Vendilion Clique: I'm a fan of 1-of Clique. He honestly is quite underwhelming against enough decks that you'd never want to see 2 in a hand. With just 1 you get his benefits without worrying about the Legendary drawback. It's got a small amount of game against a decent amount of decks, and works well with all the countermagic people are finally starting to play, but a 3/1 flier for 3 in Modern isn't always the best.
Lingering Souls: I've always liked this card against Affinity + Jund. But against stuff like Tron/Twin/Scapeshift it's pretty dead. Basically, if you need help against the fair decks of the format, it's a great card. If you know the metagame, include it. Against the unfair decks it's a laughable clock, and you'd rather have something else. Best non-zur card in the deck against Affinity.
Snapcaster Mage: People aren't playing Serum Visions anymore, and I think that's a key card to use if you want to include SM, but he's just great against so many decks that I'd rather see him in there than the random utility enchantments that don't do much. Speaking of which...
Thassa: Still bad. Always has been, but "danger of the new" is roping people in to wasting that slot. Scry is worse than draw, unblockable isn't necessary if you would have just put Steel on instead of fished out the goddess, and the amount of scenarios where you could ever get her active as a creature is downright laughable.
Overgrown Tomb: I still like this better than Breeding Pool for the sole reason that you only have to leave 1 land untapped to threaten DRS's end of turn abililty. It lets you match other people's DRS's (respond to their ability with yours) without wasting tons of lands each turn.
It's weird that people are picking up this deck, since it didn't get any cards since RTR
guess i'll watch the videos
I've been playing it since the beginning of Modern, where it would frequently lose to a Bloodbraid Elf. The deck didn't need new cards it just needed that one to be banned (BBE is frequently the blue-stomper). Also, no one picked it up because no one read MTG The Source where the list was posted 2 years ago. It took Gerry T + LSV to write about it (due to me placing with it on MTGO and that list being distributed) for anyone to get interest.
As an exciting side note, you guys are 1 MTGO Daily placement away from getting promoted to the Established section of the forum! Good luck in the next few weeks; you have until the January ban announcement, around the 27th, to get that last 4-0/3-1 finish in.
has placed 5 times on MTGO Goldfish now, not including the time i went 3-1 on Dec 19th.
Deathrite Shaman ban doesn't hit us too hard. I'll update the primer to reflect that in deck choices. I have more recently been playing a version without him anyway.
Bitterblossom is an interesting option now that I could see helping us. It brings out chump blockers and can do great things against control decks, but against burn style and fast decks it isn't nearly as good. It also doesn't provide a very fast clock like we'd want against Tron and other combo. I like this far more than I liked Thassa in the deck.
As for Nacatl, I'm not sure a deck that runs that is necessarily going to be a worse problem for us than anything else. We'll have to see as the format adapts.
Regarding Abrupt Decay, our best out to it is probably Spellskite.
So the current list is heavier on hand disruption? It seems pretty reasonable, and helpful for the matchup against control or Tron. Meddling Mage seems reasonable against Tron (naming Pyroclasm or Firespout). I take it Zur is fetching Bitterblossom most of the time now? (I'd like to point out that Bitterblossom's price is falling fast. TCGplayer low is now closer to 50).
The list looks a bit weird, probably because it differs so much from the more recent lists, but I recognize the ideas from earlier in the thread and everything looks sound, at least in theory.
I'm wondering what your sideboard looks like, even though that may be premature with the meta just getting shaken up.
I have a few guesses for contenders in the future format:
Zoo (Naya, Gruul splashing White, Domain Zoo all come to mind):
2 Kitchen Finks like older lists, and then maybe more cards if that doesn't do the job.
Faeries post-bitterblossom: Mistbind Clique is a beating if it shows up before Zur or Geist does. Anything that gives multiple creatures -toughness will cause them problems. Do we want to be strange and run Orzhov Pontiff, or Zealous Persecution?
Admittedly, -toughness effects aren't foolproof. Mistbind Clique, Sower of Temptation, and Mutavault survive, as do other faeries if there are at least 2 Scion of Oona. But, we might not even have to worry about Sower or Scion. There are lists being thrown around that use only Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, and Spellstuter SPrite as their creatures.
Jund/Junk: Even without DRS, the goodstuff deck will still exist in some form. The same stuff that was good against them before is still good against them now.
Tron: Making room for Tectonic edge and Mindcensor in the main goes a long way for the matchup, but I don't know what else we could do besides try to Thoughtseize and Geist early. Spreading Seas is no longer an option for us. Also, what does Far/Away do vs Tron? Is it just creature bounces for us, and a reliable way to kill Emrakul? I suppose that's good enough to warrant inclusion, but I want confirmation that I'm looking at it right.
