I'm trying to say that you shouldn't run cards just because there is an off chance that you can use Transverse to find it. Doing stuff to make it possible to activate delirium sounds like it would dilute the deck too much.
Yes, the Delirium is very powerful if you activate it, but the cost of being able to activate it may be too high. It depends on your list, but I'll keep track of how often I can have delirium at some point in a game.
I don't really understand why you are getting so hung up over this whole Delirium thing. We are all just wanting to test it out and see if it is possible to make it work AND still have the deck be as consistent if not more than before. Traverse the Ulvenwald is just the same as Lay of the Land expect it can have delirium. Why not just play it instead for the 1% chance that at some point you can use the delirium effect in some match up. Vessel of Narscency seems like a card that can help find what we want and speed up our deck. It also happens to fall into the delirium. Testing will show if that card is really worth its weight in the deck.
Also you can't just use the "dies to removal" for the reason not to play a card. If that was the case why would we both playing anything in magic? I'm really not trying to sound rude or be a know it all here but you have to know this is a place to discuss the deck in a constructive way and not deny everything that is mentioned because you THINK it would be bad.
"...doesn't belong in the list FOR FINDING CREATURES".
Delirium seems super inconsistent, especially in my list, where it's pretty much creatures and sorceries, with a few artifacts. If you have Vessel, you get enchantment and another way to get creature into the graveyard, and a way to get artifact in the yard at all. Harrow works with it quite well, but I'm really suspicious of putting stuff in so you might hit it with Traverse.
Serum Powder looks like a card you have to play hundreds to THOUSANDS of games with to make it good, at which point it becomes excellent.
First, as ktkenshinx already elaborated, Traverse the Ulvenwald is a Lay of the Land with some sort of bonus, which helps us in the mid-late game. If you're expecting to get Delirium on the first 3-4 turns then you'll always be dissatisfied with that ability. But any, and even minimal, upgrade from Lay of the Land is a welcome addition. Maybe you saw my list (with Oath of Nissa and Vessel of Nascency)which is somewhat trying to push delirium, but what I really want is more dig effects which, in turn, happen to activate delirium also. I'll reference my list here:
Now, on the point of playing Serum Powder, I'll reference the list on my sig.
I have explained that the list (post #1244) where I used it is aiming to have a fast threat (as early as turn 2, but turn 3-4 on average), and I want an optimal hand to do so. I eschewed having control options on that list to make it streamlined as possible, thus the Serum Powder. I would say, at the worst, it is an additional mana to activate Goblin Charbelcher. At best, it gives the player (if played correctly) a better chance of having an early win condition. I have personal tournament experience with the card in the deck, and it came handy in at least 2-3 games I have played. So it does not need a thousand games to be relevant, or to be said to make it good. Maybe if you at least knew Vintage Dredge, you'd have a different opinion of the card.
I think it is useful as is, but shouldn't have anything added in specifically because of the card. Maybe something that you would potentially run anyways, like Vessel, but beyond that seems like a bad idea and diluting the deck.
I think it is useful as is, but shouldn't have anything added in specifically because of the card. Maybe something that you would potentially run anyways, like Vessel, but beyond that seems like a bad idea and diluting the deck.
If you are referring to Serum Powder, testing and actually using it proves that if you want more consistent opening hands, Serum Powder is always an option. It is even used in Vintage Dredge, where the aim is to mulligan just to find that Bazaar of Baghdad.
Also, as you can see, in my post I referenced two different lists, one with Serum Powder, and the other one without. I recognize that if I want to use Serum Powder, I have to build the deck as streamlined as possible. Whereas the list without it allows for more of a slower approach.
Again, I have personal experience with the card as used in Belcher decks. I am welcome to suggestions, but speculating that Serum Powder doesn't have a place in some Belcher list without even testing it is wrong. As you know, MTG is not only a game of skill or deckbuilding prowess, it is also a game of chance. Serum Powder adds a chance to have a fast opening hand.
Now, if you are referring to Traverse the Ulvenwald, I somewhat agree with your point. We both believe that we will not be able to consistently pull off Delirium, or achieve it fast enough, to include silver bullet options. I view Traverse the Ulvenwald as an early game Lay of the Land with a bonus MINOR potential of being an Eladamri's Call. The way I built the first list I referenced is that, it will have at least a chance to somewhat achieve Delirium later in the game, but still focuses on the aspect of filtering the deck of lands, digging of threats and presenting an early threat. If ever Delirium is achieved, then I'll just pull that Wurmcoil Engine or Hangarback Walker and play it.
