You also can't compare Knight to Champion/Lieutenant as it can grow itself on it's own without needing to chain humans together and is much better on an empty board or as a topdeck,
I'm not comparing in that sense. I'm saying KotR and Tracker are redundant bodies, something we already have 8 copies of. What I imply here is that our 3-drops are not chosen for their dumb size, not at all. But for their effect on the board when they come in, or when they attack (= evasion, create tokens). That's why Garrison is so close (especially with Mimic / Mayor buffing tokens), and Maulfist can be too thanks to Trample and his mini-lord effect.
Now I don't defend the card more than something else, I just wanted to bring it to the table since it might have slipped through people's attention. It's not less viable than Tracker or Knight.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
- Are 21 lands enough with so many 3 drops? I feel you might need an additional land.
With 4 Noble Hierarch, the deck rarely has mana issues. I've been running all sorts of Collected Company decks with 4 Nobles, 21 lands and about the same creature curve, and it's been consistent for me. General rule-of-thumb is that mana dorks act as half of a land, so the deck has "effectively" 23 lands. However, I wouldn't see an issue with cutting something for one more land just to be safe.
- How do you feel about playing only 8 one drops. Path to exile is not really what you want to be doing turn one. Are you thinking about switching some paths for fatal push in the coming weeks?
With a Collected Company deck, you don't want to be running many low impact creatures, so I wouldn't recommend any more than 8. You want to be hitting 2 and 3 drops as much as possible.
As for Path to Exile vs Fatal Push, I think I'm going to stick with Path. The reason being that Path is essentially our "clear the path" card, meaning it needs to get rid of pesky blockers like Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Wurmcoil Engine. Also, exiling is a very important effect in modern with cards like Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence running around. That being said, Fatal Push would be perfect to side in against aggro decks - the Abzan deck can definitely use some more cheap removal against aggro.
- Xathrid necromancer is a great value card but not a very good attacker. Playing both eternal witness and xathrid necromancer how often do you feel you lack pressure with your 3 drops?
However, you make a valid point that the deck lacks higher end efficient beaters like Anafenza. Honestly, from playing the Abzan list and the 4/5C lists, the Abzan list really suffers from the lack of evasion. Mantis Rider is so good against pesky planeswalkers and deals damage out of nowhere - even its vigilance is super relevant against Nahiri, the Harbinger. The Abzan list really stuggles against resolved planeswalkers that generate token blockers, which is one reason why Orzhov Pontiff is in the sideboard. The deck excels against removal/sweeper heavy decks and is pretty good at blocking thanks to Zombie tokens. Another strength of the deck is how quickly it turns the corner. An EOT Collected Company into an Anafenza, the Foremost and just about any other creature means you're about to smack the opponent HARD in the face on your next swing. The other plus side is that Xathrid Necromancer makes your attackers far more disposable, meaning you can force damage through more easily than with other decks. So it's a tradeoff for sure, and maybe someday we'll get some even better 3 drops to play with. I would be more than happy with more Anafenza-esque humans!
And last, but not least, this is my most updated Abzan list:
I've been on 21 lands and 4 dorks for months, it's perfect this way if you play 12+ one-drops overall, and 12-max three-drops.
I'm currently at 22 lands because I cut 4 Bolts and am testing Mimics. Avacyn's Pilgrim as extra dorks were useful in older lists because 2-drops were not as great as now, and it can also be a metal call I guess, but I doubt they're needed without a good reason. Jace, Vryn's prodigy can be a reason since he kind of invites you to discard lands, which can be a trap if you're too low on the lands count.
My 2 cents on that point.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
No bolts? Interesting. What's your thought process so far?
In testing so far I admit that I've underestimated Metallic Mimic. Atm I had basically swapped the Mimics in over BTE. Since Mimic was a bad topdeck I wanted to keep as many good ones as I could, thus choosing to keep Brawler over BTE. Against Elves last night (using non-updated Human list) I needed every piece of removal I could find so I was reluctant to cut the Bolts and/or Helices when I was looking at the list today.
I understand path to exile is an excellent magic card, I was just thinking about the mana curve of the deck and it is not very good on turn one. Modern is such a fast format, games where you have a good turn one play are a lot easier to win. Being able to kill a turn 2 tarmogoyf when you are on the draw without ramping your opponent is really valuable.
I agree playing suboptimal one drop creatures is not the way to solve this problem in a CoCo deck though. Fatal push however looks promising.
I agree, hence why I'd recommend cutting the 2 Dromoka's Command and maybe a 3rd card for copies of Fatal Push. I would strongly recommend not taking out Path to Exile though. On top of my reasons earlier, keep in mind that a lategame Push could very easily be a dead draw since fetchlands will be mostly used up by then, as you're getting beat down by a 3+ drop.
No bolts? Interesting. What's your thought process so far?
