With DRS in so many decks I am skeptic as to the competitiveness of any graveyard based deck. Especially one that can't do much else without the GY.
DRS is not just in jund or junk or melira pod (some very popular decks), it is being shoe-horned into just about any deck with green or black that can accommodate it. It was printed recently, so most people who play modern own some (even the newer players) and they like to play it.
With ooze on its way to the modern field as well, as cool as this deck looks, I'm... skeptic.
The deck has 8 maindecked outs against DRS: 4 Darkblast and 4 Izzet Charm. Board brings in Decay on the draw and Inquisition on the play. In my testing (admittedly not as extensive as I would like; just came to the deck last night) DRS isn't a big issue. Ooze, however, is going to be another story, but some tinkering with the maindeck might help against the new bear.
dented42ford: Nice job in the daily. It's always nice to have testing to back up the theory behind a deck. That said, I am always skeptical of MTGO results; the decks that you see just aren't very good. That's not to invalidate your plays - just to give a general word of caution about winning against tier 2/3 decks. The Twin and Robots matchup were awesome. The Genesis and Faeries ones were just less representative.
Regarding the Vivids. In a metagame full of Zoo, Gruul, and Robots, I am very hesitant to waste turn 1 when I also have a ton of turn 2 plays that need to be made on schedule. We have turn 1 Darkblast and Looting, followed by turn 2 Breaking, Charm, or Druid. With a Vivid land in the mix, that sets us back a whole turn on that play tree, and that's very dangerous against these fast decks. On the draw, it's probably game over. I need to finish more Affinity tests, but preliminarily, Vivid is too slow for that matchup (a matchup that is going to make up about 10% of the field). It's also going to be too slow for the other two fast aggro decks. Replacing them with Groves seems like a much safer option (or Fastlands); I can appreciate the need to avoid too many shocks and fetches.
I'm down -1 Brownscale and +1 Imp as well. Hardcasting Imp is an awesome play against both Affinity (stops Inkmoth) and Zoo (stops Giest/Goyf). I'm toying with getting Corpse Connoisseur into the deck somehow, but maybe only as a singleton in place of a Grisel. But I don't want to cut down on our options, and Unburial Rites --> Grisel is still a very valid play.
Darkblast only works against Deathrite if it's summoning sick, cut off black mana, or tapped for some other reason (e.g. Turn 2 Birthing Pod). Otherwise, you blast it on your upkeep, then Deathrite eats Darkblast on your upkeep before you can Dredge it back.
Thus, I doubt Darkblast is as good an answer against Deathrite as everyone claims it is. You have a pretty narrow window to kill Deathrite with it.
Darkblast only works against Deathrite if it's summoning sick, cut off black mana, or tapped for some other reason (e.g. Turn 2 Birthing Pod). Otherwise, you blast it on your upkeep, then Deathrite eats Darkblast on your upkeep before you can Dredge it back.
Thus, I doubt Darkblast is as good an answer against Deathrite as everyone claims it is. You have a pretty narrow window to kill Deathrite with it.
If I took this to a big event, I would be confident that the overwhelming majority of my opponents would tap DRS on turn 2 to accelerate something. That gives us a two-turn window to kill the Shaman with Darkblast. On the play against a deck with DRS, we also get an unanswered turn 1 Looting to dig two extra for the DB. Add that on top of the 4 Charms (which we can also use Looting to help find) and, probabilistically, we have at least a 75% chance of having some turn 1 or 2 option against an opposing DRS. Those are roughly the odds of drawing either DB in opening hand, DB off a Looting, Charm in opening hand, Charm off a looting, or 2 DB in opening hand, all assuming we have 2+ lands. I'm totally willing to work with those odds.
That said Scavenging Ooze is a much, much bigger problem because he is out of BOTH Charm and Blast range as long as the controller resolves him with 1 mana to spare (assuming we have a creature in our yard which, likely, we do). At that point, I'd be willing to even maindeck some Abrupt Decay or Pithing Needle. Needle is especially maindeckable, given the narrow range of threats that we absolutely need to answer to resolve our combo. It's unclear now as to how many decks are going to pack Ooze, but my gut instinct says that we are going to see a lot of this guy in both sideboards and maindecks.
@ ktkenshinx: Yeah, I agree on the dailies and randomness - wish I could give up a Sunday for a premiere event, but I just don't have the time, especially since I'm now considering a trip to KC for the GP. I'd be driving home (to Fort Worth, TX from Los Angeles) around that time, and KC isn't that far from DFW.
I also wish that I hadn't lost that match to Affinity - though, honestly, it was to my own mistakes, not the deck as such. You are totally right about Ooze, as well, though I don't see him as as much of a threat - really, he is just a 2-mana Deathrite. Think about it - they play him T2, and you can still Double-DB him or Charm him. The real issue is him in Pod, where they might (MIGHT) have the mana to cause some real damage - but maybe not, it really bears testing. It should also be noted that Ooze, Deathrite, and Goyf all canibalize off each other - meaning, running them all in the same deck may not be the best of ideas. It really is just wait and see.