I was talking about Traverse. If you are running stuff already that help activate it, wooo, it helps out, but don't add cards you wouldn't want otherwise just because you might end up with delirium AND Traverse.
Serum is a card, as I said earlier, that needs to be played about 500-1000 games before you really get the hang of it, which is handy, since this is a goldfishing deck.
I haven't tested Serum Powder yet (I'm not a big fan of the card in general though I do recognise it has potential here), but I have had a chance to do a bunch of testing with Traverse the Ulvenwald. I'm inclined to agree that I wouldn't go adding cards just because we can Traverse for them (I still don't like Huntmaster for example) but I do think it might be worth looking a sideboard cards that are creatures to replace our current instants/sorcerys (eg some number Reclamation Sage over Nature's Claim). I wouldn't make this a total switch (Sage is bad against Inkmoth Nexus), but between Traverse and Vessel of Nascency (which continues to be excellent), we would have a slightly higher chance of getting our silver bullets.
I was talking about Traverse. If you are running stuff already that help activate it, wooo, it helps out, but don't add cards you wouldn't want otherwise just because you might end up with delirium AND Traverse.
Serum is a card, as I said earlier, that needs to be played about 500-1000 games before you really get the hang of it, which is handy, since this is a goldfishing deck.
Yeah, we agree on Traverse. Maybe I did add something that others did not use (Oath of Nissa) but it still has a function similar to Ancient Stirrings.
Regarding Serum Powder, I admit I misunderstood what you said. Sorry for that. I agree, Serum Powder is a card that needs practice to get comfortable with.
I haven't tested Serum Powder yet (I'm not a big fan of the card in general though I do recognise it has potential here), but I have had a chance to do a bunch of testing with Traverse the Ulvenwald. I'm inclined to agree that I wouldn't go adding cards just because we can Traverse for them (I still don't like Huntmaster for example) but I do think it might be worth looking a sideboard cards that are creatures to replace our current instants/sorcerys (eg some number Reclamation Sage over Nature's Claim). I wouldn't make this a total switch (Sage is bad against Inkmoth Nexus), but between Traverse and Vessel of Nascency (which continues to be excellent), we would have a slightly higher chance of getting our silver bullets.
I second the point on Traverse. It is very MINOR that we hit Delirium. We should not ALWAYS expect it to be Eladamri's Call early.
Chancellor of the Tangle trigger is announced after mulligans have been resolved. So, just remember that once both players have agreed to keep their hands, you announce the trigger.
I would say, that you faced some of the deck's worse matchups. I firmly believe Lantern Control and GW Hatebears are decks we will always struggle with.
Lantern Control having discard (for Belcher) and Ensnaring Bridge for our alternate threats/wincons. Hatebears having Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Leonin Arbiter.
On your point regarding Kiki Chord, I also believe in belching defensively, thus shooting their combo creatures.
I do not use/have Blood Moon as of now, but I do love to have one. Having said that, post board we have Nature's Claim to deal with Inkmoth Nexus, and Belcher kills others easily (with manadorks and Sakura-Tribe Elder acting as some sort of roadblocks as we set up for the kill).
Sideboard really depends on the meta in your area, but this all in all is a good list. Previously I had Autumn's Veil until I had Defense Grid. That card always overperforms especially against Grixis Control.
I added the red Vessel and love it. With SSG, Utopia Sprawl, and Manamorphose it is very easy to cast turn one and get a turn 2 Belcher online. I run two Blood Moons in the main as my meta is full of dual or tri color decks, or decks like Tron where a T1 Blood Moon just wreaks havoc. Powering out a Chancellor of the Tangle is my back up plan if Belcher gets stopped and I've added Trash For Treasure to my board along with a few artifacts that can sit in play (Pithing Needle, etc).
I did not take notes of my opening hands, but will try to remember what I did have.