The thought process is pretty simple : the stronger a creature-based aggro is, the least interaction it needs. Now, there's two things that can beat this Human deck G1 : a wrath and a faster kill we can't block (efficiently or at all).
- Bolt barely helps against a wrath, it lets you hit your opponent, hopefully for the win but that's a not a plan really. It's possibly as good to have more creatures and have stronger starts before the wrath kills you, in the way Merfolk does it.
- Amongst the faster decks, we're unfavorable G1 anyway, so I plan on the SB and agressive mulls to turn favorable. Bolt doesn't even help against Ad Naus-type decks, and is not enough to contain Elves / Merfolk that go super wide.
Well I might regret it as soon as I get reps with that change. I'll get back to you when all the MUs are re-tested in this config.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
We discussed Vapor Snag and Mana Leak for the maindeck in private, but actually Echoing Truth may be the one card I'm looking for. Because it deals with Bridge, Ph Unlife, tokens (Foundry, Pyro, Souls etc...), O-Stone, an oppressive PW, so it's proactive in that sense. It's also good against an empty board since I can bounce a "lord" effect and replay it, and it obvisouly can protect 1+ creature from opponents' removal or wrath effect. It's the most flexible of those 3 options.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
For anyone that's curious, we are considering options for the last couple flex spots in our 4C builds. Ideally they would offer some assistance against board wipes, boost our clock speed, and/or deal with troublesome permanents.
Mutagenic Growth ((G/P)) "Free" way to always protect one creature from Anger/Bolt or pump for attack
Vapor Snag (U) Cheap, pings 1 life but creatures only
Void Snare (U) Cheap, hits all nonland permanents Sorcery speed, too slow
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Echoing Truth (1U) Expensive, hits all nonland permanents, occasional upside vs Lingering Souls or aggro decks with 2x creature
Into the Roil (1U) Expensive, but can kick to draw another card. Best topdeck.
Simic Charm (GU) Most mana intensive but very flexible. Pumps for attack or to shield one creature from Anger, protects multiple things from Electrolyze, bounces a creature.
Heroic Intervention (1G) Fool-proof sweeper / spot-removal protection, indestructibility could double as a combat trick
Boros Charm (WR) Complete sweeper protection, PW soft-removal, double-strike if we hit 5/5+, 4 dmg reach finish
Sigil Blessing (GW) Could be good against red sweepers and a good attack pump
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Beast Within (2G) Most expensive, deals with anything. Our Champions might block the 3/3.
Detention Sphere (1UW) Also deals with anything. No 3/3 to contend with but it's sorcery speed.
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My guess is that there's a reason Merfolk and Jeskai Aggro play Vapor Snag maindeck over Echoing Truths and that if you're looking for bounce effects I wouldn't be surprised to see it shake out as the best with testing. Those decks have just as much trouble with most of those permanents you mentioned and their clocks aren't so much faster, but at one mana Snag's so much easier to squeeze into your proactive tempo plan, or leave up to play reactively. In short, Mana efficiency probably trumps target flexibility, and 1 CMC is where we have the most space in our curve right now.
I wanted to quickly bring Knight of the Reliquary up again - I think she is fantastic in humans (especially the company builds)
Knight doesn't have as much synergy with our deck as something like garrison or even the wonky outlast guys. However, she has significantly more raw power than the other options and I think that makes the difference. Synergy wins games, but I think its also important to plan for the mulligans, slow starts, interactive opponents, and wrath effects. Knight survives bolt and anger, ghost quarters tron, kills control decks and breaks board stalls with gavony townships, cycles lands with horizon canopy, doubles as a mana dork for explosive starts, beat counters with cavern of souls, and has enough card quality to kill people all by itself.
Any time an on-tribe, on-color, on-plan creature is good enough to see play in other decks, I think it deserves serious consideration. Our knights can be uncounterable, grow our other creatures, and are larger than average. Why would we want a more situational card?
It's all about evasion. The search for naturally evasive humans has lead many of us to four or five color decks with mana requirements that are too tight to squeeze in any utility lands. At that point you lose out on one of the best reasons to run KotR. But what if we look at it the other way and build around KotR?
The Knightfall decks don't have to build with humans so they can compliment KotR's grounded muscle (in color) with evasive, interactive, or high value cards like Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique, Voice of Resurgence, and so forth. As a result the deck as a whole is reasonably well rounded. If you start with KotR and just pile even more grounded, relatively "dumb" beatstick humans around it like Champion, Lieutenant, Anafenza etc. the result won't really be as versatile or powerful as Knightfall IMO.
In short, KotR isn't a bad card but it does lack evasion and needs to be built around. For these reasons many have found it suboptimal in Human lists.
Spirit is much better if can search for it or cheat it into play. I've tried it in my mono white humans and it's okay. They mostly kill it during your turn then wrath on their turn.