Also, I'd maindeck Decay over Needle, simply because of the versatility. Decay is dead against nothing, while Needle is dead against randomness (storm, for instance) - no reason to have dead cards when there is a live one that is almost as effective.
@ Lectrys & Tom: DRS isn't THAT big of an issue, as ktkenshinx explained (very well, good job!). The other hate, other than Leyline, is relatively easy to play around, with some practice. It really isn't much different than Twin or Storm or Pod, in that respect. Saying "well, you have a hate problem" doesn't say anything about the competitiveness of the deck; just look at other combo decks, they ALL have that issue. The real reason to play a "non-standard" combo, assuming that it has equivalent consistency and power-level to the standard combos, is that it is just different to play around. It doesn't matter if the same hate answers it, if you have access to answers - and the answers this deck has to hate are much better than what Twin, Storm, and Pod have access to.
General Thoughts I'm going to update the main post with this info later today or tomorrow, and do some clean-up to make it more readable.
I'm liking the maindeck, for the most part, but I tweaked the mana a bit to reduce the number of ETBT lands. I also swapped the one MD Brownscale for another Imp, as I said above. Here is the list as I'm going to run it in the next Daily I get a chance to:
The sideboard is really a work in progress - one of the reasons I'm really skewing towards discard is that Slaughter Games is a card, and is showing up in more lists lately. No counterspell will take it out - otherwise, Trickbind, Swerve, and Negate would all be reasonable options as counterspells. Trickbind is great (better than Squelch) because it stops the trigger on Crypt or Relic, and also stops the ETB effect on Rest In Peace. It can't stop Slaughter Games, though - the only other option there is Leyline of Sanctity, which I will admit might be a way to go, especially since it makes it so you don't need life gain for Burn matchups. Since Relic is the most common hate card, Stony Silence is an option as well - but it is less generally useful than Decay or Grudge. Still, it does HOSE affinity and G-Tron, so it is worth consideration. One possible board config:
Leyline and Silence are to take out common hate and burn, and the destruction spells give you a control aspect and take out the other Leyline. The problem I see with this 'board is that it makes sideboarding difficult - what do you take out in what matchups? Worth consideration, though.
Another thing I'm considering trying again is going more whole-hog on the mill plan, reducing the main combo pieces for more mill. Something like this:
Obviously still a rough idea, but it does have some promise. I'm not sure if it is any less or more consistent than the previous build - and it is very much weaker to Spell Snare, a card my current build can pretty much just ignore. Just thought it was worth sharing.
Out of curiosity, has anyone else been testing the deck? How are your experiences going? What have you changed?
I won some FNM in Québec with Gifts Ooze. Why did you change gifts ooze into dredge ooze.
Gifts Ooze (yes, I know, my deck too, I'm kinda stuck on getting this combo from good to great, since it is the easiest infinite-mana combo to assemble in modern) was a good deck - I still have it built on MTGO, and may revisit it in the future - but was a turn 5 combo, usually. This "dredge ooze" deck has almost all the same tools to fight hate, and is much more consistent.
One reason I switched was Breaking / Entering - which ended up getting cut down to 2 - but has been very powerful in my testing. Another was Darkblast. But there is no reason you couldn't run a hybrid of the two decks - looking back at my lists for Gifts Ooze, you could easily swap some cards around and make it so that you have the best of both strategies. In fact, later today, I'll try to do that!
But the main reason I switched was consistency and resistance to removal. That, and the Dredge Ooze deck is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play - a real issue over a long tournament like a GP, which is what I was designing the Ooze decks for in the first place.
In my side board I put pull from eternity. Very strong against relic of progenitus. Tormod crypt. Extirpate. Surgical ectraction and deathrithe shaman...
This card return a part of the combo.
I win a lot of game just gift griselbrand in the graveyard. Extirpate. Return it with pull.
Try it. It's very strong. A lot of oppononents doesn't think you will side in pull from eternity.
But the main reason I switched was consistency and resistance to removal. That, and the Dredge Ooze deck is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play - a real issue over a long tournament like a GP, which is what I was designing the Ooze decks for in the first place.
What is your Gifts Ooze list? I would love to see it and check if there are any ideas from that deck that can be fit into this one. Do you mind sharing?