Re: Abrupt Decay: I don't think that the axing of Deathrite means there will be more Abrupt Decay. Yes, BB is a thing now, but for the most part I see a decline of GBx in the near future. Either way, that matchup will play out about the same as it always has (protect yourself from being blown out by an Abrupt Decay and don't be 'surprised' by it). I don't think anything will be necessary to protect against it, since DRS is gone. Spellskite has always been a good sideboard card in the right situation, so I wouldn't discourage that yet.
The new list has actually been one I've been playing since before DRS ban. I've shuffled a couple cards to get more Snapcasters and Bitterblossoms in, so I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but I do like it. DRS getting axed means we don't have as much use for Disfigure in the maindeck. Also, if Wild Nacatl becomes popular, Disfigure would be a poor removal choice.
As you said I don't really have a solid sideboard as I foresee changes in the meta that I can't predict right now, and the cool part of Zur is that no matter what deck comes there's probably an enchantment for 3 or less that will help against it.
Kitchen Finks should definitely make an inclusion now, as it won't be eaten on reentry as frequently and Zoo decks will be more popular. Something extra to fight tokens may be in order, but that may be as simple as adding more Detention Spheres. Ghostly Prison is quite good against this style of deck since they have to choose between a small amount of damage per turn or countering your spells.
Tron is much more manageable with things like Mage and Aven Mindcensor. Much of the strategy behind beating Tron is to stop them with tiny annoyances at a time instead of something like Armageddon. Far/Away has the added bonus of taking out Emrakul (wishful thinking), but really is just helpful in many situations (against opposing Geists, saving your creature from a board wipe, resetting Snapcaster, etc.). Just making sure all of your cards have some relevance is a great way to stop them from going nuts on you.
I don't think Bitterblossom is the go to search card at all. If you're in a position where you kept Zur on the table, you are most likely going to want to race your opponent. That means 1) remove their threat with D Sphere or 2) Equip a creature with Steel and keep swinging. Bitterblossom is such a slow clock that getting one out on turn 5 is rarely the right choice. It's the right choice against long grindy decks, probably, but that's situation dependent.
I'll have to test more before I get a solid sideboard decided but if I had to say something right now I'd go with:
So Zur should be able to tutor out Spirit of the Labyrinth which makes for a really powerful sideboard effect against lots of decks, probably worth maindecking 1 or even 2 at least as a toolbox option. The only card draw zur really plays is remand, which is cast on opponent's turn half the time anyway, and gitaxian probe in some lists. Seems like a much better option than Thassa to try out.
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I think everyones agreed on Thassa being bad here, although people do keep trying to justify it. Spirit of the Labyrinth is decent but its ability blanks against most of the decks in the format. Even blue/red decks get away with Slight of Hand due to the card wording. It's okay vs Tron, I guess, and being a 3/1 for 2 isn't bad, but most of the time you wouldn't fetch out a 3/1 creature with a Zur trigger.
The being 3/1 for 2 does interest me, it's worth trying out.
Tron: Making room for Tectonic edge and Mindcensor in the main goes a long way for the matchup, but I don't know what else we could do besides try to Thoughtseize and Geist early. Spreading Seas is no longer an option for us. Also, what does Far/Away do vs Tron? Is it just creature bounces for us, and a reliable way to kill Emrakul? I suppose that's good enough to warrant inclusion, but I want confirmation that I'm looking at it right.
What do you mean by the bolded? No longer main-deckable because of the potential of a lot of aggro running around?
Re:
Tron is much more manageable with things like Mage and Aven Mindcensor. Much of the strategy behind beating Tron is to stop them with tiny annoyances at a time instead of something like Armageddon. Far/Away has the added bonus of taking out Emrakul (wishful thinking), but really is just helpful in many situations (against opposing Geists, saving your creature from a board wipe, resetting Snapcaster, etc.). Just making sure all of your cards have some relevance is a great way to stop them from going nuts on you.
I don't think Bitterblossom is the go to search card at all. If you're in a position where you kept Zur on the table, you are most likely going to want to race your opponent. That means 1) remove their threat with D Sphere or 2) Equip a creature with Steel and keep swinging. Bitterblossom is such a slow clock that getting one out on turn 5 is rarely the right choice. It's the right choice against long grindy decks, probably, but that's situation dependent.
I'll have to test more before I get a solid sideboard decided but if I had to say something right now I'd go with:
A lot of 2-ofs since the format is in flux right now.
What do you think of Tidehollow Sculler? Didn't you used to run some in your list? I know some of the most recent lists have been using them, and I've been running them as a 3-of. They're pretty nifty. Like the ability, and the body is alright -- sometimes good, sometimes a drawback.