Round 1: vs. Eldrazi Tron Game 1: I'm on the play, he Thought-Knot Seered my Ancient Stirrings on turn 3 I think. I cast Wurmcoil Engine to halt his board of Seer, Matter Reshaper and another creature which I cannot remember. I chained 2 Vessel of Nascencys, reaching Delirium (a land was binned when I got 1 Vessel). He cast the 6cmc eldrazi that searches for an Eldrazi with cmc 7 or greater and got Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I cast another Vessel. He cast Ulamog to exile Wurmcoil and a Utopia Sprawl(a wrong play that he did admit after; he should have exiled the Forest it enchants). I activate Vessel and got a land. I topdecked Ancient Stirrings, cast it, got Goblin Charbelcher, cast it and activate for lethal. Game 2: I was able to cast a turn 2 Belcher. Killed him on the fourth turn. STANDING: 1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: vs. UW Hatebears, featuring Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Aether Vial Game 1: I go first. He mulled down to 6, I mulled down to 5 without a land in hand, but scryed a land on top. I passed the turn without any play. He only had 1 land, no Vial, and never got another land until the 5th turn. I meanwhile developed my board via Vessels, achieved Delirium on the first activation (binning a land, getting Sakura-Tribe Elder). I cast 2 Traverse the Ulvenwald, fetching Wurmcoil Engine, both of which he Path to Exiled. I cast Belcher with just the Stomping Ground as the remaining land in my deck. Game 2: He mulled down to 5, but had a better opening, with Leonin Arbiter on turn 2. I cast Oath of Nissa, getting Sakura-Tribe Elder. Cast two of them, managing my mana to be able to pay to search. He was able to put me down to 8 with attacks from Arbiter and Mutavault, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, blocking one of them with Wall of Roots. I Firespout his board. I was able to cast Chancellor of the Tangle, and beat him down to 9 with it.The next turn, I attacked, he blocked with Mutavault, and was able to find and cast a Goblin Charbelcher for the win. STANDING: 2-0 (4-0)
Game 3: vs. BW Tokens Game 1: I mulled to 5. He took 5 to Thoughtseize my Stirrings. I was able to develop my board, while he was beating me with Lingering Souls tokens buffed with 1 Intangible Virtue. I was able to cast Goblin Charbelcher but have 3 more lands in my deck, while I was down to 1. I tried belching, and hit just for 7. I lost. Game 2: He mulled down to 5 but had a good topdeck. When I was able to cast my Belcher on turn 3, he topdecked Stony Silence. He had a board with 2 flying spirits and 2 soldiers from Raise the Alarm, cast Zealous Persecution. I took 8, then was able to cast Firespout. I cast Wurmcoil Engine, buffed my life a bit, and then on one play, he Duressed and in response, I cast Nature's Claim on his Stony Silence. He died the next turn on Belch for 26. Game 3: We kept our opening hand. He had Shambling Vent, I had an opening Chancellor of the Tangle, cast Utopia Sprawl on a Forest, cast Wall of Roots, cast Safewright Quest to get a basic Forest. He Thoughtseized, getting Ancient Stirrings. I topdecked Belcher, and he promptly died the next turn. STANDING: 3-0 (6-1)
My thoughts:
1. Vessel of Nascency is an all-star, better than Ancient Stirrings in the deck. I cannot believe I was able to accidentally hit Delirium on turn 3, enabling my Traverse the Ulvenwald to get 2 Wurmcoil Engines.
2. Oath of Nissa is fine, given that the list I had have almost 50/50 chance to hit a card (29 creature/land cards out of 60).
3. I will still stick to Wurmcoil Engine, but might ship the Batterskull for another Wurmcoil. Maybe, 4 Wurmcoils and 1 Batterskull.
4. Primal Command is actually a good card in the deck. There was a point wherein I will be able to topdeck one of my opponent's lands and search for Wurmcoil Engine on the 3rd turn; I just didn't do it because I was already holding one, and because I need to cast something that will fetch me another land to cast Wurmcoil.
5. Firespout is nuts. I believe it is better than Kozilek's Return because it deals 3 damage rather than 2. Saved me from being overrun by tokens.
No, getting that turn 1 mana is super important, its not the end of the world if you play Cinder Glade instead but it isn't as good (in this deck)
This. We have very few chances of hitting a land, and the deck heavily leans on turn 1 plays. Having an untapped land on turn 1 is very vital to how the deck functions.
To be honest this deck has taken a bit of a back burner role for me recently whilst I've been working on cruel control for an open here in the UK. I will be getting back to thinking about his deck a bit more post-open.
I run Breeding Pool in paper, but this has been an effective build for me. There are game 1's where either Assault Formation or Belcher aren't seen and surprise opponents game 2. I've also beat people to death with Wall of Roots many times until finding Belcher. Tez was recommended some time ago on here and I've loved playing him in the main to suck up damage or threaten double Belching (or just getting Belcher onto the board)
With the bannings I feel better about running Utopia Sprawl/Arbor Elf again. It wasn't as effective with rampant land destruction tring to control Eldrazi lists.