Being able to chord or company for it makes it a lot stronger. Red and green get Boros charm and the heroic intervention card, which are instant and harder to play around.
Repel however is an awesome card. Great against burn, creature matchups, and also valakut decks. Doesn't matter how many lands you get or attacks, no damage is going through. You can set up good blocks, fog most infect damage, and trash burn for a turn. Just watch out for random humans your opponents might have.
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"I do as I choose, and I answer to no one!"
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
The difference between Selfless Spirit and something like Heroic Intervention is that you don't have to keep up mana and can just play it and keep attacking slowing the removal plans of the opponent and making him play around it hopefully giving you enough time to finish him off.
If he has multiple removal spells with Wraths then you are not better off with a protection spell imho.
@shelldell : nice to introduce cards that have been very few discussed for a Human deck. I'm starting tests again, and there's just 6 slots I have to figure out.
Either I play 4 Mimics, or 4 Plunderers, or 4 something else. Right now I want to switch to Skyship Plunderers + Echoing Truths and see what happens. And the reason I'm on Truth is because Lyev + Plunderer = 8 X/1s that can't attack through Narcomoeba, Lingering Souls, Thopter Foundry and Bitterblossom. I need sthg MD that can clear the way and Truth is the better option. I expect token strategies to rise online with Fatal Push and other cards coming out, so decks like Faeries, Gifts, Abzan, BW Tokens etc...
I also don't like my BGx MUs that much, and extra flyers certainly help more than Mimics (grows Tarmogoyf argh), Mayors or any grounder basically. I know I won many games with Bolts in those MUs, so now I cut them, I want sthg that can reach no matter what the opponent has on the board.
Plunderer either pumps Champion, or attacks for 3 with Hierarch. So he's the perfect 2-drop really. He grows big when Lieutenant eventually appears.
About Mimic, I ain't sure he's best in the 4C version. I love him with Hanweir Garrison though, so I feel I'd better play him in a WR(x) version that doesn't have access to flyers.
Or maybe BTE can be cut entirely and Mimic + Plunderer is the way to go.
If X/1s are going to be a problem is it worth reconsidering black for Zealous Persecution, Orzhov Pontiff, and/or Golgari Charm?
Another option is Emerge Unscathed, a versatile and efficient protection spell, to get your best beater through for two turns. Or blank removal. Not as good as Brave the Elements but it's an option.
And I've been thinking about trying a list without BTE, too.
Personally I think that Skyship Plunderer isn't good enough.
It's ability is situational (need a creature with counters) and conditional (need to get through for damage and gets walled by any flyer) and as a regular 2/1 flyer it is near limited playability level more so than a modern playable card.
For situational pump effects even a creature such as Consul's Lieutenant (which no one plays even in Mono-White) seems better to me.
To be fair, pushing damage through with a grounded 2/1 to activate an ability is a lot harder than pushing through damage with a flying 2/1 to activate an ability.
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EDIT: I did some more investigation of Metallic Mimic's interaction with CoCo and someone pointed me to Mimic's Gatherer notes:
-Creatures of the chosen type that enter the battlefield at the same time as Metallic Mimic won't enter with an additional +1/+1 counter.
-Even though Metallic Mimic is a Shapeshifter, other Shapeshifter creatures you control wont get a +1/+1 counter unless you chose Shapeshifter as Metallic Mimic entered the battlefield. If you do, that creature must be entering the battlefield as a Shapeshifter to get a +1/+1 counter. It wont get a +1/+1 counter if it enters the battlefield as a copy of a non-Shapeshifter creature.
Apparently since Mimic's ability is a replacement effect instead of a triggered ability like Lieutenant's, it doesn't activate until Mimic is completely on the battlefield. That's too bad, really, and makes the card significantly weaker in a CoCo build.
Skyship Plunderer also seems a lot better with Mimic than without it due to the greater likelihood that Plunderer's ability will be relevant – with Mimic a bit weaker than I realized the new house of cards is wobbling a bit...
It's ability is situational (need a creature with counters) and conditional (need to get through for damage and gets walled by any flyer) and as a regular 2/1 flyer it is near limited playability level more so than a modern playable card.
It's ability is a bonus, don't see it as what makes the card playable in the first place. BTE is a 2/2 vanilla that gives GR, it's a bonus in case you have sthg else to cascade into. Does that make the card unplayable ? GR Zoo answers you a resonant no.
Shelldell made the point, a flyer is great in the format because it gets through most of the time. When you say it's blocked by any flyer, you imply the format has plenty of them, but that's untrue. Nexus in Infect wins games just because it flies, and Affinity is a deck because of evasion. Those decks are Tier 1 and I believe it's good to go in their direction.
The spirit archetype won an SCG Open (or something close) with 1/1 and 2/1 flyers, and those little things would like to have a discussion with you...
