This is my current list. Thoughts? I'm still pretty high on smuggler's copters. http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/250386
I'm taking this to GP Dallas.
I'm fairly certain this is this is the 75 want to take but want opinions
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"I do as I choose, and I answer to no one!"
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
I used to run 4x Xathrid Necromancer, maybe I'll go back to that. It just felt more like a contingency plan than a card that will help me win the game. Repel the Abominable is a good call too.
I was also looking at your Heroic Deck thread, and it got me back onto the idea I've had before that what this deck might really need is a splash of green for pump spells. Hardened Scales and Solidarity of Heroes immediately jump to mind. But then on the other hand why do I have black other than for Dark Confidant and Zealous Persecution really?
@Fencerkid
What are your experiences with Mikaeus, the Lunarch? Also have been thinking about him before.
He provides a lot of value early and late game, since the counters stick around.
Playing him late game and he gets pretty big just to attack and block with.
He's a bit slow though, though if you follow him up with with Thalia's lieutenant you can put an extra counter on all creatures for free.
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"I do as I choose, and I answer to no one!"
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
High Priest wins me games, even as a Standard Bearer but he needs a lot of support for the demons against non-aggro decks. His main value is that he gives my creatures evasion by making blocking a bad choice or/and makes swinging into my field a bad option. I find he's not for straight aggro decks though, he's more for grindy midrange decks. High Priest is what allows my deck to have a late game with a low curve.
-I used to run Necromancer as well and if I were to go back to an aggro build I'd run him again. He stacks, works well with zealous, blood soaked and mutavault, acts like a Standard Bearer against kill spells, and lets you swing into larger creatures to push through damage.
-I also used to run a casual gw human aggro decks that used Hamlet Captain, Accorder Paladin and Wild Beastmaster to great but math taxing effect.
It's great to see a humans thread alive and well in modern! Especially with all these different color combos. Very interesting stuff.
I'm curious...what is everyone's matchups like? I'm on monowhite, and currently I consistently beat jund, control, tron, and combo. Aggro is tougher, but most matchups I feel like are in my favor.
The only decks I really don't like to see are eldrazi, lantern control, affinity, elves, valakut, and coco decks. Dredge is really tough game 1 as well, but I've got a pretty sweet sideboard that seems to be working out against em.
I'll post a list after work if anyone is interested
This list is pretty low on curve, running 19 one-drop humans. So your chances of going t1 champion of the parish into t2 two one-drop humans is good. Icatian javelineers and banisher priest have both been surprisingly good at removing key creatures. Especially against infect and affinity. Student of warfare is a great mid-late game threat and mana sink. Thraben inspector is the weakest card in the deck for sure, but the extra card draw is nice, especially when you need him to trade with another creature, and the two toughness is more relevant than you would think. Thalia's lieutenant is self explanatory. Honor of the pure and spectral procession are hands down two of the most important cards in the deck. That's pretty much how I beat removal heavy decks. Anthem effects and difficult creature spells. Brave the elements is an amazing card, and is the reason I decided to go monowhite. It auto-wins you so many games, and can even be used defensively against burn, zoo, and merfolk as a kind of one sided board wipe. Burn and zoo are also why I like going monowhite. A painfree manabase makes racing those two decks relatively easy since they already do so much damage to themselves.
In the board, grafdigger's cage hits dredge, coco decks, living end, grishoalbrand, and shuts off snapcasters and nahiri's ultimate. Celestial purge is a recent addition, mainly because I've seen so many Chandra's, Lilliana's, and Nahiri's online this past week or two. Seems like every control deck is running at least 1-2 red/black planeswalkers these days, and purge is a clean answer, in addition to hitting other problem cards like eidolon of the great revel, grim lavamancer, and izzet staticaster. Declaration in stone is quickly becoming my favorite removal spell, and I'm beginning to think it deserves a spot in the main. The card is always a 3-for-1 or a 4-for-1 against dredge, and occasionally a 2-for-1 against other creature decks. Actually, it happens more often than you would think against non-dredge decks. It wipes tokens out, which is important against lingering souls and timely reinforcements, and it's also important just to have a two mana catch-all answer since chalice of the void for one is the go to sideboard strategy for some of the eldrazi decks. Thalia, guardian of thraben is there for infect, burn, combo, valakut, delver, or any other spell driven deck. Sundering growth is also a good catchall that plays well with spectral procession and gets around chalice for 1. Anthem effects are so good against control and jund, that I decided to put a one of Dictate of heliod in the board. I've only cast it in game twice, but it won me both games immediately. Finally, Blessed alliance is against aggro and infect. Though the card has been pretty underwhelming so far. On two separate occasions when I had it against infect, the opponent purposely played around it by attacking with two creatures. And honestly, I beat control and jund pretty frequently without ever seeing any sideboard cards, so I'm considering dropping them all three for something that would help against valakut, aggro, or eldrazi. Though, admittedly, I feel at times that my losses to those particular decks have more to do with a lack of skill on my part than of the deck itself. But I've practicing a ton and am getting better. With the exception of the decks I listed and a couple of fringe decks, everything else is cake work.
Would appreciate any and all input my fellow humans have to offer
I did try ghostly prison in the board back when I still ran 19 lands, but sometimes I would have trouble hitting 3 mana on turn 3. I may try it again now that I'm up to 20 lands, but I don't like that burn can play around it
One special card I would like to mention is shining shoal. The first iteration of this deck ran a full playset in the main over path to exile alongside a full set of spectral procession. Even though spectral procession only costs three in my deck, the actual converted cost is 6. So exiling it meant a shoals for 6. Additionally, Shoals doesn't target the source of damage, and the effect last on the source of damage till end of turn.
This led to plays like;
Redirecting 2 infect damage back to the opponent, even though it was hexproof, which bought me an extra turn to win the game.
redirecting 6 damage from an anger of the gods, saving 3 creatures and burning the opponent for 6, even though I was tapped out.
Redirecting 6 damage from a single valakut, even though it was dealing damage from two separate triggers.
and finally, redirecting 3 damage from an eidolon of the great revel, and then casting two one drop creatures to burn my opponent for 3 while advancing my board.
I ultimately dropped the card due to inconsistencies. It sat in my hand dead sometimes since I run so many 1 mana spells, but I've noticed that some of you have a higher curve in your lists here. Shoals for 3-6 is often times a total blowout, or at the very least can put you way ahead in the race. I thought it might be worth considering
Oh, and if you do decide to play it, don't bring it in against value decks or hand disrupting decks like jund or eldrazi. 2-for-oneing yourself isn't worth it against them
I'm curious, has anyone tried angel's grace in the board? That could buy you an extra turn against valakut, aggro, and infect. and outright kill most combo decks
I'm curious...what is everyone's matchups like? I'm on monowhite, and currently I consistently beat jund, control, tron, and combo. Aggro is tougher, but most matchups I feel like are in my favor.
The only decks I really don't like to see are eldrazi, lantern control, affinity, elves, valakut, and coco decks. Dredge is really tough game 1 as well, but I've got a pretty sweet sideboard that seems to be working out against em.
The 4C version struggles against Burn G1, so big SB needed. The control decks that can go wide are tough too, it's impossible to beat Blood Moon + Keranos, or Elspeth + Resto Angel, or Ugin + Wurmcoil, Nahiri + Snap Cryptic or wrath. To sum up, the decks that can 2-for-1 too easily (Burn is one of them thanks to Searing B's).
The cumfortable MUs are Affinity, Dredge, Eldrazi, Tron (usually we beat them on time and can go through one win con), Jund, Infect, etc... the big decks actually.
I'm curious, has anyone tried angel's grace in the board? That could buy you an extra turn against valakut, aggro, and infect. and outright kill most combo decks
Grace is way too reactive and narrow. I actually tried Repel and Thalia to beat Ad Naus, which is one close MU. All these cards were disappointing in comparison to Mana Leak or Negate. Grace is super narrow in comparison to counterspells and Thalia, and I ended up not having room for such narrow applications. If you don't run blue, I guess Thalia is good against combo decks, and Blessed Alliance better than Repel against Burn and common aggro decks.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Fortunately for you, Mother of Runes and Benevolent Bodyguard have been un-banned, according to September 2016.
If you're playing humans, I'd suggest Sigarda (I know she's not human, but she boosts your humans) and Sigarda's Priest (helps suppress non-human creatures.)
Other than that, I'm not sure what I'd give you, having never played humans before.
Fortunately for you, Mother of Runes and Benevolent Bodyguard have been un-banned, according to September 2016.
If you're playing humans, I'd suggest Sigarda (I know she's not human, but she boosts your humans) and Sigarda's Priest (helps suppress non-human creatures.)