As for the Dredge Ooze list, one card I have been testing in the maindeck (-1 Desperate Ravings, -1 Breaking/Entering) is Electrolyze. This card helps out in two matchups that, in practice, haven't been as favorable as they should be: Affinity and 5C Zoo. In theory, we should have at least a 60/40 matchup against these decks, given our speed and lack of interaction with their deck plan. But in practice, it has been closer to 50/50. Both decks are just as fast as ours and, most importantly, just a hair more consistent. Sometimes our deck snags on a missed land drop or a bad dredge. It's generally recoverable with another turn of digging, but Affinity/Zoo doesn't give you that extra turn. If you are on the draw against these decks, we can sometimes barely survive that 4th turn. We often just die.
Electrolyze has helped with this problem, especially against Affinity. The damage buys us a turn. The draw gives us an extra dredge or an extra shot at getting a land. As an added bonus, it all but guarantees an answer to the omnipresent DRS.
Other cards I am testing in this slot are Pyroclasm (better at stopping aggro, but doesn't advance our game plan like the extra draw from Electrolyze) and Magma Jet (kills DRS, screws with Affinity, gives us better dig).
As a final note, my goal is to get the Pod, Zoo, and Affinity matchups to 55/45 or better. Then it won't matter as much if we have a subpar UWR matchup (although this deck fares better against control than others).
In my side board I put pull from eternity. Very strong against relic of progenitus. Tormod crypt. Extirpate. Surgical ectraction and deathrithe shaman...
This card return a part of the combo.
I win a lot of game just gift griselbrand in the graveyard. Extirpate. Return it with pull.
Try it. It's very strong. A lot of oppononents doesn't think you will side in pull from eternity.
I'll try it out, but it seems like it might be a bit clunky. I'm thinking of just getting rid of the discard for it and 2x Snapcaster - side out B&E and some dredge for them, letting us recover from a Relic or such. Doesn't look so hot in theory, but then, sometimes the best options are things that don't.
What is your Gifts Ooze list? I would love to see it and check if there are any ideas from that deck that can be fit into this one. Do you mind sharing?
As for the Dredge Ooze list, one card I have been testing in the maindeck (-1 Desperate Ravings, -1 Breaking/Entering) is Electrolyze. This card helps out in two matchups that, in practice, haven't been as favorable as they should be: Affinity and 5C Zoo. In theory, we should have at least a 60/40 matchup against these decks, given our speed and lack of interaction with their deck plan. But in practice, it has been closer to 50/50. Both decks are just as fast as ours and, most importantly, just a hair more consistent. Sometimes our deck snags on a missed land drop or a bad dredge. It's generally recoverable with another turn of digging, but Affinity/Zoo doesn't give you that extra turn. If you are on the draw against these decks, we can sometimes barely survive that 4th turn. We often just die.
Electrolyze has helped with this problem, especially against Affinity. The damage buys us a turn. The draw gives us an extra dredge or an extra shot at getting a land. As an added bonus, it all but guarantees an answer to the omnipresent DRS.
Other cards I am testing in this slot are Pyroclasm (better at stopping aggro, but doesn't advance our game plan like the extra draw from Electrolyze) and Magma Jet (kills DRS, screws with Affinity, gives us better dig).
As a final note, my goal is to get the Pod, Zoo, and Affinity matchups to 55/45 or better. Then it won't matter as much if we have a subpar UWR matchup (although this deck fares better against control than others).
In my experience, Affinity, Zoo, and Pod aren't so bad - I'd say all of them, with the current list, are around 60/40. That might come down to playstyle, though - cards like Izzet Charm produce a lot of decision trees, and I'm gathering from what you've said thus far that I am much more willing to aggressively mulligan than you are. Against Pod, the only things you really care about are not dying to creatures and preventing Linvalla from shutting you down - the latter being the thing you need to dedicate sideboard space to.
I'm not sure that a 3-mana spell is the answer, given that it doesn't answer Linvalla. Drown in Filth and Magma Jet seem like they'd have the most promise in both furthering our game plan and taking down problem creatures - and DiF can take down Linvalla.
I think the thing that needs the most work is the sideboard - right now, it is all reactive answers to hate, and not very versatile at that. I'd like to work in Back to Nature and Ancient Grudge as well, but I'm not sure how mana answers to Linvalla we really need to keep around.
As far as the "Gifts Ooze" deck goes, here is the list I used to a bit of success:
So I read the Primer, and I think Devil's Play is the best wincon for this deck, since whether in hand or milled you can cast it. Mill/dredge/draw into infinite mana then cast Devil's Play from your graveyard or hand. It's very consistent at a turn 4 kill.
So I read the Primer, and I think Devil's Play is the best wincon for this deck, since whether in hand or milled you can cast it. Mill/dredge/draw into infinite mana then cast Devil's Play from your graveyard or hand.
One thing that I like about Devil's Play is that it isn't a totally dead card/draw before the combo. It's a bad removal spell, sure, but it is still a removal spell. The huge disadvantage of Play is that it can be countered, which is admittedly only a problem in some matchups, but it is definitely something to consider if you are facing down UWR or Scapeshift.