If X/1s are going to be a problem is it worth reconsidering black for Zealous Persecution, Orzhov Pontiff, and/or Golgari Charm?
Another option is Emerge Unscathed, a versatile and efficient protection spell, to get your best beater through for two turns. Or blank removal. Not as good as Brave the Elements but it's an option.
Impossible for me to add black, because I need Mantis in my 60, so adding black would mean 5C. For now, I don't know a good mana configuration with Coco. In red, there's Electrickery that does the... trick. But actually Echoing Truth is perfect here, I don't see why I should look for sthg else.
About Emerged uscathed and such, actually I don't like those cards that answer narrow stuff for the main deck. Bolt is good because it always play towards our plan. I mean, if I want something that doesn't hit the player, at least I want that card to hit things I can't trade with creatures : I have Bridge in mind (and other prison / wrath permanents), flying tokens generators, unraceable PWs, Kalitas and his tokens, Prime Time / Grisel / Elesh. I have answers to those things in the SB, but a couple Truths seem ok as additional outs in the main, since they help in ANY situation, not just wraths or blocking creatures.
But this is all talking, I'll get some reps before I make my conclusion.
Has anyone been playing with tireless tracker? I played with two in my maindeck yesterday and was impressed.
I wanted to ask you guys how bad the nonbo with champion/lieutenant is (tracker entering the battlefield causes a trigger, so he can be bolted before you get to play a land)
I could always try witness but she's harder to cast, smaller, weak to gy hate, and has a lower ceiling
Besides Anafenza, all 3-drops die to Bolt. It's not a primary reason to dismiss a creature. I know that's not quite your point, but mine is that we have to compose with any 3-drop we choose to play. There's always a situation where it's not great, or where our opponent can respond. I would say it's not so bad whether Tracker dies before you play a land, you still pump a Champ/Lt ready to attack. If you play Mantis Rider and it gets bolted, what's the difference ? You have to accept any creature in your deck will die to something, no big deal.
Now my experience with Tracker was rather disappointing. It takes a million years to grow her big enough to get through Tarmo, Tas, Rhino, etc... all those X/5s. Like Thraben Inspector, I saw myself losing or winning with clues on the battlefield because I never found the right spot to crack them. Since I know Humans can't win the grind against decks that are built to grind, it's a lost cause to bet on the late game. In the early game, it gets blocked by bigger dudes on the ground, so I'd rather play Witness for that kind of effect.
Witness has a higher ceiling when you get back Coco. Coco is the strongest card in the deck if you play it.
I've found Quasali Pridemage does a lot of what you wanted echoing thrush to do while also being a creature.
Problem is it doesn't deal with flying X/1s, PWs and other minor (but unbeatable) situations. Qasali is a 2-of in my SB (that can be Hurkyl's Recall now) because I expect too many MUs to be immune to his ability.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Besides Anafenza, all 3-drops die to Bolt. It's not a primary reason to dismiss a creature. I know that's not quite your point, but mine is that we have to compose with any 3-drop we choose to play. There's always a situation where it's not great, or where our opponent can respond. I would say it's not so bad whether Tracker dies before you play a land, you still pump a Champ/Lt ready to attack. If you play Mantis Rider and it gets bolted, what's the difference ? You have to accept any creature in your deck will die to something, no big deal.
I went:
2-1 vs Bant Eldrazi (Lost dice roll)
2-1 vs G/W Tron (Won dice roll)
2-1 vs Grixis Delver (Lost dice roll)
Eldrazi was a difficult match. I sided in the riders of Gavony, but didn't draw into it. In the end, I lost game 1, won game 2 by just out tempoing my opponent with strong humans + bouncing a reality smasher with reflector mage. It looked like I was going to lose game 3 as well, but I got lucky with a double mantis rider Collected Company that swung it in my favour.
G/W Tron was pretty straightforward. I won turn 4 with an explosive start while he had trouble drawing into his lands and spent a lot of mana on searches. On game 2, I drew a slow start on the draw and got board cleared by an early Ugin. Game 3, he had the lands that he needed in his opening hand, but I started with Champion of the Parish, drew Thalia and played her on curve, delaying his third land. On turn 4 I played meddling mage, calling Ugin the Spirit Dragon, then won on turn 5.
I lost game 1 against Grixis when I drew nothing but a few 1 drops that kept dying to lightning bolt/fatal push/terminate + an overload of non-fetch lands + a renegade rallier while my opponent quickly summoned a Tassigur. On game 2, I managed to play threats faster than he could remove them with them and overwhelmed him. Game 3 was looking like game 1 did in the beginning, but this time when he tapped out to play fast 5/5 delve creatures, I had a reflector mage in hand the first time, and a collected company into double champion of the parish the second time. It ended in a race where Lyev Sky Knight stopped his blocker while my other creatures ended the game. Game 1 was totally my fault for not mulliganing.