Other than that, I'm not sure what I'd give you, having never played humans before.
Mom and benevolent bodyguard were never banned, they just haven't been in a modern legal set and therefor cannot be played.
Also assuming you mean sigarda, heron's grace, a 5 drop do nothing is absolutely not where this deck wants to be. She is completely unplayable in modern. sigarda, host of herons is better, but still not good for this deck.
It was a fun deck and definitely takes rounds from some of the top tier decks, but I felt like it was missing some overall power. After that, I wanted to try going slightly off the beaten path, so I cooked up a brew which I have called "Stabby Humans"
This deck is a lot of fun and pulls wins out of nowhere. Thraben Inspector's clue token plays really nicely with Puresteel Paladin and allows for some quick draws with lots of things being equipped. The downside is that it is open to Affinity hate cards, but the good thing is that it can still win without the equipment strategy. Also, I think this deck has some room to grow by utilizing cards like Auriok Steelshaper and Ardent Recruit.
After that, I wanted to go back to the pure aggro vibe, but with more power than the mono white version. I started looking at adding green and the results have been great so far:
Now this is more like it. Very consistent, fast curve. It's been consistently overrunning opponents, even Affinity. A T1 Champion of the Parish is all but guaranteed to be a 3/3 on turn 2 and generally gets out of hand absurdly quick. A T1 or T2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros isn't difficult to flip on T3. On top of that, the value at the other 1 cmc slots is great in this deck. Warden of the First Tree is a great late game draw, but can also very quickly be a 3/3 or bigger in the early game. Student of Warfare is similar, but unfortunately needs to be activated at sorcery speed. The best part of these two cards is that they allow more flexibility when playing around sweepers by giving an alternative mana sink when you don't want to commit more to the board. Thraben Inspector doesn't need much explanation, but the card draw is always welcome. In the 2 cmc spot, Mayor of Avabruck and Hamlet Captain are great pickups. The weakness of the mono white version was drawing stuff like Honor of the Pure or Brave the Elements when it was much preferred to have a creature. With the green splash, we've got anthems attached to bodies, which is great for ETB triggers and providing even more bodies to apply the anthem effects to. In fact, there are only 6 cards in the main that don't put creatures on the battlefield. Going Hamlet Captain into Thalia's Lieutenant + swing is just brutal. It's also worthy to note another new addition, Blossoming Defense, which is a great way to push through damage against larger creatures or protect a 7/7 Champion of the Parish. The sideboard is still up for grabs.
So far, this GW version is my favorite. It has good matchups against almost all the top decks, with plenty of relevant sideboard options.
Anyways, I hope these lists help! I haven't gotten to look through this thread a lot yet, so I apologize if this stuff is old news.
I dig the green white list a lot. I ran a similar one a while back but I also had 4 collected company. That made recovery from boardwipes much more tolerable.
I've finally come around that monowhite just isn't competitive enough for modern. It's really really close though. I decided to splash blue for some counter magic and ive also changed my board up dramatically. Thanks to cosmiccharlie's advice, ive tried out ghostly prison, and it is a fantastic card. Prison + thalia or two prisons stacked up are a knockout against a lot of decks. Spell pierce has also helped shore up painful matches a good bit. A card that has been surprisingly good for me as well is lyev skyknight. The ETB ability typically isn't that great, but the fact it's a 3/1 flyer makes it really strong against midrange. Also really good late game drop against control if you have an anthem effect going. 4/2 flyer is a fast clock!
You guys were right about angel's grace. It was just too easy for valakut to play around. Repel the abominable hasn't really helped much either though. I'm trying thalia and counterspells in that match up now and my win% seems to have gone up a little
At the moment I'm playing around with geist of st. Traft and gryff's boon in the main. Mixed results there so far. Sometimes amazing. Sometimes too slow to keep up. Depends on the opponent.
I expect a lot of aggro and combo at the upcoming IQ in my LGS this weekend, so I may tune the deck in that direction.
I'll bring back a tournament report Sunday once I recover from magic burnout haha
Geist wants a deck fully loaded with spot removal and/or evasion effects so it's not so surprising to get mixed results here. Following your prison sub-theme, have you run Meddling Mage? I've gotten a wide range of results from Meddling Mage. A few people here have called her one of the best cards in the deck (or at least in the board), and others have said she's too narrow so I'm always looking for more feedback on her.
I tried the mage, but there's only a small handful of decks it's really good against. Mainly decks that rely on a single card to win, like ad nauseum. The problem is, most decks diversify their threats and answers so well, that you'll play mage naming cranial plating, then they drop an arcbound ravager, or you'll name anger of the gods, then get hit with supreme verdict, damnation, or engineered explosives. The only way you can make good use of mage is with gitaxian probe. And even then it can still be removed or played around. I personally think counter spells are more reliable.
As for geist, he gets through a surprising amount thanks to gryff's boon and brave the elements. The issue is he can't race decks like burn or dredge. I may keep him in the side just for grixis and nahiri
I dig the green white list a lot. I ran a similar one a while back but I also had 4 collected company. That made recovery from boardwipes much more tolerable.
The more I play the GW list, the more I like it. It doesn't get absurd draws like Elves, but the consistency is fantastic. It doesn't get completely stonewalled when a single creature is removed, since there isn't a single creature the deck relies on (like how Elves leans hard on Ezuri). The only thing that worries me is playing decks with lots of spot removal backed up by sweepers. Sweepers alone are actually not bad at all to play around, since Warden of the First Tree and Student of Warfare give us mana sinks to apply pressure without over committing to the board and Thraben Inspector helps refill our hand. I just played against Living End and was able to pace threats evenly throughout the game without issue, which gives me hope when facing other sweeper-heavy decks. All in all, I have been very impressed with the pure card quality of the list, especially considering it tops out at 2 cmc. The 1 drops are pure value and the 2 drops, with the exception of Hamlet Captain, affect the board immediately. And despite Hamlet Captain not affecting the board immediately, he does generally threaten a huge swing on the following turn, especially if there's a Thalia's Lieutenant or Mayor of Avabruck backing him up.
As for running Collected Company, I feel like the deck would have to take a completely different form in order to justify slowing it down that much. At that point, I'd want to be running black for cards like Dark Confidant and Anafenza, the Foremost. My worry with going that route is that the lords aren't as immediately impactful and you lose the quick threat of a huge Champion of the Parish or flipped Kytheon, Hero of Akros. I'm just not sure the Humans tribe has the big bombs to really make it worth slowing the deck down. I have thought about a very light black splash for 2-3 Dark Confidant in the main and 4 Thoughtseize in the side, though. Doesn't slow the deck down, but provides card advantage and very cost effective disruption for getting rid of sweepers or big blockers. With the super low slung aggro build like mine, I think it's better to take a proactive approach to sweepers with cards like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Selfless Spirit.
I think an Abzan CoCo Humans deck would look something like this:
Changes:
- Adding 2 Cavern of Souls for obvious reasons.
- Swapping out Elspeth, Knight-Errant for Ranger of Eos in the sideboard. Not sure how this will compare, but Ranger provides some potential benefits. Being able to make sure he resolves with Cavern of Souls is a good upside, first of all. Second, with the pure card quality at the 1cmc spot, digging up something like two Warden of the First Tree in the late game is huge, since Warden gets very big very quickly. Even digging up a pair of Thraben Inspector is basically like drawing 4 cards and getting a 3/2 body for 4 mana. Seems good.
- Swapping out 2 Blessed Alliance and 1 Rest in Peace for 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender. Anger of the Gods and Pyroclasm protection. This may hurt when facing off against Bogles or Infect, but we'll see.
- Swapping out 2 Kor Firewalker for 2 Auriok Champion. Obvious card quality upgrade and synergizes great with the deck.
I've finally come around that monowhite just isn't competitive enough for modern. It's really really close though.
I agree with your assessment on mono white. The deck most certainly needs a color splash. There just isn't quite enough in mono white to make it worthwhile over other decks.
Hey guys, hope the "double post" is ok, but I wanted to report back with some test results. I tried the "aggro" Abzan Coco build that I posted above (but without the Lilianas) and it was total trash. Didn't win a single game. Humans just cannot seem to handle being on the back foot. Playing the slower version just felt really bad and it could never claw ahead. I went back to the old GW build and immediately starting winning again. At that point, I decided to try the slight black splash that I discussed above and came to this list:
This deck has been absolutely killer so far. Key thoughts:
- There were some crazy games with decks spamming 10+ tokens in a single turn, casting 4-for-1 Supreme Verdicts, 2-for-1 Electrolyze etc and the deck just kept finishing people off regardless. I continue to be impressed by the resilience of a 2 drop aggro deck.