I recommend y'all try it out and see how effective Assault Formation can be. Hope this helps and Happy Gaming!
To be honest this deck has taken a bit of a back burner role for me recently whilst I've been working on cruel control for an open here in the UK. I will be getting back to thinking about his deck a bit more post-open.
I run Breeding Pool in paper, but this has been an effective build for me. There are game 1's where either Assault Formation or Belcher aren't seen and surprise opponents game 2. I've also beat people to death with Wall of Roots many times until finding Belcher. Tez was recommended some time ago on here and I've loved playing him in the main to suck up damage or threaten double Belching (or just getting Belcher onto the board)
With the bannings I feel better about running Utopia Sprawl/Arbor Elf again. It wasn't as effective with rampant land destruction tring to control Eldrazi lists.
I recommend y'all try it out and see how effective Assault Formation can be. Hope this helps and Happy Gaming!
I've yet to try Assault Formation list (that's the only card from your list that I don't have right now). I would say, Assault Formation lists are good at defending until a Belcher comes, but my preference for this deck is to be able to present threats ASAP. I think if I would try this list, I would be including Vessel of Nascency over Tezzeret the Seeker. It's a turn 1 play vs. turn 3-5, on color (generating UU can be hard sometimes), can get an enchantment(Assault Formation), artifact(Goblin Charbelcher), or creature. Also, I like Sakura-Tribe Elder more than Arbor Elf, as it thins our deck and can absorb some damage. Anyways, thanks for sharing!
Thanks for commenting. I build that list to play online mostly because it was cheap, the sideboard is also cheap and incomplete as I trade cards out. Currently the core of the sideboard I have is:
I was running Vessel of Nascency, but I didn't like it very much. It could be an early play but didn't seem to do as much in my opinion to make a difference in a game. I also don't really care too much about getting delirium online so the enchantment factor didn't matter either. I could test with it more, maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.
In paper I run Spellskite and Ensnaring Bridge as a three of each in the main. It makes Tez a lot more relevant to get some answers or Belcher or reactivate Belcher. UU isn't too hard to enable with either version (MTGO has 12 potential U sources and in paper I have 14 thanks to Breeding Pool). My paper list looks something like this (I'm away from home on business for the next few weeks):
Now I can see why you have Tezzeret over there... I think you are correct in not including Vessel of Nascency in your list, as you are more defensive than the traditional Belcher list due to high defender creatures density.
Regarding the sideboard, I expected it to be different as well, because your main is a bit weak against Burn due to the lack of lifelink creatures. Also, I'm afraid of having two non-Mountain forests out there, as virtually there's only four cards that can fetch them. But again, the gameplay is a bit more grindier than the traditional list. I admit, I must give your list a try because I don't have any experience using Assault Formation.
I've been following this deck for a while (2014, I think?) and wanted to try the Wastes/Eldrazi splash, mostly because paper Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull are expensive and I don't like Hangerback Walker.
The singleton Wastes hurts our odds at a good opening hand, so I was wondering about ways of getting around it. I'm leaning towards (-1 Wastes, -4 Utopia Sprawl, +4 Talisman of Impulse, +1 Forest), using Talisman to cast Reality Smasher even though it's quite a bit slower than Utopia Sprawl and doesn't dodge Artifact hate. It's also findable with Ancient Stirrings. I'm leaning towards playing the list I have because I don't have any Talisman of Impulse at the moment, but I could probably pick some up (they're dirt cheap) and test it.
I could also try going (-2 Rampant Growth, -2 Recross the Paths, -1 Wastes, +4 Talisman of Impulse, +1 Forest). I haven't gotten a chance to play much yet, so I was hoping to get some insight from people who have more experience with the deck. What do you think?
Wastes is actually a basic land, it just doesn't make green mana so it forces a mulligan if it's the only mana source in the opening hand (can't cast land fetches or Birds off of it). It might be worth testing in the decks running Breeding Pool with Stomping Ground, though.
I've been thinking about cutting a single Vessel of Nascency and playing a Stomping Ground (for 8 total lands), but I don't know what that will do to my consistency in firing Belcher with 0 lands in library.
Maybe I could go to the earlier 8 land + Harrow lists, or play 7 Forests + Wastes + Nissa's Pilgrimage instead of Recross the Paths? I'm afraid the three mana land fetches are too slow, though. At least Recross is an impromptu tutor if Stirrings whiffs with all the lands in play.
Nice list out there Silvercry! Though I think Thought-Knot Seer is better than Endless One; Testing needed to prove which is better though. Both have pros and cons...