Findings:
Renegade Rallier was close to dead in both games that I drew it, but both times that I drew it were games in which I didn't draw any fetch lands (Game 1 vs Eldrazi, Game 2 vs Grixis). It might be a sign that 8 fetches aren't enough to reliably trigger him. Perhaps replacing some of the basic lands with Arid Mesas would help if I were willing to pay for them.
Skyship Plunderer never did anything particularly amazing. He got through an attack that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to make against Eldrazi, but I'm not sure that the 2 damage was what won the game. It might be that Lyev Skyknight, Path to Exile, Thalia Heretic Cathar, and Reflector Mage are enough to get around blockers.
Both Thalias did much better than I expected them to, I might increase the count of them.
I didn't draw the Skyknight often, but when I did, it proved excellent when racing, detaining a larger blocker against both Tron and Grixis and allowing me to seal the game.
Lightning Bolt vulnerability was less of a problem than expected. The entire deck is boltable, and with Noble Hierarch, Champion of the Parish, and Thalia's Lieutenant being so threatening if unanswered, they usually acted as lightning rods that drew removal before the Sky Knight or Mantis Rider entered the field, and Mantis Rider usually got in a hit anyway as most of the time I happened to play him on a turn that my opponent was tapped out on.
I would absolutely never cut Mantis Rider, Reflector Mage, or Collected Company. They're the main sources of tempo swings that I needed in order to outrace when on the draw.
Disclaimer: I only got into Magic during Eldritch Moon, and this is the first modern deck that I've built and it was my first modern set of games against actual competitive decks. I know my sideboard is pretty awful, I'm working on getting some better options, but I wanted to give it a try with what I had (I focused on getting my main deck cards first).
I'm not comparing in that sense. I'm saying KotR and Tracker are redundant bodies, something we already have 8 copies of. What I imply here is that our 3-drops are not chosen for their dumb size, not at all. But for their effect on the board when they come in, or when they attack (= evasion, create tokens). That's why Garrison is so close (especially with Mimic / Mayor buffing tokens), and Maulfist can be too thanks to Trample and his mini-lord effect.
Now I don't defend the card more than something else, I just wanted to bring it to the table since it might have slipped through people's attention. It's not less viable than Tracker or Knight.
With 4 Noble Hierarch, the deck rarely has mana issues. I've been running all sorts of Collected Company decks with 4 Nobles, 21 lands and about the same creature curve, and it's been consistent for me. General rule-of-thumb is that mana dorks act as half of a land, so the deck has "effectively" 23 lands. However, I wouldn't see an issue with cutting something for one more land just to be safe.
With a Collected Company deck, you don't want to be running many low impact creatures, so I wouldn't recommend any more than 8. You want to be hitting 2 and 3 drops as much as possible.
As for Path to Exile vs Fatal Push, I think I'm going to stick with Path. The reason being that Path is essentially our "clear the path" card, meaning it needs to get rid of pesky blockers like Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Wurmcoil Engine. Also, exiling is a very important effect in modern with cards like Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence running around. That being said, Fatal Push would be perfect to side in against aggro decks - the Abzan deck can definitely use some more cheap removal against aggro.
Also, I'd be more willing to take out the Dromoka's Commands for Fatal Push.
Xathrid Necromancer is just like a lot of the other Humans cards - he needs help from his friends! That's why the deck runs full playsets of both Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck. Also, don't underestimate the relevancy of Anafenza, the Foremost's attack trigger.
Eternal Witness is such a huge hit off of Collected Company that it's hard not to include in the deck.
However, you make a valid point that the deck lacks higher end efficient beaters like Anafenza. Honestly, from playing the Abzan list and the 4/5C lists, the Abzan list really suffers from the lack of evasion. Mantis Rider is so good against pesky planeswalkers and deals damage out of nowhere - even its vigilance is super relevant against Nahiri, the Harbinger. The Abzan list really stuggles against resolved planeswalkers that generate token blockers, which is one reason why Orzhov Pontiff is in the sideboard. The deck excels against removal/sweeper heavy decks and is pretty good at blocking thanks to Zombie tokens. Another strength of the deck is how quickly it turns the corner. An EOT Collected Company into an Anafenza, the Foremost and just about any other creature means you're about to smack the opponent HARD in the face on your next swing. The other plus side is that Xathrid Necromancer makes your attackers far more disposable, meaning you can force damage through more easily than with other decks. So it's a tradeoff for sure, and maybe someday we'll get some even better 3 drops to play with. I would be more than happy with more Anafenza-esque humans!
And last, but not least, this is my most updated Abzan list:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
Spells (10)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's command
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
4 Thoughtseize
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I'm currently at 22 lands because I cut 4 Bolts and am testing Mimics.