Yeah, Devil's Play does look like one of the best win cons since you don't have to discard it and it can kill Scavenging Ooze (although I should figure out how big that guy gets against us).
I've been toying around with Drown in Filth and Orzhov Guildmage. Drown in Filth is pretty good self-milling removal, but I once whiffed on a 4/4 Scooze because it booted one of my dead lands in response. Orzhov Guildmage was also decent, as it can trade (or die to Bolt) before enabling Necrotic Ooze, and it can still enable N Ooze if it's in play. Getting it booted by Path to Exile is brutal, though, and I'm wondering if there are any lethal creature infinite mana sinks that kill themselves for cheap (Devoted Druid cheap would be best, but we can't always have it that good).
All you're doing till turn 4 is looting and discarding anything but lands, more loot spells, and gifts. By t4, with all this digging and selective discard, I usually have all the combo pieces in the gy but a gifts + whatever and Looting will ensure that. A pile of Ooze + Rites + Devil's Play just feels too sick since we could care less where then end up.
Forbidden Alchemy is really good here with the curve and with Ooze and infinite mana out to dig for Gifts or straight into Devils play and I'm thinking about electrolyze over pyroclasm for the cantrip but I'm not sure.
So far I think that the gifts version is more consistent. The focus on Loot spells gives you an option of what you want to discard as opposed to dredging which is all luck. In the gifts version by t4 I almost always have everything I need in the GY and a bunch of lands and a gifts in hand to win.
All you're doing till turn 4 is looting and discarding anything but lands, more loot spells, and gifts. By t4, with all this digging and selective discard, I usually have all the combo pieces in the gy but a gifts + whatever and Looting will ensure that. A pile of Ooze + Rites + Devil's Play just feels too sick since we could care less where then end up.
Forbidden Alchemy is really good here with the curve and with Ooze and infinite mana out to dig for Gifts or straight into Devils play and I'm thinking about electrolyze over pyroclasm for the cantrip but I'm not sure.
So far I think that the gifts version is more consistent. The focus on Loot spells gives you an option of what you want to discard as opposed to dredging which is all luck. In the gifts version by t4 I almost always have everything I need in the GY and a bunch of lands and a gifts in hand to win.
The Gifts version is a turn 5 kill with gifts.. The dredge version is very consistent too but consistent at a turn 4 kill.
You make a million oozes with kiki in the GY, then untap them all with druid and swing. This lets you cut down a piece of the combo so you don't have to combo for infinite mana and then have to have another piece to use it on.
Edit: whoops just realized that Ooze doesn't gain haste from Kiki-Jiki.
Is anyone still playing this deck? I've been trying a Borborygmos Enraged with Griselbrand Ooze version instead of the mana combo to have a bunch of scary reanimation targets instead of just a bunch of mana dorks that aren't too good on their own. There's always going to be a big threat in the gy so Goryo's Vengeance works well here for explosiveness. I'm also dealing with DRS better simply because of the amount of big threats they'd have to remove in this version, it feels a lot more resilient and less reliant on having the whole combo in the gy since reanimating a Griselbrand with haste or a Borborygmos to clear the field is game winning on it's own.
I've been playing this deck casually for quite some time now using gifts packed with both, like you, griselbrand and Borborygmos Enraged (only 1 of each in the deck). I also am using a Sphinx of the Chimes amazing with dredge! and laboratory maniac. It has been crazy consistent in my group, going off turn 4 or 5 every game.
I've been playing this deck for a while now, and while I absolutely love it, it appears that there is too much resources/cards dedicated to the combo. Compared to other combo decks, which have plan B and cards to disrupt/control the opponent, Ooze doesn't quite match these decks. Usually, what happens is I win about 60-80 percent of game 1, then I lose both next games, probably because the guys out there know how to play against me:tongue:. I did made 4-4 at a ptq though. Won against UW control 2x, Homebrew affinity and Urza Tron (which was surprising), lost against UR faeries, URW Midrange, and two other I don't quite remember.
Having some success with this version online. What I really like about the deck is that you can combo infinite mana in response to removal, and that hand disruption is very ineffective against it. Counter magic with a clock is an issue though.
I haven't played much with it but all the interaction is nice. Chaining Thought-Knots while discarding combo pieces is also pretty tasty but who knows.
on the off chance someone is still monitoring this thread i've recently had another go rehashing and playing this deck a FNM. Sideboard is still in development.
i tend to play extreme budget build (which this deck is with a slower land base). i have found this deck to be one of the most competitive extreme budget combo decks around...
Doesn't look too bad for a budget version, though I question the utility of Aether Hub over Gemstone Mine, even without Urborg(s).