- Opponents' spot removal is so stressed and sweepers have to be right on time, otherwise they're taking hits for huge chunks of damage each turn.
- Warden of the First Tree continues to over perform and wins games on its own. Against UW control, I was able to read that my opponent had a sweeper, so I kept Warden in my hand with Blossoming Defense backup. The sweeper came, so I played Warden on my next turn. My opponent was unable to get rid of him before he finished off the game as an 8/8 trample lifelink monster. A similar story happened against a BW tokens deck that quickly found out that tokens aren't good at blocking 8 trampling damage. Having a card that's good in the early game and stellar in the late game has really transformed the deck, imo.
- Being able to fit 4 Path to Exile maindeck continues to be a huge boon for the list, since it is able to consistently clear an attack path for maximum damage.
- Blossoming Defense also continues to shine. 2 feels like the perfect number.
- Not sure if the mana base is 100% correct yet. Only time will tell.
- Unfortunately, I've only gotten to play with Dark Confidant once so far, but he was a total all star in that game. The card draw made a huge difference. Honestly, a deck like this having card-draw-on-a-stick feels like cheating haha. I'd love to add a 4th one, but I cannot find a slot I want to cut for it. #FirstWorldMagicProblems ?
All in all, I am extremely impressed so far. I think tomorrow I'll start playing the deck in leagues to put it to the real test. In preliminary testing, it seems to completely steamroll everything in its path. Granted, I've only played against a handful of T1/T2 decks (Tron, Ad Nauseum, Burn, Affinity) so far, but even those were dispatched with relative ease. I look forward to seeing how it does against some more T1 and T2 decks.
Mayor is curious because he wants you to dump you hand and go wide to get maximum advantage from his lord effect but he also needs you to keep your hand stocked to keep him from flipping at inconvenient times. This has been problematic for a lot of the higher curve CoCo lists (including mine) but your ability to go wide with a low curve + Gather the Townsfolk combined with lots of card draw from Inspector, Bob, and Horizon Canopy might balance those needs better than most lists so far.
I wanted to love Hamlet Captain but he always felt a little bit too slow. Again, perhaps the potential width of your board makes the payoff worth the slowness. He's definitely the most "win more" card in the deck, though, and -1x Hamlet Captain seems like the right choice if you really want to squeeze in the fourth Bob. Anafenza, The Foremost might replace the other Captain.
I know you want to keep your black splash light but Abrupt Decay would be a nice upgrade over Sundering Growth in the side.
EDIT 2: I also think you could make a case for 2x Brave The Elements over Blossoming Defense. Your core beaters are all still grounded and white so they'd benefit from the evasion (Warden can gain his own Teample). The deck's got card advantage in spades, personally I would value the evasion even if the protection wouldn't cover Bob, Mayor, Warden.
Regarding your manabase, Razorverge Thicket would be a better choice over Sunpetal Grove.
Mayor is curious because he wants you to dump you hand and go wide to get maximum advantage from his lord effect but he also needs you to keep your hand stocked to keep him from flipping at inconvenient times. This has been problematic for a lot of the higher curve CoCo lists (including mine) but your ability to go wide with a low curve + Gather the Townsfolk combined with lots of card draw from Inspector, Bob, and Horizon Canopy might balance those needs better than most lists so far.
Both Mayor and Captain have been great. I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. The deck goes so wide so quickly, that all it needs is 1 or 2 swings with a lord in play and it's pretty much game over. It's also not as difficult as one would think to keep some gas in the tank for a post-sweeper rebuild (or Mayor flip prevention, which I'll address in a moment); as you mentioned, Bob, Canopy and Inspector all do fantastic work at that, and proper threat pacing goes a long way as well. It honestly doesn't require that many cards to put big pressure on the opponent. Then, when preparing for a sweeper, I usually try to keep something like a 1 drop and a lord in my hand. Warden of the First Tree ROCKS at this; it's my preferred post-sweeper card. Oh you wiped my board? Have fun with this guy. Then we have stuff like Kytheon, Hero of Akros that threatens to flip before sweepers are available, forcing the opponent to have spot removal and use it before they get to their sweeper. I know I keep gushing about it, but the card quality at 1 cmc just blows my mind in this deck haha. How many decks can play 17-18 1 drops that are either must-answer threats at multiple stages in the game or card advantage? But I digress...
I was very suspicious of Hamlet Captain at first, since he needs you to be able to untap and attack in order to be effective. However, with the way most games play out, it's rarely an issue. I think what's happening is that the opponent's spot removal is stretched so thin, trying to keep cards like Champion of the Parish and Kytheon, Hero of Akros from getting out of hand in the early game, that Hamlet Captain often squeaks through unnoticed. Also, he is almost always set up with 1 or 2 Thalia's Lieutenants or Mayor of Avabrucks on the following turn for maximum damage bursts. This also makes it to where, if the opponent kills him with spot removal, I've got the 2 better lords waiting in the wings anyway.
As for Mayor of Avabruck, he's been a total all star. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't think I've ever minded letting him flip and get me more card advantage. His anthem effect gets utilized the turn he enters the battlefield, and if my opponent wants to do nothing on their turn in response, that's fine. I'll take some tokens. Almost all of the spells I'm truly worried about are sorcery speed. I've even had games where I had multiple spells to play, but didn't, just to let him keep going off with tokens. But in general, the games finish so quickly that he never flips to begin with, which is also perfectly fine. Both sides of the card have been great. Essentially, if Mayor of Avabruck is staying alive long enough for the flipping to matter, I'm already winning the game.
I wanted to love Hamlet Captain but he always felt a little bit too slow. Again, perhaps the potential width of your board makes the payoff worth the slowness. He's definitely the most "win more" card in the deck, though, and -1x Hamlet Captain seems like the right choice if you really want to squeeze in the fourth Bob. Anafenza, The Foremost might replace the other Captain.
I agree here. In any shell that's slower than mine, I feel like Hamlet Captain would be awful and I wouldn't recommend it. It was the first card I cut in my CoCo build. In a super low slung, wide build, however, he seems to shine. With that said, you could be right about him being a win-more, so I'll do some testing with a 4th Dark Confidant in place of the 2nd Hamlet Captain and see how the deck feels. In general, however, anything that boosts the toughness of our creatures is very relevant, as it prevents opponents from trading up with us, which has always been a weakness of this type of deck. Anafenza, the Foremost is far too slow for my build to be a worthwhile addition. Why wait till turn 3 to play a 4/4 when I've usually got an army of multiple 4/4s or bigger by then? I do think Anafenza is a solid card in a more midrange build, but definitely not an aggro build. If I were to replace the 2nd Hamlet Captain, I think it'd be for a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She is really effective when dropped early and backed up by a fast clock.
I know you want to keep your black splash light but Abrupt Decay would be a nice upgrade over Sundering Growth in the side.
Good point here; most of the stuff I want to hit with Sundering Growth also gets hit by Abrupt Decay. The only potential downside is that the Populate clause is relevant in a list running a playset of Gather the Townsfolk. But this is definitely worth testing out, as Abrupt Decay could be useful in more matchups, which as we all know, is a big upside in this format.
EDIT 2: I also think you could make a case for 2x Brave The Elements over Blossoming Defense. Your core beaters are all still grounded and white so they'd benefit from the evasion (Warden can gain his own Teample). The deck's got card advantage in spades, personally I would value the evasion even if the protection wouldn't cover Bob, Mayor, Warden.
I'm really glad you brought this up, because this has been a big point of contention for me with the list. During testing, I've been specifically paying attention to when I draw Blossoming Defense and asking myself if I would prefer it to be a Brave the Elements. Surprisingly enough, the answer has usually been no, at least so far. There are certain key points in the game where it is very important to be able to play "protect the queen," and having a +2/+2 pump spell is a great combat trick to keep up your sleeve. A lategame scenario with a growing Warden of the First Tree is one of the main use-cases for it, and is one of the major reasons why I have been able to close out long games that most aggro builds would struggle with.
With that said, the cards are very likely interchangeable and I think that once I have a larger sample size of games, the scenarios in which I want one over the other will be more 50/50. So at that point, it's really just a stylistic thing and up to the deck builder to decide which they prefer. My main issue with Brave the Elements is that I'd get into feel-bad situations where I can't protect the creatures I necessarily want to protect (Bob, Warden, Mayor etc). There are also times where my board is something like 1 Thraben Inspector, 1 Hamlet Captain and 1 Warden of the First Tree. Brave is then SUPER awkward. To some, the ability to alpha strike with a wide board more than offsets that. So, in summary, Blossoming Defense is going to be the more consistently good card with little to no downside. Brave the Elements is either going to be REALLY good and win you the game immediately or REALLY bad and be useless. I'm a deck builder that prefers consistency, hence my choice. I can certainly see the merits in swapping out, though.
