and go to a 6 Forest, 1 Stomping Ground list?
I'll run some tests on that, too, when I get the chance.
Finally, I don't remember if this was discussed earlier in the thread, but what are people's thoughts on Prismatic Omen? I see it in a lot of Scapeshift lists, and I wonder if it can do the same thing for us.
I'm thinking of testing -1 Recross the Paths, -1 Wall of Roots and -1 Rampant Growth, for a +3 Prismatic Omen. Those times when you do have it in hand and know there's 1 or 2 lands left in your deck, you could cast it the turn before 'Belcher to at least increase odds of a fatal 'Belcher shot.
Thoughts?
I would love to see what kind of test results you get with this most recent deck you posted. I'm especially interested what you discover replacing Breeding Pool for Stomping Ground does for the deck's consistency and lethality.
Maybe 4 is too many Fabricate, though? Anyway, I thought your post was super informative. Keep up the good work.
Stick to 6 Forests + 1 Stomping Ground or 7 Forests. I'll go so far as to say that this is correct even if you're playing Fabricate. If you are playing Fabricate, drop Arbor Elf for Birds or Hierarch.
Looking back, playing Breeding Pool does seem kind of silly because unlike every other deck out there, you have no fetches. And the only card capable of getting it out of your library consistently is Safewright Quest...IF you don't burn it early on a basic Forest.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
as a joke--totally untested and rough:
10 plains
4 temple garden
4 sacred foundry
Creatures
4 kitchen finks
4 noble heirarch
2 avacyn's pilgrim
4 birds of paradise
4 simian spirit guide
4 chancellor of the tangle
4 goblin charbelcher
4 endless horizons
4 lotus bloom
Spells
4 path to exile
4 lightning bolt
obviously a lot less land searching, but horizons seems a lot more powerful than needing a million redundant spells and lets you run answers.
You're absolutely right. I overlooked the "lands you control" clause. Thank you for the correction.
There's a mono-white build listed in the primer, I believe, and someone else posted a white deck that abuses Endless Horizons earlier in the thread. I don't know if they ever reported back how it was working for them, though.
The best thing you could do is take the deck for a spin and let us know how it does.
However, if you do want to play with a beatdown plan-B, I already put in a lot of work into it a couple of pages back. quick summery: play beseech the queen over fabricate. you can use it to grab hateful green creatures like thrun or dungrove, and it can still grab the last of your land out of your deck (freeing up slots so that you can play the creatures in the first place) while still also grabing belcher or hate/anti hate when you need it.
As for white with endless horizons: its way too slow, and way too inconsistent. You cant effectively splash green, and thus you can only win off belcher if you first play endless. The deck is much slower and the combo is much more difficult to assemble
Thrun is not powerful enough to carry a game all by himself. Dungrove Elder, while packing great stats and ability for a 3-mana creature, doesn't help when you're on the back foot because it lacks lifelink.
I do agree that the white version is horrible. It's a 2-card combo in a deck without any cantrips, each half is useless by itself (you can't even blind-activate Belcher and hope to deal a decent amount of damage like you can in the 7-land version), and costs a whopping 8 mana to get both pieces into play, plus another 3 more to end the game.
I'll also add that needing a million redundant spells is exactly what makes this deck tick. When 30/60 cards in your deck are dedicated to enabling the combo, all you need to worry about is drawing the wincon (4/60).
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Playing a beater I guess can work with the green version, but I think it should be in the sideboard, rather than in the main deck, because otherwise you just end up drawing cards that make it harder to pull off the combo. A combo deck has to be dedicated to the combo.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It's easy to brush off the lifeloss because "this is a combo deck, it's supposed to win fast anyway". I might be inclined to agree if this was a combo deck that won on turn 3. As it stands now, this deck goldfishes around turn 5, meaning your life total WILL be an issue.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
Spells: 32
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Into the North
1 Rampant Growth
3 Fabricate
1 Kodama's Reach
3 Recross the Paths
4 Goblin Charbelcher
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Stomping Ground
3 Fog
3 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
3 defense Grid
2 Spellskite
3 Torpor Orb
So far this deck has been very consistent for me. I don't miss the Breeding Pool at all, and have never been without blue mana when needed to cast Fabricate. I'm almost always able to get the six basics out of my deck in time to cast a turn 4 or 5 'Belcher, leaving only Stomping Grounds in the deck to deal double damage.
