Welcome to Modern and welcome to the thread. Thanks for sharing!
I've had similar experiences with Little Thalia against (GR) Tron a year ago. She got cut for more aggressive creatures but I might look at her again. Did you run into any nonbos with Little Thalia delaying CoCo? Can you elaborate any more on how big Thalia did?
Did you have any issues with your curve? It looks like it might be a little heavy with 21 lands and 13x three-drops. I can imagine getting great hits off CoCo and grinding well but also experiencing some slower / clunky hands without CoCo.
Thalia didn't end up causing me any issues with delaying Collected Company. I didn't happen to draw her against Eldrazi, she delayed Tron's ability to search and get to their combo far more than she delayed me, and Grixis removed her as soon as they could.
Turn 3 Older Thalia was mainly useful because my opponent had managed to get all three Urza lands in his opening hand. By keeping the power plant tapped, she bought me another turn by preventing a a turn 3 Karn or Wurmcoil as the other two only gave 5 mana, then she buys the non-fliers a turn of attacks by tapping down the Wurmcoil if they happened to have it.
Additionally, in a world where everything goes right, a turn 2 older Thalia seems like it could be crippling since it not only cuts their ability to cycle, but it also makes them more predictable, as she prevents them from playing a mana granting artifact and activating it in the same turn, when all their removal is prohibitively expensive without the Urza lands, or requires coloured mana.
I ran into some curve issues in game 3 against Grixis where I had to delay Collected Company due to a lack of mana, but Reflector Mage on his delves slowed him down enough for me to recover and win the race. I did miss a third land drop, but other than that game, they generally coincided with a noble hierarch sticking. to the board, and hard casting Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage was generally a good enough play that I never felt too bad about it. I was originally running 22 lands + 4 Hierarchs, but I decided that I'd test out the 2 renegade ralliers, and see if I could use them as the 3->4 drop, since 2 mana generators tend to be worth around 1 land.
However, since both times I drew them, they ended up dead, I'll probably cut them both and go back up to 22 lands + 4 noble hierarchs, which would also bring my 3 mana count down to 11, and the effective land count up to 24. I'd probably replace the empty slot with another young Thalia.
I really don't want to cut Mantis Rider due to how amazing it proved once the game turned into a race, or Reflector Mage due to how powerful of a tempo swing it is, so that would only leave Thalia and the 2 Sky Knights. With the skyship plunderers, it might be okay to cut Thalia and a Sky Knight to bring the count down to 9, and replace them with a fourth Skyship Plunderer, and possibly another turn 1 play.
Pottentially Experiment One or Servant of the Scale could work in that spot since they'll have built in +1/+1 counters that the Skyship Plunderers can copy in the event that I don't draw a Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant. Experiment One has the ability to grow quite a bit as things are played, and will probably be a 2/2 on turn 2, and Servant of the Scale will get to distribute his counters when he dies, which could potentially be relevant against a Pyroclasm, Yahenni's Expertise if that ends up being good enough to run, or if you just need something sacrificial to use as a blocker. Kytheon is kind of interesting as well.
You mentioned that T2 Thalia Heretic can be a back breaker against Tron and 3c midrange -- I think it'd be interesting to explore making that more common with 2x Thalia HC and 2x Avacyn's Pilgrim. Or to at least have this configuration available from the board. I'll look into this.
It looks a bit like an evolution of Craig Wescoe's old deck crossed with white weenie's focus on hitting a critical mass of one-drop 2/1s. Since it runs a playset of Mantis Rider it automatically has my attention!
It looks like it might have some explosive plays rivaling Naya Blitz but with a much better long game thanks to Bob and Mantis Rider. Kytheon also shines in this build and the mana base is less painful than expected for 4c thanks to Ziggurat. Overall think the list is interesting but I wish I could ask Wuby about a few things that stand out:
(1) One-drop choices. There's some noticeable tension between the "anti-spell" package of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Ancient Ziggurat + only 7 spells while also trying to run 4x Monastery Swiftspear. I've wrestled with correctly appraising Swiftspear in low-spell decks a lot. Maybe a hasty 1/2 that's sometimes a 2/3 is good enough for one mana. I don't know. Mardu Woe Reaper also seems meh. Thraben Inspector could provide additional card advantage, Blood-soaked Champion gives insurance against sweepers, Boros Elite can boost clock speed (although he's a bit win-more), and maaaybe Flying Men could give some extra evasion. Alternatively a low-curve 4+ color list seems like the best possible home for Metallic Mimic.
(2) Evasion. Mono-white has Brave the Elements, Naya Blitz goes a little wider and turn faster with BTE + Brawler + Bushwacker, 4c CoCo can focus on fliers. Here we're somewhere in the middle... a turn slower than Naya Blitz but a little help from Mantis Rider. Is that mix ok? Or is it an awkward middle ground? EDIT: In practice it seems awkward to me. Not quite fast or wide enough for the ground, not enough anthem effects to make the 2/1s threatening. A few lucky hands with 2/1s into Lieutenant work but everything else seems too slow.
(3) Could Dismember be traded for Push? Perhaps the deck just wants a full playset of Bolt with Mutagenic Growth to focus on explosive tempo?
(4) A singleton MB Meddling Mage seems to pop up frequently.