Regarding your manabase, Razorverge Thicket would be a better choice over Sunpetal Grove.
I have certainly thought about this as well. However, there are only 3 lands in the whole deck (2 Cavern of Souls and 1 Horizon Canopy) that don't play nice with Sunpetal Grove, so I think I like having an untapped mana 99% of the time as opposed to only having it early game. This will lead to some awkward hands where I have a Cavern and a Grove as my 2 lands, but I'll take that. Even though it's a 2 drop deck, it still likes having late game untapped mana for things like Warden of the First Tree and Student of Warfare, or even an untapped mana on turn 3-4 (turn 3 if I've been pathed) for double lords or something. Example: Just yesterday I dropped a post-sweeper Warden against UW control and needed to draw an untapped 6th mana to finish the game - my opponent had just cast Sphinx's Revelation for 6, bringing his life total to 8. If he were to be able to untap with those cards, I was pretty much sure to lose the game. I top decked Sunpetal Grove and he scooped. However, similar to the discussion about Brave vs Blossoming Defense, this is also something that will only become more clear with testing and likely up to the deckbuilder's stylistic choice.
Little upgrade to my 4C list, I just cut the Mountain for an Inspiring Vantage. The downside is the opponent's Paths give no land, the upside is I have smoother curves. The additional white source helps when the other lands I have provide no white (Vents, Ground and Forest), and it helps me fetch with less constraint.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Alright, I have another update to my previous post.
I did some further testing with the GW Aggro list and the Abzan Aggro list. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but the amount of pain added to the mana base just didn't feel good. The GW version ran smoother and faster more often. Both versions are pretty close power-wise, with the Abzan list getting the slight nudge, but the GW version felt smoother to play. The biggest problems with these builds is the Jund matchup. It feels awful. All in all, both versions have their merits and I'd recommend trying out either one.
However, while playing the Abzan deck, I got to thinking - if I'm going to take this much damage from my mana, why not reap greater rewards from it? Lets revisit the Coco build from earlier, but with a twist:
I'm an aggro/midrange player at heart, so I really wanted to try to make CoCo work after my first attempt failed miserably. The mana base still probably needs some work, but this has been an absolute blast to play so far. The Jund matchup is vastly improved, and honestly, the deck does not feel much, if any, slower than the aggro builds while feeling far more resilient. The combination of Mantis Rider/Thalia's Lieutenant/Mayor of Avabruck and Collected Company really helps the deck swing for similar amounts of T3/T4 damage as the aggro builds. The mana base doesn't feel any more painful than the Abzan aggro build. It still puts the pressure on quick, and Collected Company is absolute money in this deck, as I'll elaborate on in a moment. Dark Confidant's card advantage is even more noticeable here, where the overall card power level is higher as well (albeit more painful). I also like having 3 maindeck dredge "answers" (it slows them down at least) with Anafenza, the Foremost, which can potentially be played on turn 2. It's also worthy to mention the addition of Lightning Bolt as an extra clear-the-path and/or finish-the-game card. After playing Naya Company for the past year or so in paper, I must say that this CoCo deck feels more powerful, while having upsides like being able to run Cavern of Souls and not being weak to graveyard hate due to running Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.
Some fun notes with the deck:
- With Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck in the deck, it's not hard to keep Mantis Rider out of bolt range.
- Collected Company can easily be a combat trick if you're able to find one or two of the lords or if you already have 1 or more Thalia's Lieutenants or Champion of the Parish on board swinging. It can even be cast main phase to try to find a lethal Mantis Rider. The modularity of CoCo in this deck is really good.
- Using Noble Heirarch to cast a spell pre-combat allows Anafenza, the Foremost to put a counter on it; the creature only needs to be tapped, not attacking. Pretty good when trying to get maximum value!
- Maybe I should find space for a 3rd Cavern of Souls? Hmmm...
Kingcars, as you head down the 4+ color CoCo path I suggest you check out Headminerve's list from a page or two back. I haven't been playing as much recently but we both wound up at pretty similar spots, so I have reason to believe you might wind up around there, too, after a bit more tuning.
Kingcars, as you head down the 4+ color CoCo path I suggest you check out Headminerve's list from a page or two back. I haven't been playing as much recently but we both wound up at pretty similar spots, so I have reason to believe you might wind up around there, too, after a bit more tuning.
Thanks for the info, I just checked those out. It looks like you guys went in a different direction than me. I'm a *little* bit slower with more card advantage and interaction. A few thoughts, just from looking at the list (disclaimer: I could be totally wrong, so feel free to correct me):
- I feel like if you're already slowing the deck down enough to play Collected Company, you're going to need/want more interaction, more disruption and more card advantage. Also, you're going to want at least some creatures that don't just die to any burn spell or Anger of the Gods. If you're not looking for that type of gameplay, I imagine a list like my GW Aggro build would be better at just killing people without the fuss of 4 colors and having to wait for 3+ mana to bust through big blockers. If you want to go aggro, just go aggro; there's a lot of haste built in, why wait for 4 mana? Collected Company is a midrange card.
- On a similar note, I don't like having half of my 3 drops - the big reasons for playing CoCo - to sometimes be vanilla 2/3 bears or a 3/1 Flyer that's a nombo with an opponent-EOT CoCo. The hits need to be consistently impactful. The only time I want Collected Company to feel bad is if it simply bricks; if it hits 2 creatures, I want it to always be good. In my 5C list, all of the hits outside of Noble Heirarch are significant. 4/4s that slow down dredge and pump teammates on attacks, 3/3 flyers, 2/1 get-my-CoCo-back, 2/1 card-draw-on-a-stick, lords etc. To the contrary, casting CoCo at opponent's EOT and getting something like Lyev Skyknight and Lightning Mauler just seems awful. The equivalent to that in my 5C list would be hitting Eternal Witness and Dark Confidant, which is a super powerful hit. This is the problem my original Abzan CoCo list had - the hits off CoCo were not good enough to justify slowing the deck down that much.
- The other problem with weak, situational 3 drop creatures is that the threat of ramping into a turn 2 3-drop isn't as grand. Turn 1 Noble into Turn 2 Mage or Skyknight, with more than likely nothing worthwhile to bounce or detain? Yuck. The bodies are too small and the effects are too situational for my tastes in a maindeck configuration.
Honestly, I think that shell needs to look more like my GW build - low to the ground, super fast. Path to Exile does the same thing as Reflector Mage and Lyev Skyknight for a LOT less mana, always at instant speed, and much sooner in the game (and it permanently removes creatures). It's also useful for shutting down certain combos at instant speed. Gather the Townsfolk is much cheaper and faster than Collected Company when it comes to putting multiple creatures down. You're only slightly more vulnerable to sweepers, but having room for cards like Thraben Inspector helps rebuild in a similar way to CoCo. I'm not seeing much reason to slow that build down for Collected Company - screw CoCo, don't get fancy. Just kill 'em.
Indeed some of your statements are a bit off, so I'll answer you :
I feel like if you're already slowing the deck down enough to play Collected Company, you're going to need/want more interaction, more disruption and more card advantage
No, you don't want to do that. Melira Coco and Elves Coco are 2 shining proofs that show you don't need more interaction, but rather more hits with Coco.
Collected Company is a midrange card.
No, it's an aggro card. It's also a tempo card. It equals 2 relevant plays in one turn, so you get ahead on board, even when you're on the draw against other creature decks. The Human archetype as we see in this topic wants to put a critical mass of permanents on board, and Coco helps there as a top curver. Don't even compare its power level to Gather the Townsfolk, please.
To the contrary, casting CoCo at opponent's EOT and getting something like Lyev Skyknight and Lightning Mauler just seems awful
You don't know how to play Coco in this archetype then. You play the card 1st main phase almost all the time, period. I explained it twice in this topic, but I'll do it again so people can play it correctly in a 4C Coco list : Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant, BTE, overall pump effects and also Lyev Skyknight and its cousins must be on board precombat, so you know what you'll attack with, you can get rid of a blocker, and you don't expose yourself to a random Coco during the attack/block steps, because you could find nothing and lose creatures on a blind gamble.
Yes, you may want to play it eot against wrath effects and force counterspells.
On a side note, Mauler has been dismissed by myself and Shelldell, personally in favor for the incredible Burning-Tree Emissary in my case. Not sure about Shelldell but like he said, we're on the same track.
Turn 1 Noble into Turn 2 Mage or Skyknight, with more than likely nothing worthwhile to bounce or detain? Yuck.
