I've been going back through the thread from page 1 trying to find where Harrow and the 8th land were cut to see the reasoning. I think you guys decided the lower land count made it more consistent and Harrow hurt too much on 7 lands because then we can't cast and activate Belcher in the same turn without dorks.
Also it really hurts when we get countered as sacrificing the land is part of the cost not part of the effect. I'd put it back in if it were the other way round.
I think I want the bigger body and resiliency of Endless One, but Thought-Knot Seer probably deserves testing. I don't have any, so I'll stick to Endless One either way (unless Seer drops in price when it rotates out of standard, but it's becoming popular in a few Modern decks now, so...)
Yeah, I like Endless One's flexibility. Both are actually resilient. I just thought having disruption and threat in a single package appeals to me more. Well, we need to test it.
I've been going back through the thread from page 1 trying to find where Harrow and the 8th land were cut to see the reasoning. I think you guys decided the lower land count made it more consistent and Harrow hurt too much on 7 lands because then we can't cast and activate Belcher in the same turn without dorks.
Yup, having the option to just cast and activate Belcher at the same turn is the main reason for sticking to 7 lands. JohnnoCox also has a point, given that the meta is evolving towards UX control/tempo strategies.
Would you stick to 6 Forest/1 Wastes and add the Talisman of Impulses? Or run 7 Forests with them? Probably better to run the Wastes, I guess, I'd hate to have a Reality Smasher in hand and lose my colorless to Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge. I was thinking about cutting Safewright Quest for Traverse the Ulvenwald, too, since Quest can't find my Wastes. I don't have any Traverse at the moment, but I might be able to get some.
I suggest sticking with 6 Forest and 1 Wastes, with 4 Talismans. Also, your point on replacing Safewright Quest with Traverse the Ulvenwald is on point, since you don't have shocklands to search for, which is the main reason Safewright is in the deck.
I haven't played with Serum Powder, but I saw the discussion about it on the last page. Looks interesting.
As micah pointed out, it takes thousands of solitaire games to get used to it. As an experienced user of it, Serum Powder can have a slot in the deck if the deck takes advantage of what it offers, which is to present threats more consistently and ASAP.
I just realized I don't have any Simian Spirit Guides. Should I try to make room? I could cut 1x Vessel of Nascency and 2x Talisman of Impulse, but maybe the chance of speeding up a turn isn't worth the consistency loss. I've already got a playset of SSGs so maybe I'll just goldfish a few dozen times both ways and see which I like better.
I think the cut should be on the land tutors. 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder, 1 Lay of the Land and maybe 1 of Talisman of Impulse for 3 Simian Spirit Guide might do. SSG is one of the reasons I was able to deploy Belcher on turn 2. Also, it gives you an option to put wipes on your sideboard (Firespout, Pyroclasm to name a few), which is also supported by talismans. Your manabase emphasis should be to be able to reliably cast your threats, and your threats require C. Test which suits your playstyle.
Note: my cut suggestion comes from the fact that I really love Vessel of Nascency in this deck, that I don't advocate going less than 4.
Good points, I'll try it all three ways. I'm going out of town, so I've got a couple weeks to goldfish before my next FNM. My meta's pretty competitive, I saw Jund, R/G Tron, Infect, Grixis Control, and Abzan Company with all the money cards last week. I'll let you guys know how it plays. Thanks for the help!
Probably some matchup information on the new meta! I know it's new and thus hard to have much and while the test results section is super super in depth, general recommendations/tips/suggestions/plays for the different matchups would probably go a long way (maybe just keep it to Tier 1 decks?).
The hyper long single post feels like it could read more smoothly / better by splitting it into two/three posts, but that might just be me. If splitting is not possible, maybe throwing large sections into spoiler tags? Centering titles and maybe using colors on them could help too.
I know this mostly seems aesthetic but I feel it contributes to the presence of the deck somehow, I'd be inclined to say it could help catch attention of people just taking a look.
Updated card choices and/or decklists for the two main versions could be good too; I know it's been updated with Traverse for example but I remember reading a few pages back some lists that had nothing to do with what was on the first post, outright stating that several cards listed as options weren't viable/good anymore.
I'm aware there's a section for articles where it's featured, if it's possible one showing videos of the deck being played could be good too - I can't record but I can look for some links if need be.
Thanks for the consideration, ktkx.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vorthos-y Johnny. All will be One
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Well speaking of aesthetics, anyone plan to upgrade to the new goblin charbelcher art?
I like the picture but prefer the old frame (I actually wish it was printed in that lovely Van dike brown...)