I think the 1 drops are pretty awful. Monastery Swiftspear, as you mentioned, is a nombo with the rest of the deck. Mardu Woe-Reaper and Soldier of the Pantheon are both simply subpar. With that said, the other creature choices are totally fine. Overall, I would personally rather run a pure aggro build or a Collected Company build.
I actually feel that going 5 colours to run Anafenza or other 3CMC humans might not be a bad idea.
I wasn't having too much trouble getting all four colours online with a mana base of:
3 Plains
3 Forests
1 Island
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Cavern of Souls
Despite only running 1 red land in the deck, the fact that my 1 red shock land was the same colour as both my fetch lands, that cavern of souls was a 5 colour land, and the fact that I was limiting my reliance on red to my 3CMC plays allowed me to cast my mantis riders whenever I needed them for the most part.
By simply adding a godless shrine, you could get to:
17/22 lands fetching or producing white
16/22 lands fetching or producing green
14/22 lands fetching or producing blue
13/22 lands fetching or producing red
13/22 lands fetching or producing black
Which isn't horribly inconsistent given that you'd need to draw her, and then also fail to have your black mana in three land drops, whereas the benefit of having her quite nice, and she's a great hit off collected company regardless of whether you have black mana. Additionally, given that I wasn't having issues casting mantis riders despite blue being harder to come by than green in this deck (I couldn't rely on Cavern of Souls to cast collected company or Path to Exile, so I skewed towards green/white), Anafenza should actually be easier to cast than the mantis riders were with this mana base.
My main issue with it though is that as a 3CMC card she's in a very competitive spot, fighting with the sheer speed and evasion of a 3/3 vigilance, haste, flying creature in Mantis Rider, the tempo swings of Reflector Mage, and the grindiness of Eternal Witness, and the sweeper resistance of Xathrid Necromancer.
I might sound crazy, but even disregarding mana issues, I'm not sure that a 3 mana 4/4 human with built in graveyard hate. that also buffs all your creatures when she attacks is good enough for a human deck. Sure, she's bolt resistant, but with so many other boltable cards in the deck, it's not as though your opponents are going to have trouble finding other good targets for them.
Currently testing the Metallic Mimic in aggro list. As a 4 of, it became a much slower lord, useful for long games, but pretty useless if you want to archive turn 3/4 kills. Maybe as a 2 or 3 of.
Other than that, it dosen't combo well with CoCo, so I would only recommend it if you don't play green at all.
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Sorry for the bad english, not my native language!!!
My main issue with it though is that as a 3CMC card she's in a very competitive spot, fighting with the sheer speed and evasion of a 3/3 vigilance, haste, flying creature in Mantis Rider, the tempo swings of Reflector Mage, and the grindiness of Eternal Witness, and the sweeper resistance of Xathrid Necromancer.
I might sound crazy, but even disregarding mana issues, I'm not sure that a 3 mana 4/4 human with built in graveyard hate. that also buffs all your creatures when she attacks is good enough for a human deck. Sure, she's bolt resistant, but with so many other boltable cards in the deck, it's not as though your opponents are going to have trouble finding other good targets for them.
If you look back at some of my posts over the last few pages, you'll see that I started off with a 5 color Collected Company deck for Anafenza, the Foremost, which eventually split off into 2 different builds - one in Abzan colors to maximize Xathrid Necromancer and Anafenza, the Foremost and a 4 color build to maximize Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. I think running 5 colors makes the mana too awful and the 3 drop slot is too clogged. They're best as two different builds depending on which cards you prefer, imo.
Out of curiousity, how much mana is it normal for the Abzan deck tend to end up reaching in each matchup? I'm curious on whether or not an Angel of Glory's Rise might be worthwhile in that list as a 1 of. Resurrecting your entire grave seems like a powerful effect in a grindy deck, especially with Xathrid Necromancers making the field even more durable, though obviously it's not something that you want to draw early.
People have been telling me that Bant Eldrazi is one of, if not the best decks of the current format. What are peoples' thoughts in siding in Riders of Gavony for them and the occasional Merfolk/Elves/Spirits/Allies player?
Actually if you're looking to beat eldrazi, intrepid hero is probably the best option. It was the go-to card for creature decks during eldrazi winter and it's also a human.
Been a while since I posted an update - I actually spent some time on MTGO trying out different archetypes, including some brews I had been mulling in my head for a while. Although they were good and fun, it just wasn't the same as the Humans lists I had been working on. I'm a big sucker for creatures with all sorts of abilities and triggers, so here I am. The first list I went back to was the 4C Collected Company list. It looked something like this:
It was a great list, but I felt like it was just a smidge off the mark. Mana was tough at times, some parts of the curve felt awkward etc. I thought about some previous things I had discussed - maybe Lightning Bolt is too tough on the mana. Maybe Duskwatch Recruiter can find a role in here somewhere. Lyev Skyknight, while being a decent 3 drop, just wasn't performing as well as I'd like. I also went back and watched some of the Frank Lepore and Craig Wescoe videos, thinking about the draws and how they compared to my list. After some thought, I came to a list with a maindeck very close to the one played by Lepore and Wescoe, because I realized there were some small, but key differences that made that list tick while mine stumbled. First, my current list:
This doesn't seem like a big change on the surface, but the deck plays much better with these changes. I think the biggest reason for this is the addition of 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim, which took the Lightning Bolt slot. Here's why the changes are for the better:
- This deck doesn't really care about "bolting the Bird." It wants to "Reflector Mage the bird" (on T2) or "set up for a board so overwhelming that the bird can't do anything." Having 2 more PROACTIVE 1 drops is very important because the deck works infinitely better when it can either cast a 3-drop or a pair of creatures on T2. In a humans deck, you want to get out on the front foot, get ahead on board, then lord them to death while using Reflector Mage or Path to Exile to clear any blockers. I further confirmed this when I looked back at the videos I made from my twitch stream a few weeks ago - there were times where Bolt was in my opening hand, but a Pilgrim would have been so much better. It was very rare that the case was the other way around.