Noble into Rider is good. Into Skyknight, well you have a flyer that attacks through Tarmo and that blocks Infect and Affi. I don't know on what basis you build your list, but today's Magic tells it's good to have flyers on T2. It's like if you said you eot Spell Queller for nothing, so well, the card ins't worth the maindeck of Spirits... Makes no sense once you look at the format.
Aside from Lyev Skyknight or Reflector Mage, how does the deck get around a big Tarmogoyf or similarly sized blocker?
Well, it doesn't. That's why you should play these dudes ! Anafenza the Foremost is actually worse against grounders because she's smaller than her opponents and can't attack through them. You're shooting an arrow in your own knee here. ^^
I'm not seeing much reason to slow that build down for Collected Company - screw CoCo, don't get fancy. Just kill 'em.
On reason is blitz humans is worse than other fast aggros, while 4C Coco Humans may be better than Zoo overall. The version I play is super pro-active, very simple to pilot, and goes bigger than the Wx versions. Compare it to the different versions of Zoo. Some play small, others play big. But in Humans, I think playing small is strictly weaker than playing big, while it might not be true for Zoo decks (we often summon the metagame call in order to choose the stronger version of Zoo).
Dark Confidant is a card we play in true midrange decks: Tokens, Jund, Abzan, D&T... but here, turning a Coco list into a midrange thing is a trap imho.
Anafenza is interesting but in the end, she's not worth the splash when compared to the blue options, just better suited for the format.
Still a few days ago, I beat Dredge while my opponent bragged out I couldn't win. I used Lyev Skyknight to stop him from blocking, and screwed all his math and hope in one play. I came back from Tron and PWs (especially Lili in Jund) and Nahiri in Jeskai) numerous times just thanks to Skyknight, where only Coco could've helped me otherwise. I was the first to dismiss it in the first place, so I feel legit when I say it's better than its cousins (Reflector, Fiend and Banisher), cause I've tried them hard, and still to day I wouldn't come back to them.
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http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/250386
I'm taking this to GP Dallas.
I'm fairly certain this is this is the 75 want to take but want opinions
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
I used to run 4x Xathrid Necromancer, maybe I'll go back to that. It just felt more like a contingency plan than a card that will help me win the game. Repel the Abominable is a good call too.
I was also looking at your Heroic Deck thread, and it got me back onto the idea I've had before that what this deck might really need is a splash of green for pump spells. Hardened Scales and Solidarity of Heroes immediately jump to mind. But then on the other hand why do I have black other than for Dark Confidant and Zealous Persecution really?
@Fencerkid
What are your experiences with Mikaeus, the Lunarch? Also have been thinking about him before.
Playing him late game and he gets pretty big just to attack and block with.
He's a bit slow though, though if you follow him up with with Thalia's lieutenant you can put an extra counter on all creatures for free.
—Dr. Doom
-My approach to building decks. Sometimes it works.
-I used to run Necromancer as well and if I were to go back to an aggro build I'd run him again. He stacks, works well with zealous, blood soaked and mutavault, acts like a Standard Bearer against kill spells, and lets you swing into larger creatures to push through damage.
-I also used to run a casual gw human aggro decks that used Hamlet Captain, Accorder Paladin and Wild Beastmaster to great but math taxing effect.
I'm curious...what is everyone's matchups like? I'm on monowhite, and currently I consistently beat jund, control, tron, and combo. Aggro is tougher, but most matchups I feel like are in my favor.
The only decks I really don't like to see are eldrazi, lantern control, affinity, elves, valakut, and coco decks. Dredge is really tough game 1 as well, but I've got a pretty sweet sideboard that seems to be working out against em.
I'll post a list after work if anyone is interested
Creatures 29
4 champion of the parish
4 kytheon, hero of akros
4 student of warfare
4 icatian javelineers
3 thraben inspector
4 thalia's lieutenant
3 banisher priest
3 spectral procession
4 honor of the pure
3 brave the elements
20 Plains
3 grafdigger's cage
2 celestial purge
2 declaration in stone
3 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 sundering growth
1 Dictate of heliod
2 blessed alliance
This list is pretty low on curve, running 19 one-drop humans. So your chances of going t1 champion of the parish into t2 two one-drop humans is good. Icatian javelineers and banisher priest have both been surprisingly good at removing key creatures. Especially against infect and affinity. Student of warfare is a great mid-late game threat and mana sink. Thraben inspector is the weakest card in the deck for sure, but the extra card draw is nice, especially when you need him to trade with another creature, and the two toughness is more relevant than you would think. Thalia's lieutenant is self explanatory. Honor of the pure and spectral procession are hands down two of the most important cards in the deck. That's pretty much how I beat removal heavy decks. Anthem effects and difficult creature spells. Brave the elements is an amazing card, and is the reason I decided to go monowhite. It auto-wins you so many games, and can even be used defensively against burn, zoo, and merfolk as a kind of one sided board wipe. Burn and zoo are also why I like going monowhite. A painfree manabase makes racing those two decks relatively easy since they already do so much damage to themselves.
In the board, grafdigger's cage hits dredge, coco decks, living end, grishoalbrand, and shuts off snapcasters and nahiri's ultimate. Celestial purge is a recent addition, mainly because I've seen so many Chandra's, Lilliana's, and Nahiri's online this past week or two. Seems like every control deck is running at least 1-2 red/black planeswalkers these days, and purge is a clean answer, in addition to hitting other problem cards like eidolon of the great revel, grim lavamancer, and izzet staticaster. Declaration in stone is quickly becoming my favorite removal spell, and I'm beginning to think it deserves a spot in the main. The card is always a 3-for-1 or a 4-for-1 against dredge, and occasionally a 2-for-1 against other creature decks. Actually, it happens more often than you would think against non-dredge decks. It wipes tokens out, which is important against lingering souls and timely reinforcements, and it's also important just to have a two mana catch-all answer since chalice of the void for one is the go to sideboard strategy for some of the eldrazi decks. Thalia, guardian of thraben is there for infect, burn, combo, valakut, delver, or any other spell driven deck. Sundering growth is also a good catchall that plays well with spectral procession and gets around chalice for 1. Anthem effects are so good against control and jund, that I decided to put a one of Dictate of heliod in the board. I've only cast it in game twice, but it won me both games immediately. Finally, Blessed alliance is against aggro and infect. Though the card has been pretty underwhelming so far. On two separate occasions when I had it against infect, the opponent purposely played around it by attacking with two creatures. And honestly, I beat control and jund pretty frequently without ever seeing any sideboard cards, so I'm considering dropping them all three for something that would help against valakut, aggro, or eldrazi. Though, admittedly, I feel at times that my losses to those particular decks have more to do with a lack of skill on my part than of the deck itself. But I've practicing a ton and am getting better. With the exception of the decks I listed and a couple of fringe decks, everything else is cake work.
Would appreciate any and all input my fellow humans have to offer
I did try ghostly prison in the board back when I still ran 19 lands, but sometimes I would have trouble hitting 3 mana on turn 3. I may try it again now that I'm up to 20 lands, but I don't like that burn can play around it
One special card I would like to mention is shining shoal. The first iteration of this deck ran a full playset in the main over path to exile alongside a full set of spectral procession. Even though spectral procession only costs three in my deck, the actual converted cost is 6. So exiling it meant a shoals for 6. Additionally, Shoals doesn't target the source of damage, and the effect last on the source of damage till end of turn.
This led to plays like;
Redirecting 2 infect damage back to the opponent, even though it was hexproof, which bought me an extra turn to win the game.
redirecting 6 damage from an anger of the gods, saving 3 creatures and burning the opponent for 6, even though I was tapped out.
Redirecting 6 damage from a single valakut, even though it was dealing damage from two separate triggers.
and finally, redirecting 3 damage from an eidolon of the great revel, and then casting two one drop creatures to burn my opponent for 3 while advancing my board.
I ultimately dropped the card due to inconsistencies. It sat in my hand dead sometimes since I run so many 1 mana spells, but I've noticed that some of you have a higher curve in your lists here. Shoals for 3-6 is often times a total blowout, or at the very least can put you way ahead in the race. I thought it might be worth considering
Oh, and if you do decide to play it, don't bring it in against value decks or hand disrupting decks like jund or eldrazi. 2-for-oneing yourself isn't worth it against them
The 4C version struggles against Burn G1, so big SB needed. The control decks that can go wide are tough too, it's impossible to beat Blood Moon + Keranos, or Elspeth + Resto Angel, or Ugin + Wurmcoil, Nahiri + Snap Cryptic or wrath. To sum up, the decks that can 2-for-1 too easily (Burn is one of them thanks to Searing B's).
The cumfortable MUs are Affinity, Dredge, Eldrazi, Tron (usually we beat them on time and can go through one win con), Jund, Infect, etc... the big decks actually.