I subbed out 1 Recross the Paths for 1 Kodama's Reach mostly as an experiment, because I don't like drawing multiple Recross in my opening hand. The two times I've cast Kodama's, it's felt very powerful. I cast it once turn 1 with an assist from a Simian Spirit Guide and Chancellor of the Tangle, and it was bonkers.
Through 20 rounds of testing, 10 on the play 10 on the draw, the average turn win breakdown is:
Turn 3: 0
Turn 4: 7 (35%)
Turn 5: 7 (35%)
Turn 6: 3 (15%)
Turn 7+: 3 (15%)
This seems to be a very solid Turn 5 deck. Two of the three times I had not fired belcher by turn 7, I had two Chancellor's in play on turns 4 and 5, which feels very powerful, and likely could have ended in beatdown wins even if I never got the combo off.
It's possible we won't be able to get this deck any faster without the printing of new cards, the unbanning of Chrome Mox, or the reprinting of classics such as Nature's Lore.
I hope to be proven wrong about that, though.
Did it already. I came up w/ a 10 land GW version and tried to make it so I would be able to run PtE as a mainboard solution to Twin and Affinity. PtE also doubles as acceleration well for me when I don't want my opponent to get a land and use it on a chump blocking mana dork. For the deck to work well though, I had Temple Gardens as the main source, Safewright Quest, and Gift of Estates as the main land-tutors.
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1383
Woohoo!
It's a shame LSV didn't link here, as I'm sure he's aware of this thread. There's probably some WotC rule about linking to third-party sites, though.
Still, it's awesome to get such a high profile shout out. I'll throw a link on Reddit and try to drive people here.
Turn 3: 1/30 = 3%
Turn 4: 11/30 = 37%
Turn 5: 10/30 = 33%
Turn 6: 5/30 = 17%
Turn 7+: 3/30 = 10%
mean: 4.9
I don't think the deck can do much better than 40 or 50% turn 4 kills, against goldfish. I'm wondering if we should back off of that as an ideal, accept turn 5, and add some Fabricatable silver bullets. Ensnaring Bridge?
Cultivate is very strong. I think 4 or 5 is the right number. Blue mana for Fabricate was not an issue. Stomping Grounds did not add as much lethality (only 1/30) as I think it should have, given the number of times I Belched with it still in the deck; though it didn't cause thin-ability issues either.
Removing Rampant Growth for Search for Tomorrow was an interesting experiment, and I do think Search is a good card. But I think I oversaturated with cards that should only cost two net, but require three and then pay you back one: hardcast Search, Cultivate +land-drop, Recross. More than once I found myself at four mana with two such cards in hand.
For those who play SSG: I haven't tried him, but he doesn't look strong. A full card for only one mana, not even green. What turn do you usually use him, and for what?
I think I'm about done goldfishing. Going to test against Gruul Zoo first -- aggressive creatures with trample and burn.
I've also held it up more than once to cast a Belcher on the turn it came down, one turn faster than I normally would have been able to. Personally, I've never been disappointed to have one in my hand, even if it doesn't make the best late game topdeck (unless it lets you drop and fire belcher, which is nice).
Interesting conclusions about Stomping Ground. For giggles I ran a 20 goldfish test with Ground in the deck vs. 20 matches with 7 forests, and I ended up with the same average 5.1 turn win. I wanted to see if going to 7 basics meant I could reliably get all the land out of my deck before firing the cannon, but the times I was able to it was never sooner than round 5 anyway.
I'm not sure that it really makes a difference, but the times I fire 'Belcher with one land left in my deck, which is often, I would rather that land be Stomping Ground even if statistically it doesn't seem to be making a huge difference.
I've gone to a list with two Noble Hierarch instead of Arbor Elf, and I too have had no problems hitting blue mana when needed without the need for Breeding Pool.
My land search package is the 12 one-mana searches plus four Rampant Growth, three Recross the Paths and two Kodama's Reach, and so far it's working out really well for me. This is my favorite version of the list so far, though I will continue to experiment with different land search spells.
I agree that we might have to concede that this is a Turn 5 deck.
I don't see why this deck can't get to turn 3-4. Keep plugging away.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
If I knew how to contact them and ask them to give credit here I would. I am the YQM from the article. I love this deck.