I'll stick with your current mana base instead of going 8 lands. But if you like statistics, just find the post by LILI regarding this...
I haven't liked Recross the Paths; The rearranging is powerful, but by my experience, the deck has so many shuffle effects that I find it unnecessary to rearrange the bottom of the deck. I suggest you try Talisman of Impulse replacing both Rampant Growth and Recross the Paths. It actually functions like Wall of Roots 5-8.
Your list actually made me wonder about the list I was using before that uses Serum Powder. I do not suggest using it if you haven't used it before, but if you have experience with the card, it might be a good option.
I think I want the bigger body and resiliency of Endless One, but Thought-Knot Seer probably deserves testing. I don't have any, so I'll stick to Endless One either way (unless Seer drops in price when it rotates out of standard, but it's becoming popular in a few Modern decks now, so...)
I've been going back through the thread from page 1 trying to find where Harrow and the 8th land were cut to see the reasoning. I think you guys decided the lower land count made it more consistent and Harrow hurt too much on 7 lands because then we can't cast and activate Belcher in the same turn without dorks.
Would you stick to 6 Forest/1 Wastes and add the Talisman of Impulses? Or run 7 Forests with them? Probably better to run the Wastes, I guess, I'd hate to have a Reality Smasher in hand and lose my colorless to Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge. I was thinking about cutting Safewright Quest for Traverse the Ulvenwald, too, since Quest can't find my Wastes. I don't have any Traverse at the moment, but I might be able to get some.
I haven't played with Serum Powder, but I saw the discussion about it on the last page. Looks interesting.
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Yes, the Delirium is very powerful if you activate it, but the cost of being able to activate it may be too high. It depends on your list, but I'll keep track of how often I can have delirium at some point in a game.
Also you can't just use the "dies to removal" for the reason not to play a card. If that was the case why would we both playing anything in magic? I'm really not trying to sound rude or be a know it all here but you have to know this is a place to discuss the deck in a constructive way and not deny everything that is mentioned because you THINK it would be bad.
GWU Eldrazi
BRG Living End
WBG JunkFit
First, as ktkenshinx already elaborated, Traverse the Ulvenwald is a Lay of the Land with some sort of bonus, which helps us in the mid-late game. If you're expecting to get Delirium on the first 3-4 turns then you'll always be dissatisfied with that ability. But any, and even minimal, upgrade from Lay of the Land is a welcome addition. Maybe you saw my list (with Oath of Nissa and Vessel of Nascency)which is somewhat trying to push delirium, but what I really want is more dig effects which, in turn, happen to activate delirium also. I'll reference my list here:
6x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Stomping Ground
Creature(22)
2x Hangarback Walker
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Wall of Roots
2x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Goblin Charbelcher
Enchantment(12):
4x Oath of Nissa
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Vessel of Nascency
Sorcery(15):
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Caravan Vigil
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Safewright Quest
3x Nature's Claim
1x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Defense Grid
3x Kozilek's Return
2x Choke
1x Fracturing Gust
2x Leyline of Sanctity
Now, on the point of playing Serum Powder, I'll reference the list on my sig.
I have explained that the list (post #1244) where I used it is aiming to have a fast threat (as early as turn 2, but turn 3-4 on average), and I want an optimal hand to do so. I eschewed having control options on that list to make it streamlined as possible, thus the Serum Powder. I would say, at the worst, it is an additional mana to activate Goblin Charbelcher. At best, it gives the player (if played correctly) a better chance of having an early win condition. I have personal tournament experience with the card in the deck, and it came handy in at least 2-3 games I have played. So it does not need a thousand games to be relevant, or to be said to make it good. Maybe if you at least knew Vintage Dredge, you'd have a different opinion of the card.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
If you are referring to Serum Powder, testing and actually using it proves that if you want more consistent opening hands, Serum Powder is always an option. It is even used in Vintage Dredge, where the aim is to mulligan just to find that Bazaar of Baghdad.
Also, as you can see, in my post I referenced two different lists, one with Serum Powder, and the other one without. I recognize that if I want to use Serum Powder, I have to build the deck as streamlined as possible. Whereas the list without it allows for more of a slower approach.
Again, I have personal experience with the card as used in Belcher decks. I am welcome to suggestions, but speculating that Serum Powder doesn't have a place in some Belcher list without even testing it is wrong. As you know, MTG is not only a game of skill or deckbuilding prowess, it is also a game of chance. Serum Powder adds a chance to have a fast opening hand.