Yes, I monitor this thread every few months, as this is still a pet deck of mine. I've moved back to a Gifts Ungiven version as of late, as the banning of Grave-Troll made the dredge version less palatable for a while. That build is probably still good (with Stinkweed), but I wanted to give the Gifts version another go. I've been tearing up my LGS with this build lately (4-0 or 3-1 in 15-35 player tourneys three times a week for a few months now, with build variations of course):
I've actually got to go to a tourney right now, but in summation: Cut//Ribbons is a wonderful addition to the deck, Ballista is the best secondary win con printed in a while (for instant speed), the Lilianas in the board are very good, and the deck is coming together. Worst matchups are Bogles (which is why LotV was added to the board in the first place), Abzan non-company (rare, but some around here play it), Jund (depending on build), and RW hate. Pretty much everything else is even to a cakewalk...
More details later, if anyone is curious enough to respond!
Still a different deck, with a very different method of play. No matter your opinion of it, this thread is about the combo build, not a midrange Eldrazi deck...
POST-TOURNEY EDIT: I went 4-0, again, in a 27 player tournament. Lost one game, to mana flood. Beat RG Scapeshift, Grishoalbrand, UW Control, and Grixis Death's Shadow (even got to kill a DS with a Grove - never actually had someone walk into that before). Don't want to change anything in the deck, really, but I'm still vacillating about some sideboard cards, specifically which counterspells (I know I want 4 with 3 different names, for Gifts) and how many/which anti-hate cards.
One change I'm specifically considering is cutting one Cut//Ribbons and the Ballista for a Tasigur and a Geth's Verdict. My MTGO version uses Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius still, for time's sake (a lot less clicks than Ballista), but the paper version doesn't actually care - the Tasigur kill may or may not be better than Ballista, specifically because there is an occasional need to recur enchantment/artifact removal. Just a thought, I'll try it at tomorrow's tourney...
The deck has 8 maindecked outs against DRS: 4 Darkblast and 4 Izzet Charm. Board brings in Decay on the draw and Inquisition on the play. In my testing (admittedly not as extensive as I would like; just came to the deck last night) DRS isn't a big issue. Ooze, however, is going to be another story, but some tinkering with the maindeck might help against the new bear.
dented42ford: Nice job in the daily. It's always nice to have testing to back up the theory behind a deck. That said, I am always skeptical of MTGO results; the decks that you see just aren't very good. That's not to invalidate your plays - just to give a general word of caution about winning against tier 2/3 decks. The Twin and Robots matchup were awesome. The Genesis and Faeries ones were just less representative.
Regarding the Vivids. In a metagame full of Zoo, Gruul, and Robots, I am very hesitant to waste turn 1 when I also have a ton of turn 2 plays that need to be made on schedule. We have turn 1 Darkblast and Looting, followed by turn 2 Breaking, Charm, or Druid. With a Vivid land in the mix, that sets us back a whole turn on that play tree, and that's very dangerous against these fast decks. On the draw, it's probably game over. I need to finish more Affinity tests, but preliminarily, Vivid is too slow for that matchup (a matchup that is going to make up about 10% of the field). It's also going to be too slow for the other two fast aggro decks. Replacing them with Groves seems like a much safer option (or Fastlands); I can appreciate the need to avoid too many shocks and fetches.
I'm down -1 Brownscale and +1 Imp as well. Hardcasting Imp is an awesome play against both Affinity (stops Inkmoth) and Zoo (stops Giest/Goyf). I'm toying with getting Corpse Connoisseur into the deck somehow, but maybe only as a singleton in place of a Grisel. But I don't want to cut down on our options, and Unburial Rites --> Grisel is still a very valid play.
Thus, I doubt Darkblast is as good an answer against Deathrite as everyone claims it is. You have a pretty narrow window to kill Deathrite with it.
If I took this to a big event, I would be confident that the overwhelming majority of my opponents would tap DRS on turn 2 to accelerate something. That gives us a two-turn window to kill the Shaman with Darkblast. On the play against a deck with DRS, we also get an unanswered turn 1 Looting to dig two extra for the DB. Add that on top of the 4 Charms (which we can also use Looting to help find) and, probabilistically, we have at least a 75% chance of having some turn 1 or 2 option against an opposing DRS. Those are roughly the odds of drawing either DB in opening hand, DB off a Looting, Charm in opening hand, Charm off a looting, or 2 DB in opening hand, all assuming we have 2+ lands. I'm totally willing to work with those odds.
That said Scavenging Ooze is a much, much bigger problem because he is out of BOTH Charm and Blast range as long as the controller resolves him with 1 mana to spare (assuming we have a creature in our yard which, likely, we do). At that point, I'd be willing to even maindeck some Abrupt Decay or Pithing Needle. Needle is especially maindeckable, given the narrow range of threats that we absolutely need to answer to resolve our combo. It's unclear now as to how many decks are going to pack Ooze, but my gut instinct says that we are going to see a lot of this guy in both sideboards and maindecks.