What do you think of Tidehollow Sculler? Didn't you used to run some in your list? I know some of the most recent lists have been using them, and I've been running them as a 3-of. They're pretty nifty. Like the ability, and the body is alright -- sometimes good, sometimes a drawback.
Good question, I have used Tidehollow Sculler in the past and in terms of him versus Meddling Mage (since that's generally the choice you have to make), I would tend to go with Tidehollow not considering everything else. The reason is that Meddling Mage only sometimes stops a deck from using a card whereas Tidehollow will always stop them from using a single card. The drawback of MM is that you need information to use him well. There's always something to be said about just knowing the decks you are playing against and what cards they have that you're afraid of, but seeing the opponent's hand makes MM far better than just naming a single card since Modern is full of similar cards with different names. With the added hand hate or Remands filling the hole that DRS banning left us, we have more information than before (with snapcaster able to reuse these as well), making Meddling Mage marginally better.
All of that said, I would prefer Tidehollow even with the above paragraph being true. The reason is basically virtual card advantage vs real card advantage. If your entire goal is to just play Zur and ride him to victory, and you're playing against a deck with multiple kill spells, playing Meddling Mage is actually worse than Tidehollow. For the situation that the opponent has Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt in their hand, Tidehollow gives you the advantage of choosing either play depending on the situation. Here's why:
Opponent + you are in turn 3/4 no one has a massive threat yet. You know they are playing UWR control, and are able to land your 2 drop Tidehollow/Meddling Mage. Your goal is to play and protect Zur. With Meddling Mage and imperfect information, you might name any of their 3 main removal spells Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and Path to Exile. In this case I'd probably name Path to Exile, since playing Zur is your main goal and you're not sure what else they could do to kill Meddling Mage right now. If you had Tidehollow, you see their hand and get to remove one of their cards until they kill him. In this situation you could either take Path to Exile or their Lightning Bolt, taking Path just forces them to play the bolt on your Tidehollow and Path Zur later, whereas taking bolt may get them to use their path to exile (one of their only ways to deal with Zur) on your tidehollow, at least if they're in a situation where they can't deal with him. This gives you a way to outplay your opponent that just knowing their options with Meddling Mage didn't -- the ability to make them waste their good spell on Zur. It gives you the added information of knowing that they have a Path in their hand so that you don't waste Zur until you get another discard spell. The same exact scenario can be said with the opponent having Abrupt Decay + Maelstrom Pulse + Dark Blast (which hits MM but not Zur).
So that added benefit is why I used to play Tidehollow, and I continue to think he's a great option, but with the changing metagame now I think Meddling Mage is slightly better. The first reason is that against a Bitterblossom deck, a Tidehollow can never attack (even with Steel on him). With Steel on Meddling Mage, you get the unblockable clause, which really helps. Another main reason is that I foresee a large increase in UR storm being played, where you can name one of their bounce spells or even win conditions depending on the situation, and they can't play it even from the graveyard (which Tidehollow can't stop). The more draw spells people play, the better Meddling Mage tends to be in comparison to Tidehollow, since discard can never stop someone from top decking.
Lastly, without Disfigure being needed to kill opposing DRS and without us having our own DRSs to play, we can choose our first land to be Hallowed Fountain over Watery Grave, making our land light hands easier to play. That'll let you play Meddling Mage on low land hands far easier than Tidehollow.
Sorry for the ridiculously long response, I just wanted to make sure I explained the subtlety as I see it.
Deitel: I mean that Spreading Seas isn't effective unless it's run as a 3 or 4-of, and since Phoenix's list no longer maindecks Spreading Seas, I don't think it's worth it as a sideboard option because it would take up too much room. I don't know whether or not it would still be good to maindeck it, though the aggro decks are an important consideration.
I'm not a fan of the card because it's not even good against the deck you'd want it against.
Decks it's bad against:
Aggro of any kind
UR combo
Twin
Decks you would not sideboard it in/would sideboard it out against:
Merfolk
2 color decks (BG, WB tokens, etc)
Mono color decks (except maybe the Nykthos versions)
Decks you'd marginally want it in against:
Tron
control featuring manlands
greedy manabases.
Against Tron you have so much better things to be doing on turn 2 than slowing them down marginally. Remand, Meddling Mage, Thoughtseize + Serum Visions, maybe even bitterblossom depending on their land set up. Giving them a blue mana instead of colorless doesn't do much, and they have so many redundant ways to assemble Tron that you're generally just wasting your turn to slow them down a turn. That doesn't mean it's awful, it's like a turn for a turn usually, but it does 'water down' (hah, pun intended) your deck to have them in there. And if it's a "for tron" sideboard card there are so many better options.
Against control it's fine, but not really an all star. Against greedy manabases (5-color Tribal Flames style decks) it's actually probably one of the best cards you have. But then again, that deck isn't commonly played.