Grace is way too reactive and narrow. I actually tried Repel and Thalia to beat Ad Naus, which is one close MU. All these cards were disappointing in comparison to Mana Leak or Negate. Grace is super narrow in comparison to counterspells and Thalia, and I ended up not having room for such narrow applications. If you don't run blue, I guess Thalia is good against combo decks, and Blessed Alliance better than Repel against Burn and common aggro decks.
If you're playing humans, I'd suggest Sigarda (I know she's not human, but she boosts your humans) and Sigarda's Priest (helps suppress non-human creatures.)
Other than that, I'm not sure what I'd give you, having never played humans before.
Mom and benevolent bodyguard were never banned, they just haven't been in a modern legal set and therefor cannot be played.
Also assuming you mean sigarda, heron's grace, a 5 drop do nothing is absolutely not where this deck wants to be. She is completely unplayable in modern. sigarda, host of herons is better, but still not good for this deck.
sigardian priest is just a way worse gideon's lawkeeper.
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Student of Warfare
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Soldier of the Pantheon
3 Accorder Paladin
3 Veteran Armorer
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gather the Townsfolk
3 Brave the Elements
3 Path to Exile
3 Honor of the Pure
Lands
20 Plains
1 Path to Exile
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Leonin Arbiter
2 Sundering Growth
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Blessed Alliance
It was a fun deck and definitely takes rounds from some of the top tier decks, but I felt like it was missing some overall power. After that, I wanted to try going slightly off the beaten path, so I cooked up a brew which I have called "Stabby Humans"
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Auriok Glaivemaster
2 Student of Warfare
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Bone Saw
4 Bonesplitter
1 Avacyn's Collar
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Steelshaper's Gift
4 Gather the Townsfolk
3 Brave the Elements
3 Path to Exile
3 Honor of the Pure
Lands
20 Plains
This deck is a lot of fun and pulls wins out of nowhere. Thraben Inspector's clue token plays really nicely with Puresteel Paladin and allows for some quick draws with lots of things being equipped. The downside is that it is open to Affinity hate cards, but the good thing is that it can still win without the equipment strategy. Also, I think this deck has some room to grow by utilizing cards like Auriok Steelshaper and Ardent Recruit.
After that, I wanted to go back to the pure aggro vibe, but with more power than the mono white version. I started looking at adding green and the results have been great so far:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Student of Warfare
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Hamlet Captain
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Path to Exile
2 Blossoming Defense
Lands
2 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
6 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Rest in Peace
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Qasali Pridemage
Now this is more like it. Very consistent, fast curve. It's been consistently overrunning opponents, even Affinity. A T1 Champion of the Parish is all but guaranteed to be a 3/3 on turn 2 and generally gets out of hand absurdly quick. A T1 or T2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros isn't difficult to flip on T3. On top of that, the value at the other 1 cmc slots is great in this deck. Warden of the First Tree is a great late game draw, but can also very quickly be a 3/3 or bigger in the early game. Student of Warfare is similar, but unfortunately needs to be activated at sorcery speed. The best part of these two cards is that they allow more flexibility when playing around sweepers by giving an alternative mana sink when you don't want to commit more to the board. Thraben Inspector doesn't need much explanation, but the card draw is always welcome. In the 2 cmc spot, Mayor of Avabruck and Hamlet Captain are great pickups. The weakness of the mono white version was drawing stuff like Honor of the Pure or Brave the Elements when it was much preferred to have a creature. With the green splash, we've got anthems attached to bodies, which is great for ETB triggers and providing even more bodies to apply the anthem effects to. In fact, there are only 6 cards in the main that don't put creatures on the battlefield. Going Hamlet Captain into Thalia's Lieutenant + swing is just brutal. It's also worthy to note another new addition, Blossoming Defense, which is a great way to push through damage against larger creatures or protect a 7/7 Champion of the Parish. The sideboard is still up for grabs.
So far, this GW version is my favorite. It has good matchups against almost all the top decks, with plenty of relevant sideboard options.
Anyways, I hope these lists help! I haven't gotten to look through this thread a lot yet, so I apologize if this stuff is old news.
I've finally come around that monowhite just isn't competitive enough for modern. It's really really close though. I decided to splash blue for some counter magic and ive also changed my board up dramatically. Thanks to cosmiccharlie's advice, ive tried out ghostly prison, and it is a fantastic card. Prison + thalia or two prisons stacked up are a knockout against a lot of decks. Spell pierce has also helped shore up painful matches a good bit. A card that has been surprisingly good for me as well is lyev skyknight. The ETB ability typically isn't that great, but the fact it's a 3/1 flyer makes it really strong against midrange. Also really good late game drop against control if you have an anthem effect going. 4/2 flyer is a fast clock!
You guys were right about angel's grace. It was just too easy for valakut to play around. Repel the abominable hasn't really helped much either though. I'm trying thalia and counterspells in that match up now and my win% seems to have gone up a little
At the moment I'm playing around with geist of st. Traft and gryff's boon in the main. Mixed results there so far. Sometimes amazing. Sometimes too slow to keep up. Depends on the opponent.
I expect a lot of aggro and combo at the upcoming IQ in my LGS this weekend, so I may tune the deck in that direction.
I'll bring back a tournament report Sunday once I recover from magic burnout haha
As for geist, he gets through a surprising amount thanks to gryff's boon and brave the elements. The issue is he can't race decks like burn or dredge. I may keep him in the side just for grixis and nahiri
The more I play the GW list, the more I like it. It doesn't get absurd draws like Elves, but the consistency is fantastic. It doesn't get completely stonewalled when a single creature is removed, since there isn't a single creature the deck relies on (like how Elves leans hard on Ezuri). The only thing that worries me is playing decks with lots of spot removal backed up by sweepers. Sweepers alone are actually not bad at all to play around, since Warden of the First Tree and Student of Warfare give us mana sinks to apply pressure without over committing to the board and Thraben Inspector helps refill our hand. I just played against Living End and was able to pace threats evenly throughout the game without issue, which gives me hope when facing other sweeper-heavy decks. All in all, I have been very impressed with the pure card quality of the list, especially considering it tops out at 2 cmc. The 1 drops are pure value and the 2 drops, with the exception of Hamlet Captain, affect the board immediately. And despite Hamlet Captain not affecting the board immediately, he does generally threaten a huge swing on the following turn, especially if there's a Thalia's Lieutenant or Mayor of Avabruck backing him up.
As for running Collected Company, I feel like the deck would have to take a completely different form in order to justify slowing it down that much. At that point, I'd want to be running black for cards like Dark Confidant and Anafenza, the Foremost. My worry with going that route is that the lords aren't as immediately impactful and you lose the quick threat of a huge Champion of the Parish or flipped Kytheon, Hero of Akros. I'm just not sure the Humans tribe has the big bombs to really make it worth slowing the deck down. I have thought about a very light black splash for 2-3 Dark Confidant in the main and 4 Thoughtseize in the side, though. Doesn't slow the deck down, but provides card advantage and very cost effective disruption for getting rid of sweepers or big blockers. With the super low slung aggro build like mine, I think it's better to take a proactive approach to sweepers with cards like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Selfless Spirit.
I think an Abzan CoCo Humans deck would look something like this:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
Creature Package 2 - Midrange
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Grim Flayer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Eternal Witness
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
4 Path to Exile
3 Collected Company
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
Lands
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Rest in Peace
2 Dismember
2 Anguished Unmaking
I may be trying that out soon, along with updating the GW list to this:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Student of Warfare
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Hamlet Captain
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Path to Exile
2 Blossoming Defense
Lands
2 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
5 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ranger of Eos
2 Auriok Champion
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Qasali Pridemage
Changes:
- Adding 2 Cavern of Souls for obvious reasons.
- Swapping out Elspeth, Knight-Errant for Ranger of Eos in the sideboard. Not sure how this will compare, but Ranger provides some potential benefits. Being able to make sure he resolves with Cavern of Souls is a good upside, first of all. Second, with the pure card quality at the 1cmc spot, digging up something like two Warden of the First Tree in the late game is huge, since Warden gets very big very quickly. Even digging up a pair of Thraben Inspector is basically like drawing 4 cards and getting a 3/2 body for 4 mana. Seems good.
- Swapping out 2 Blessed Alliance and 1 Rest in Peace for 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender. Anger of the Gods and Pyroclasm protection. This may hurt when facing off against Bogles or Infect, but we'll see.
- Swapping out 2 Kor Firewalker for 2 Auriok Champion. Obvious card quality upgrade and synergizes great with the deck.