Now, if you are referring to Traverse the Ulvenwald, I somewhat agree with your point. We both believe that we will not be able to consistently pull off Delirium, or achieve it fast enough, to include silver bullet options. I view Traverse the Ulvenwald as an early game Lay of the Land with a bonus MINOR potential of being an Eladamri's Call. The way I built the first list I referenced is that, it will have at least a chance to somewhat achieve Delirium later in the game, but still focuses on the aspect of filtering the deck of lands, digging of threats and presenting an early threat. If ever Delirium is achieved, then I'll just pull that Wurmcoil Engine or Hangarback Walker and play it.
I will be updating the Serum Powder list, replacing Lay of the Land with Traverse the Ulvenwald just because functionally they are the same.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Serum is a card, as I said earlier, that needs to be played about 500-1000 games before you really get the hang of it, which is handy, since this is a goldfishing deck.
Yeah, we agree on Traverse. Maybe I did add something that others did not use (Oath of Nissa) but it still has a function similar to Ancient Stirrings.
Regarding Serum Powder, I admit I misunderstood what you said. Sorry for that. I agree, Serum Powder is a card that needs practice to get comfortable with.
I second the point on Traverse. It is very MINOR that we hit Delirium. We should not ALWAYS expect it to be Eladamri's Call early.
I like your point regarding the sideboard. If we are to include Vessel of Nascency, creature answers seems more plausible (and this is not because of Delirium-enabled Traverse the Ulvenwald). Cards like Reclamation Sage does double-duty, as it is a body we can chump-block with while we are setting up Belcher and also answers problems like Pithing Needle, Leyline of Sanctity and Spellskite.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I would say, that you faced some of the deck's worse matchups. I firmly believe Lantern Control and GW Hatebears are decks we will always struggle with.
Lantern Control having discard (for Belcher) and Ensnaring Bridge for our alternate threats/wincons. Hatebears having Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Leonin Arbiter.
On your point regarding Kiki Chord, I also believe in belching defensively, thus shooting their combo creatures.
I do not use/have Blood Moon as of now, but I do love to have one. Having said that, post board we have Nature's Claim to deal with Inkmoth Nexus, and Belcher kills others easily (with manadorks and Sakura-Tribe Elder acting as some sort of roadblocks as we set up for the kill).
Sideboard really depends on the meta in your area, but this all in all is a good list. Previously I had Autumn's Veil until I had Defense Grid. That card always overperforms especially against Grixis Control.
Can you post the main deck list you are using?
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
6 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Stomping Ground
Creature(22)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Thragtusk
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Batterskull
Enchantment (11)
3 Oath of Nissa
4 Vessel of Nascency
4 Utopia Sprawl
Sorcery (15)
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Caravan Vigil
4 Safewright Quest
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Primal Command
4 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Choke
3 Firespout
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Fracturing Gust
Primal Command and Thragtusk was there because I was not able to borrow another Wurmcoil Engine and another Batterskull. I lack 1 Traverse the Ulvenwald, should have replaced 1 Sakura-Tribe Elder.
I did not take notes of my opening hands, but will try to remember what I did have.
Round 1: vs. Eldrazi Tron
Game 1: I'm on the play, he Thought-Knot Seered my Ancient Stirrings on turn 3 I think. I cast Wurmcoil Engine to halt his board of Seer, Matter Reshaper and another creature which I cannot remember. I chained 2 Vessel of Nascencys, reaching Delirium (a land was binned when I got 1 Vessel). He cast the 6cmc eldrazi that searches for an Eldrazi with cmc 7 or greater and got Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger. I cast another Vessel. He cast Ulamog to exile Wurmcoil and a Utopia Sprawl(a wrong play that he did admit after; he should have exiled the Forest it enchants). I activate Vessel and got a land. I topdecked Ancient Stirrings, cast it, got Goblin Charbelcher, cast it and activate for lethal.
Game 2: I was able to cast a turn 2 Belcher. Killed him on the fourth turn.
STANDING: 1-0 (2-0)
Round 2: vs. UW Hatebears, featuring Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Aether Vial
Game 1: I go first. He mulled down to 6, I mulled down to 5 without a land in hand, but scryed a land on top. I passed the turn without any play. He only had 1 land, no Vial, and never got another land until the 5th turn. I meanwhile developed my board via Vessels, achieved Delirium on the first activation (binning a land, getting Sakura-Tribe Elder). I cast 2 Traverse the Ulvenwald, fetching Wurmcoil Engine, both of which he Path to Exiled. I cast Belcher with just the Stomping Ground as the remaining land in my deck.