What do you think of Tidehollow Sculler? Didn't you used to run some in your list? I know some of the most recent lists have been using them, and I've been running them as a 3-of. They're pretty nifty. Like the ability, and the body is alright -- sometimes good, sometimes a drawback.
Good question, I have used Tidehollow Sculler in the past and in terms of him versus Meddling Mage (since that's generally the choice you have to make), I would tend to go with Tidehollow not considering everything else. The reason is that Meddling Mage only sometimes stops a deck from using a card whereas Tidehollow will always stop them from using a single card. The drawback of MM is that you need information to use him well. There's always something to be said about just knowing the decks you are playing against and what cards they have that you're afraid of, but seeing the opponent's hand makes MM far better than just naming a single card since Modern is full of similar cards with different names. With the added hand hate or Remands filling the hole that DRS banning left us, we have more information than before (with snapcaster able to reuse these as well), making Meddling Mage marginally better.
All of that said, I would prefer Tidehollow even with the above paragraph being true. The reason is basically virtual card advantage vs real card advantage. If your entire goal is to just play Zur and ride him to victory, and you're playing against a deck with multiple kill spells, playing Meddling Mage is actually worse than Tidehollow. For the situation that the opponent has Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt in their hand, Tidehollow gives you the advantage of choosing either play depending on the situation. Here's why:
Opponent + you are in turn 3/4 no one has a massive threat yet. You know they are playing UWR control, and are able to land your 2 drop Tidehollow/Meddling Mage. Your goal is to play and protect Zur. With Meddling Mage and imperfect information, you might name any of their 3 main removal spells Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and Path to Exile. In this case I'd probably name Path to Exile, since playing Zur is your main goal and you're not sure what else they could do to kill Meddling Mage right now. If you had Tidehollow, you see their hand and get to remove one of their cards until they kill him. In this situation you could either take Path to Exile or their Lightning Bolt, taking Path just forces them to play the bolt on your Tidehollow and Path Zur later, whereas taking bolt may get them to use their path to exile (one of their only ways to deal with Zur) on your tidehollow, at least if they're in a situation where they can't deal with him. This gives you a way to outplay your opponent that just knowing their options with Meddling Mage didn't -- the ability to make them waste their good spell on Zur. It gives you the added information of knowing that they have a Path in their hand so that you don't waste Zur until you get another discard spell. The same exact scenario can be said with the opponent having Abrupt Decay + Maelstrom Pulse + Dark Blast (which hits MM but not Zur).
So that added benefit is why I used to play Tidehollow, and I continue to think he's a great option, but with the changing metagame now I think Meddling Mage is slightly better. The first reason is that against a Bitterblossom deck, a Tidehollow can never attack (even with Steel on him). With Steel on Meddling Mage, you get the unblockable clause, which really helps. Another main reason is that I foresee a large increase in UR storm being played, where you can name one of their bounce spells or even win conditions depending on the situation, and they can't play it even from the graveyard (which Tidehollow can't stop). The more draw spells people play, the better Meddling Mage tends to be in comparison to Tidehollow, since discard can never stop someone from top decking.
Lastly, without Disfigure being needed to kill opposing DRS and without us having our own DRSs to play, we can choose our first land to be Hallowed Fountain over Watery Grave, making our land light hands easier to play. That'll let you play Meddling Mage on low land hands far easier than Tidehollow.
Sorry for the ridiculously long response, I just wanted to make sure I explained the subtlety as I see it.
Thanks. I respect that. So far in my current build I'm running 2 Meddling Mages and 3 Tidehollow Scullers. The Mages are either really amazing or just really bad. As of right now, they're not doing so well. I'll keep fiddling with the numbers and the cards.
I'm not a fan of the card because it's not even good against the deck you'd want it against.
Decks it's bad against:
Aggro of any kind
UR combo
Twin
Decks you would not sideboard it in/would sideboard it out against:
Merfolk
2 color decks (BG, WB tokens, etc)
Mono color decks (except maybe the Nykthos versions)
Decks you'd marginally want it in against:
Tron
control featuring manlands
greedy manabases.
Against Tron you have so much better things to be doing on turn 2 than slowing them down marginally. Remand, Meddling Mage, Thoughtseize + Serum Visions, maybe even bitterblossom depending on their land set up. Giving them a blue mana instead of colorless doesn't do much, and they have so many redundant ways to assemble Tron that you're generally just wasting your turn to slow them down a turn. That doesn't mean it's awful, it's like a turn for a turn usually, but it does 'water down' (hah, pun intended) your deck to have them in there. And if it's a "for tron" sideboard card there are so many better options.