I also wish that I hadn't lost that match to Affinity - though, honestly, it was to my own mistakes, not the deck as such. You are totally right about Ooze, as well, though I don't see him as as much of a threat - really, he is just a 2-mana Deathrite. Think about it - they play him T2, and you can still Double-DB him or Charm him. The real issue is him in Pod, where they might (MIGHT) have the mana to cause some real damage - but maybe not, it really bears testing. It should also be noted that Ooze, Deathrite, and Goyf all canibalize off each other - meaning, running them all in the same deck may not be the best of ideas. It really is just wait and see.
Also, I'd maindeck Decay over Needle, simply because of the versatility. Decay is dead against nothing, while Needle is dead against randomness (storm, for instance) - no reason to have dead cards when there is a live one that is almost as effective.
@ Lectrys & Tom: DRS isn't THAT big of an issue, as ktkenshinx explained (very well, good job!). The other hate, other than Leyline, is relatively easy to play around, with some practice. It really isn't much different than Twin or Storm or Pod, in that respect. Saying "well, you have a hate problem" doesn't say anything about the competitiveness of the deck; just look at other combo decks, they ALL have that issue. The real reason to play a "non-standard" combo, assuming that it has equivalent consistency and power-level to the standard combos, is that it is just different to play around. It doesn't matter if the same hate answers it, if you have access to answers - and the answers this deck has to hate are much better than what Twin, Storm, and Pod have access to.
General Thoughts
I'm going to update the main post with this info later today or tomorrow, and do some clean-up to make it more readable.
I'm liking the maindeck, for the most part, but I tweaked the mana a bit to reduce the number of ETBT lands. I also swapped the one MD Brownscale for another Imp, as I said above. Here is the list as I'm going to run it in the next Daily I get a chance to:
4 Morselhoarder
4 Devoted Druid
2 Griselbrand
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
3 Stinkweed Imp
4 Darkblast
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
1 Life from the Loam
2 Breaking / Entering
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
2 Reflecting Pool
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Steam Vents
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 River of Tears
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Duress
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Golgari Brownscale
2 Ancient Grudge
The sideboard is really a work in progress - one of the reasons I'm really skewing towards discard is that Slaughter Games is a card, and is showing up in more lists lately. No counterspell will take it out - otherwise, Trickbind, Swerve, and Negate would all be reasonable options as counterspells. Trickbind is great (better than Squelch) because it stops the trigger on Crypt or Relic, and also stops the ETB effect on Rest In Peace. It can't stop Slaughter Games, though - the only other option there is Leyline of Sanctity, which I will admit might be a way to go, especially since it makes it so you don't need life gain for Burn matchups. Since Relic is the most common hate card, Stony Silence is an option as well - but it is less generally useful than Decay or Grudge. Still, it does HOSE affinity and G-Tron, so it is worth consideration. One possible board config:
Leyline and Silence are to take out common hate and burn, and the destruction spells give you a control aspect and take out the other Leyline. The problem I see with this 'board is that it makes sideboarding difficult - what do you take out in what matchups? Worth consideration, though.
Another thing I'm considering trying again is going more whole-hog on the mill plan, reducing the main combo pieces for more mill. Something like this:
3 Morselhoarder
3 Devoted Druid
2 Griselbrand
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
3 Stinkweed Imp
4 Darkblast
3 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
1 Life from the Loam
3 Breaking / Entering
3 Grisly Salvage
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
2 Reflecting Pool
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Steam Vents
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 River of Tears
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Obviously still a rough idea, but it does have some promise. I'm not sure if it is any less or more consistent than the previous build - and it is very much weaker to Spell Snare, a card my current build can pretty much just ignore. Just thought it was worth sharing.
Out of curiosity, has anyone else been testing the deck? How are your experiences going? What have you changed?
Gifts Ooze (yes, I know, my deck too, I'm kinda stuck on getting this combo from good to great, since it is the easiest infinite-mana combo to assemble in modern) was a good deck - I still have it built on MTGO, and may revisit it in the future - but was a turn 5 combo, usually. This "dredge ooze" deck has almost all the same tools to fight hate, and is much more consistent.
One reason I switched was Breaking / Entering - which ended up getting cut down to 2 - but has been very powerful in my testing. Another was Darkblast. But there is no reason you couldn't run a hybrid of the two decks - looking back at my lists for Gifts Ooze, you could easily swap some cards around and make it so that you have the best of both strategies. In fact, later today, I'll try to do that!
But the main reason I switched was consistency and resistance to removal. That, and the Dredge Ooze deck is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to play - a real issue over a long tournament like a GP, which is what I was designing the Ooze decks for in the first place.
This card return a part of the combo.
I win a lot of game just gift griselbrand in the graveyard. Extirpate. Return it with pull.
