The sideboard still isn't finalized because I'm still not sure about Grid or Cage, but Fog, Orb, and Claim are critical. The maindeck Needle can also be ditched for Into the North, a singleton Harrow, or another toolbox artifact of your choice. Finally, I went -1 Elf and +1 BoP because Birds is strong against Affinity and gives us a better shot at blue mana for our extra Fabricate copy.
This list still maintains a strong BGx matchup and a decent games 2/3 vs. Affinity. Twin is rough and Pod game 1 is a hard one, but the sideboard helps out quite a bit in giving you a post-sideboard shot at winning.
The sideboard still isn't finalized because I'm still not sure about Grid or Cage, but Fog, Orb, and Claim are critical. The maindeck Needle can also be ditched for Into the North, a singleton Harrow, or another toolbox artifact of your choice. Finally, I went -1 Elf and +1 BoP because Birds is strong against Affinity and gives us a better shot at blue mana for our extra Fabricate copy.
This list still maintains a strong BGx matchup and a decent games 2/3 vs. Affinity. Twin is rough and Pod game 1 is a hard one, but the sideboard helps out quite a bit in giving you a post-sideboard shot at winning.
If I see this correctly there is a turn 2 win in this deck? You would have a ton of Forests in your deck but still. This deck would just love an unbanned Chrome Mox.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
If I see this correctly there is a turn 2 win in this deck? You would have a ton of Forests in your deck but still. This deck would just love an unbanned Chrome Mox.
I've never won on turn 2 even though I have cast a turn 1 Belcher for a turn 2 activation (that didn't hit for lethal). But I have seen turn 3 lethal activations with this in real games, but it is very inconsistent. It's a solidly turn 4 combo deck but, what makes it strong, is how hard it is to interact with the Belcher win condition and how resilient your gameplan is to conventional discard/countermagic/removal.
Oh, and Chrome Mox would be obscene in this deck. Although at this point I would rather have Nature's Lore.
This is the deck I played last night. I didn't lose any matches, but wasn't in an actual tournament setting so I didn't take great detail of each match. Still, I think the deck is really performing insanely well (and is stunningly beautiful, all foil except for Goblin Charbelcher), and I finally know how to play it, I made only one or two errors the entire night. I have yet to test Into The North, but I'm still very satisfied with running into 1 or 2 land searches with CMC 3. I can understand why in some metas Harrow doesn't work, but it really is just insanely crazy at times. The deck is consistently going off on turn 4 or 5 but a handful of games it'll go off later. The vast majority of the games I didn't mulligan, and the majority of the games I found at least 1 Goblin Charbelcher before turn 4 or 5.
I'm a combo junky so I'll brew with this for a bit. I have to think that there is a way to get this to turn 3. I feel that you need to be at turn 3 to be a real contender. Turn 4 should be the worst case scenario.
Why not run a Stomping Ground? maybe 4 for that matter? You could run Farseek and if you flip it it would double the damage.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Why not run a Stomping Ground? maybe 4 for that matter? You could run Farseek and if you flip it it would double the damage.
You should read over the thread, we went over Stomping Ground. I'm opposed to it because if you draw it in your opening hand, you have to just burn 2 life you wouldn't have had to if you had a regular Forest. Same goes with Recross of the Paths if you hit the Stomping Ground, and this deck really doesn't want to lose life unless it's necessary. Farseek is totally dead if you draw Stomping Ground early, and with 1 land remaining, you still are likely to deal fatal damage even if it's just a regular forest.
Magus of the Vineyard is only good on turn 1 or 2, and it also benefits our opponent. So I'd have to say no on that one. Feel free to test it out though.
You should read over the thread, we went over Stomping Ground. I'm opposed to it because if you draw it in your opening hand, you have to just burn 2 life you wouldn't have had to if you had a regular Forest. Same goes with Recross of the Paths if you hit the Stomping Ground, and this deck really doesn't want to lose life unless it's necessary. Farseek is totally dead if you draw Stomping Ground early, and with 1 land remaining, you still are likely to deal fatal damage even if it's just a regular forest.
Magus of the Vineyard is only good on turn 1 or 2, and it also benefits our opponent. So I'd have to say no on that one. Feel free to test it out though.
A loss of a mere 2 life to potentially double the damage to an opponent seems very worth it??