I agree with your assessment on mono white. The deck most certainly needs a color splash. There just isn't quite enough in mono white to make it worthwhile over other decks.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Student of Warfare
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Hamlet Captain
3 Dark Confidant
Spells (10)
4 Path to Exile
4 Gather the Townsfolk
2 Blossoming Defense
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
3 Plains
2 Sunpetal Grove
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Auriok Champion
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sundering Growth
2 Kataki, War's Wage
This deck has been absolutely killer so far. Key thoughts:
- There were some crazy games with decks spamming 10+ tokens in a single turn, casting 4-for-1 Supreme Verdicts, 2-for-1 Electrolyze etc and the deck just kept finishing people off regardless. I continue to be impressed by the resilience of a 2 drop aggro deck.
- Opponents' spot removal is so stressed and sweepers have to be right on time, otherwise they're taking hits for huge chunks of damage each turn.
- Warden of the First Tree continues to over perform and wins games on its own. Against UW control, I was able to read that my opponent had a sweeper, so I kept Warden in my hand with Blossoming Defense backup. The sweeper came, so I played Warden on my next turn. My opponent was unable to get rid of him before he finished off the game as an 8/8 trample lifelink monster. A similar story happened against a BW tokens deck that quickly found out that tokens aren't good at blocking 8 trampling damage. Having a card that's good in the early game and stellar in the late game has really transformed the deck, imo.
- Being able to fit 4 Path to Exile maindeck continues to be a huge boon for the list, since it is able to consistently clear an attack path for maximum damage.
- Blossoming Defense also continues to shine. 2 feels like the perfect number.
- Not sure if the mana base is 100% correct yet. Only time will tell.
- Unfortunately, I've only gotten to play with Dark Confidant once so far, but he was a total all star in that game. The card draw made a huge difference. Honestly, a deck like this having card-draw-on-a-stick feels like cheating haha. I'd love to add a 4th one, but I cannot find a slot I want to cut for it. #FirstWorldMagicProblems ?
All in all, I am extremely impressed so far. I think tomorrow I'll start playing the deck in leagues to put it to the real test. In preliminary testing, it seems to completely steamroll everything in its path. Granted, I've only played against a handful of T1/T2 decks (Tron, Ad Nauseum, Burn, Affinity) so far, but even those were dispatched with relative ease. I look forward to seeing how it does against some more T1 and T2 decks.
Mayor is curious because he wants you to dump you hand and go wide to get maximum advantage from his lord effect but he also needs you to keep your hand stocked to keep him from flipping at inconvenient times. This has been problematic for a lot of the higher curve CoCo lists (including mine) but your ability to go wide with a low curve + Gather the Townsfolk combined with lots of card draw from Inspector, Bob, and Horizon Canopy might balance those needs better than most lists so far.
I wanted to love Hamlet Captain but he always felt a little bit too slow. Again, perhaps the potential width of your board makes the payoff worth the slowness. He's definitely the most "win more" card in the deck, though, and -1x Hamlet Captain seems like the right choice if you really want to squeeze in the fourth Bob. Anafenza, The Foremost might replace the other Captain.
I know you want to keep your black splash light but Abrupt Decay would be a nice upgrade over Sundering Growth in the side.
EDIT 2: I also think you could make a case for 2x Brave The Elements over Blossoming Defense. Your core beaters are all still grounded and white so they'd benefit from the evasion (Warden can gain his own Teample). The deck's got card advantage in spades, personally I would value the evasion even if the protection wouldn't cover Bob, Mayor, Warden.
Regarding your manabase, Razorverge Thicket would be a better choice over Sunpetal Grove.
Both Mayor and Captain have been great. I think you hit the nail on the head with your last statement. The deck goes so wide so quickly, that all it needs is 1 or 2 swings with a lord in play and it's pretty much game over. It's also not as difficult as one would think to keep some gas in the tank for a post-sweeper rebuild (or Mayor flip prevention, which I'll address in a moment); as you mentioned, Bob, Canopy and Inspector all do fantastic work at that, and proper threat pacing goes a long way as well. It honestly doesn't require that many cards to put big pressure on the opponent. Then, when preparing for a sweeper, I usually try to keep something like a 1 drop and a lord in my hand. Warden of the First Tree ROCKS at this; it's my preferred post-sweeper card. Oh you wiped my board? Have fun with this guy. Then we have stuff like Kytheon, Hero of Akros that threatens to flip before sweepers are available, forcing the opponent to have spot removal and use it before they get to their sweeper. I know I keep gushing about it, but the card quality at 1 cmc just blows my mind in this deck haha. How many decks can play 17-18 1 drops that are either must-answer threats at multiple stages in the game or card advantage? But I digress...
I was very suspicious of Hamlet Captain at first, since he needs you to be able to untap and attack in order to be effective. However, with the way most games play out, it's rarely an issue. I think what's happening is that the opponent's spot removal is stretched so thin, trying to keep cards like Champion of the Parish and Kytheon, Hero of Akros from getting out of hand in the early game, that Hamlet Captain often squeaks through unnoticed. Also, he is almost always set up with 1 or 2 Thalia's Lieutenants or Mayor of Avabrucks on the following turn for maximum damage bursts. This also makes it to where, if the opponent kills him with spot removal, I've got the 2 better lords waiting in the wings anyway.
As for Mayor of Avabruck, he's been a total all star. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't think I've ever minded letting him flip and get me more card advantage. His anthem effect gets utilized the turn he enters the battlefield, and if my opponent wants to do nothing on their turn in response, that's fine. I'll take some tokens. Almost all of the spells I'm truly worried about are sorcery speed. I've even had games where I had multiple spells to play, but didn't, just to let him keep going off with tokens. But in general, the games finish so quickly that he never flips to begin with, which is also perfectly fine. Both sides of the card have been great. Essentially, if Mayor of Avabruck is staying alive long enough for the flipping to matter, I'm already winning the game.
I agree here. In any shell that's slower than mine, I feel like Hamlet Captain would be awful and I wouldn't recommend it. It was the first card I cut in my CoCo build. In a super low slung, wide build, however, he seems to shine. With that said, you could be right about him being a win-more, so I'll do some testing with a 4th Dark Confidant in place of the 2nd Hamlet Captain and see how the deck feels. In general, however, anything that boosts the toughness of our creatures is very relevant, as it prevents opponents from trading up with us, which has always been a weakness of this type of deck. Anafenza, the Foremost is far too slow for my build to be a worthwhile addition. Why wait till turn 3 to play a 4/4 when I've usually got an army of multiple 4/4s or bigger by then? I do think Anafenza is a solid card in a more midrange build, but definitely not an aggro build. If I were to replace the 2nd Hamlet Captain, I think it'd be for a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. She is really effective when dropped early and backed up by a fast clock.
Good point here; most of the stuff I want to hit with Sundering Growth also gets hit by Abrupt Decay. The only potential downside is that the Populate clause is relevant in a list running a playset of Gather the Townsfolk. But this is definitely worth testing out, as Abrupt Decay could be useful in more matchups, which as we all know, is a big upside in this format.
I'm really glad you brought this up, because this has been a big point of contention for me with the list. During testing, I've been specifically paying attention to when I draw Blossoming Defense and asking myself if I would prefer it to be a Brave the Elements. Surprisingly enough, the answer has usually been no, at least so far. There are certain key points in the game where it is very important to be able to play "protect the queen," and having a +2/+2 pump spell is a great combat trick to keep up your sleeve. A lategame scenario with a growing Warden of the First Tree is one of the main use-cases for it, and is one of the major reasons why I have been able to close out long games that most aggro builds would struggle with.
With that said, the cards are very likely interchangeable and I think that once I have a larger sample size of games, the scenarios in which I want one over the other will be more 50/50. So at that point, it's really just a stylistic thing and up to the deck builder to decide which they prefer. My main issue with Brave the Elements is that I'd get into feel-bad situations where I can't protect the creatures I necessarily want to protect (Bob, Warden, Mayor etc). There are also times where my board is something like 1 Thraben Inspector, 1 Hamlet Captain and 1 Warden of the First Tree. Brave is then SUPER awkward. To some, the ability to alpha strike with a wide board more than offsets that. So, in summary, Blossoming Defense is going to be the more consistently good card with little to no downside. Brave the Elements is either going to be REALLY good and win you the game immediately or REALLY bad and be useless. I'm a deck builder that prefers consistency, hence my choice. I can certainly see the merits in swapping out, though.