Avacyn's Pilgrim as extra dorks were useful in older lists because 2-drops were not as great as now, and it can also be a metal call I guess, but I doubt they're needed without a good reason. Jace, Vryn's prodigy can be a reason since he kind of invites you to discard lands, which can be a trap if you're too low on the lands count.
My 2 cents on that point.
In testing so far I admit that I've underestimated Metallic Mimic. Atm I had basically swapped the Mimics in over BTE. Since Mimic was a bad topdeck I wanted to keep as many good ones as I could, thus choosing to keep Brawler over BTE. Against Elves last night (using non-updated Human list) I needed every piece of removal I could find so I was reluctant to cut the Bolts and/or Helices when I was looking at the list today.
I agree, hence why I'd recommend cutting the 2 Dromoka's Command and maybe a 3rd card for copies of Fatal Push. I would strongly recommend not taking out Path to Exile though. On top of my reasons earlier, keep in mind that a lategame Push could very easily be a dead draw since fetchlands will be mostly used up by then, as you're getting beat down by a 3+ drop.
The thought process is pretty simple : the stronger a creature-based aggro is, the least interaction it needs. Now, there's two things that can beat this Human deck G1 : a wrath and a faster kill we can't block (efficiently or at all).
- Bolt barely helps against a wrath, it lets you hit your opponent, hopefully for the win but that's a not a plan really. It's possibly as good to have more creatures and have stronger starts before the wrath kills you, in the way Merfolk does it.
- Amongst the faster decks, we're unfavorable G1 anyway, so I plan on the SB and agressive mulls to turn favorable. Bolt doesn't even help against Ad Naus-type decks, and is not enough to contain Elves / Merfolk that go super wide.
Well I might regret it as soon as I get reps with that change. I'll get back to you when all the MUs are re-tested in this config.
Mutagenic Growth ((G/P)) "Free" way to always protect one creature from Anger/Bolt or pump for attack
Blossoming Defense (G) Save one creature from almost anything and pump
Vapor Snag (U) Cheap, pings 1 life but creatures only
Void Snare (U) Cheap, hits all nonland permanentsSorcery speed, too slow--
Echoing Truth (1U) Expensive, hits all nonland permanents, occasional upside vs Lingering Souls or aggro decks with 2x creature
Into the Roil (1U) Expensive, but can kick to draw another card. Best topdeck.
Simic Charm (GU) Most mana intensive but very flexible. Pumps for attack or to shield one creature from Anger, protects multiple things from Electrolyze, bounces a creature.
Heroic Intervention (1G) Fool-proof sweeper / spot-removal protection, indestructibility could double as a combat trick
Boros Charm (WR) Complete sweeper protection, PW soft-removal, double-strike if we hit 5/5+, 4 dmg reach finish
Dromoka's Command (GW) Red sweeper protection, Answers Bloodmoon, situational spot removal, pump
Sigil Blessing (GW) Could be good against red sweepers and a good attack pump
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Beast Within (2G) Most expensive, deals with anything. Our Champions might block the 3/3.
Detention Sphere (1UW) Also deals with anything. No 3/3 to contend with but it's sorcery speed.
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My guess is that there's a reason Merfolk and Jeskai Aggro play Vapor Snag maindeck over Echoing Truths and that if you're looking for bounce effects I wouldn't be surprised to see it shake out as the best with testing. Those decks have just as much trouble with most of those permanents you mentioned and their clocks aren't so much faster, but at one mana Snag's so much easier to squeeze into your proactive tempo plan, or leave up to play reactively. In short, Mana efficiency probably trumps target flexibility, and 1 CMC is where we have the most space in our curve right now.
Knight doesn't have as much synergy with our deck as something like garrison or even the wonky outlast guys. However, she has significantly more raw power than the other options and I think that makes the difference. Synergy wins games, but I think its also important to plan for the mulligans, slow starts, interactive opponents, and wrath effects. Knight survives bolt and anger, ghost quarters tron, kills control decks and breaks board stalls with gavony townships, cycles lands with horizon canopy, doubles as a mana dork for explosive starts, beat counters with cavern of souls, and has enough card quality to kill people all by itself.
Any time an on-tribe, on-color, on-plan creature is good enough to see play in other decks, I think it deserves serious consideration. Our knights can be uncounterable, grow our other creatures, and are larger than average. Why would we want a more situational card?
The Knightfall decks don't have to build with humans so they can compliment KotR's grounded muscle (in color) with evasive, interactive, or high value cards like Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique, Voice of Resurgence, and so forth. As a result the deck as a whole is reasonably well rounded. If you start with KotR and just pile even more grounded, relatively "dumb" beatstick humans around it like Champion, Lieutenant, Anafenza etc. the result won't really be as versatile or powerful as Knightfall IMO.
In short, KotR isn't a bad card but it does lack evasion and needs to be built around. For these reasons many have found it suboptimal in Human lists.