Against control it's fine, but not really an all star. Against greedy manabases (5-color Tribal Flames style decks) it's actually probably one of the best cards you have. But then again, that deck isn't commonly played.
Yeah, I ended up cutting my Spreading Seas as well; they've been dead a lot. When they're good, they're great, but sometimes it's pretty hit or miss. I do like the Serum Visions to make up for the card draw. And aggro probably being around more often is gonna make then dead even more. I think the only time they've been good against aggressive decks was burn...weirdly enough. I was able to lock them out of red completely, as they don't run that many mountains to begin with. That said, it's not enough reason for me to keep running them.
Deitel: I mean that Spreading Seas isn't effective unless it's run as a 3 or 4-of, and since Phoenix's list no longer maindecks Spreading Seas, I don't think it's worth it as a sideboard option because it would take up too much room. I don't know whether or not it would still be good to maindeck it, though the aggro decks are an important consideration.
Yeah, that's true. Meta is in flux, which makes it kinda hard to judge what to prepare for. That, and I'm a little new to the format. :/
Edit: Thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty? I think it's a really nifty card, and I like it at 1 main and 1 side. Though, Idk how necessary it is, so I'm uncertain as to whether or not to use them at all. And their prices went up a good bit, so a part of me wants to unload them -- but only if I absolutely don't need them anymore.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Few things i felt about it at this time. I dislike the Thassa, God of the Sea. I boarded her out every game and felt that she was only played if i drew her naturally. THe other thing is that 3zur the enchanter would be fine. The fourth might to be necessary. I think that i would like 1 rest in peace in the main or a Threads of Disloyalty.
Either way it was a great deck to play and it attacks on so many different levels. I ended up getting the first round by, won against BWR small pox deck, drew against Goryo's Vengeance deck (which i got him to 1 on turn 5. My only loss was Skred Red.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
DRS ban helps this deck. Let's it run Lingering Souls more safely, and it now gets access to Bitterblossom (which provides protection from sac effects). The only problem is that Zoo will be back, and I'm not sure this deck is good against them. If you last long enough to attack with Zur you should be fine, but getting that far could be difficult.
This and other midrange red decks (the type that feature Koth) have been brutal. If they become popular we may need something like Nevermore in the sideboard since even CoP doesn't stop the mountains attacking or his ultimate.
Edit: Thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty? I think it's a really nifty card, and I like it at 1 main and 1 side. Though, Idk how necessary it is, so I'm uncertain as to whether or not to use them at all. And their prices went up a good bit, so a part of me wants to unload them -- but only if I absolutely don't need them anymore.
Don't sell all of them. I keep around 2 for swapping in and out of the main/side depending on metagame. These are great against the midrange zoo decks, which will most likely be coming out in full force. I will definitely put 1 main if that deck becomes popular.
How has this deck been affected by the DRS ban? Personally i thought that it would kill the deck, but i see that people are still holding on to it
I don't think it hits us as hard as most people have been saying. I would sideboard it out against a few decks anyway when I was playing it, and my lists more recently (before the ban still) didn't even play them. I say it helps because now you don't have to worry about Jund decks abusing it better than we did (turn 2 Liliana on the play was the worst thing to play against ever). Zur decks can't abuse DRS as well as so many other true GBx decks could.
more of a mid range take ive been trying out. spreading seas are not for mana denial they are for turning off key lands such as an opposing colonnade or nykthos ect. rest in peace is to good vs control and grindy games and can shut off alot of combos. i feel its worth 1 main over spirit of the labyrinth. sin collector is a body unlike tidehallow and meddling bc he gets the job done period. yes 3 mana is taxing but so far hes been great. resto puts the clock on faster gives an instant speed threat and counts as a pseudo counter to removal spells for zur and/or flashing back a collector or clique. remand and shadow of doubt cantrip which is nice but also buy time which is the main goal to grind out wins while semi controlling the game state and win through lands/batter skull or small pokes here and there.
has anyone tested any form of mana rocks to get zur out a turn earlier? I'm used to using them for commander zur but haven't tested it out in this deck yet
Vendilion Clique: I'm a fan of 1-of Clique. He honestly is quite underwhelming against enough decks that you'd never want to see 2 in a hand. With just 1 you get his benefits without worrying about the Legendary drawback. It's got a small amount of game against a decent amount of decks, and works well with all the countermagic people are finally starting to play, but a 3/1 flier for 3 in Modern isn't always the best.
Lingering Souls: I've always liked this card against Affinity + Jund. But against stuff like Tron/Twin/Scapeshift it's pretty dead. Basically, if you need help against the fair decks of the format, it's a great card. If you know the metagame, include it. Against the unfair decks it's a laughable clock, and you'd rather have something else. Best non-zur card in the deck against Affinity.