I have certainly thought about this as well. However, there are only 3 lands in the whole deck (2 Cavern of Souls and 1 Horizon Canopy) that don't play nice with Sunpetal Grove, so I think I like having an untapped mana 99% of the time as opposed to only having it early game. This will lead to some awkward hands where I have a Cavern and a Grove as my 2 lands, but I'll take that. Even though it's a 2 drop deck, it still likes having late game untapped mana for things like Warden of the First Tree and Student of Warfare, or even an untapped mana on turn 3-4 (turn 3 if I've been pathed) for double lords or something. Example: Just yesterday I dropped a post-sweeper Warden against UW control and needed to draw an untapped 6th mana to finish the game - my opponent had just cast Sphinx's Revelation for 6, bringing his life total to 8. If he were to be able to untap with those cards, I was pretty much sure to lose the game. I top decked Sunpetal Grove and he scooped. However, similar to the discussion about Brave vs Blossoming Defense, this is also something that will only become more clear with testing and likely up to the deckbuilder's stylistic choice.
I did some further testing with the GW Aggro list and the Abzan Aggro list. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but the amount of pain added to the mana base just didn't feel good. The GW version ran smoother and faster more often. Both versions are pretty close power-wise, with the Abzan list getting the slight nudge, but the GW version felt smoother to play. The biggest problems with these builds is the Jund matchup. It feels awful. All in all, both versions have their merits and I'd recommend trying out either one.
However, while playing the Abzan deck, I got to thinking - if I'm going to take this much damage from my mana, why not reap greater rewards from it? Lets revisit the Coco build from earlier, but with a twist:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mantis Rider
1 Eternal Witness
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
Spells (12)
3 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
Lands (21)
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
3 Thoughtseize
3 Reflector Mage
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Auriok Champion
1 Lightning Helix
I'm an aggro/midrange player at heart, so I really wanted to try to make CoCo work after my first attempt failed miserably. The mana base still probably needs some work, but this has been an absolute blast to play so far. The Jund matchup is vastly improved, and honestly, the deck does not feel much, if any, slower than the aggro builds while feeling far more resilient. The combination of Mantis Rider/Thalia's Lieutenant/Mayor of Avabruck and Collected Company really helps the deck swing for similar amounts of T3/T4 damage as the aggro builds. The mana base doesn't feel any more painful than the Abzan aggro build. It still puts the pressure on quick, and Collected Company is absolute money in this deck, as I'll elaborate on in a moment. Dark Confidant's card advantage is even more noticeable here, where the overall card power level is higher as well (albeit more painful). I also like having 3 maindeck dredge "answers" (it slows them down at least) with Anafenza, the Foremost, which can potentially be played on turn 2. It's also worthy to mention the addition of Lightning Bolt as an extra clear-the-path and/or finish-the-game card. After playing Naya Company for the past year or so in paper, I must say that this CoCo deck feels more powerful, while having upsides like being able to run Cavern of Souls and not being weak to graveyard hate due to running Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.
Some fun notes with the deck:
- With Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck in the deck, it's not hard to keep Mantis Rider out of bolt range.
- Collected Company can easily be a combat trick if you're able to find one or two of the lords or if you already have 1 or more Thalia's Lieutenants or Champion of the Parish on board swinging. It can even be cast main phase to try to find a lethal Mantis Rider. The modularity of CoCo in this deck is really good.
- Using Noble Heirarch to cast a spell pre-combat allows Anafenza, the Foremost to put a counter on it; the creature only needs to be tapped, not attacking. Pretty good when trying to get maximum value!
- Maybe I should find space for a 3rd Cavern of Souls? Hmmm...
Thanks for the info, I just checked those out. It looks like you guys went in a different direction than me. I'm a *little* bit slower with more card advantage and interaction. A few thoughts, just from looking at the list (disclaimer: I could be totally wrong, so feel free to correct me):
- I feel like if you're already slowing the deck down enough to play Collected Company, you're going to need/want more interaction, more disruption and more card advantage. Also, you're going to want at least some creatures that don't just die to any burn spell or Anger of the Gods. If you're not looking for that type of gameplay, I imagine a list like my GW Aggro build would be better at just killing people without the fuss of 4 colors and having to wait for 3+ mana to bust through big blockers. If you want to go aggro, just go aggro; there's a lot of haste built in, why wait for 4 mana? Collected Company is a midrange card.
- On a similar note, I don't like having half of my 3 drops - the big reasons for playing CoCo - to sometimes be vanilla 2/3 bears or a 3/1 Flyer that's a nombo with an opponent-EOT CoCo. The hits need to be consistently impactful. The only time I want Collected Company to feel bad is if it simply bricks; if it hits 2 creatures, I want it to always be good. In my 5C list, all of the hits outside of Noble Heirarch are significant. 4/4s that slow down dredge and pump teammates on attacks, 3/3 flyers, 2/1 get-my-CoCo-back, 2/1 card-draw-on-a-stick, lords etc. To the contrary, casting CoCo at opponent's EOT and getting something like Lyev Skyknight and Lightning Mauler just seems awful. The equivalent to that in my 5C list would be hitting Eternal Witness and Dark Confidant, which is a super powerful hit. This is the problem my original Abzan CoCo list had - the hits off CoCo were not good enough to justify slowing the deck down that much.
- The other problem with weak, situational 3 drop creatures is that the threat of ramping into a turn 2 3-drop isn't as grand. Turn 1 Noble into Turn 2 Mage or Skyknight, with more than likely nothing worthwhile to bounce or detain? Yuck. The bodies are too small and the effects are too situational for my tastes in a maindeck configuration.
- Aside from Lyev Skyknight or Reflector Mage, how does the deck get around a big Tarmogoyf or similarly sized blocker?
Honestly, I think that shell needs to look more like my GW build - low to the ground, super fast. Path to Exile does the same thing as Reflector Mage and Lyev Skyknight for a LOT less mana, always at instant speed, and much sooner in the game (and it permanently removes creatures). It's also useful for shutting down certain combos at instant speed. Gather the Townsfolk is much cheaper and faster than Collected Company when it comes to putting multiple creatures down. You're only slightly more vulnerable to sweepers, but having room for cards like Thraben Inspector helps rebuild in a similar way to CoCo. I'm not seeing much reason to slow that build down for Collected Company - screw CoCo, don't get fancy. Just kill 'em.
No, you don't want to do that. Melira Coco and Elves Coco are 2 shining proofs that show you don't need more interaction, but rather more hits with Coco.
No, it's an aggro card. It's also a tempo card. It equals 2 relevant plays in one turn, so you get ahead on board, even when you're on the draw against other creature decks. The Human archetype as we see in this topic wants to put a critical mass of permanents on board, and Coco helps there as a top curver. Don't even compare its power level to Gather the Townsfolk, please.
You don't know how to play Coco in this archetype then. You play the card 1st main phase almost all the time, period. I explained it twice in this topic, but I'll do it again so people can play it correctly in a 4C Coco list :
Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant, BTE, overall pump effects and also Lyev Skyknight and its cousins must be on board precombat, so you know what you'll attack with, you can get rid of a blocker, and you don't expose yourself to a random Coco during the attack/block steps, because you could find nothing and lose creatures on a blind gamble.
Yes, you may want to play it eot against wrath effects and force counterspells.
On a side note, Mauler has been dismissed by myself and Shelldell, personally in favor for the incredible Burning-Tree Emissary in my case. Not sure about Shelldell but like he said, we're on the same track.
Noble into Rider is good. Into Skyknight, well you have a flyer that attacks through Tarmo and that blocks Infect and Affi. I don't know on what basis you build your list, but today's Magic tells it's good to have flyers on T2. It's like if you said you eot Spell Queller for nothing, so well, the card ins't worth the maindeck of Spirits... Makes no sense once you look at the format.
Well, it doesn't. That's why you should play these dudes ! Anafenza the Foremost is actually worse against grounders because she's smaller than her opponents and can't attack through them. You're shooting an arrow in your own knee here. ^^
On reason is blitz humans is worse than other fast aggros, while 4C Coco Humans may be better than Zoo overall. The version I play is super pro-active, very simple to pilot, and goes bigger than the Wx versions. Compare it to the different versions of Zoo. Some play small, others play big. But in Humans, I think playing small is strictly weaker than playing big, while it might not be true for Zoo decks (we often summon the metagame call in order to choose the stronger version of Zoo).
Dark Confidant is a card we play in true midrange decks: Tokens, Jund, Abzan, D&T... but here, turning a Coco list into a midrange thing is a trap imho.
Anafenza is interesting but in the end, she's not worth the splash when compared to the blue options, just better suited for the format.
Still a few days ago, I beat Dredge while my opponent bragged out I couldn't win. I used Lyev Skyknight to stop him from blocking, and screwed all his math and hope in one play. I came back from Tron and PWs (especially Lili in Jund) and Nahiri in Jeskai) numerous times just thanks to Skyknight, where only Coco could've helped me otherwise. I was the first to dismiss it in the first place, so I feel legit when I say it's better than its cousins (Reflector, Fiend and Banisher), cause I've tried them hard, and still to day I wouldn't come back to them.