Being able to chord or company for it makes it a lot stronger. Red and green get Boros charm and the heroic intervention card, which are instant and harder to play around.
Repel however is an awesome card. Great against burn, creature matchups, and also valakut decks. Doesn't matter how many lands you get or attacks, no damage is going through. You can set up good blocks, fog most infect damage, and trash burn for a turn. Just watch out for random humans your opponents might have.
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
If he has multiple removal spells with Wraths then you are not better off with a protection spell imho.
Either I play 4 Mimics, or 4 Plunderers, or 4 something else. Right now I want to switch to Skyship Plunderers + Echoing Truths and see what happens. And the reason I'm on Truth is because Lyev + Plunderer = 8 X/1s that can't attack through Narcomoeba, Lingering Souls, Thopter Foundry and Bitterblossom. I need sthg MD that can clear the way and Truth is the better option. I expect token strategies to rise online with Fatal Push and other cards coming out, so decks like Faeries, Gifts, Abzan, BW Tokens etc...
I also don't like my BGx MUs that much, and extra flyers certainly help more than Mimics (grows Tarmogoyf argh), Mayors or any grounder basically. I know I won many games with Bolts in those MUs, so now I cut them, I want sthg that can reach no matter what the opponent has on the board.
Plunderer either pumps Champion, or attacks for 3 with Hierarch. So he's the perfect 2-drop really. He grows big when Lieutenant eventually appears.
About Mimic, I ain't sure he's best in the 4C version. I love him with Hanweir Garrison though, so I feel I'd better play him in a WR(x) version that doesn't have access to flyers.
Or maybe BTE can be cut entirely and Mimic + Plunderer is the way to go.
Another option is Emerge Unscathed, a versatile and efficient protection spell, to get your best beater through for two turns. Or blank removal. Not as good as Brave the Elements but it's an option.
And I've been thinking about trying a list without BTE, too.
It's ability is situational (need a creature with counters) and conditional (need to get through for damage and gets walled by any flyer) and as a regular 2/1 flyer it is near limited playability level more so than a modern playable card.
For situational pump effects even a creature such as Consul's Lieutenant (which no one plays even in Mono-White) seems better to me.
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EDIT: I did some more investigation of Metallic Mimic's interaction with CoCo and someone pointed me to Mimic's Gatherer notes:
-Creatures of the chosen type that enter the battlefield at the same time as Metallic Mimic won't enter with an additional +1/+1 counter.
-Even though Metallic Mimic is a Shapeshifter, other Shapeshifter creatures you control wont get a +1/+1 counter unless you chose Shapeshifter as Metallic Mimic entered the battlefield. If you do, that creature must be entering the battlefield as a Shapeshifter to get a +1/+1 counter. It wont get a +1/+1 counter if it enters the battlefield as a copy of a non-Shapeshifter creature.
Apparently since Mimic's ability is a replacement effect instead of a triggered ability like Lieutenant's, it doesn't activate until Mimic is completely on the battlefield. That's too bad, really, and makes the card significantly weaker in a CoCo build.
Skyship Plunderer also seems a lot better with Mimic than without it due to the greater likelihood that Plunderer's ability will be relevant – with Mimic a bit weaker than I realized the new house of cards is wobbling a bit...
It's ability is a bonus, don't see it as what makes the card playable in the first place. BTE is a 2/2 vanilla that gives GR, it's a bonus in case you have sthg else to cascade into. Does that make the card unplayable ? GR Zoo answers you a resonant no.
Shelldell made the point, a flyer is great in the format because it gets through most of the time. When you say it's blocked by any flyer, you imply the format has plenty of them, but that's untrue. Nexus in Infect wins games just because it flies, and Affinity is a deck because of evasion. Those decks are Tier 1 and I believe it's good to go in their direction.
The spirit archetype won an SCG Open (or something close) with 1/1 and 2/1 flyers, and those little things would like to have a discussion with you...
Impossible for me to add black, because I need Mantis in my 60, so adding black would mean 5C. For now, I don't know a good mana configuration with Coco. In red, there's Electrickery that does the... trick. But actually Echoing Truth is perfect here, I don't see why I should look for sthg else.
About Emerged uscathed and such, actually I don't like those cards that answer narrow stuff for the main deck. Bolt is good because it always play towards our plan. I mean, if I want something that doesn't hit the player, at least I want that card to hit things I can't trade with creatures : I have Bridge in mind (and other prison / wrath permanents), flying tokens generators, unraceable PWs, Kalitas and his tokens, Prime Time / Grisel / Elesh. I have answers to those things in the SB, but a couple Truths seem ok as additional outs in the main, since they help in ANY situation, not just wraths or blocking creatures.
But this is all talking, I'll get some reps before I make my conclusion.