- The "conventional" wisdom I had gained from playing decks like Naya Company was that you don't want to run too many mana dorks since they are terrible Collected Company hits. While this is still true, it isn't nearly as big of a cost in a Humans deck. In this deck, any creature can be either made huge thanks to lords or it can grow Lieutenant and Champion. This gives us the unique luxury of being able to run a couple of extra dorks without it significantly impacting lategame draws.
- The mana base is much smoother without having to fetch red for Bolt. I'm able to fetch basics a lot more than I used to.
- The maindeck difference between my deck and the Lepore deck is Duskwatch Recruiter instead of Meddling Mage. I think having a 2 toughness 2 drop is a big deal for us, but I don't like Mage because it's often very awkward - you either need perfect information, play against decks with only 1 card to worry about or be REALLY GOOD at guessing. Without any of those things, it's really just a vanilla 2/2 for 2. Duskwatch Recruiter, on the other hand, is consistently fine in the early game and really good in the mid and late game. He eeks out a little extra card advantage - this doesn't seem like much, but in a deck where each creature means so much, it's nothing to sneeze at. Whether you're looking for one of the toolbox creatures out of the sideboard, a Reflector Mage to bounce a pesky creature or a Mantis Rider to push through damage in a board stall, it's great to have extra ways to find them in a pinch. And since the new list has upped the creature count to 31, it's trivial to hit a creature off of his ability each time. It's also super easy to cast, being Gx as opposed to UW. With all of that said, this is a slot similar to the Lyev Skyknight slot where we don't quite have the right card yet, but this will have to do for now. I've been happy with the choice so far.
- Instead of getting fancy with my 3 drop choices, I came to the conclusion that it was just best to jam four copies of each of the two best 3-drops by a wide margin. This even cleared up a sideboard slot as an added bonus.
- Just want to quickly mention Disdainful Stroke as a card that hits both creatures and spells that we care a lot about. I think a 3/2 split of Negate and Stroke in the board is very good.
As a brewer, I admit it feels a little "bad" to essentially circle around to a deck that was already built, but I really can't argue with the choices. My testing and experience with the deck has led to very similar conclusions as far as the maindeck configuration is concerned. I plan to make similar changes to the Abzan Company list, taking out Dromoka's Command for Avacyn's Pilgrim and taking out the 4th Mayor of Avabruck for a Duskwatch Recruiter. More consistent turn 2 Anafenzas sounds like fun to me .
So, I know that last week, the people at my LGS (Which is quite small) were playing:
Abzan Midrange
Selesnya Tron
Gruul Tron
Grixis Delver
Bant Eldrazi
Green Elves
Ink Humans
Unknown
This week, would it be a reasonable call to cut the Skyship Plunderers for main deck meddling mages (Calling Ugin/Karn against Tron, Ezuri against Elves, Engineered Explosives against Eldrazi, or Fatal Push against Abzan), or some other human (More Mayors of Avabruck?) since there's no infect or affinity that I'll need early aerial blockers against?
Additionally, what do I do against elves? I didn't play them last week, but from what someone who did play against them said, they went wide very quickly and created tokens to block them forever. Relying on just Mantis Riders and possibly the skyship plunderers for evasion seems risky.
kingcars,
The list looks good but I have a couple of reservations:
#With only 8x instants in the deck Jace, Vryn's Prodigy seems rather weak here, why not use Eternal Witness instead ?
#6x Mana dorks seem too much, I would cut the 2x Avacyn's Pilgrim for the 4th Mayor and the 3rd Duskwatch, or maybe 2x Metallic Mimic.
Neirae,
#Meddling Mage is useful against combo decks, I wouldn't use it against any of the decks you've mentioned since they are not dependent of a single card to win.
#"Elves" is a bad match-up since you also play creatures and are much slower without sweepers to keep them in check, some copies of Repel the Abominable can be of use and also trying to attack them aggressively while trying to remove their key creatures (Elvish Archdruid, Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Heritage Druid) to slow them down.
I've been playing with the full 8 mana creatures in my list for a while, has been testing really well.
We are uniquely suited to playing a lot of dorks: due to Lords and champions a pilgrim will often commit 3-4 power to the board, as opposed to 1 in another deck. Our Lords are also much more powerful cards in games where we have an explosive start, and casting a collected company on turn three when ahead on board is frequently just going to end the game
Additionally, 8 mana creatures helps facilitate late game cards like duskwatch or (in my build) tireless tracker
kingcars,
The list looks good but I have a couple of reservations:
#With only 8x instants in the deck Jace, Vryn's Prodigy seems rather weak here, why not use Eternal Witness instead ?