Try it. It's very strong. A lot of oppononents doesn't think you will side in pull from eternity.
What is your Gifts Ooze list? I would love to see it and check if there are any ideas from that deck that can be fit into this one. Do you mind sharing?
As for the Dredge Ooze list, one card I have been testing in the maindeck (-1 Desperate Ravings, -1 Breaking/Entering) is Electrolyze. This card helps out in two matchups that, in practice, haven't been as favorable as they should be: Affinity and 5C Zoo. In theory, we should have at least a 60/40 matchup against these decks, given our speed and lack of interaction with their deck plan. But in practice, it has been closer to 50/50. Both decks are just as fast as ours and, most importantly, just a hair more consistent. Sometimes our deck snags on a missed land drop or a bad dredge. It's generally recoverable with another turn of digging, but Affinity/Zoo doesn't give you that extra turn. If you are on the draw against these decks, we can sometimes barely survive that 4th turn. We often just die.
Electrolyze has helped with this problem, especially against Affinity. The damage buys us a turn. The draw gives us an extra dredge or an extra shot at getting a land. As an added bonus, it all but guarantees an answer to the omnipresent DRS.
Other cards I am testing in this slot are Pyroclasm (better at stopping aggro, but doesn't advance our game plan like the extra draw from Electrolyze) and Magma Jet (kills DRS, screws with Affinity, gives us better dig).
As a final note, my goal is to get the Pod, Zoo, and Affinity matchups to 55/45 or better. Then it won't matter as much if we have a subpar UWR matchup (although this deck fares better against control than others).
I'll try it out, but it seems like it might be a bit clunky. I'm thinking of just getting rid of the discard for it and 2x Snapcaster - side out B&E and some dredge for them, letting us recover from a Relic or such. Doesn't look so hot in theory, but then, sometimes the best options are things that don't.
In my experience, Affinity, Zoo, and Pod aren't so bad - I'd say all of them, with the current list, are around 60/40. That might come down to playstyle, though - cards like Izzet Charm produce a lot of decision trees, and I'm gathering from what you've said thus far that I am much more willing to aggressively mulligan than you are. Against Pod, the only things you really care about are not dying to creatures and preventing Linvalla from shutting you down - the latter being the thing you need to dedicate sideboard space to.
I'm not sure that a 3-mana spell is the answer, given that it doesn't answer Linvalla. Drown in Filth and Magma Jet seem like they'd have the most promise in both furthering our game plan and taking down problem creatures - and DiF can take down Linvalla.
I think the thing that needs the most work is the sideboard - right now, it is all reactive answers to hate, and not very versatile at that. I'd like to work in Back to Nature and Ancient Grudge as well, but I'm not sure how mana answers to Linvalla we really need to keep around.
As far as the "Gifts Ooze" deck goes, here is the list I used to a bit of success:
2x Griselbrand
4x Morselhoarder
4x Necrotic Ooze
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Clutch of the Undercity
2x Dimir Charm
4x Gifts Ungiven
3x Grisly Salvage
4x Izzet Charm
1x Damnation
3x Faithless Looting
2x Unburial Rites
3x City of Brass
2x Darkslick Shores
1x Gemstone Mine
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Island
3x Reflecting Pool
2x River of Tears
1x Swamp
1x Tendo Ice Bridge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Vivid Creek
1x Vivid Grove
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Back to Nature
1x Crime/Punishment
1x Day of Judgment
3x Negate
2x Path to Exile
1x Ray of Revelation
2x Spellskite
1x Wrath of God
I'm going to try to play a daily in the next couple of days, or maybe the premier on Sunday, so I'll give an update on the list then.
Ooze Combo
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
3 Stinkweed Imp
Spells
4 Devil's Play
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Breaking
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Steam Vents
One thing that I like about Devil's Play is that it isn't a totally dead card/draw before the combo. It's a bad removal spell, sure, but it is still a removal spell. The huge disadvantage of Play is that it can be countered, which is admittedly only a problem in some matchups, but it is definitely something to consider if you are facing down UWR or Scapeshift.
I've been toying around with Drown in Filth and Orzhov Guildmage. Drown in Filth is pretty good self-milling removal, but I once whiffed on a 4/4 Scooze because it booted one of my dead lands in response. Orzhov Guildmage was also decent, as it can trade (or die to Bolt) before enabling Necrotic Ooze, and it can still enable N Ooze if it's in play. Getting it booted by Path to Exile is brutal, though, and I'm wondering if there are any lethal creature infinite mana sinks that kill themselves for cheap (Devoted Druid cheap would be best, but we can't always have it that good).