I wanted to ask you guys how bad the nonbo with champion/lieutenant is (tracker entering the battlefield causes a trigger, so he can be bolted before you get to play a land)
I could always try witness but she's harder to cast, smaller, weak to gy hate, and has a lower ceiling
Now my experience with Tracker was rather disappointing. It takes a million years to grow her big enough to get through Tarmo, Tas, Rhino, etc... all those X/5s. Like Thraben Inspector, I saw myself losing or winning with clues on the battlefield because I never found the right spot to crack them. Since I know Humans can't win the grind against decks that are built to grind, it's a lost cause to bet on the late game. In the early game, it gets blocked by bigger dudes on the ground, so I'd rather play Witness for that kind of effect.
Witness has a higher ceiling when you get back Coco. Coco is the strongest card in the deck if you play it.
Problem is it doesn't deal with flying X/1s, PWs and other minor (but unbeatable) situations. Qasali is a 2-of in my SB (that can be Hurkyl's Recall now) because I expect too many MUs to be immune to his ability.
This is all true, which is why we prioritize creatures that do stuff the turn they're played. Mantis Rider has haste, Reflector Mage, Lyev Skyknight and Eternal Witness have ETB effects.
Spells:
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
3x Skyship Plunderer
1x Mayor of Avabruk
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Lyev Skyknight
2x Renegade Rallier
4x Reflector Mage
4x Mantis Rider
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Lands:
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
1x Breeding Pool
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Plains
3x Forest
1x Island
Sideboard:
- 3x Mana Leaks
- 1x Remand
- 1x Riders of Gavony
- 3x Soul Warden
- 4x Dromoka's Command
- 2x Meddling Mage
- 1x Archangel Avacyn
I went:
2-1 vs Bant Eldrazi (Lost dice roll)
2-1 vs G/W Tron (Won dice roll)
2-1 vs Grixis Delver (Lost dice roll)
Eldrazi was a difficult match. I sided in the riders of Gavony, but didn't draw into it. In the end, I lost game 1, won game 2 by just out tempoing my opponent with strong humans + bouncing a reality smasher with reflector mage. It looked like I was going to lose game 3 as well, but I got lucky with a double mantis rider Collected Company that swung it in my favour.
G/W Tron was pretty straightforward. I won turn 4 with an explosive start while he had trouble drawing into his lands and spent a lot of mana on searches. On game 2, I drew a slow start on the draw and got board cleared by an early Ugin. Game 3, he had the lands that he needed in his opening hand, but I started with Champion of the Parish, drew Thalia and played her on curve, delaying his third land. On turn 4 I played meddling mage, calling Ugin the Spirit Dragon, then won on turn 5.
I lost game 1 against Grixis when I drew nothing but a few 1 drops that kept dying to lightning bolt/fatal push/terminate + an overload of non-fetch lands + a renegade rallier while my opponent quickly summoned a Tassigur. On game 2, I managed to play threats faster than he could remove them with them and overwhelmed him. Game 3 was looking like game 1 did in the beginning, but this time when he tapped out to play fast 5/5 delve creatures, I had a reflector mage in hand the first time, and a collected company into double champion of the parish the second time. It ended in a race where Lyev Sky Knight stopped his blocker while my other creatures ended the game. Game 1 was totally my fault for not mulliganing.
Findings:
Renegade Rallier was close to dead in both games that I drew it, but both times that I drew it were games in which I didn't draw any fetch lands (Game 1 vs Eldrazi, Game 2 vs Grixis). It might be a sign that 8 fetches aren't enough to reliably trigger him. Perhaps replacing some of the basic lands with Arid Mesas would help if I were willing to pay for them.
Skyship Plunderer never did anything particularly amazing. He got through an attack that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to make against Eldrazi, but I'm not sure that the 2 damage was what won the game. It might be that Lyev Skyknight, Path to Exile, Thalia Heretic Cathar, and Reflector Mage are enough to get around blockers.
Both Thalias did much better than I expected them to, I might increase the count of them.
I didn't draw the Skyknight often, but when I did, it proved excellent when racing, detaining a larger blocker against both Tron and Grixis and allowing me to seal the game.
Lightning Bolt vulnerability was less of a problem than expected. The entire deck is boltable, and with Noble Hierarch, Champion of the Parish, and Thalia's Lieutenant being so threatening if unanswered, they usually acted as lightning rods that drew removal before the Sky Knight or Mantis Rider entered the field, and Mantis Rider usually got in a hit anyway as most of the time I happened to play him on a turn that my opponent was tapped out on.
I would absolutely never cut Mantis Rider, Reflector Mage, or Collected Company. They're the main sources of tempo swings that I needed in order to outrace when on the draw.
Disclaimer: I only got into Magic during Eldritch Moon, and this is the first modern deck that I've built and it was my first modern set of games against actual competitive decks. I know my sideboard is pretty awful, I'm working on getting some better options, but I wanted to give it a try with what I had (I focused on getting my main deck cards first).