Game 2: He mulled down to 5, but had a better opening, with Leonin Arbiter on turn 2. I cast Oath of Nissa, getting Sakura-Tribe Elder. Cast two of them, managing my mana to be able to pay to search. He was able to put me down to 8 with attacks from Arbiter and Mutavault, and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, blocking one of them with Wall of Roots. I Firespout his board. I was able to cast Chancellor of the Tangle, and beat him down to 9 with it.The next turn, I attacked, he blocked with Mutavault, and was able to find and cast a Goblin Charbelcher for the win.
STANDING: 2-0 (4-0)
Game 3: vs. BW Tokens
Game 1: I mulled to 5. He took 5 to Thoughtseize my Stirrings. I was able to develop my board, while he was beating me with Lingering Souls tokens buffed with 1 Intangible Virtue. I was able to cast Goblin Charbelcher but have 3 more lands in my deck, while I was down to 1. I tried belching, and hit just for 7. I lost.
Game 2: He mulled down to 5 but had a good topdeck. When I was able to cast my Belcher on turn 3, he topdecked Stony Silence. He had a board with 2 flying spirits and 2 soldiers from Raise the Alarm, cast Zealous Persecution. I took 8, then was able to cast Firespout. I cast Wurmcoil Engine, buffed my life a bit, and then on one play, he Duressed and in response, I cast Nature's Claim on his Stony Silence. He died the next turn on Belch for 26.
Game 3: We kept our opening hand. He had Shambling Vent, I had an opening Chancellor of the Tangle, cast Utopia Sprawl on a Forest, cast Wall of Roots, cast Safewright Quest to get a basic Forest. He Thoughtseized, getting Ancient Stirrings. I topdecked Belcher, and he promptly died the next turn.
STANDING: 3-0 (6-1)
My thoughts:
1. Vessel of Nascency is an all-star, better than Ancient Stirrings in the deck. I cannot believe I was able to accidentally hit Delirium on turn 3, enabling my Traverse the Ulvenwald to get 2 Wurmcoil Engines.
2. Oath of Nissa is fine, given that the list I had have almost 50/50 chance to hit a card (29 creature/land cards out of 60).
3. I will still stick to Wurmcoil Engine, but might ship the Batterskull for another Wurmcoil. Maybe, 4 Wurmcoils and 1 Batterskull.
4. Primal Command is actually a good card in the deck. There was a point wherein I will be able to topdeck one of my opponent's lands and search for Wurmcoil Engine on the 3rd turn; I just didn't do it because I was already holding one, and because I need to cast something that will fetch me another land to cast Wurmcoil.
5. Firespout is nuts. I believe it is better than Kozilek's Return because it deals 3 damage rather than 2. Saved me from being overrun by tokens.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
This. We have very few chances of hitting a land, and the deck heavily leans on turn 1 plays. Having an untapped land on turn 1 is very vital to how the deck functions.
What's your latest list, TheCommunistManatee?
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
7 Forest
Creatures
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Elvish Mystic
4 Wall of Roots
4 Sylvan Carayid
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Traverse the Ulvanwald
4 Lay of the Land
4 Caravan Vigil
Other stuff
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Assault Formation
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
I run Breeding Pool in paper, but this has been an effective build for me. There are game 1's where either Assault Formation or Belcher aren't seen and surprise opponents game 2. I've also beat people to death with Wall of Roots many times until finding Belcher. Tez was recommended some time ago on here and I've loved playing him in the main to suck up damage or threaten double Belching (or just getting Belcher onto the board)
With the bannings I feel better about running Utopia Sprawl/Arbor Elf again. It wasn't as effective with rampant land destruction tring to control Eldrazi lists.
I recommend y'all try it out and see how effective Assault Formation can be. Hope this helps and Happy Gaming!
I see, noted. Well, good luck to you then!
I've yet to try Assault Formation list (that's the only card from your list that I don't have right now). I would say, Assault Formation lists are good at defending until a Belcher comes, but my preference for this deck is to be able to present threats ASAP. I think if I would try this list, I would be including Vessel of Nascency over Tezzeret the Seeker. It's a turn 1 play vs. turn 3-5, on color (generating UU can be hard sometimes), can get an enchantment(Assault Formation), artifact(Goblin Charbelcher), or creature. Also, I like Sakura-Tribe Elder more than Arbor Elf, as it thins our deck and can absorb some damage. Anyways, thanks for sharing!