I would love to. I really like the new art, but my current copies are signed, so it probably won't happen. I'll probably pick them up to get them signed in the future though I won't be playing with them until then.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
The new art has a nice comic element to it with Black Lotus, Storm Crow (or maybe Birds of Paradise), and other random things flying out of it. It really fits the feel of the deck in my opinion, but, I like my original ones
Edit: looks like a ratchet bomb behind the goblins foot, Im sure the art in person will reveal alot of Easter eggs...if so I may run it over the original.
What I like is that the new art depicts an actual Goblin. I admit at first I do not understand why the card is named that way given the art, but I just imagine that the red ball being fired by the cannon is a bunch of gobbos.
I'm aware there's a section for articles where it's featured, if it's possible one showing videos of the deck being played could be good too - I can't record but I can look for some links if need be.
I've begun adding some videos under the header of "Belcher in Action" I'll continue to record and add videos as I'm able.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Why do so many lists run birds of paradise instead of arbor elf?
I also love Birds with the Boom // Bust technology, but it's significantly worse if you're trying to sweep Affinity's air force. But at least there, BoP gives you a one-turn chump to delay a lethal Inkmoth as you get towards your gamewinning Belcher.
I see a lot of lists running Kitchen Finks in the sideboard, wouldn't Obstinate Baloth be better since it'd be good against both burn and abzan/jund decks?
I see a lot of lists running Kitchen Finks in the sideboard, wouldn't Obstinate Baloth be better since it'd be good against both burn and abzan/jund decks?
Finks comes down one turn earlier (can drop turn 1 on a crazy hand) mostly. Baloth is good too but outside of abzan/jund, it might drop too late if you don't have a crazy hand. Think of it this way, 3 mana is doable on turn 1. 4 mana is really improbable. If you don't drop it on turn 1, the faster you can drop obstinate is Turn 2 on a ramp hand (Forest, Arbor Elf, Mana from Chancellor, Utopia Sprawl) or turn 3 usually. On a crazy hand, you can either get a turn 1 Finks or, with a bit less craziness, turn 2 is doable rather easily (Forest, Mana from Chancellor, Wall of Roots, second forest turn 2 is one of many combination)
But yeah, if you expect both deck types to be popular, Baloth will be a lot better for you than Finks since it will eat a lot more of your opponent's creatures.
/end of response.
So, I've been working on a White based version, with the Endless Horizons backup land removal and I have to say, it is extremely hard to kill if your defender package even shows up the tip of its head. But I currently scoop to Scapeshift or Tron. Any idea of cards I could play?
I currently have Angel's Grace for Ad Nauseam and Scapeshift (somewhat), as well as any rogue combo deck, Defense Grid to prevent control from ruining my game plan, Fracturing Gust for affinity, Spellskite for Boggles and Infect and finally Spirit of the Labyrinth for all thing Storm as well as slow down Living End. I can't find anything to stop Tron though...
I just love the synergy between the Knight/Gift and Path to Exile.
As your current build stands, Tron is really a bad matchup. 12 defender cards without any explosive mana ala Overgrown Battlement leads to a slower game, which is where Tron thrives. I'd say Beast Within is a card that can help slow Tron, either destroying their payoff threats or a tron piece, and is not a drawback since your defenders will just stonewall the Beast token. Although the scry in Judge Unworthy is appealing, I'll replace all of them with it.
Also, although it is not as effective as it is in RG builds, Traverse the Ulvenwald for Lay of the Land. Just a minimal upgrade, but at least it has a lower chance of being a bad top deck late game.
Also it really hurts when we get countered as sacrificing the land is part of the cost not part of the effect. I'd put it back in if it were the other way round.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Yeah, I like Endless One's flexibility. Both are actually resilient. I just thought having disruption and threat in a single package appeals to me more. Well, we need to test it.
Yup, having the option to just cast and activate Belcher at the same turn is the main reason for sticking to 7 lands. JohnnoCox also has a point, given that the meta is evolving towards UX control/tempo strategies.
I suggest sticking with 6 Forest and 1 Wastes, with 4 Talismans. Also, your point on replacing Safewright Quest with Traverse the Ulvenwald is on point, since you don't have shocklands to search for, which is the main reason Safewright is in the deck.
As micah pointed out, it takes thousands of solitaire games to get used to it. As an experienced user of it, Serum Powder can have a slot in the deck if the deck takes advantage of what it offers, which is to present threats more consistently and ASAP.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I just realized I don't have any Simian Spirit Guides. Should I try to make room? I could cut 1x Vessel of Nascency and 2x Talisman of Impulse, but maybe the chance of speeding up a turn isn't worth the consistency loss. I've already got a playset of SSGs so maybe I'll just goldfish a few dozen times both ways and see which I like better.