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
It's not worth it, it's basically win more, because the deck can easily kill by getting out all the lands, or all but 1 land, but 2 life to a deck with no offense and zero removal can be the difference between a win and a loss.
It's not worth it, it's basically win more, because the deck can easily kill by getting out all the lands, or all but 1 land, but 2 life to a deck with no offense and zero removal can be the difference between a win and a loss.
This question about Ground boils down to how many lands the deck thins, on average, in its games. I started running that test but got distracted by work, so I will go back to it this weekend or week. My theory is that, by the time we activate a Belcher on turn 4, we have on average 5-6 lands thinned from the deck. On turn 3, it would only be 4-5. But I'm not sure if the numbers support that so I will get back to you all. If we had only 5-6 lands in play by turn 4 on average, then we would probably want to add 1 Ground to improve the lethal Belcher chance. But if we can consistently get 7 thinned by turn 4, then it isn't needed. So I'll have to get back to this.
It really isn't worth it. All Stomping Ground does is bring us inconsistency. It's harder to fetch, Steve, Rampant Growth, Caravan Vigil and Lay of the Land can't find it which means it will be harder to do 100% lethal damage and sometimes it will deal damage to us.
Quite frankly, I think it's pointless adding a mountain in any variants of this deck that runs on forests. They simply don't need it. The only variant I see benefiting from an addition of a mountain is the white version.
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On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
It really isn't worth it. All Stomping Ground does is bring us inconsistency. It's harder to fetch, Steve, Rampant Growth, Caravan Vigil and Lay of the Land can't find it which means it will be harder to do 100% lethal damage and sometimes it will deal damage to us.
At least Stomping Ground ensures 20 damage even if you flip only 10 cards, so it doesn't necessarily need to be fetched (Legacy Belcher gets away with not always Land Granting for it).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Congratulations to YQM for Forest Belcher's first 8-man Top 4 appearance! Would YQM be you, ktkenshinx, or someone who liked your list?
Not to be rude, but placing fourth in an 8-man just means that the player won the first match. It doesn't actually mean anything. Don't get me wrong - I like what this deck is trying to do, and I've enjoyed playing it myself for fun, but let's not get too excited about a single published match win.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Congratulations to YQM for Forest Belcher's first 8-man Top 4 appearance! Would YQM be you, ktkenshinx, or someone who liked your list?
WOOHOO!!!!! What great news! It wasn't me who piloted that list, even if it was the 2 Fabricate list I used in the Twin matchup. But huge congratulations to whoever got our deck its first MTGDaily exposure.
Not to be rude, but placing fourth in an 8-man just means that the player won the first match. It doesn't actually mean anything. Don't get me wrong - I like what this deck is trying to do, and I've enjoyed playing it myself for fun, but let's not get too excited about a single published match win.
Amen, HB. Why wouldn't we get excited about our first published match win? It's not new information from a testing standpoint because we knew this deck can win against tier 1 opponents, but it's awesome to have the publicity.
I'm telling you guys, this deck is the real deal. I played quite a few matches today against combo elves and UW control, and this deck delivers. Running Sylvan Ranger over Gatecreeper Vine is huge by the way if you haven't made the change yet.
I'm telling you guys, this deck is the real deal. I played quite a few matches today against combo elves and UW control, and this deck delivers. Running Sylvan Ranger over Gatecreeper Vine is huge by the way if you haven't made the change yet.
What are you cutting for those cards? I would be hesitant to ditch any Wall of Roots because they enable an earlier Belcher cast and activation. From the list that placed in the 8man event, my list from the Twin test, we could go -1 Arbor Elf (he tends to die anyway), and -1 Into the North to go +2 on Sylvan Ranger. But I want to have 4 BoP and 3 Fabricate, so those are already the cuts I am making from that list (3 Fabricate is awesome both because our sideboard is full of artifacts and because you need to find your second Belcher quickly).
Also, on the point of 2-3 Fabricate, and Fabricate itself more generally, I have no idea how some of you guys are winning in lists with Stirrings and 0 Fabricate. Do you just not have UWR or BGx in your metagame? I guess in a metagame that can't interact with Belcher at all (something filled with Affinity or Burn or Merfolk or whatever), then you might not need the Fabricates. But against any interactive opponents, you are probably going to lose a Belcher.
Awsome! But it seems like the player played only against more favorable opponents since RG-Tron and Zoo are not disrupting the combo by any means.