P.S. Can you include your sideboard? Thanks!
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Thanks for commenting. I build that list to play online mostly because it was cheap, the sideboard is also cheap and incomplete as I trade cards out. Currently the core of the sideboard I have is:
3 Sun Droplet
4 Nature's Claim
I shift between Guttural Response and Autumn's Veil. I don't know which I like better at the moment. Sun Droplet is my burn answer. Nature's Claim is my Wx deck answer to potential Leylines.
I was running Vessel of Nascency, but I didn't like it very much. It could be an early play but didn't seem to do as much in my opinion to make a difference in a game. I also don't really care too much about getting delirium online so the enchantment factor didn't matter either. I could test with it more, maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance.
In paper I run Spellskite and Ensnaring Bridge as a three of each in the main. It makes Tez a lot more relevant to get some answers or Belcher or reactivate Belcher. UU isn't too hard to enable with either version (MTGO has 12 potential U sources and in paper I have 14 thanks to Breeding Pool). My paper list looks something like this (I'm away from home on business for the next few weeks):
2x Breeding Pool
4x Forest
1x Stomping Ground
Creatures:
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Overgrown Battlement
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Wall of Roots
3x Spellskite
4x Assault Formation
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Safewright Quest
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Tezzeret the Seeker
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Goblin Charbelcher
Regarding the sideboard, I expected it to be different as well, because your main is a bit weak against Burn due to the lack of lifelink creatures. Also, I'm afraid of having two non-Mountain forests out there, as virtually there's only four cards that can fetch them. But again, the gameplay is a bit more grindier than the traditional list. I admit, I must give your list a try because I don't have any experience using Assault Formation.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I've been following this deck for a while (2014, I think?) and wanted to try the Wastes/Eldrazi splash, mostly because paper Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull are expensive and I don't like Hangerback Walker.
My current build looks like this:
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Wall of Roots
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
4x Chancellor of the Tangle
3x Endless One
2x Reality Smasher
Sorceries: 20
4x Ancient Stirrings
4x Safewright Quest
4x Caravan Vigil
4x Lay of the Land
2x Recross the Paths
2x Rampant Growth
4x Vessel of Nascency
4x Utopia Sprawl
Artifacts: 4
4x Goblin Charbelcher
Land: 7
6x Forest
1x Wastes
3x Pithing Needle
4x Nihil Spellbomb
4x Nature's Claim
4x Autumn's Veil
I could also try going (-2 Rampant Growth, -2 Recross the Paths, -1 Wastes, +4 Talisman of Impulse, +1 Forest). I haven't gotten a chance to play much yet, so I was hoping to get some insight from people who have more experience with the deck. What do you think?
I've been thinking about cutting a single Vessel of Nascency and playing a Stomping Ground (for 8 total lands), but I don't know what that will do to my consistency in firing Belcher with 0 lands in library.
Maybe I could go to the earlier 8 land + Harrow lists, or play 7 Forests + Wastes + Nissa's Pilgrimage instead of Recross the Paths? I'm afraid the three mana land fetches are too slow, though. At least Recross is an impromptu tutor if Stirrings whiffs with all the lands in play.
I'll stick with your current mana base instead of going 8 lands. But if you like statistics, just find the post by LILI regarding this...
I haven't liked Recross the Paths; The rearranging is powerful, but by my experience, the deck has so many shuffle effects that I find it unnecessary to rearrange the bottom of the deck. I suggest you try Talisman of Impulse replacing both Rampant Growth and Recross the Paths. It actually functions like Wall of Roots 5-8.
Your list actually made me wonder about the list I was using before that uses Serum Powder. I do not suggest using it if you haven't used it before, but if you have experience with the card, it might be a good option.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I've been going back through the thread from page 1 trying to find where Harrow and the 8th land were cut to see the reasoning. I think you guys decided the lower land count made it more consistent and Harrow hurt too much on 7 lands because then we can't cast and activate Belcher in the same turn without dorks.
Would you stick to 6 Forest/1 Wastes and add the Talisman of Impulses? Or run 7 Forests with them? Probably better to run the Wastes, I guess, I'd hate to have a Reality Smasher in hand and lose my colorless to Abrupt Decay or Ancient Grudge. I was thinking about cutting Safewright Quest for Traverse the Ulvenwald, too, since Quest can't find my Wastes. I don't have any Traverse at the moment, but I might be able to get some.
I haven't played with Serum Powder, but I saw the discussion about it on the last page. Looks interesting.