Note: my cut suggestion comes from the fact that I really love Vessel of Nascency in this deck, that I don't advocate going less than 4.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
Is there anything you would want to see?
The hyper long single post feels like it could read more smoothly / better by splitting it into two/three posts, but that might just be me. If splitting is not possible, maybe throwing large sections into spoiler tags? Centering titles and maybe using colors on them could help too.
I know this mostly seems aesthetic but I feel it contributes to the presence of the deck somehow, I'd be inclined to say it could help catch attention of people just taking a look.
Updated card choices and/or decklists for the two main versions could be good too; I know it's been updated with Traverse for example but I remember reading a few pages back some lists that had nothing to do with what was on the first post, outright stating that several cards listed as options weren't viable/good anymore.
I'm aware there's a section for articles where it's featured, if it's possible one showing videos of the deck being played could be good too - I can't record but I can look for some links if need be.
Thanks for the consideration, ktkx.
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I like the picture but prefer the old frame (I actually wish it was printed in that lovely Van dike brown...)
I would love to. I really like the new art, but my current copies are signed, so it probably won't happen. I'll probably pick them up to get them signed in the future though I won't be playing with them until then.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Edit: looks like a ratchet bomb behind the goblins foot, Im sure the art in person will reveal alot of Easter eggs...if so I may run it over the original.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I've begun adding some videos under the header of "Belcher in Action" I'll continue to record and add videos as I'm able.
GModern Belcher
GGreen Deck Wins
3I'm the King
RBlazeTron
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
I also love Birds with the Boom // Bust technology, but it's significantly worse if you're trying to sweep Affinity's air force. But at least there, BoP gives you a one-turn chump to delay a lethal Inkmoth as you get towards your gamewinning Belcher.
Finks comes down one turn earlier (can drop turn 1 on a crazy hand) mostly. Baloth is good too but outside of abzan/jund, it might drop too late if you don't have a crazy hand. Think of it this way, 3 mana is doable on turn 1. 4 mana is really improbable. If you don't drop it on turn 1, the faster you can drop obstinate is Turn 2 on a ramp hand (Forest, Arbor Elf, Mana from Chancellor, Utopia Sprawl) or turn 3 usually. On a crazy hand, you can either get a turn 1 Finks or, with a bit less craziness, turn 2 is doable rather easily (Forest, Mana from Chancellor, Wall of Roots, second forest turn 2 is one of many combination)
But yeah, if you expect both deck types to be popular, Baloth will be a lot better for you than Finks since it will eat a lot more of your opponent's creatures.
/end of response.
So, I've been working on a White based version, with the Endless Horizons backup land removal and I have to say, it is extremely hard to kill if your defender package even shows up the tip of its head. But I currently scoop to Scapeshift or Tron. Any idea of cards I could play?
2x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Perimeter Captain
4x Pride Guardian
4x Stalwart Shield-Bearers
4x Weathered Wayfarer
Enchantment
2x Assault Formation
3x Endless Horizons
2x Gift of Estates
2x Lay of the Land
3x Recross the Paths
4x Safewright Quest
Instant
4x Judge Unworthy
4x Path to Exile
Land
4x Canopy Vista
6x Plains
4x Goblin Charbelcher
2x Angel's Grace
2x Assault Formation
3x Defense Grid
2x Fracturing Gust
3x Spellskite
3x Spirit of the Labyrinth
I currently have Angel's Grace for Ad Nauseam and Scapeshift (somewhat), as well as any rogue combo deck, Defense Grid to prevent control from ruining my game plan, Fracturing Gust for affinity, Spellskite for Boggles and Infect and finally Spirit of the Labyrinth for all thing Storm as well as slow down Living End. I can't find anything to stop Tron though...
I just love the synergy between the Knight/Gift and Path to Exile.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
Also, although it is not as effective as it is in RG builds, Traverse the Ulvenwald for Lay of the Land. Just a minimal upgrade, but at least it has a lower chance of being a bad top deck late game.
With that said, I really would like to try an Assault Formation build, but I would be going all-in, with Vessel of Nascency toolbox to search for either the Assault or Belcher, or in this case, Endless Horizons. (Note: I really love Vessel of Nascency in any GX Belcher list)
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
why dont use in the forest belcher the primeval titan? he clean the deck of forest no?
Modern:
Forest Belcher
http://deckstats.net/decks/30417/519187-forest-belcher