Anyway, really awsome that it showed some results!
Those RG-Tron and Zoo are the ones who placed higher which means one of them beat this deck. RG-Tron may not directly disrupt the combo, but they'll still Pyroclasm your dorks away before using Karn on what few lands you might have.
I wouldn't be surprised if RG-Tron was the one to beat it. Turn 3 Karn Liberated smothers this deck out. Turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine would put a lot of strain on the deck as well with swingy 12 point life shifts and when they bring in Mindslaver for game 2, they can just kill us with our own game-plan.
What are you cutting for those cards? I would be hesitant to ditch any Wall of Roots because they enable an earlier Belcher cast and activation. From the list that placed in the 8man event, my list from the Twin test, we could go -1 Arbor Elf (he tends to die anyway), and -1 Into the North to go +2 on Sylvan Ranger. But I want to have 4 BoP and 3 Fabricate, so those are already the cuts I am making from that list (3 Fabricate is awesome both because our sideboard is full of artifacts and because you need to find your second Belcher quickly).
Also, on the point of 2-3 Fabricate, and Fabricate itself more generally, I have no idea how some of you guys are winning in lists with Stirrings and 0 Fabricate. Do you just not have UWR or BGx in your metagame? I guess in a metagame that can't interact with Belcher at all (something filled with Affinity or Burn or Merfolk or whatever), then you might not need the Fabricates. But against any interactive opponents, you are probably going to lose a Belcher.
Sometimes I don't play Goblin Charbelcher until the turn I can crack it. I know you are a major proponent of Wall of Roots, and I really do see the potential with it, but I tested it, and I don't like the idea of spending 2 mana and not getting a Forest out of it. I know it's really like spending only 1 mana, but it's not the same as Birds of Paradise because most instances you can't play it on turn one. Why this deck is consistent is virtually every card in the deck can find a Forest.
By the way because some were wondering, I've been goldfishing dozens of games with a single Stomping Ground out of curiosity. I'm not doing any fancy math and models, but I'm not feeling it and like my theory predicted, usually it's either win more, in my opening hand, or it's the last land in the deck and if it were a basic, I could have fetched it by now.
Earlier we talked about the idea of a transformational sideboard using efficient beaters against match ups that cause us trouble but most people don't agree with that philosophy and see it as rather gimmicky. I never tried it out to be honest, but a traditional sideboard is great for this deck, because most decks don't have anything in their sideboard to answer Green Belcher.
Here's my most recent list that is only slightly modified from the one I used for my Twin matchup test a few pages back.
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Breeding Pool
Creatures: 20
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Caravan Vigil
4 Lay of the Land
4 Safewright Quest
4 Recross the Paths
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Rampant Growth
3 Fabricate
1 Pithing Needle
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Fog
3 Torpor Orb
3 Nature's Claim
3 Defense Grid
The sideboard still isn't finalized because I'm still not sure about Grid or Cage, but Fog, Orb, and Claim are critical. The maindeck Needle can also be ditched for Into the North, a singleton Harrow, or another toolbox artifact of your choice. Finally, I went -1 Elf and +1 BoP because Birds is strong against Affinity and gives us a better shot at blue mana for our extra Fabricate copy.
This list still maintains a strong BGx matchup and a decent games 2/3 vs. Affinity. Twin is rough and Pod game 1 is a hard one, but the sideboard helps out quite a bit in giving you a post-sideboard shot at winning.
If I see this correctly there is a turn 2 win in this deck? You would have a ton of Forests in your deck but still. This deck would just love an unbanned Chrome Mox.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I've never won on turn 2 even though I have cast a turn 1 Belcher for a turn 2 activation (that didn't hit for lethal). But I have seen turn 3 lethal activations with this in real games, but it is very inconsistent. It's a solidly turn 4 combo deck but, what makes it strong, is how hard it is to interact with the Belcher win condition and how resilient your gameplan is to conventional discard/countermagic/removal.
Oh, and Chrome Mox would be obscene in this deck. Although at this point I would rather have Nature's Lore.
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Lay of the Land
4x Safewright Quest
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Recross the Paths
3x Cultivate
2x Harrow
4x Rampant Growth
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Sylvan Ranger
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Goblin Charbelcher
P.S. I would be tremendously excited if we got a Nature's Lore reprint. That really would be a game changer.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
These would definitely be two automatic inclusions. Imagine how fast this deck would run with only 3 lands and strictly better rampant growth.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
If we are dreaming, how about Elvish Spirit Guide?