Snapcaster Mage: People aren't playing Serum Visions anymore, and I think that's a key card to use if you want to include SM, but he's just great against so many decks that I'd rather see him in there than the random utility enchantments that don't do much. Speaking of which...
Thassa: Still bad. Always has been, but "danger of the new" is roping people in to wasting that slot. Scry is worse than draw, unblockable isn't necessary if you would have just put Steel on instead of fished out the goddess, and the amount of scenarios where you could ever get her active as a creature is downright laughable.
Overgrown Tomb: I still like this better than Breeding Pool for the sole reason that you only have to leave 1 land untapped to threaten DRS's end of turn abililty. It lets you match other people's DRS's (respond to their ability with yours) without wasting tons of lands each turn.
I've been playing it since the beginning of Modern, where it would frequently lose to a Bloodbraid Elf. The deck didn't need new cards it just needed that one to be banned (BBE is frequently the blue-stomper). Also, no one picked it up because no one read MTG The Source where the list was posted 2 years ago. It took Gerry T + LSV to write about it (due to me placing with it on MTGO and that list being distributed) for anyone to get interest.
has placed 5 times on MTGO Goldfish now, not including the time i went 3-1 on Dec 19th.
Since those are only recent ones, this deck is going to Established!
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Now let's see if you guys can drive up that Zur price even higher...
Bitterblossom is an interesting option now that I could see helping us. It brings out chump blockers and can do great things against control decks, but against burn style and fast decks it isn't nearly as good. It also doesn't provide a very fast clock like we'd want against Tron and other combo. I like this far more than I liked Thassa in the deck.
As for Nacatl, I'm not sure a deck that runs that is necessarily going to be a worse problem for us than anything else. We'll have to see as the format adapts.
watch out for those 3-cost enchantments, guys.
So the current list is heavier on hand disruption? It seems pretty reasonable, and helpful for the matchup against control or Tron. Meddling Mage seems reasonable against Tron (naming Pyroclasm or Firespout). I take it Zur is fetching Bitterblossom most of the time now? (I'd like to point out that Bitterblossom's price is falling fast. TCGplayer low is now closer to 50).
The list looks a bit weird, probably because it differs so much from the more recent lists, but I recognize the ideas from earlier in the thread and everything looks sound, at least in theory.
I'm wondering what your sideboard looks like, even though that may be premature with the meta just getting shaken up.
I have a few guesses for contenders in the future format:
Zoo (Naya, Gruul splashing White, Domain Zoo all come to mind):
2 Kitchen Finks like older lists, and then maybe more cards if that doesn't do the job.
Faeries post-bitterblossom: Mistbind Clique is a beating if it shows up before Zur or Geist does. Anything that gives multiple creatures -toughness will cause them problems. Do we want to be strange and run Orzhov Pontiff, or Zealous Persecution?
Admittedly, -toughness effects aren't foolproof. Mistbind Clique, Sower of Temptation, and Mutavault survive, as do other faeries if there are at least 2 Scion of Oona. But, we might not even have to worry about Sower or Scion. There are lists being thrown around that use only Vendilion Clique, Mistbind Clique, and Spellstuter SPrite as their creatures.
Jund/Junk: Even without DRS, the goodstuff deck will still exist in some form. The same stuff that was good against them before is still good against them now.
Tron: Making room for Tectonic edge and Mindcensor in the main goes a long way for the matchup, but I don't know what else we could do besides try to Thoughtseize and Geist early. Spreading Seas is no longer an option for us. Also, what does Far/Away do vs Tron? Is it just creature bounces for us, and a reliable way to kill Emrakul? I suppose that's good enough to warrant inclusion, but I want confirmation that I'm looking at it right.
The new list has actually been one I've been playing since before DRS ban. I've shuffled a couple cards to get more Snapcasters and Bitterblossoms in, so I'm not 100% sold on it yet, but I do like it. DRS getting axed means we don't have as much use for Disfigure in the maindeck. Also, if Wild Nacatl becomes popular, Disfigure would be a poor removal choice.
As you said I don't really have a solid sideboard as I foresee changes in the meta that I can't predict right now, and the cool part of Zur is that no matter what deck comes there's probably an enchantment for 3 or less that will help against it.
Kitchen Finks should definitely make an inclusion now, as it won't be eaten on reentry as frequently and Zoo decks will be more popular. Something extra to fight tokens may be in order, but that may be as simple as adding more Detention Spheres. Ghostly Prison is quite good against this style of deck since they have to choose between a small amount of damage per turn or countering your spells.
Tron is much more manageable with things like Mage and Aven Mindcensor. Much of the strategy behind beating Tron is to stop them with tiny annoyances at a time instead of something like Armageddon. Far/Away has the added bonus of taking out Emrakul (wishful thinking), but really is just helpful in many situations (against opposing Geists, saving your creature from a board wipe, resetting Snapcaster, etc.). Just making sure all of your cards have some relevance is a great way to stop them from going nuts on you.
I don't think Bitterblossom is the go to search card at all. If you're in a position where you kept Zur on the table, you are most likely going to want to race your opponent. That means 1) remove their threat with D Sphere or 2) Equip a creature with Steel and keep swinging. Bitterblossom is such a slow clock that getting one out on turn 5 is rarely the right choice. It's the right choice against long grindy decks, probably, but that's situation dependent.
I'll have to test more before I get a solid sideboard decided but if I had to say something right now I'd go with:
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Rest in Peace
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Spellskite
2 Disfigure
2 Negate
A lot of 2-ofs since the format is in flux right now.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
The being 3/1 for 2 does interest me, it's worth trying out.
I am also interested to see if the gameplay doesn't match up well against a very agressive zoo deck like domain. That said I love your current list.
What do you mean by the bolded? No longer main-deckable because of the potential of a lot of aggro running around?
What do you think of Tidehollow Sculler? Didn't you used to run some in your list? I know some of the most recent lists have been using them, and I've been running them as a 3-of. They're pretty nifty. Like the ability, and the body is alright -- sometimes good, sometimes a drawback.
Good question, I have used Tidehollow Sculler in the past and in terms of him versus Meddling Mage (since that's generally the choice you have to make), I would tend to go with Tidehollow not considering everything else. The reason is that Meddling Mage only sometimes stops a deck from using a card whereas Tidehollow will always stop them from using a single card. The drawback of MM is that you need information to use him well. There's always something to be said about just knowing the decks you are playing against and what cards they have that you're afraid of, but seeing the opponent's hand makes MM far better than just naming a single card since Modern is full of similar cards with different names. With the added hand hate or Remands filling the hole that DRS banning left us, we have more information than before (with snapcaster able to reuse these as well), making Meddling Mage marginally better.
All of that said, I would prefer Tidehollow even with the above paragraph being true. The reason is basically virtual card advantage vs real card advantage. If your entire goal is to just play Zur and ride him to victory, and you're playing against a deck with multiple kill spells, playing Meddling Mage is actually worse than Tidehollow. For the situation that the opponent has Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt in their hand, Tidehollow gives you the advantage of choosing either play depending on the situation. Here's why:
Opponent + you are in turn 3/4 no one has a massive threat yet. You know they are playing UWR control, and are able to land your 2 drop Tidehollow/Meddling Mage. Your goal is to play and protect Zur. With Meddling Mage and imperfect information, you might name any of their 3 main removal spells Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and Path to Exile. In this case I'd probably name Path to Exile, since playing Zur is your main goal and you're not sure what else they could do to kill Meddling Mage right now. If you had Tidehollow, you see their hand and get to remove one of their cards until they kill him. In this situation you could either take Path to Exile or their Lightning Bolt, taking Path just forces them to play the bolt on your Tidehollow and Path Zur later, whereas taking bolt may get them to use their path to exile (one of their only ways to deal with Zur) on your tidehollow, at least if they're in a situation where they can't deal with him. This gives you a way to outplay your opponent that just knowing their options with Meddling Mage didn't -- the ability to make them waste their good spell on Zur. It gives you the added information of knowing that they have a Path in their hand so that you don't waste Zur until you get another discard spell. The same exact scenario can be said with the opponent having Abrupt Decay + Maelstrom Pulse + Dark Blast (which hits MM but not Zur).
So that added benefit is why I used to play Tidehollow, and I continue to think he's a great option, but with the changing metagame now I think Meddling Mage is slightly better. The first reason is that against a Bitterblossom deck, a Tidehollow can never attack (even with Steel on him). With Steel on Meddling Mage, you get the unblockable clause, which really helps. Another main reason is that I foresee a large increase in UR storm being played, where you can name one of their bounce spells or even win conditions depending on the situation, and they can't play it even from the graveyard (which Tidehollow can't stop). The more draw spells people play, the better Meddling Mage tends to be in comparison to Tidehollow, since discard can never stop someone from top decking.
Lastly, without Disfigure being needed to kill opposing DRS and without us having our own DRSs to play, we can choose our first land to be Hallowed Fountain over Watery Grave, making our land light hands easier to play. That'll let you play Meddling Mage on low land hands far easier than Tidehollow.
Sorry for the ridiculously long response, I just wanted to make sure I explained the subtlety as I see it.
Decks it's bad against:
Aggro of any kind
UR combo
Twin
Decks you would not sideboard it in/would sideboard it out against:
Merfolk
2 color decks (BG, WB tokens, etc)
Mono color decks (except maybe the Nykthos versions)
Decks you'd marginally want it in against:
Tron
control featuring manlands
greedy manabases.
Against Tron you have so much better things to be doing on turn 2 than slowing them down marginally. Remand, Meddling Mage, Thoughtseize + Serum Visions, maybe even bitterblossom depending on their land set up. Giving them a blue mana instead of colorless doesn't do much, and they have so many redundant ways to assemble Tron that you're generally just wasting your turn to slow them down a turn. That doesn't mean it's awful, it's like a turn for a turn usually, but it does 'water down' (hah, pun intended) your deck to have them in there. And if it's a "for tron" sideboard card there are so many better options.
Against control it's fine, but not really an all star. Against greedy manabases (5-color Tribal Flames style decks) it's actually probably one of the best cards you have. But then again, that deck isn't commonly played.
Thanks. I respect that. So far in my current build I'm running 2 Meddling Mages and 3 Tidehollow Scullers. The Mages are either really amazing or just really bad. As of right now, they're not doing so well. I'll keep fiddling with the numbers and the cards.
Yeah, I ended up cutting my Spreading Seas as well; they've been dead a lot. When they're good, they're great, but sometimes it's pretty hit or miss. I do like the Serum Visions to make up for the card draw. And aggro probably being around more often is gonna make then dead even more. I think the only time they've been good against aggressive decks was burn...weirdly enough. I was able to lock them out of red completely, as they don't run that many mountains to begin with. That said, it's not enough reason for me to keep running them.
Yeah, that's true. Meta is in flux, which makes it kinda hard to judge what to prepare for. That, and I'm a little new to the format. :/
Edit: Thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty? I think it's a really nifty card, and I like it at 1 main and 1 side. Though, Idk how necessary it is, so I'm uncertain as to whether or not to use them at all. And their prices went up a good bit, so a part of me wants to unload them -- but only if I absolutely don't need them anymore.
2x snapcaster mage
2x Aven Mindcensor
4x zur the enchanter
4x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Vendilion Clique
Enchantments(8)
2x Detention Sphere
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
2x Steel of the Godhead
3x spreading seas
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x path to exile
4x mana leak
lands(24)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Watery Grave
1 Island
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
Few things i felt about it at this time. I dislike the Thassa, God of the Sea. I boarded her out every game and felt that she was only played if i drew her naturally. THe other thing is that 3zur the enchanter would be fine. The fourth might to be necessary. I think that i would like 1 rest in peace in the main or a Threads of Disloyalty.
Either way it was a great deck to play and it attacks on so many different levels. I ended up getting the first round by, won against BWR small pox deck, drew against Goryo's Vengeance deck (which i got him to 1 on turn 5. My only loss was Skred Red.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I personally really liked DRS in my build, and I was pretty sad seeing it get banned. It still runs alright.
This and other midrange red decks (the type that feature Koth) have been brutal. If they become popular we may need something like Nevermore in the sideboard since even CoP doesn't stop the mountains attacking or his ultimate.
Don't sell all of them. I keep around 2 for swapping in and out of the main/side depending on metagame. These are great against the midrange zoo decks, which will most likely be coming out in full force. I will definitely put 1 main if that deck becomes popular.
I don't think it hits us as hard as most people have been saying. I would sideboard it out against a few decks anyway when I was playing it, and my lists more recently (before the ban still) didn't even play them. I say it helps because now you don't have to worry about Jund decks abusing it better than we did (turn 2 Liliana on the play was the worst thing to play against ever). Zur decks can't abuse DRS as well as so many other true GBx decks could.
3 sin collector
3 aven mindcensor
2 vendillion clique
2 restoration angel
2 detention sphere
2 spreading seas
1 threads of disloyalty
1 rest in peace
4 path to exile
2 shadow of doubt
2 supreme verdict
2 bile blight
1 dismember
1 batterskull
4 marsh flats
4 celestial colonnade
3 godless shrine
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
2 scalding tarn
2 swamp
2 island
1 creeping tar pit
1 plains
1 seachrome coast
more of a mid range take ive been trying out. spreading seas are not for mana denial they are for turning off key lands such as an opposing colonnade or nykthos ect. rest in peace is to good vs control and grindy games and can shut off alot of combos. i feel its worth 1 main over spirit of the labyrinth. sin collector is a body unlike tidehallow and meddling bc he gets the job done period. yes 3 mana is taxing but so far hes been great. resto puts the clock on faster gives an instant speed threat and counts as a pseudo counter to removal spells for zur and/or flashing back a collector or clique. remand and shadow of doubt cantrip which is nice but also buy time which is the main goal to grind out wins while semi controlling the game state and win through lands/batter skull or small pokes here and there.
Grand Arbiter
Omnath
Skittles