#6x Mana dorks seem too much, I would cut the 2x Avacyn's Pilgrim for the 4th Mayor and the 3rd Duskwatch, or maybe 2x Metallic Mimic.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy vs Eternal Witness is an interesting debate. I prefer Jace because he's lower on the curve and helps dig through the deck. With 8 instants and only 2 Jaces, it's very rare to not have something to flash back; I would never run more than 2 though. His floor is a looter that slows down an opposing creature when he flips. His ceiling is a looter that gets us multiple cards deeper in the deck, then flips and brings back the best card in the deck. The floor for E Wit is a 2/1 for 3 and the ceiling is a 2/1 that also brings back the best card in the deck. My biggest issue with E Wit is that it's usually awkward in an opening hand, because you can't really get value out of it until something meaningful is in the graveyard. You really just want to hit it off Company. Jace is a welcome sight in just about any opening hand because he helps you dig through your deck, get to your good stuff, then recur a Path or Company. In other words, Jace creates his own value while E Wit requires other things to happen before it's meaningful. They both serve similar functions and are both very playable, but Jace is my preference and has been a consistently great performer.
As for Avacyn's Pilgrim, I went into a good bit of detail about that in my previous post if you want the whole story. But in short, I really like having more consistently fast opening hands. Being able to either cast 2 creatures on turn 2 or one of the 3 drops is really where the deck wants to be. And unlike many other Collected Company decks, running extra mana dorks in a Humans deck isn't as big of a cost since they grow other creatures in the deck and can also become large themselves thanks to the lords. They also just make the lords better overall, both by being extra bodies to pump and being able to put out more creatures earlier.
Non-Creature Spells (8):
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Lands (21):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Breeding Pool
3x Plains
3x Forest
1x Island
Side Deck:
2x Fragmentise
2x Riders of Gavony
2x Meddling Mage
2x Celestial Purge
2x Lantern Scout
2x Mayor of Avabruck
1x Spellskite
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Dromoka's Command
2-0 against Bant Eldrazi.
I won the dice roll and went first game 1. We both had amazing openings.
Turn 2 Thought Knot Seer was scary, but after turn 1 champion of the parish, having to choose between collected company, reflector mage, and Thalia's lieutenant was not a nice decision. He made me discard reflector mage, Thalia's lieutenant buffed Champion of the parish, I allowed him to attack, a few times, but collected company into double Thalia's lieutenants followed by a champion of the parish into another reflector mage and skyship plunderer created a wall wide enough that even drowners of hope weren't enough to get through, and spread out enough that even engineered explosives wouldn't cripple it. Eldrazi displacer was extremely awkward for him.
Game 2 was much less of a crushing victory. I didn't draw Riders of Gavony or Collected Company. However, I didn't lose right away either. Buffed Skyship Plunderer was scary enough to draw removal, and Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant grew out of control. Three drowners of hope made closing it out without dying myself a bit tricky, but I got there.
0-2 against Through the Breach Combo
My opponent got his combo on turn 3 in both games. I had never seen anything like it, so I didn't realise that I needed to hold up mana for Path to Exile on the Primordial.
Game 2 I drew my meddling mage, but named the titan instead of through the breach. This was just classic inexperience (I only started playing modern last week). I do feel that I might be better sideboarding repel the abominable or more lantern scouts against this matchup though. Even with that horrible mistake, I still managed to get him down to 7 life. Drawing into either lantern scout or not throwing due to misunderstanding Through the Breach would have won me it.
1-0 against Soul Sisters
I should have been playing against burn, but she dropped. After 15 minutes, one of the other players talked to the judge about his missing opponent, and was told that his opponent dropped as well, so we just played each other for fun while we waited for the placings.
Turn 1: Soul Warden
Turn 1: Pass
Turn 2: Pass
Turn 2: Champion of the Parish, Noble Hierarch
Turn 3: Spectral Procession
Turn 3: Mantis Rider, attack, triple blocked by spirit tokens for mutual destruction
Turn 4: Serra Ascendant, Path to Exile Champion of the Parish
Turn 4: Collected Company: Mantis Rider and Eternal Witness (The dream!), return collected company to hand
Turn 5: Path to Exile Mantis Rider
Turn 5: Collected Company: Double Thalia's Lieutenants, Collected Company: Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant
To be brief, he didn't draw any of his ways to turn lifegain into something that effects the board state other than eventually activating his Serra Ascendant. He lost the board hard, made the mistake of attacking with his Serra Ascendant leaving him completely open to taking 20 damage on the next turn, bringing her crashing down to earth again, and even if he had saved her to block, I had reflector mage in hand.
After we finished that game, due to starting late to give our opponents plenty of time to show up, placings were made, we got our prizes, and the night ended.
I no longer fear the Eldrazi enough that I feel the need to side deck Riders of Gavony.
I played horribly against the combo deck simply due to inexperience with the archetype, but the first step might be to sideboard some Repel the Abominables, or go back to side decking Mana Leak.
Unsurprisingly, strong creature presence beats Soul Sisters if they don't get an early pridemate while I have no Path to Exile or Reflector Mage.
I can't say either way whether or not Avacyn's Pilgrim was helpful. I never actually drew into it or pulled it with Collected Company.
The CoCo version of the deck functions fairly reliably on as little as 21 lands and 4 dorks, depending upon your exact curve and color requirements. You could probably get away with shaving a land (23->22) for a Pilgrim, maybe even two lands for two Pilgrims if you're ok upping your mull % slightly.
Adding more Knights seems like a good idea as well as Gavony Township and Ghost Quarter as targets.
A copy or two of big Thalia seems like a decent option as well.
I've had similar experiences with Little Thalia against (GR) Tron a year ago. She got cut for more aggressive creatures but I might look at her again. Did you run into any nonbos with Little Thalia delaying CoCo? Can you elaborate any more on how big Thalia did?
Did you have any issues with your curve? It looks like it might be a little heavy with 21 lands and 13x three-drops. I can imagine getting great hits off CoCo and grinding well but also experiencing some slower / clunky hands without CoCo.
Thalia didn't end up causing me any issues with delaying Collected Company. I didn't happen to draw her against Eldrazi, she delayed Tron's ability to search and get to their combo far more than she delayed me, and Grixis removed her as soon as they could.
Turn 3 Older Thalia was mainly useful because my opponent had managed to get all three Urza lands in his opening hand. By keeping the power plant tapped, she bought me another turn by preventing a a turn 3 Karn or Wurmcoil as the other two only gave 5 mana, then she buys the non-fliers a turn of attacks by tapping down the Wurmcoil if they happened to have it.
Additionally, in a world where everything goes right, a turn 2 older Thalia seems like it could be crippling since it not only cuts their ability to cycle, but it also makes them more predictable, as she prevents them from playing a mana granting artifact and activating it in the same turn, when all their removal is prohibitively expensive without the Urza lands, or requires coloured mana.
I ran into some curve issues in game 3 against Grixis where I had to delay Collected Company due to a lack of mana, but Reflector Mage on his delves slowed him down enough for me to recover and win the race. I did miss a third land drop, but other than that game, they generally coincided with a noble hierarch sticking. to the board, and hard casting Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage was generally a good enough play that I never felt too bad about it. I was originally running 22 lands + 4 Hierarchs, but I decided that I'd test out the 2 renegade ralliers, and see if I could use them as the 3->4 drop, since 2 mana generators tend to be worth around 1 land.
However, since both times I drew them, they ended up dead, I'll probably cut them both and go back up to 22 lands + 4 noble hierarchs, which would also bring my 3 mana count down to 11, and the effective land count up to 24. I'd probably replace the empty slot with another young Thalia.
I really don't want to cut Mantis Rider due to how amazing it proved once the game turned into a race, or Reflector Mage due to how powerful of a tempo swing it is, so that would only leave Thalia and the 2 Sky Knights. With the skyship plunderers, it might be okay to cut Thalia and a Sky Knight to bring the count down to 9, and replace them with a fourth Skyship Plunderer, and possibly another turn 1 play.
Pottentially Experiment One or Servant of the Scale could work in that spot since they'll have built in +1/+1 counters that the Skyship Plunderers can copy in the event that I don't draw a Champion of the Parish or Thalia's Lieutenant. Experiment One has the ability to grow quite a bit as things are played, and will probably be a 2/2 on turn 2, and Servant of the Scale will get to distribute his counters when he dies, which could potentially be relevant against a Pyroclasm, Yahenni's Expertise if that ends up being good enough to run, or if you just need something sacrificial to use as a blocker. Kytheon is kind of interesting as well.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-wubr-32904
It looks like it might have some explosive plays rivaling Naya Blitz but with a much better long game thanks to Bob and Mantis Rider. Kytheon also shines in this build and the mana base is less painful than expected for 4c thanks to Ziggurat. Overall think the list is interesting but I wish I could ask Wuby about a few things that stand out:
(1) One-drop choices. There's some noticeable tension between the "anti-spell" package of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Ancient Ziggurat + only 7 spells while also trying to run 4x Monastery Swiftspear. I've wrestled with correctly appraising Swiftspear in low-spell decks a lot. Maybe a hasty 1/2 that's sometimes a 2/3 is good enough for one mana. I don't know. Mardu Woe Reaper also seems meh. Thraben Inspector could provide additional card advantage, Blood-soaked Champion gives insurance against sweepers, Boros Elite can boost clock speed (although he's a bit win-more), and maaaybe Flying Men could give some extra evasion. Alternatively a low-curve 4+ color list seems like the best possible home for Metallic Mimic.
(2) Evasion. Mono-white has Brave the Elements, Naya Blitz goes a little wider and turn faster with BTE + Brawler + Bushwacker, 4c CoCo can focus on fliers. Here we're somewhere in the middle... a turn slower than Naya Blitz but a little help from Mantis Rider. Is that mix ok? Or is it an awkward middle ground? EDIT: In practice it seems awkward to me. Not quite fast or wide enough for the ground, not enough anthem effects to make the 2/1s threatening. A few lucky hands with 2/1s into Lieutenant work but everything else seems too slow.
(3) Could Dismember be traded for Push? Perhaps the deck just wants a full playset of Bolt with Mutagenic Growth to focus on explosive tempo?
(4) A singleton MB Meddling Mage seems to pop up frequently.
What do you guys think?
I wasn't having too much trouble getting all four colours online with a mana base of:
3 Plains
3 Forests
1 Island
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Cavern of Souls
Despite only running 1 red land in the deck, the fact that my 1 red shock land was the same colour as both my fetch lands, that cavern of souls was a 5 colour land, and the fact that I was limiting my reliance on red to my 3CMC plays allowed me to cast my mantis riders whenever I needed them for the most part.
By simply adding a godless shrine, you could get to:
17/22 lands fetching or producing white
16/22 lands fetching or producing green
14/22 lands fetching or producing blue
13/22 lands fetching or producing red
13/22 lands fetching or producing black
Which isn't horribly inconsistent given that you'd need to draw her, and then also fail to have your black mana in three land drops, whereas the benefit of having her quite nice, and she's a great hit off collected company regardless of whether you have black mana. Additionally, given that I wasn't having issues casting mantis riders despite blue being harder to come by than green in this deck (I couldn't rely on Cavern of Souls to cast collected company or Path to Exile, so I skewed towards green/white), Anafenza should actually be easier to cast than the mantis riders were with this mana base.
My main issue with it though is that as a 3CMC card she's in a very competitive spot, fighting with the sheer speed and evasion of a 3/3 vigilance, haste, flying creature in Mantis Rider, the tempo swings of Reflector Mage, and the grindiness of Eternal Witness, and the sweeper resistance of Xathrid Necromancer.
I might sound crazy, but even disregarding mana issues, I'm not sure that a 3 mana 4/4 human with built in graveyard hate. that also buffs all your creatures when she attacks is good enough for a human deck. Sure, she's bolt resistant, but with so many other boltable cards in the deck, it's not as though your opponents are going to have trouble finding other good targets for them.
These cards provide a way more stable manabase and fetch shock does even hurt more (except if you draw into City / Confluence only).
My current list:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
2 Mana Confluence
2 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Gemstone Mine
2 Reflecting Pool
1 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Plains
//cmc1
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
//cmc3
4 Mantis Rider
3 Reflector Mage
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
//cmc4
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Path to Exile
1 Falkenrath Aristocrat
1 Dispel
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Auriok Champion
Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Huntmaster of the Fells are flex slots. I am looking for some more cardselection or carddraw but its not easy:/ Jace, Vryn Prodegy is an option but playing only 4 instants he seems meh. Collected Company? -> I rate the playset Thalia, Guardian of Thraben higher, she is so crucial in many MU's. Grim Flayer also can't be supported in this list... any suggestions?
Thats the SB is what i've come up with, playing 5c there are to many options to choose from (i need help:)).
A 1x-of Lantern Scout might also be decent for a big life swing.
Your curve is also not particulary high so playing both Noble Hierarch and Aether Vial seems too much.
You can probably take out the A.Vials for more creatures (the 4th Mayor, R.Mage) or interaction (Abrupt Decay/Fatal Push/Path to Exile/Lightning Helix).
As for the manabase, I would max out on Mana Confluence and add the 3rd Ancient Ziggurat before adding Tendo Ice Bridge and Gemstone Mine.
Other than that, it dosen't combo well with CoCo, so I would only recommend it if you don't play green at all.
If you look back at some of my posts over the last few pages, you'll see that I started off with a 5 color Collected Company deck for Anafenza, the Foremost, which eventually split off into 2 different builds - one in Abzan colors to maximize Xathrid Necromancer and Anafenza, the Foremost and a 4 color build to maximize Mantis Rider and Reflector Mage. I think running 5 colors makes the mana too awful and the 3 drop slot is too clogged. They're best as two different builds depending on which cards you prefer, imo.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mantis Rider
3 Reflector Mage
2 Lyev Skyknight
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Spells (10)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Negate
1 Reflector Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Auriok Champion
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 War Priest of Thune
It was a great list, but I felt like it was just a smidge off the mark. Mana was tough at times, some parts of the curve felt awkward etc. I thought about some previous things I had discussed - maybe Lightning Bolt is too tough on the mana. Maybe Duskwatch Recruiter can find a role in here somewhere. Lyev Skyknight, while being a decent 3 drop, just wasn't performing as well as I'd like. I also went back and watched some of the Frank Lepore and Craig Wescoe videos, thinking about the draws and how they compared to my list. After some thought, I came to a list with a maindeck very close to the one played by Lepore and Wescoe, because I realized there were some small, but key differences that made that list tick while mine stumbled. First, my current list:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
4 Mantis Rider
4 Reflector Mage
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Spells (10)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Negate
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Rest in Peace
3 Arashin Cleric
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 War Priest of Thune
The mainboard changes:
- 2 Lyev Skyknight
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Mayor of Avabruck
- 1 Misty Rainforest
+ 1 Reflector Mage
+ 2 Duskwatch Recruiter
+ 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
+ 1 Island
This doesn't seem like a big change on the surface, but the deck plays much better with these changes. I think the biggest reason for this is the addition of 2 Avacyn's Pilgrim, which took the Lightning Bolt slot. Here's why the changes are for the better:
- This deck doesn't really care about "bolting the Bird." It wants to "Reflector Mage the bird" (on T2) or "set up for a board so overwhelming that the bird can't do anything." Having 2 more PROACTIVE 1 drops is very important because the deck works infinitely better when it can either cast a 3-drop or a pair of creatures on T2. In a humans deck, you want to get out on the front foot, get ahead on board, then lord them to death while using Reflector Mage or Path to Exile to clear any blockers. I further confirmed this when I looked back at the videos I made from my twitch stream a few weeks ago - there were times where Bolt was in my opening hand, but a Pilgrim would have been so much better. It was very rare that the case was the other way around.
- The "conventional" wisdom I had gained from playing decks like Naya Company was that you don't want to run too many mana dorks since they are terrible Collected Company hits. While this is still true, it isn't nearly as big of a cost in a Humans deck. In this deck, any creature can be either made huge thanks to lords or it can grow Lieutenant and Champion. This gives us the unique luxury of being able to run a couple of extra dorks without it significantly impacting lategame draws.
- The mana base is much smoother without having to fetch red for Bolt. I'm able to fetch basics a lot more than I used to.
- The maindeck difference between my deck and the Lepore deck is Duskwatch Recruiter instead of Meddling Mage. I think having a 2 toughness 2 drop is a big deal for us, but I don't like Mage because it's often very awkward - you either need perfect information, play against decks with only 1 card to worry about or be REALLY GOOD at guessing. Without any of those things, it's really just a vanilla 2/2 for 2. Duskwatch Recruiter, on the other hand, is consistently fine in the early game and really good in the mid and late game. He eeks out a little extra card advantage - this doesn't seem like much, but in a deck where each creature means so much, it's nothing to sneeze at. Whether you're looking for one of the toolbox creatures out of the sideboard, a Reflector Mage to bounce a pesky creature or a Mantis Rider to push through damage in a board stall, it's great to have extra ways to find them in a pinch. And since the new list has upped the creature count to 31, it's trivial to hit a creature off of his ability each time. It's also super easy to cast, being Gx as opposed to UW. With all of that said, this is a slot similar to the Lyev Skyknight slot where we don't quite have the right card yet, but this will have to do for now. I've been happy with the choice so far.
- Instead of getting fancy with my 3 drop choices, I came to the conclusion that it was just best to jam four copies of each of the two best 3-drops by a wide margin. This even cleared up a sideboard slot as an added bonus.
- Just want to quickly mention Disdainful Stroke as a card that hits both creatures and spells that we care a lot about. I think a 3/2 split of Negate and Stroke in the board is very good.
As a brewer, I admit it feels a little "bad" to essentially circle around to a deck that was already built, but I really can't argue with the choices. My testing and experience with the deck has led to very similar conclusions as far as the maindeck configuration is concerned. I plan to make similar changes to the Abzan Company list, taking out Dromoka's Command for Avacyn's Pilgrim and taking out the 4th Mayor of Avabruck for a Duskwatch Recruiter. More consistent turn 2 Anafenzas sounds like fun to me .
Abzan Midrange
Selesnya Tron
Gruul Tron
Grixis Delver
Bant Eldrazi
Green Elves
Ink Humans
Unknown
This week, would it be a reasonable call to cut the Skyship Plunderers for main deck meddling mages (Calling Ugin/Karn against Tron, Ezuri against Elves, Engineered Explosives against Eldrazi, or Fatal Push against Abzan), or some other human (More Mayors of Avabruck?) since there's no infect or affinity that I'll need early aerial blockers against?
Additionally, what do I do against elves? I didn't play them last week, but from what someone who did play against them said, they went wide very quickly and created tokens to block them forever. Relying on just Mantis Riders and possibly the skyship plunderers for evasion seems risky.
The list looks good but I have a couple of reservations:
#With only 8x instants in the deck Jace, Vryn's Prodigy seems rather weak here, why not use Eternal Witness instead ?
#6x Mana dorks seem too much, I would cut the 2x Avacyn's Pilgrim for the 4th Mayor and the 3rd Duskwatch, or maybe 2x Metallic Mimic.
Neirae,
#Meddling Mage is useful against combo decks, I wouldn't use it against any of the decks you've mentioned since they are not dependent of a single card to win.
#"Elves" is a bad match-up since you also play creatures and are much slower without sweepers to keep them in check, some copies of Repel the Abominable can be of use and also trying to attack them aggressively while trying to remove their key creatures (Elvish Archdruid, Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Heritage Druid) to slow them down.
We are uniquely suited to playing a lot of dorks: due to Lords and champions a pilgrim will often commit 3-4 power to the board, as opposed to 1 in another deck. Our Lords are also much more powerful cards in games where we have an explosive start, and casting a collected company on turn three when ahead on board is frequently just going to end the game
Additionally, 8 mana creatures helps facilitate late game cards like duskwatch or (in my build) tireless tracker
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy vs Eternal Witness is an interesting debate. I prefer Jace because he's lower on the curve and helps dig through the deck. With 8 instants and only 2 Jaces, it's very rare to not have something to flash back; I would never run more than 2 though. His floor is a looter that slows down an opposing creature when he flips. His ceiling is a looter that gets us multiple cards deeper in the deck, then flips and brings back the best card in the deck. The floor for E Wit is a 2/1 for 3 and the ceiling is a 2/1 that also brings back the best card in the deck. My biggest issue with E Wit is that it's usually awkward in an opening hand, because you can't really get value out of it until something meaningful is in the graveyard. You really just want to hit it off Company. Jace is a welcome sight in just about any opening hand because he helps you dig through your deck, get to your good stuff, then recur a Path or Company. In other words, Jace creates his own value while E Wit requires other things to happen before it's meaningful. They both serve similar functions and are both very playable, but Jace is my preference and has been a consistently great performer.
As for Avacyn's Pilgrim, I went into a good bit of detail about that in my previous post if you want the whole story. But in short, I really like having more consistently fast opening hands. Being able to either cast 2 creatures on turn 2 or one of the 3 drops is really where the deck wants to be. And unlike many other Collected Company decks, running extra mana dorks in a Humans deck isn't as big of a cost since they grow other creatures in the deck and can also become large themselves thanks to the lords. They also just make the lords better overall, both by being extra bodies to pump and being able to put out more creatures earlier.
Creatures (31):
1CMC (10)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Champion of the Parish
2x Avacyn's Pilgrim
2CMC (10)
4x Skyship Plunderer
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3CMC (11)
4x Reflector Mage
4x Mantis Rider
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
Non-Creature Spells (8):
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Lands (21):
4x Windswept Heath
4x Flooded Strand
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Breeding Pool
3x Plains
3x Forest
1x Island
Side Deck:
2x Fragmentise
2x Riders of Gavony
2x Meddling Mage
2x Celestial Purge
2x Lantern Scout
2x Mayor of Avabruck
1x Spellskite
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Dromoka's Command
2-0 against Bant Eldrazi.
I won the dice roll and went first game 1. We both had amazing openings.
Turn 2 Thought Knot Seer was scary, but after turn 1 champion of the parish, having to choose between collected company, reflector mage, and Thalia's lieutenant was not a nice decision. He made me discard reflector mage, Thalia's lieutenant buffed Champion of the parish, I allowed him to attack, a few times, but collected company into double Thalia's lieutenants followed by a champion of the parish into another reflector mage and skyship plunderer created a wall wide enough that even drowners of hope weren't enough to get through, and spread out enough that even engineered explosives wouldn't cripple it. Eldrazi displacer was extremely awkward for him.
Game 2 was much less of a crushing victory. I didn't draw Riders of Gavony or Collected Company. However, I didn't lose right away either. Buffed Skyship Plunderer was scary enough to draw removal, and Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant grew out of control. Three drowners of hope made closing it out without dying myself a bit tricky, but I got there.
0-2 against Through the Breach Combo
My opponent got his combo on turn 3 in both games. I had never seen anything like it, so I didn't realise that I needed to hold up mana for Path to Exile on the Primordial.
Game 2 I drew my meddling mage, but named the titan instead of through the breach. This was just classic inexperience (I only started playing modern last week). I do feel that I might be better sideboarding repel the abominable or more lantern scouts against this matchup though. Even with that horrible mistake, I still managed to get him down to 7 life. Drawing into either lantern scout or not throwing due to misunderstanding Through the Breach would have won me it.
1-0 against Soul Sisters
Turn 1: Pass
Turn 2: Pass
Turn 2: Champion of the Parish, Noble Hierarch
Turn 3: Spectral Procession
Turn 3: Mantis Rider, attack, triple blocked by spirit tokens for mutual destruction
Turn 4: Serra Ascendant, Path to Exile Champion of the Parish
Turn 4: Collected Company: Mantis Rider and Eternal Witness (The dream!), return collected company to hand
Turn 5: Path to Exile Mantis Rider
Turn 5: Collected Company: Double Thalia's Lieutenants, Collected Company: Champion of the Parish, Thalia's Lieutenant
To be brief, he didn't draw any of his ways to turn lifegain into something that effects the board state other than eventually activating his Serra Ascendant. He lost the board hard, made the mistake of attacking with his Serra Ascendant leaving him completely open to taking 20 damage on the next turn, bringing her crashing down to earth again, and even if he had saved her to block, I had reflector mage in hand.
After we finished that game, due to starting late to give our opponents plenty of time to show up, placings were made, we got our prizes, and the night ended.
I no longer fear the Eldrazi enough that I feel the need to side deck Riders of Gavony.
I played horribly against the combo deck simply due to inexperience with the archetype, but the first step might be to sideboard some Repel the Abominables, or go back to side decking Mana Leak.
Unsurprisingly, strong creature presence beats Soul Sisters if they don't get an early pridemate while I have no Path to Exile or Reflector Mage.
I can't say either way whether or not Avacyn's Pilgrim was helpful. I never actually drew into it or pulled it with Collected Company.
A copy or two of big Thalia seems like a decent option as well.
For card draw I prefer more Tireless Tracker rather than Thraben Inspector.
You can also get more value from CoCo with more 3-drops.
Here is my proposed list:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Renegade Rallier
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Instant (8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Temple Garden
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Plains
2 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Auriok Champion
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Repel the Abominable
2 Rest in Peace
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Stony Silence
1 Eternal Witness