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
Spells
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Ideas Unbound
4 Unburial Rites
2 Devil's Play
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Pyroclasm
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Steam Vents
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
All you're doing till turn 4 is looting and discarding anything but lands, more loot spells, and gifts. By t4, with all this digging and selective discard, I usually have all the combo pieces in the gy but a gifts + whatever and Looting will ensure that. A pile of Ooze + Rites + Devil's Play just feels too sick since we could care less where then end up.
Forbidden Alchemy is really good here with the curve and with Ooze and infinite mana out to dig for Gifts or straight into Devils play and I'm thinking about electrolyze over pyroclasm for the cantrip but I'm not sure.
This is my dredge list
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells
4 Devil's Play
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Breaking
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Steam Vents
So far I think that the gifts version is more consistent. The focus on Loot spells gives you an option of what you want to discard as opposed to dredging which is all luck. In the gifts version by t4 I almost always have everything I need in the GY and a bunch of lands and a gifts in hand to win.
The Gifts version is a turn 5 kill with gifts.. The dredge version is very consistent too but consistent at a turn 4 kill.
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Griselbrand
Spells
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Breaking // Entering
2 Life from the Loam
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Steam Vents
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Maelstrom Pulse
You make a million oozes with kiki in the GY, then untap them all with druid and swing. This lets you cut down a piece of the combo so you don't have to combo for infinite mana and then have to have another piece to use it on.
Edit: whoops just realized that Ooze doesn't gain haste from Kiki-Jiki.
4 Borborygmos Enraged
4 Griselbrand
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Stinkweed Imp
Spells
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
4 Izzet Charm
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Life from the Loam
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Blood Crypt
1 Breeding Pool
1 Godless Shrine
4 Duress
3 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Pyroclasm
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Morselhoarder
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
Spells 21
4 Devil's Play
4 Unburial Rites
4 Faithless Looting
3 Ideas Unbound
2 Goblin Lore
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Island
4 Stony Silence
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Groundseal
2 Defense Grid
1 Qasali Pridemage
Having some success with this version online. What I really like about the deck is that you can combo infinite mana in response to removal, and that hand disruption is very ineffective against it. Counter magic with a clock is an issue though.
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Devoted Druid
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Matter Reshaper
3 Reality Smasher
2 Necrotic Ooze
1 Thornling
1 Quillspike
1 Grim Poppet
1 Pack Rat
1 Prognostic Sphinx
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Collective Brutality
1 Murderous Cut
4 Eldrazi Temple
19 Other Lands
I haven't played much with it but all the interaction is nice. Chaining Thought-Knots while discarding combo pieces is also pretty tasty but who knows.
Doesn't look too bad for a budget version, though I question the utility of Aether Hub over Gemstone Mine, even without Urborg(s).
Yes, I monitor this thread every few months, as this is still a pet deck of mine. I've moved back to a Gifts Ungiven version as of late, as the banning of Grave-Troll made the dredge version less palatable for a while. That build is probably still good (with Stinkweed), but I wanted to give the Gifts version another go. I've been tearing up my LGS with this build lately (4-0 or 3-1 in 15-35 player tourneys three times a week for a few months now, with build variations of course):
4 Morselhoarder
4 Devoted Druid
3 Griselbrand
1 Walking Ballista
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Faithless Looting
3 Gifts Ungiven
3 Izzet Charm
3 Cut//Ribbons
3 Unburial Rites
2 Collective Brutality
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Botanical Sanctum
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Swan Song
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Negate
1 Delay
1 Collective Brutality
I've actually got to go to a tourney right now, but in summation: Cut//Ribbons is a wonderful addition to the deck, Ballista is the best secondary win con printed in a while (for instant speed), the Lilianas in the board are very good, and the deck is coming together. Worst matchups are Bogles (which is why LotV was added to the board in the first place), Abzan non-company (rare, but some around here play it), Jund (depending on build), and RW hate. Pretty much everything else is even to a cakewalk...
More details later, if anyone is curious enough to respond!
Still a different deck, with a very different method of play. No matter your opinion of it, this thread is about the combo build, not a midrange Eldrazi deck...
POST-TOURNEY EDIT: I went 4-0, again, in a 27 player tournament. Lost one game, to mana flood. Beat RG Scapeshift, Grishoalbrand, UW Control, and Grixis Death's Shadow (even got to kill a DS with a Grove - never actually had someone walk into that before). Don't want to change anything in the deck, really, but I'm still vacillating about some sideboard cards, specifically which counterspells (I know I want 4 with 3 different names, for Gifts) and how many/which anti-hate cards.
One change I'm specifically considering is cutting one Cut//Ribbons and the Ballista for a Tasigur and a Geth's Verdict. My MTGO version uses Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius still, for time's sake (a lot less clicks than Ballista), but the paper version doesn't actually care - the Tasigur kill may or may not be better than Ballista, specifically because there is an occasional need to recur enchantment/artifact removal. Just a thought, I'll try it at tomorrow's tourney...
I'm open to any suggestions!