I'm a combo junky so I'll brew with this for a bit. I have to think that there is a way to get this to turn 3. I feel that you need to be at turn 3 to be a real contender. Turn 4 should be the worst case scenario.
Why not run a Stomping Ground? maybe 4 for that matter? You could run Farseek and if you flip it it would double the damage.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
You should read over the thread, we went over Stomping Ground. I'm opposed to it because if you draw it in your opening hand, you have to just burn 2 life you wouldn't have had to if you had a regular Forest. Same goes with Recross of the Paths if you hit the Stomping Ground, and this deck really doesn't want to lose life unless it's necessary. Farseek is totally dead if you draw Stomping Ground early, and with 1 land remaining, you still are likely to deal fatal damage even if it's just a regular forest.
Magus of the Vineyard is only good on turn 1 or 2, and it also benefits our opponent. So I'd have to say no on that one. Feel free to test it out though.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
A loss of a mere 2 life to potentially double the damage to an opponent seems very worth it??
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
This question about Ground boils down to how many lands the deck thins, on average, in its games. I started running that test but got distracted by work, so I will go back to it this weekend or week. My theory is that, by the time we activate a Belcher on turn 4, we have on average 5-6 lands thinned from the deck. On turn 3, it would only be 4-5. But I'm not sure if the numbers support that so I will get back to you all. If we had only 5-6 lands in play by turn 4 on average, then we would probably want to add 1 Ground to improve the lethal Belcher chance. But if we can consistently get 7 thinned by turn 4, then it isn't needed. So I'll have to get back to this.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
At least Stomping Ground ensures 20 damage even if you flip only 10 cards, so it doesn't necessarily need to be fetched (Legacy Belcher gets away with not always Land Granting for it).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Congratulations to YQM for Forest Belcher's first 8-man Top 4 appearance! Would YQM be you, ktkenshinx, or someone who liked your list?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I'm not super familiar with this system, so I'm wondering two things:
How did you find this event, and how do you know it is an 8 man event?
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
WOOHOO!!!!! What great news! It wasn't me who piloted that list, even if it was the 2 Fabricate list I used in the Twin matchup. But huge congratulations to whoever got our deck its first MTGDaily exposure.
Amen, HB. Why wouldn't we get excited about our first published match win? It's not new information from a testing standpoint because we knew this deck can win against tier 1 opponents, but it's awesome to have the publicity.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
What are you cutting for those cards? I would be hesitant to ditch any Wall of Roots because they enable an earlier Belcher cast and activation. From the list that placed in the 8man event, my list from the Twin test, we could go -1 Arbor Elf (he tends to die anyway), and -1 Into the North to go +2 on Sylvan Ranger. But I want to have 4 BoP and 3 Fabricate, so those are already the cuts I am making from that list (3 Fabricate is awesome both because our sideboard is full of artifacts and because you need to find your second Belcher quickly).
Also, on the point of 2-3 Fabricate, and Fabricate itself more generally, I have no idea how some of you guys are winning in lists with Stirrings and 0 Fabricate. Do you just not have UWR or BGx in your metagame? I guess in a metagame that can't interact with Belcher at all (something filled with Affinity or Burn or Merfolk or whatever), then you might not need the Fabricates. But against any interactive opponents, you are probably going to lose a Belcher.
Those RG-Tron and Zoo are the ones who placed higher which means one of them beat this deck. RG-Tron may not directly disrupt the combo, but they'll still Pyroclasm your dorks away before using Karn on what few lands you might have.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Sometimes I don't play Goblin Charbelcher until the turn I can crack it. I know you are a major proponent of Wall of Roots, and I really do see the potential with it, but I tested it, and I don't like the idea of spending 2 mana and not getting a Forest out of it. I know it's really like spending only 1 mana, but it's not the same as Birds of Paradise because most instances you can't play it on turn one. Why this deck is consistent is virtually every card in the deck can find a Forest.
By the way because some were wondering, I've been goldfishing dozens of games with a single Stomping Ground out of curiosity. I'm not doing any fancy math and models, but I'm not feeling it and like my theory predicted, usually it's either win more, in my opening hand, or it's the last land in the deck and if it were a basic, I could have fetched it by now.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate