Before I write this lengthy post, I just want to be clear - I am discussing this from a purely competitive standpoint. If someone likes a different build for entertainment/fun, then that's great - I would never argue against that, since that is what Magic is all about in the end. I am the type of person that generally does not like to net-deck top tier decks (unless it REALLY interests me, which is very rare) but I do like my decks to have legitimate game against top tier decks.
Indeed some of your statements are a bit off, so I'll answer you :
I feel like if you're already slowing the deck down enough to play Collected Company, you're going to need/want more interaction, more disruption and more card advantage
No, you don't want to do that. Melira Coco and Elves Coco are 2 shining proofs that show you don't need more interaction, but rather more hits with Coco.
Collected Company is a midrange card.
No, it's an aggro card. It's also a tempo card. It equals 2 relevant plays in one turn, so you get ahead on board, even when you're on the draw against other creature decks. The Human archetype as we see in this topic wants to put a critical mass of permanents on board, and Coco helps there as a top curver. Don't even compare its power level to Gather the Townsfolk, please.
It can be an aggro card in the right deck. CoCo Elves has the ability to play CoCo on T2 with a good draw. It has a ton of lethal alpha strike options in a wide variety of board states, even when the opponent has a lot of large blockers. The Melira CoCo deck can get an instant infinite combo. Both of the decks you mention are combo-ish in nature, in which they usually just win on the spot with the right hits - they also don't need interaction for this reason. The 4C Humans list does not do those things (or, at least, requires very specific board states and very specific draws) and does not have the same power level as those decks. There's not much of a comparison to be made here. I'll get back to the Gather the Townsfolk comparison in a moment.
To the contrary, casting CoCo at opponent's EOT and getting something like Lyev Skyknight and Lightning Mauler just seems awful
You don't know how to play Coco in this archetype then. You play the card 1st main phase almost all the time, period. I explained it twice in this topic, but I'll do it again so people can play it correctly in a 4C Coco list : Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant, BTE, overall pump effects and also Lyev Skyknight and its cousins must be on board precombat, so you know what you'll attack with, you can get rid of a blocker, and you don't expose yourself to a random Coco during the attack/block steps, because you could find nothing and lose creatures on a blind gamble.
Yes, you may want to play it eot against wrath effects and force counterspells.
On a side note, Mauler has been dismissed by myself and Shelldell, personally in favor for the incredible Burning-Tree Emissary in my case. Not sure about Shelldell but like he said, we're on the same track.
Obviously I understand that in your list, you'd want to play CoCo on the main phase - I even mentioned that with my 5C list, it's sometimes a good idea to cast it main phase for a lethal Mantis Rider. I just think that's an awful reason to play CoCo. The reason to play CoCo over a blitz deck, in my opinion, is to have better play against sweeper control decks and grindy midrange decks. All you're doing is slowing your curve down while still making your deck just fold to Anger of the Gods or some other wrath. I'd much rather play a blitz deck with built in card advantage/resilience over a slower CoCo deck that folds to the same cards and doesn't kill as fast as consistently.
I will mention here that I do know you can still EOT CoCo to get around sweepers, but the sweeper matchups are exactly where your creatures are bad. A deck that runs Anger isn't going to care that you just got a vanilla 2/2, a 3/1 vanilla Flyer or a vanilla 3/2. Sure, Kytheon and Brawler would be decent hits, but you're still in a spot where you want a very specific draw (Rider) in order to flip Kytheon - otherwise, yea, you may get a big damage hit in, but they'll just deal with them on their next turn. Put my 5C deck in that scenario: EOT CoCo, get a 2/1 that immediately draws a card on upkeep, a 4/4 that's hard to burn off the table or a 2/1 that gets my CoCo back. I'm swinging for the same types of damage while having way more resilience and card advantage behind it. (for obvious reasons, I'm not mentioning Mantis Rider or the other creatures that we both run - since we both run them, there isn't much comparison to be made).
Also, a sorcery speed Collected Company that gets two weak Humans feels an awful lot like....a Gather the Townsfolk. Funny enough, in a properly built blitz deck, the Gather tokens are going to be bigger than whatever creatures you end up hitting off of CoCo by the time you get to cast CoCo; not only that, but they're already on the battlefield by that point and have multiple swings in. Heck, sometimes Gather can get FIVE Humans!! So yeah, I'll keep the comparison alive and well .
Funny you mention Mauler, I was going to recommend Emissary in that list instead cause it's a killer card. Good call there.
Turn 1 Noble into Turn 2 Mage or Skyknight, with more than likely nothing worthwhile to bounce or detain? Yuck.
Noble into Rider is good. Into Skyknight, well you have a flyer that attacks through Tarmo and that blocks Infect and Affi. I don't know on what basis you build your list, but today's Magic tells it's good to have flyers on T2. It's like if you said you eot Spell Queller for nothing, so well, the card ins't worth the maindeck of Spirits... Makes no sense once you look at the format.
Great, turn 2 Lyev Skyknight. Your opponent goes Bolt pass. It doesn't have the haste of Mantis Rider nor the toughness of Anafenza, the Foremost, so it just literally did nothing and died to the most common removal spell at sorcery speed. You are right, it is good to have flyers on turn 2, hence why we are both running Mantis Rider, but you need more than just that in modern. It's not even a good blocker at 1 toughness, and is a great 3 mana target for Electrolyze - in that case, you lose your Noble and your 3 drop in 1 swoop. So much downside, with upside that requires such specific scenarios to matter.
To the contrary, Spell Queller is a beast because it hits almost every spell in the format, which is most certainly worth the occasional "brick." Not only that, but it's a better blocker and it has natural flash. I don't see the comparison there. It is a far better card than Lyev Skyknight. Between this comparison and the one with Elves and Melira combo, I feel like you're justifying your choices through comparisons with things that are far more powerful and not actually very comparable. Since I have already explained why these comparisons are bad and you "asked" about how I build my lists, lets look at some comparisons I have made while building my 5C list. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, I've been playing Naya Company for the past year or so - a deck that has seen top 8 success at the pro level. Before I decided to build my 5C deck by getting rid of my Naya cards (in MTGO), I wanted to make sure I would be at a similar power level. So lets see:
Wild Nacatl vs Champion of the Parish - Both are 1 drops that are easily 3/3s. Champion has HUGE, consistent upside of getting much larger than 3/3. There is the rare circumstance where he isn't bigger than 3/3, but certainly not often enough to not give the nod to Champ here.
Tarmogoyf vs Dark Confidant - Card advantage on a stick vs effective beater. With all the graveyard hate in the format, goyf can sometimes feel bad. Bob's life drain also comes into play every once in a while. Both scenarios are pretty evenly rare, so it's a wash. Bob plays really well with the rest of the deck, and similar to goyf, can sometimes get in some good beats while providing card advantage still. I want to give the nudge to Bob here due to card advantage, but he is more vulnerable to removal and worse against aggro, so it's really close and I can see arguments either way.
Knight of the Reliquary vs Mantis Rider - Knight is usually a 4/4, but sometimes is just a 2/2 or 3/3. Rider is always a 3/3 and can often be a 4/4 with any one of several cards alongside it. Rider has evasion, while Knight heavily relies on Kessig Wolf Run (I ran a 1 of Elspeth, Knight-Errant for this reason. That card is amazing). Rider has vigilance, which is great against aggro. Rider can block flyers. Rider has haste, so can get damage in before getting hit at sorcery speed. Knight, like goyf, can sometimes be hit with graveyard hate and just be a 2/2. Pretty easy win for Rider.
Loxodon Smiter vs Anafenza, the Foremost - Smiter can't be countered, but Anafenza is in a deck with 4 Cavern of Souls (I went up to 4 since my last post). Anafenza makes other creatures bigger. Anafenza provides psuedo graveyard hate. Smiter isn't legendary and is lots of fun against discard effects. Another even match, but I think Anafenza gets this one too.
Obviously, cards like Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck aren't as good in a vacuum against cards like Voice of Resurgence and Scavenging Ooze, but in a deck that runs 27 human creatures, they're not terribly far behind. The 5C deck has major upsides like Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize while still running bolt and path. Both mana bases are painful, but the Naya one is obviously smoother. So, while there are upsides and downsides to both, the overall power level is directly comparable in a vacuum. In practice, I find the Humans deck to be generally more powerful - it's better at aggro'ing people out thanks to Champion of the Parish and Mantis Rider, better in grindy matchups thanks to Dark Confidant in the main and better at disrupting combos/expensive spell decks thanks to Thoughtseize.
Aside from Lyev Skyknight or Reflector Mage, how does the deck get around a big Tarmogoyf or similarly sized blocker?
Well, it doesn't. That's why you should play these dudes ! Anafenza the Foremost is actually worse against grounders because she's smaller than her opponents and can't attack through them. You're shooting an arrow in your own knee here. ^^
So if I'm understanding this correctly, this build:
- Has few ways to get around Tarmogoyf
- Has a very hard time getting goyf off the battlefield permanently
- The creatures that CAN get around goyf die to Lightning Bolt and any other burn spell
FeelsBadMan
As for Anafenza, the Foremost - my deck runs 4 Path to Exile, 2 Abrupt Decay and 12 creatures that make her bigger on attacks. Big blockers are not an issue - either they die immediately or Anafenza gets way too big. Not only that, but she helps stop/slow down the myriad of decks that want creatures in their graveyards while also being far more resistant to Anger of the Gods and other burn spells. The 4C list is full of creatures that need a lot more help to get through blockers while having far fewer, slower, more expensive, purely temporary ways to clear them out. And if Anafenza gets a chance to attack, she makes my team bigger (though I will mention the sad nombo with Mantis Rider boo. Far from a deal breaker, though - if I'm swinging with those 2, life is good). That's a whole lot more than what Reflector Mage and Lyev Skyknight do in a maindeck configuration.
I'm not seeing much reason to slow that build down for Collected Company - screw CoCo, don't get fancy. Just kill 'em.
On reason is blitz humans is worse than other fast aggros, while 4C Coco Humans may be better than Zoo overall. The version I play is super pro-active, very simple to pilot, and goes bigger than the Wx versions. Compare it to the different versions of Zoo. Some play small, others play big. But in Humans, I think playing small is strictly weaker than playing big, while it might not be true for Zoo decks (we often summon the metagame call in order to choose the stronger version of Zoo).
I disagree. A blitz human deck can be built to have lots of resilience, and it runs over other aggro lists. Yes, it is very slightly less explosive than other aggro decks, but it does have upsides - the creatures get wider and bigger than other aggro decks, it's super consistent, has more card advantage, has maindeck cards that gain life etc. Cards like Warden of the First Tree, Thraben Inspector and Student of Warfare are great in the lategame. Kytheon, Hero of Akros is easy to flip. Luckily for the blitz deck, however, games rarely run past turn 5.
The thing is, I do not see what the 4C list is doing better than a well rounded blitz list when it comes to aggression and I don't see what it's doing better than a black splash list when it comes to midrange. It feels like the worst of both worlds - lots of weak creatures that all die to popular red spells while having interaction that's too narrow. Sure, you can "refill" with a hasty Collected Company, but the blitz deck is going to have already done more damage while most likely leaving behind some clue tokens, or if properly playing around a sweeper, a backup threat like Warden of the First Tree. The 5C list is going to EOT CoCo, hit Bob and Anafenza/Mantis Rider/Witness/etc and refill even quicker and draw into more generically powerful spells. No matter which way you look at it, it's not doing anything better than a properly specialized list.
Dark Confidant is a card we play in true midrange decks: Tokens, Jund, Abzan, D&T... but here, turning a Coco list into a midrange thing is a trap imho.
Anafenza is interesting but in the end, she's not worth the splash when compared to the blue options, just better suited for the format.
Except you get a LOT more from black than just Anafenza. Abupt Decay and Thoughtseize are both great at picking up the deck's weak spots. I still don't see how Reflector Mage main deck is considered a better splash when it just dies to bolt/anger and doesn't actually do anything in a good number of matchups. Sure, you may argue that Path to Exile is also sometimes a dead card, which is true, but it is so important in so many matchups that it is worth the slots. Reflector Mage is not; it's also not instant speed on its own and it costs 3 mana.
Still a few days ago, I beat Dredge while my opponent bragged out I couldn't win. I used Lyev Skyknight to stop him from blocking, and screwed all his math and hope in one play. I came back from Tron and PWs (especially Lili in Jund) and Nahiri in Jeskai) numerous times just thanks to Skyknight, where only Coco could've helped me otherwise. I was the first to dismiss it in the first place, so I feel legit when I say it's better than its cousins (Reflector, Fiend and Banisher), cause I've tried them hard, and still to day I wouldn't come back to them.
I'm sure it's a fantastic card in some specific scenarios. I just feel like there are far more consistent, cost efficient ways to achieve the same effect in modern. In any of those scenarios you mentioned, it sounds like Path to Exile would have done the same thing. Path to Exile also clears big blockers permanently, stops combo etc. For 1 mana. At instant speed. I do agree that Reflector, Fiend and Banisher are also terrible maindeck cards. I currently run 2 Reflector Mage in the side for some extra tempo in creature matchups (specifically Eldrazi...but idk if the deck really needs that much help in that matchup), but I wouldn't run it maindeck.
With all of that said, I think your build has a LOT of potential as a Naya blitz deck. T1 Champion of the Parish into something like T2 Burning-Tree Emissary -> Grim Lavamancer + Warden of the First Tree or Voltaic Brawler sounds like a lot of fun. Swing with a 3/3 or 4/4 Champ on T2, play a lord on T3, hit for a bazillion. Opponent is dead without a sweeper or a string of spot removal. Run some copies of Atarka's Command. Game over. (obviously this is a bit Christmas land-ish, but just for example). Playing CoCo and stuff like Reflector Mage feels way to slow - just pump the deck full of killer Emissary hits, some bolts and commands and go to town. You already somewhat have that aggro potential - just maximize the chances of it instead of getting slow and fancy. Who needs to play around sweepers when you deal a ton of damage before sweepers can be cast, then have a bunch of burn spells behind it? Who needs to worry about Tarmogoyf when you're swinging with an army of expendable 3/3s and 4/4s with burn spells?
EDIT: I just watched the ChannelFireball series with the 5C humans deck. I think Lightning Mauler is a very important card for adding explosiveness to any humans aggro deck that runs red. Lyev Skyknight and Reflector Mage seem like good hits once you have an opponent down to almost-lethal on board, which a low slung aggro deck is good at. This is kinda why I don't like them in a slower Collected Company build (which are also builds without Lightning Mauler), because in one of the games, they really needed to be able to permanently remove a few creatures when all they could do was bounce/disable them. A build with 4 mana spells and less explosive starts needs better interaction, because those scenarios are bound to happen more often.
Let's frame our discussion with a snapshot of the global 2-week meta.
11% Jund/Junk
10% URx control
9% Infect
9% Eldrazi
7% Dredge
7% Affinity
7% Tron
6% Burn/Zoo
Skyknight and Path aren't really competing for slots in the 4C list, they are at different points on the curve and not mutually exclusive. In the 1-drop slot we've already allotted space for 4x removal spells and I'm neutral on Path vs Bolt. Path will be better against Eldrazi and Dredge but I think you could make a case for Bolt for clock speed and PW interaction against Jund & Tron (Path obviously helps against fatties there, too). I would prefer Bolt for Infect, Affinity, Burn, and probably URx. Overall having as much interaction as possible without diluting CoCo-hits will help with Infect so the combination of Lavamancer, Bolt, Helix, and Skyknight in the main and Blessed Alliance in the side are great.
Outside of some ultra grindy Grixis matchups I personally haven't played many games where I wasn't satisfied with the card advantage afforded by CoCo + 2x Witness + Horizon Canopy. Jund seems like a realistically winnable matchup and those top 4 aggro matchups are going to go really fast. In the quick, relatively linear global meta the raw explosive power offered by BTE + Brawler has been more useful in the 2-drop slot than Bob for me and all the life that's saved has certainly helped the burn matchup as well.
Aside: It's difficult to lightly splash black, too: If you want to cast Thoughtseize reliably on T1 you need to run ~14 sources of black without Cavern (and no help from Hierarch) so you probably need to go to a rainbow land configuration with City of Brass etc.
Regarding Skyknight vs Anafenza: I would prefer Anafenza for Dredge and possibly Tron + URx, but I would prefer Skyknight for the rest. If I could splash black without too much pain I might run 1x Anafenza in the side for my list.
And you are correct that the WGRu list isn't as fast as the Blitz decks or as grindy as the 5c lists. It is built more as a tempo deck trying to hit a sweet spot between the two, and has a lot of flexible lines of play and varried post-board configurations. IMO it's the best option online or for an unknown meta, but it's not hard to imagine metas where emphasizing black over blue might make sense.
Let's frame our discussion with a snapshot of the global 2-week meta.
11% Jund/Junk
10% URx control
9% Infect
9% Eldrazi
7% Dredge
7% Affinity
7% Tron
6% Burn/Zoo
Skyknight and Path aren't really competing for slots in the 4C list, they are at different points on the curve and not mutually exclusive. In the 1-drop slot we've already allotted space for 4x removal spells and I'm neutral on Path vs Bolt. Path will be better against Eldrazi and Dredge but I think you could make a case for Bolt for clock speed and PW interaction against Jund & Tron (Path obviously helps against fatties there, too). I would prefer Bolt for Infect, Affinity, Burn, and probably URx. Overall having as much interaction as possible without diluting CoCo-hits will help with Infect so the combination of Lavamancer, Bolt, Helix, and Skyknight in the main and Blessed Alliance in the side are great.
Outside of some ultra grindy Grixis matchups I personally haven't played many games where I wasn't satisfied with the card advantage afforded by CoCo + 2x Witness + Horizon Canopy. Jund seems like a realistically winnable matchup and those top 4 aggro matchups are going to go really fast. In the quick, relatively linear global meta the raw explosive power offered by BTE + Brawler has been more useful in the 2-drop slot than Bob for me and all the life that's saved has certainly helped the burn matchup as well.
Aside: It's difficult to lightly splash black, too: If you want to cast Thoughtseize reliably on T1 you need to run ~14 sources of black without Cavern (and no help from Hierarch) so you probably need to go to a rainbow land configuration with City of Brass etc.
Regarding Skyknight vs Anafenza: I would prefer Anafenza for Dredge and possibly Tron + URx, but I would prefer Skyknight for the rest. If I could splash black without too much pain I might run 1x Anafenza in the side for my list.
And you are correct that the WGRu list isn't as fast as the Blitz decks or as grindy as the 5c lists. It is built more as a tempo deck trying to hit a sweet spot between the two, and has a lot of flexible lines of play and varried post-board configurations. IMO it's the best option online or for an unknown meta, but it's not hard to imagine metas where emphasizing black over blue might make sense.
Fair assessments; can't really argue. You're right about the mana base; my build is really struggling with it. Honestly, I'm still having the most success with the straight up GW aggro build. It runs smooth, consistent and fast. It has solid resilience in the mid and late game, especially for a 1 and 2 drop deck. It's not fancy, it just wins games. I really want the 5C build to work but it just hurts haha. I feel like the creature base is right where I want it, but it may just be too taxing on colors.
As for the Thoughtseize issue, it's not a card I want to cast on turn 1 anyway, so that wasn't a concern when building the deck. It's a card I want to cast on turn 3 and later to snipe cards I care about.
I don't want to be offensive, but your long post is wrong on many levels. You speak of what you see on paper, but don't quite know what happens in a real game of Magic with the archetype. You just come up with your first impressions, which I understand, but I wished you would've given more credit to players who have put some effort in building the lists.
Coco is an aggro card in the Human shell, because the creatures you play are aggro. Put 2 Thalia's Lieutenant, Mantis Rider or Lyev Skyknight (or any combination of those cards) on the board in one single Coco and you'll revise your perception of the card. You see it as slow because you're still in the process of trying fast versions and slowly try to play a third colour. I've been through this too, and now I'm telling you the Coco version is superior in my testing, and more competitive than the other versions I saw in this topic. I would even say we're not here to debate who has the biggest one, but how to improve each variant. Show me an Abzan list that is good, that's all I want to see.
You don't like Lyev because you haven't played the card -and I would speculate- the archetype long enough to see how it functions, and what it needs to win. I'm not saying Ana is bad, but that she's not worth the black splash alone, and Lyev doesn't envy her stats. But this you won't notice because you'll never play Lyev. So be it.
Queller is played in a tempo shell, where it dies to Bolt, Lili, has less offensive power and is there to interact with the opponent's position. They're very comparable in their differences and similarities. No crime intended.
Except you get a LOT more from black than just Anafenza. Abupt Decay and Thoughtseize are both great at picking up the deck's weak spots.
Yes, you're right here. But they're reactive cards, and don't help you win. They help you not lose. Which is something fine in a maindeck, but not the vision we have of a usual aggro deck.
Also, the fact black offers some tools doesn't mean blue doesn't offer similar tools (counterspells, removal spells, silver bullets). So since you find in blue what you have in black, one of the only cards worth the black splash for it's unique offensive angle is Ana.
The thing is, I do not see what the 4C list is doing better than a well rounded blitz list when it comes to aggression and I don't see what it's doing better than a black splash list when it comes to midrange
Because once again, you haven't played the archetype enough. If you want to dismiss a list with some arguments, at least try it before. You have to understand one of the big flaw of a blitz version : it has no massive evasion.
Elves has Ezuri and Shaman, Merfolk has Islandwalk, Affi has flying. Mono white Humans has Brave the Elements, great... 4C Coco has flying, Trample, and Burn to the face. It has the best 3-drop amongst all variants too.
I'm just defending this shell because, amongst all I've tried, the Coco shell gives me the best results by a big margin, over months of testing (since Lieutenant printing). What about you and the different variants you've been testing ? How long have you been playing the one that please you most ?
I'm sure it's a fantastic card in some specific scenarios. I just feel like there are far more consistent, cost efficient ways to achieve the same effect in modern.
No. Path isn't as good as a tempo effect on a 3/1 flyer. And it's fantastic in a vacuum, not in some scenarios. Overall mate, don't debate a card you never played with, because it ain't gonna lead nowhere. Personally, and you can read the topic to check it out, I tried cards that I believed in and eventually dismissed them myself, hearing the other players' feedback and impressions, hopeful or not. Lightning Mauler, Smuggler's Copter, Mayor of Avabruck, Hanweir Garrison, etc... all these cards I love, but they don't fit very well in a 4C Coco shell. Lyev ain't in that category. I wish it would, because everybody thinks this card is trash, but I can't dismiss a card that works in the archetype !
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Why play 4 colors and the "rainbow" lands ? This manabase seems really painful (and you also have Bob) for rather little payoff.
It looks like a less consistent version of "Grixis Delver" imho.
Tasigur seems rather bad here without enablers like fetch lands and Thought Scour and more cantrips (also for Delver).
headminerve how much Cage have you run into so far? How have those matches gone?
Also what was your experience with Selfless Spirit, especially against sweepers? Obviously it's an evasive, CoCo-compatible threat that keeps your main-phased, proactive beatdown plan intact, although it's a more narrow card than Negate or Mana Leak.
Why play 4 colors and the "rainbow" lands ? This manabase seems really painful (and you also have Bob) for rather little payoff.
It looks like a less consistent version of "Grixis Delver" imho.
Tasigur seems rather bad here without enablers like fetch lands and Thought Scour and more cantrips (also for Delver).
This deck runs a lot of spells, Delver nearly always hard flips in my testing.
The deck only runs two brass lands, it actually takes less damage then a tri-colored deck over the course of a game (I tested that one quite thoroughly) which is why I no longer use Death's Shadow or timely reinforcements. I tested each of those in the main before I discovered that my opponent's actually took more damage then me from their lands, and I almost never fell behind on health. Death's Shadow seemed like a better Tarmogoyf in the deck at first, but it simply doesn't hurt itself enough, even when I had thoughtseize instead of inquisition of kozilek.
The big advantage of the deck is that it can hit 5 colors effortlessly. It runs abrupt decay, path to exile, and lightning bolt without hiccuping, and can side in anything in the game, no matter how odd the casting cost. It can hit turn 3 Anger of the Gods reliably, Supreme Verdict on four if the meta gets bigger, etc. I have gone back and forth on lingering souls in the deck, because it offers huge advantage but feels redundant with young pyromancer.
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Pauper: UB Wight Phantasm RB Burn UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
I don't want to be offensive, but your long post is wrong on many levels. You speak of what you see on paper, but don't quite know what happens in a real game of Magic with the archetype. You just come up with your first impressions, which I understand, but I wished you would've given more credit to players who have put some effort in building the lists.
I was going to type another lengthy reply, but I'm not even gonna bother. You've been extremely defensive from the moment I started asking questions/providing opinion and you seem to think that because I haven't been posting in this thread until a few days ago that it must mean I haven't touched a Humans deck or a Coco deck or cards that have been around since RTR. My first post in here even laid out several different builds I have tried - which, by the way, are not all the ones I have attempted, but the only ones that had some actual success - and I have posted several more different builds since then. We obviously have different deck building styles and different goals we want to achieve, therefore our card preferences are going to be different. I'm not taking jabs at you or questioning your experience because you aren't running cards that I have found to be great, yet that's what I'm getting in return. I simply pointed out things I didn't like and why I didn't like them. You came at me questioning my play skill and experience instead of addressing the arguments I was presenting. So, until you want to have a civil discussion without assumptions or passive-aggressive quips, I'm going to direct my attention elsewhere.
In other news, I've been fine tuning my GW Aggro and Abzan Aggro builds. Specifically, the sideboards and mana bases have been the main focus points in both builds. I continue to be pleased with the consistency, speed and resilience. The 1 drops continue to provide absurd value on a regular basis and the general creature sets feel great. Both builds are consistently beating many of the more popular decks, like Eldrazi Tron, Burn and Affinity. First, the decklists, then some thoughts:
Warden of the First Tree is a card I firmly believe needs to be in any GW based, non-CoCo aggressive humans build. It is fine in the early game as an extra 1 drop to trigger with Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant, but where it really shines is in the mid and late game. The problem I have found with aggro decks in general (the mono white build suffered badly from this) is that mana flooding was always an instant death sentence. The deck could never use extra mana to advance its board state or move towards a relevant later game threat. Student of Warfare was the closest thing, but it wasn't quite enough on its own. Warden of the First Tree does all of those things. He's easily a 4/4 in this deck with the ability to gain lifelink, and the biggest part, trample. This card has beaten BW tokens in the late game, even after two-in-a-row top decked Spectral Procession backed with an Intangible Virtue from earlier in the game. He's beaten UW control decks that empty out all their resources dealing with my board while I held him in my hand as the post-sweeper follow up. The list goes on, but decks like my GW and Abzan Aggro builds gain a lot of consistency and resilience from a card that provides a mana sink and becomes an 8/8 trample lifelink at a stage in the game where most modern decks are out of gas. Being able to turn 1 drop weenies into lategame gas without special help is huge game for aggro decks that generally suffer from a lack of resilience.
Blossoming Defense continues to earn its keep, fulfilling a very important protection role. It is especially punishing when an opponent has no blockers and tries to rely on a removal spell, but instead gets smacked in the face for 2 extra damage. It is a key ingredient to the Warden of the First Tree lategame strategy and does a great job of protecting Dark Confidant in the Abzan build.
Selfless Spirit is the newest addition to the GW build. Haven't gotten to try it out yet, but I look forward to it and will report back with results.
Dark Confidant has been growing on me in the Abzan build. I'm still not completely behind him, but it feels so good to be able to keep the tank fueled up in an aggro deck. The best part is that I never have to worry about losing more than 2 life! Usually it's 1 or 0. For most people trying to use him in an aggro build, speed loss is an issue, but all I took out for Bob was 1 Student of Warfare, 1 Hamlet Captain and 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - so the actual clock hasn't been affected much at all. 99% of the time, I prefer having Bob over any of those other cards. I may drop to 3 since he can be bad in multiples and add back either a Hamlet Captain to bump the clock up or a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben for disruption, but that's about it.
The other card obtained from the black splash is Thoughtseize. I generally cast it between turns 2-4 to either clear a path or find out whether or not I can put the pedal down. In the matchups where it is needed, it is very much welcome. There's nothing quite as fun as sniping the one Ghostly Prison my opponent was relying on in their opening hand then continuing to hit them in the face before they find another answer. If you notice, the difference in the two sideboards are 2 Selfless Spirit and 2 Gaddock Teeg vs 4 Thoughtseize. The cards I want to snipe with Thoughtseize are the cards I am trying to stop with Teeg and Spirit (sweepers, big planeswalkers, etc). The obvious upside is that Thoughtseize is far more generic, so it covers both bases and then some, and is cheaper to cast.
Natural State feels like a great sideboard option over Sundering Growth. The extra mana cost, especially being colored, is often a killer with Growth. Especially early in a game where the deck really needs to get out in front, it is very important to make the most of the mana available. Last night, I was up against some type of UBx Smuggler's Copter deck - Game 2, Turn 3 - my lands were two Cavern of Souls and one Horizon Canopy. I had a couple of creatures on board and needed to get rid of his Copter, which he was did a great job of protecting with counter magic in game 1. He was tapped out so I took the chance to kill it with Natural State, cast Mayor of Avabruck and swing for a good chunk of damage. Obviously this isn't an example of wrecking a T1 strategy, but it's certainly a proof of concept. That type of tempo swing is exactly what the deck needs, especially when faced with pesky artifacts and enchantments. And only needing a single green is also relevant in a deck with 4 Cavern of Souls. The only potential downside is that it's more likely to be blanked by Chalice of the Void.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is my sideboard tech for grindy midrange matchups. In my previous experience with other white weenie decks, this is by far the most consistent, hard hitting and hard to deal with card for the decks I need help against. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar could fill this slot as well, but doing so runs the risk of conflicting with a flipped Kytheon, Hero of Akros.
Watching opponents bring in Chalice of the Void is pretty hilarious. This is one of the many reasons to max out on Cavern of Souls. Chalice gets 95% nullified.
Overall, I think I'm leaning ever-so-slightly towards the Abzan version due to the minor bump in overall power level.
I took a break from the CoCo builds to further refine the aggro versions, which are proving to be both fun and solidly competitive. In the meantime, I have been doing some research on the 4C CoCo decks covered by Frank Lepore and Craig Wescoe earlier in the year and plan to take another crack at a CoCo build soon.
#Another card I tried and wasn't impressed by at all is Lightning Mauler, without a turn 2 combo with Burning-Tree Emissary it seemed bad and I would literally prefer any other 1/2-drop in the deck so I replaced him with: 2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros and 2x Grim Lavamancer (with less burn in the deck he provides reach).
#I am still unsure what is the best 1-drop alongside Champion of the Parish and I'm testing the recommended Warden of the First Tree which is less powerful than Student of Warfare but easier on the mana to pump up and can do it at instant speed.
Other options are: Monastery Swiftspear (the haste is good, especially with Kytheon, but prowess doesn't trigger that much with 12 spells), Soldier of the Pantheon (the pro-multicolor might be relevant but probably not often enough)
and Experiment One (usually will be 3/3 tops in the deck).
3x Mutagenic Growth + 3x Goblin Bushwacker was responsible for a lot of the deck's faster plays in conjunction with BTE. If you haven't played around with it yet it's worth a try.
At the same time I experimented with Swiftspear + Manamorphose. The thought here was that (1) we'd get a prowess-triggering cantrip for Swiftspear / a Surge triggering cantrip for Bushwhacker, which also (2) increased the effective density of the deck's good cards while (3) filtering BTE's RG into something compatible with more casting costs including white. The total spell package was 4x Bolt, 4x Manamorphose, 3x Mutagenic Growth, 2 Atarka's Command / Temur Battlerage. Gather the Townsfolk might be an option, too. I tended to like Temur Battlerage over Atarka's Command, as it synergizes with Mutagenic Growth and gives the deck a means of evasion. And although it's not technically a spell, I also considered playing with Simian Spirit Guide for another source of speed. Oath of Nissa gave more consistency in exchange for less explosiveness.
The overall results were occasionally good, but they tended to increase the inconsistency of what is already a rather inconsistent deck. Obviously Manamorphose makes choosing whether to mull harder, which is a strong downside when the deck is so reliant on getting a good start and maintaining momentum for the first couple turns. Swiftspear was a 2/3 on average (Lords aside), but was sometimes stuck at home as a 1/2 or was more capable as a 3/4. I would consider 12 spells an absolute minimum for even bothering with Swiftspear. 13 was better but still not great – IMO it put her on the power level of the other second-rate 1-drops, Soldier of the Pantheon / Boros Elite / Thraben Inspector, rather than elevating her to "obvious pick". Kytheon is better than all of those in a Blitz deck, though, so I'd strongly recommend running three copies of him. Experiment One really needs at least eight creatures entering with 3 power or toughness to be worthwhile, and even with that he can be a lousy topdeck.
In the end I just couldn't get the consistency to the level I wanted and I just wasn't totally happy with any of the 1-drops so I put it on the backburner.
I'm divided on Warden of the First Tree. It's definitely a great 1-drop for grindy games, but I'm not sure that it belongs in the *mainboard* of a Naya Blitz deck, where I really want to be tuned for maximum linear clock speed game one. The deck's mana is usually fully utilized by just throwing down creatures for the first 3-4 turns, and if the deck hasn't won by then there's a good chance it's not going to. I could definitely imagine having at least 3x in the SB to bring in for grindier matchups, though.
I agree with Shelldell. I don't think Warden of the First Tree is where the Naya blitz deck wants to be (I know I recommended it for "any GW based build" but I consider the Naya version to be more RW based than GW since it only runs green for Brawler and Mayor). The GW and Abzan builds aren't quite as fast and have more card advantage with Thraben Inspector, Dark Confidant and Horizon Canopy, so they are geared for more resilience as opposed to explosive early game. That's where Warden shines. In your build, I think any aggressive 1 drop will work about the same. Maybe even Boros Elite, depending on how often it's able to be triggered. I also think a 3rd Kytheon, Hero of Akros needs to be added.
Overall, in my admittedly limited testing with a Naya Blitz build, it was too inconsistent and not resilient enough for my liking. For every super explosive start, there were plenty of awkward ones. With the GW and Abzan versions, you don't get the chances of just exploding on turn 2, but what you do get is rock solid consistency and much better resilience if a game goes past turn 4, while still being able to put on heavy early pressure and potentially have the game locked up by turn 3/4.
Just a heads up - I'm planning to stream some MTGO leagues tonight with an updated (and hopefully vastly improved) 5C CoCo list and maybe the Abzan aggro list. Feel free to tune in, bounce some ideas around, and call out my punts!
Where: twitch.tv/kingcars
When: Around 7:30-8pm EST
Warden is a horrible card. So you're playing an aggro/tempo deck and want to use a card that destroys tempo? Yes, pump all your mana into this guy turn after turn, right before I kill him and erase 3 of your turns.
If you're using warden as a save for after a sweep, there are far better cards to use for the mana you'll have at that time.
You mise as well slap an indestructible on a kotr, and hold onto a natural affinity.
Warden is a horrible card. So you're playing an aggro/tempo deck and want to use a card that destroys tempo? Yes, pump all your mana into this guy turn after turn, right before I kill him and erase 3 of your turns.
That's not how it works. There are only 2 scenarios where Warden sees mana pumped into him in the early game:
1) You're simply getting mana flooded, at which point it's not a tempo loss anyway because you've got nothing else better to do - but at least it gives you SOMETHING. If they have a removal spell, you were going to lose anyway. If they don't, you get a decent body to beat down with.
2) You already have a good density of threats on board, suspect a sweeper incoming, and don't want to add more to the board. So either they waste a removal spell pre-sweeper or you just got added damage without having to add creatures to the board, giving you more options afterward.
What are the alternatives, Soldier of the Pantheon and Boros Elite? So I'm missing, what, a single point of damage on a swing in return for a card that is INFINITELY better, both in the scenarios described above and later in the game? It's a card that is decent in an opening hand, solid in the midgame and fantastic in the lategame, where most aggro decks completely fall over and have 0 chance of winning. I'm sacrificing very minimal damage on the front end to add a ton of resilience on the back end. It's not really much of a debate, tbh. You're acting like Warden FORCES you to spend mana. Nah, he's fine as another x/1 for 1 that gets pumped with a bunch of lords and effects and gets further pumped when the resources are available.
If you're using warden as a save for after a sweep, there are far better cards to use for the mana you'll have at that time.
Yeah, and they're all awful in an opening hand and slow the deck down way too much. The deck needs a very specific density of 1 drops and the other options are simply worse. Warden barely slows the deck down at all compared to the others, yet gives it a lot more late game play. It is a trade off, yes, but it is a very minimal downside for lots of upside. Is it the best early game card? No. Is it the best mid game card? No. Is it the best late game card? No. Is it the best Human 1 drop that helps strengthen a lot of the weakness of the deck while neatly slotting into the deck's core gameplan? Yes.
I like having cards in my deck that are good no matter the state of the game as opposed to only being good when things are already going my way. A card like Boros Elite looks better on paper, where you think "oh yeah, this deck should always be attacking with 3 creatures and never have too much mana!" But we live in a reality where removal spells are a thing, and games often don't go as planned. I want cards that are still good when the game isn't going my way. Warden does that. The other options at 1 cmc do not. If you notice, a lot of my 1 drops are that way. Inspector draws me a card while both Warden and Student threaten to get huge - those cards account for 10-11 of my 1 drops. Kytheon and Champion are the only 2 that aren't, but the upside on those cards is astronomically higher than something like Boros Elite.
Also, that point may still be arguable, since that simple "Trample" keyword has warped a lot of lategame scenarios where something like the card you mention below does not...
I took a look at the 4C lists that Craig Wescoe and Frank Lepore displayed earlier in the year and used those lists to help smoothen my mana. Removed 4 Dark Confidant for 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which further relieved color requirements. The black splash is now just for Anafenza, the Foremost which I am still very happy with. Some thoughts:
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is a REALLY good card. Unfortunately, I am TERRIBLE at using him properly. Several times last night, I either mistimed my loot or made incorrect looting decisions, which cost me games. Once I get better at that, the deck should perform much better. Either way, he does exactly what I wanted Dark Confidant and Eternal Witness to do in the original list, but without the life drain and without clogging up the 3 cmc slot, opening the door for a maindeck Reflector Mage. Definitely going to be staying in the deck for now.
- Considering the deck is 5 color, I think the mana was decently smooth. Obviously, anything over 3 color is going to be awkward at times, but it wasn't as bad as I expected. I punted a few times with my fetches, but for the most part, I had the colors I needed when I needed them. A 22nd land may be necessary though.
- It's nice to have Thalia, Guardian of Thraben back in the main. Clogging the opponent's mana always proves to be valuable.
- I really miss Thoughtseize out of the side. Stubborn Denial is nice, but I prefer the proactiveness of Thoughtseize. The mana just can't support it though. I'm thinking Negate will be better for what I need.
- Is Lightning Bolt too taxing on color requirements? If so, what replaces it? Is it simply a good enough card to take the occasional lumps?
- Mantis Rider is fantastic. I think running the full sets of Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia's Lieutenant is extra important, since they both protect Rider from bolt effects.
- Anafenza, the Foremost is still an important card for the deck. In order to play against the grindier bolt decks, we need some number of creatures that can stand on their own against them. In one of the games against the Grixis deck, you'll see a situation where Anafenza would have been an easy slam, but instead I had only my other 3 drops available and it was really awkward. That was a perfect example of why Anafenza needs to be in the deck. Also, she was able to close out games far more quickly than other 3 drops options (outside of Mantis Rider) would.
- I punted quite a bit last night. Bad sideboarding, bad looting, bad fetching etc. 3-2 is definitely not representative of the deck's power.
- I got to swing with a 4/6 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in one game. That was fun
Overall, the deck is definitely moving in the direction I want it. It can have draws that kill on turn 4 and it can also go toe to toe with the grindier decks. That's the type of deck I like to play and I will certainly continue to fine tune it.
I have played abzan company, abzan aristocrats and kiki-chord for the past year. Ever since the printing of thalia's lieutenant I wanted to make a human deck. First of all I love all the different deck ideas. I tried Headminerva's 4C deck and it feels very powerful. However I do not own 4 cavern of souls and even though I always want to make my decks as competitive as possible I'm unwilling to trade for them at their current price point (hoping for a reprint this spring). I still want to try out humans for the next few months. Without caverns 4C or 5C is of the table but 2c humans is easily doable, only giving away a few percentage points against blue decks.
Welcome to the party! Definitely make Cavern of Souls a priority if you plan on playing tribal strategies in the long term; just slowly trade for 1 at a time.
Thanks Kingcars for the link to your stream, it was nice to see a 5c version in action. Even with 4 caverns I felt the manabase was really struggling though. I really like the look of your g/w aggro build, it looks very consistent. I will try it out in the future, warden of the first tree looks good and with such a low curve I like gather the townsfolk over collected company.
Yeah, the only truly awful mana moments were caused by my fetch punts, though hahaha. So I don't really want to blame the deck for that. Anything over 3 color is going to have occasional awkwardness though. The GW deck is super solid and I highly recommend it. If you're stuck with a 2 color manabase for now, I think it's going to be your best bet. More on that in a moment.
I'm still in love with company though. That combined with my restriction to 2C decks (which might be better anyway since blood moon is rampant in my meta and I feel 4/5C decks suffer from awkward mana) lead me to this:
Pro's
- smooth manabase
- acces to mutavault
- maindeck thalia's offer effective maindeck hate vs certain decks.
- Clues, canopy, mutavault, collected company, and both thalia's make the deck more resilient to mass removal/slow down removal.
- Hierarch in to thalia, heretic cathar is sweet.
Con's
- Slower than a lower curve g/w aggro humans.
- weaker three drops in green/white (no mantis rider hurts).
- no acces to bolt/ no flyers --> less reach.
- no acces to blue/red/black sideboard cards.
Any thoughts? (Yes I know it needs 4 caverns :p) Side board is still all over the place.
I think the problem with 2 color is that you don't have the 3cmc haymakers required to make Collected Company the bomb it needs to be. Thalia is solid, but Fiend Hunter is very subpar and will lead to bad tempo swings when the opponent removes it. Unless you're able to run some combination of Mantis Rider (most important)/Reflector Mage/Anafenza, the Foremost/Lyev Skyknight/Eternal Witness, I don't think it's a good idea to run Collected Company. You've got the right core with Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor/Guardian - I'd recommend going for something like the straight up GW aggro build you mentioned earlier.
Without good 3-drops (Fiend Hunter isn't good and Thalia, Heretic Cathar is good but isn't enough and should be 2x-of at most)
I see no point in running Collected Company, wasting the spell on 1-drops and 2-drops is not mana efficient and gains nothing.
Welcome to the thread! Your decklist looks solid. I think fitting in Atarka's Command would be fantastic with how wide the deck goes. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a great card but can't be hit off of Burning-Tree Emissary. That's one of the issues I had with BTE builds - they force (well...strongly point) you down a GR path when the best humans are mostly in white.
The more I think about it , it seems that "Humans" is just weaker "Allies" deck.
Most of the good Allies are Humans anyway and they have much better synergy with each other and grow bigger so just playing "Champion
+ Lieutenant + Allies" seems like the more competitive option.
I don't agree that Humans are weaker Allies: while there's a bit less synergy and growth potential, Humans have individually stronger cards. Ally-humans should goldfish well and do better against some linear decks but they'll perform worse against interactive decks where you have more trouble getting things to stick to the board long enough to grow. I would rather topdeck a Mantis Rider, Lyev Skyknight, Voltaic Brawler etc. which are individually strong, evasive threats, rather than a lone Ally. Humans also have a much wider pool of cards for sideboarding. Lastly, that two-drop-centric curve is probably better off without CoCo (possibly with Vial).
Have someone considered Eerie interlude, at least as a side card, i think it works well against sweapers and if you use the ally that gains life for each other, or the ally taht gives haste with the Akoum Battlesinger might be pretty strong
I don't agree that Humans are weaker Allies: while there's a bit less synergy and growth potential, Humans have individually stronger cards. Ally-humans should goldfish well and do better against some linear decks but they'll perform worse against interactive decks where you have more trouble getting things to stick to the board long enough to grow. I would rather topdeck a Mantis Rider, Lyev Skyknight, Voltaic Brawler etc. which are individually strong, evasive threats, rather than a lone Ally. Humans also have a much wider pool of cards for sideboarding. Lastly, that two-drop-centric curve is probably better off without CoCo (possibly with Vial).
If you want to play individually strong cards I don't think that "Humans Tribal" is the deck for it.
Those cards you mentioned aren't "really" that good on their own (like creatures in midrange decks like: "Jund"/"Abzan"/"Bant Eldrazi" or "Bant Knightfall") and are rather easy to answer/contain.
The real power of these kind of tribal decks is the synergy and "Generic Humans" don't have enough of it compared to Allies, also running a 4c manabase without the help of something like Ally Encampment isn't helping.
A "Humans deck" suffers the same against removal/disruption heavy decks but has (much) less explosive potential to close the game quickly (and these decks aren't really built for the long game anyway) with creatures that go out of control and they also don't have anything that can grant mass evasion/protection like Kabira Evangel.
For Allies the more triggers the better so getting 2-creatures at once is very good.
And you can SB the same cards you do with your humans deck.
If you want to play individually strong cards I don't think that "Humans Tribal" is the deck for it.
Those cards you mentioned aren't "really" that good on their own (like creatures in midrange decks like: "Jund"/"Abzan"/"Bant Eldrazi" or "Bant Knightfall") and are rather easy to answer/contain.
I don't think it's quite that straight forward. In Humans, you've got cards like Mantis Rider, Anafenza, the Foremost, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Eternal Witness and Reflector Mage and several others which are not only good cards on their own, but also synergistic with the Humans theme where they are likely to grow larger and grow the creatures around them. These creatures provide evasion, card advantage and interaction without external help and do so while still progressing the core gameplan. They are not the best individual cards in a vacuum (though I'd argue, in some cases, not far from the top), but in a deck built to take full advantage of them, they are very good. With the Allies list like you posted, all of the creatures are absolutely useless without backup and a large board presence, and there is zero tacked on utility for them outside of getting on the beatdown plan. They are more explosive, sure, but also far more likely to falter. The Humans deck is slightly less explosive early, but more consistent and more resilient.
As for closing speed, I haven't had any issues. Heck, I had a game last night where I didn't play a creature till turn 3 and had them dead on turn 5 (they didn't do damage to themselves either - full 20 damage was done). When this deck turns the corner, it closes things out. As someone who plays a lot of Naya Company in paper, which is basically just a "good stuff" creature deck in a similar vain to some of the decks you mentioned, I can tell you that my 5C Humans list feels more powerful overall and is putting up better results in the wider MTGO meta. I did a pretty thorough comparison a few posts back with my previous 5C build and most of the arguments stand with the newer build.
The real power of these kind of tribal decks is the synergy and "Generic Humans" don't have enough of it compared to Allies, also running a 4c manabase without the help of something like Ally Encampment isn't helping.
You're right, Humans don't have as many creatures that trigger off each other. The Humans cards are more individually powerful than Allies. It's a trade off like anything else. I do agree, though, that an Ally Encampment-esque card is something Humans could really use. Fingers crossed!
A "Humans deck" suffers the same against removal/disruption heavy decks but has (much) less explosive potential to close the game quickly (and these decks aren't really built for the long game anyway) with creatures that go out of control and they also don't have anything that can grant mass evasion/protection like Kabira Evangel.
The Humans deck has cards with built in evasion and more built in toughness than the Allies deck. I can tell you from experience with the non-CoCo aggro versions of the Humans deck that things can fall apart quickly if the opponent stays out in front of your +1/+1 counters with things like Izzet Staticaster and Electrolyze. The Allies deck would have that same issue, and maybe even worse - almost every single creature in there is an x/1, there's no way to get to CoCo early like the humans CoCo list, and the curve is slower than an aggro Humans build so it has less of a chance of getting out front before the 1 damage spread removal comes down. A CoCo humans deck can get to CoCo early and has creatures with proper toughness so cards like Izzet Staticaster are not a problem. Evasion is a lot less important in a deck with 4 hasty fliers and a myriad of ways to clear blockers.
You should try examining this card from multiple angles, and multiple perspectives.
You should try reading. Not only that, but the fact that you are trying to compare a card choice in a Collected Company deck to a card choice in a blitz aggro deck with 17 1 drops and 17 2 drops (including Gather the Townsfolk) is mind boggling, especially when you're trying to tell someone else to look at a card from multiple perspectives. If you took a few minutes to look over the decklists I have posted instead of making assumptions, you would see big differences between my CoCo lists and my blitz lists (spoiler: All of my blitz lists run a full playset of Warden of the First Tree).
It can be an aggro card in the right deck. CoCo Elves has the ability to play CoCo on T2 with a good draw. It has a ton of lethal alpha strike options in a wide variety of board states, even when the opponent has a lot of large blockers. The Melira CoCo deck can get an instant infinite combo. Both of the decks you mention are combo-ish in nature, in which they usually just win on the spot with the right hits - they also don't need interaction for this reason. The 4C Humans list does not do those things (or, at least, requires very specific board states and very specific draws) and does not have the same power level as those decks. There's not much of a comparison to be made here. I'll get back to the Gather the Townsfolk comparison in a moment.
Obviously I understand that in your list, you'd want to play CoCo on the main phase - I even mentioned that with my 5C list, it's sometimes a good idea to cast it main phase for a lethal Mantis Rider. I just think that's an awful reason to play CoCo. The reason to play CoCo over a blitz deck, in my opinion, is to have better play against sweeper control decks and grindy midrange decks. All you're doing is slowing your curve down while still making your deck just fold to Anger of the Gods or some other wrath. I'd much rather play a blitz deck with built in card advantage/resilience over a slower CoCo deck that folds to the same cards and doesn't kill as fast as consistently.
I will mention here that I do know you can still EOT CoCo to get around sweepers, but the sweeper matchups are exactly where your creatures are bad. A deck that runs Anger isn't going to care that you just got a vanilla 2/2, a 3/1 vanilla Flyer or a vanilla 3/2. Sure, Kytheon and Brawler would be decent hits, but you're still in a spot where you want a very specific draw (Rider) in order to flip Kytheon - otherwise, yea, you may get a big damage hit in, but they'll just deal with them on their next turn. Put my 5C deck in that scenario: EOT CoCo, get a 2/1 that immediately draws a card on upkeep, a 4/4 that's hard to burn off the table or a 2/1 that gets my CoCo back. I'm swinging for the same types of damage while having way more resilience and card advantage behind it. (for obvious reasons, I'm not mentioning Mantis Rider or the other creatures that we both run - since we both run them, there isn't much comparison to be made).
Also, a sorcery speed Collected Company that gets two weak Humans feels an awful lot like....a Gather the Townsfolk. Funny enough, in a properly built blitz deck, the Gather tokens are going to be bigger than whatever creatures you end up hitting off of CoCo by the time you get to cast CoCo; not only that, but they're already on the battlefield by that point and have multiple swings in. Heck, sometimes Gather can get FIVE Humans!! So yeah, I'll keep the comparison alive and well .
Funny you mention Mauler, I was going to recommend Emissary in that list instead cause it's a killer card. Good call there.
Great, turn 2 Lyev Skyknight. Your opponent goes Bolt pass. It doesn't have the haste of Mantis Rider nor the toughness of Anafenza, the Foremost, so it just literally did nothing and died to the most common removal spell at sorcery speed. You are right, it is good to have flyers on turn 2, hence why we are both running Mantis Rider, but you need more than just that in modern. It's not even a good blocker at 1 toughness, and is a great 3 mana target for Electrolyze - in that case, you lose your Noble and your 3 drop in 1 swoop. So much downside, with upside that requires such specific scenarios to matter.
To the contrary, Spell Queller is a beast because it hits almost every spell in the format, which is most certainly worth the occasional "brick." Not only that, but it's a better blocker and it has natural flash. I don't see the comparison there. It is a far better card than Lyev Skyknight. Between this comparison and the one with Elves and Melira combo, I feel like you're justifying your choices through comparisons with things that are far more powerful and not actually very comparable. Since I have already explained why these comparisons are bad and you "asked" about how I build my lists, lets look at some comparisons I have made while building my 5C list. As I have mentioned in an earlier post, I've been playing Naya Company for the past year or so - a deck that has seen top 8 success at the pro level. Before I decided to build my 5C deck by getting rid of my Naya cards (in MTGO), I wanted to make sure I would be at a similar power level. So lets see:
Wild Nacatl vs Champion of the Parish - Both are 1 drops that are easily 3/3s. Champion has HUGE, consistent upside of getting much larger than 3/3. There is the rare circumstance where he isn't bigger than 3/3, but certainly not often enough to not give the nod to Champ here.
Tarmogoyf vs Dark Confidant - Card advantage on a stick vs effective beater. With all the graveyard hate in the format, goyf can sometimes feel bad. Bob's life drain also comes into play every once in a while. Both scenarios are pretty evenly rare, so it's a wash. Bob plays really well with the rest of the deck, and similar to goyf, can sometimes get in some good beats while providing card advantage still. I want to give the nudge to Bob here due to card advantage, but he is more vulnerable to removal and worse against aggro, so it's really close and I can see arguments either way.
Knight of the Reliquary vs Mantis Rider - Knight is usually a 4/4, but sometimes is just a 2/2 or 3/3. Rider is always a 3/3 and can often be a 4/4 with any one of several cards alongside it. Rider has evasion, while Knight heavily relies on Kessig Wolf Run (I ran a 1 of Elspeth, Knight-Errant for this reason. That card is amazing). Rider has vigilance, which is great against aggro. Rider can block flyers. Rider has haste, so can get damage in before getting hit at sorcery speed. Knight, like goyf, can sometimes be hit with graveyard hate and just be a 2/2. Pretty easy win for Rider.
Loxodon Smiter vs Anafenza, the Foremost - Smiter can't be countered, but Anafenza is in a deck with 4 Cavern of Souls (I went up to 4 since my last post). Anafenza makes other creatures bigger. Anafenza provides psuedo graveyard hate. Smiter isn't legendary and is lots of fun against discard effects. Another even match, but I think Anafenza gets this one too.
Obviously, cards like Thalia's Lieutenant and Mayor of Avabruck aren't as good in a vacuum against cards like Voice of Resurgence and Scavenging Ooze, but in a deck that runs 27 human creatures, they're not terribly far behind. The 5C deck has major upsides like Cavern of Souls, Abrupt Decay and Thoughtseize while still running bolt and path. Both mana bases are painful, but the Naya one is obviously smoother. So, while there are upsides and downsides to both, the overall power level is directly comparable in a vacuum. In practice, I find the Humans deck to be generally more powerful - it's better at aggro'ing people out thanks to Champion of the Parish and Mantis Rider, better in grindy matchups thanks to Dark Confidant in the main and better at disrupting combos/expensive spell decks thanks to Thoughtseize.
So if I'm understanding this correctly, this build:
- Has few ways to get around Tarmogoyf
- Has a very hard time getting goyf off the battlefield permanently
- The creatures that CAN get around goyf die to Lightning Bolt and any other burn spell
FeelsBadMan
As for Anafenza, the Foremost - my deck runs 4 Path to Exile, 2 Abrupt Decay and 12 creatures that make her bigger on attacks. Big blockers are not an issue - either they die immediately or Anafenza gets way too big. Not only that, but she helps stop/slow down the myriad of decks that want creatures in their graveyards while also being far more resistant to Anger of the Gods and other burn spells. The 4C list is full of creatures that need a lot more help to get through blockers while having far fewer, slower, more expensive, purely temporary ways to clear them out. And if Anafenza gets a chance to attack, she makes my team bigger (though I will mention the sad nombo with Mantis Rider boo. Far from a deal breaker, though - if I'm swinging with those 2, life is good). That's a whole lot more than what Reflector Mage and Lyev Skyknight do in a maindeck configuration.
I disagree. A blitz human deck can be built to have lots of resilience, and it runs over other aggro lists. Yes, it is very slightly less explosive than other aggro decks, but it does have upsides - the creatures get wider and bigger than other aggro decks, it's super consistent, has more card advantage, has maindeck cards that gain life etc. Cards like Warden of the First Tree, Thraben Inspector and Student of Warfare are great in the lategame. Kytheon, Hero of Akros is easy to flip. Luckily for the blitz deck, however, games rarely run past turn 5.
The thing is, I do not see what the 4C list is doing better than a well rounded blitz list when it comes to aggression and I don't see what it's doing better than a black splash list when it comes to midrange. It feels like the worst of both worlds - lots of weak creatures that all die to popular red spells while having interaction that's too narrow. Sure, you can "refill" with a hasty Collected Company, but the blitz deck is going to have already done more damage while most likely leaving behind some clue tokens, or if properly playing around a sweeper, a backup threat like Warden of the First Tree. The 5C list is going to EOT CoCo, hit Bob and Anafenza/Mantis Rider/Witness/etc and refill even quicker and draw into more generically powerful spells. No matter which way you look at it, it's not doing anything better than a properly specialized list.
Except you get a LOT more from black than just Anafenza. Abupt Decay and Thoughtseize are both great at picking up the deck's weak spots. I still don't see how Reflector Mage main deck is considered a better splash when it just dies to bolt/anger and doesn't actually do anything in a good number of matchups. Sure, you may argue that Path to Exile is also sometimes a dead card, which is true, but it is so important in so many matchups that it is worth the slots. Reflector Mage is not; it's also not instant speed on its own and it costs 3 mana.
I'm sure it's a fantastic card in some specific scenarios. I just feel like there are far more consistent, cost efficient ways to achieve the same effect in modern. In any of those scenarios you mentioned, it sounds like Path to Exile would have done the same thing. Path to Exile also clears big blockers permanently, stops combo etc. For 1 mana. At instant speed. I do agree that Reflector, Fiend and Banisher are also terrible maindeck cards. I currently run 2 Reflector Mage in the side for some extra tempo in creature matchups (specifically Eldrazi...but idk if the deck really needs that much help in that matchup), but I wouldn't run it maindeck.
With all of that said, I think your build has a LOT of potential as a Naya blitz deck. T1 Champion of the Parish into something like T2 Burning-Tree Emissary -> Grim Lavamancer + Warden of the First Tree or Voltaic Brawler sounds like a lot of fun. Swing with a 3/3 or 4/4 Champ on T2, play a lord on T3, hit for a bazillion. Opponent is dead without a sweeper or a string of spot removal. Run some copies of Atarka's Command. Game over. (obviously this is a bit Christmas land-ish, but just for example). Playing CoCo and stuff like Reflector Mage feels way to slow - just pump the deck full of killer Emissary hits, some bolts and commands and go to town. You already somewhat have that aggro potential - just maximize the chances of it instead of getting slow and fancy. Who needs to play around sweepers when you deal a ton of damage before sweepers can be cast, then have a bunch of burn spells behind it? Who needs to worry about Tarmogoyf when you're swinging with an army of expendable 3/3s and 4/4s with burn spells?
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Warden of the First Tree
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
20 Land
EDIT: I just watched the ChannelFireball series with the 5C humans deck. I think Lightning Mauler is a very important card for adding explosiveness to any humans aggro deck that runs red. Lyev Skyknight and Reflector Mage seem like good hits once you have an opponent down to almost-lethal on board, which a low slung aggro deck is good at. This is kinda why I don't like them in a slower Collected Company build (which are also builds without Lightning Mauler), because in one of the games, they really needed to be able to permanently remove a few creatures when all they could do was bounce/disable them. A build with 4 mana spells and less explosive starts needs better interaction, because those scenarios are bound to happen more often.
11% Jund/Junk
10% URx control
9% Infect
9% Eldrazi
7% Dredge
7% Affinity
7% Tron
6% Burn/Zoo
Skyknight and Path aren't really competing for slots in the 4C list, they are at different points on the curve and not mutually exclusive. In the 1-drop slot we've already allotted space for 4x removal spells and I'm neutral on Path vs Bolt. Path will be better against Eldrazi and Dredge but I think you could make a case for Bolt for clock speed and PW interaction against Jund & Tron (Path obviously helps against fatties there, too). I would prefer Bolt for Infect, Affinity, Burn, and probably URx. Overall having as much interaction as possible without diluting CoCo-hits will help with Infect so the combination of Lavamancer, Bolt, Helix, and Skyknight in the main and Blessed Alliance in the side are great.
Outside of some ultra grindy Grixis matchups I personally haven't played many games where I wasn't satisfied with the card advantage afforded by CoCo + 2x Witness + Horizon Canopy. Jund seems like a realistically winnable matchup and those top 4 aggro matchups are going to go really fast. In the quick, relatively linear global meta the raw explosive power offered by BTE + Brawler has been more useful in the 2-drop slot than Bob for me and all the life that's saved has certainly helped the burn matchup as well.
Aside: It's difficult to lightly splash black, too: If you want to cast Thoughtseize reliably on T1 you need to run ~14 sources of black without Cavern (and no help from Hierarch) so you probably need to go to a rainbow land configuration with City of Brass etc.
Regarding Skyknight vs Anafenza: I would prefer Anafenza for Dredge and possibly Tron + URx, but I would prefer Skyknight for the rest. If I could splash black without too much pain I might run 1x Anafenza in the side for my list.
And you are correct that the WGRu list isn't as fast as the Blitz decks or as grindy as the 5c lists. It is built more as a tempo deck trying to hit a sweet spot between the two, and has a lot of flexible lines of play and varried post-board configurations. IMO it's the best option online or for an unknown meta, but it's not hard to imagine metas where emphasizing black over blue might make sense.
Fair assessments; can't really argue. You're right about the mana base; my build is really struggling with it. Honestly, I'm still having the most success with the straight up GW aggro build. It runs smooth, consistent and fast. It has solid resilience in the mid and late game, especially for a 1 and 2 drop deck. It's not fancy, it just wins games. I really want the 5C build to work but it just hurts haha. I feel like the creature base is right where I want it, but it may just be too taxing on colors.
As for the Thoughtseize issue, it's not a card I want to cast on turn 1 anyway, so that wasn't a concern when building the deck. It's a card I want to cast on turn 3 and later to snipe cards I care about.
Coco is an aggro card in the Human shell, because the creatures you play are aggro. Put 2 Thalia's Lieutenant, Mantis Rider or Lyev Skyknight (or any combination of those cards) on the board in one single Coco and you'll revise your perception of the card. You see it as slow because you're still in the process of trying fast versions and slowly try to play a third colour. I've been through this too, and now I'm telling you the Coco version is superior in my testing, and more competitive than the other versions I saw in this topic. I would even say we're not here to debate who has the biggest one, but how to improve each variant. Show me an Abzan list that is good, that's all I want to see.
You don't like Lyev because you haven't played the card -and I would speculate- the archetype long enough to see how it functions, and what it needs to win. I'm not saying Ana is bad, but that she's not worth the black splash alone, and Lyev doesn't envy her stats. But this you won't notice because you'll never play Lyev. So be it.
Queller is played in a tempo shell, where it dies to Bolt, Lili, has less offensive power and is there to interact with the opponent's position. They're very comparable in their differences and similarities. No crime intended.
Yes, you're right here. But they're reactive cards, and don't help you win. They help you not lose. Which is something fine in a maindeck, but not the vision we have of a usual aggro deck.
Also, the fact black offers some tools doesn't mean blue doesn't offer similar tools (counterspells, removal spells, silver bullets). So since you find in blue what you have in black, one of the only cards worth the black splash for it's unique offensive angle is Ana.
Because once again, you haven't played the archetype enough. If you want to dismiss a list with some arguments, at least try it before. You have to understand one of the big flaw of a blitz version : it has no massive evasion.
Elves has Ezuri and Shaman, Merfolk has Islandwalk, Affi has flying. Mono white Humans has Brave the Elements, great... 4C Coco has flying, Trample, and Burn to the face. It has the best 3-drop amongst all variants too.
I'm just defending this shell because, amongst all I've tried, the Coco shell gives me the best results by a big margin, over months of testing (since Lieutenant printing). What about you and the different variants you've been testing ? How long have you been playing the one that please you most ?
No. Path isn't as good as a tempo effect on a 3/1 flyer. And it's fantastic in a vacuum, not in some scenarios. Overall mate, don't debate a card you never played with, because it ain't gonna lead nowhere. Personally, and you can read the topic to check it out, I tried cards that I believed in and eventually dismissed them myself, hearing the other players' feedback and impressions, hopeful or not. Lightning Mauler, Smuggler's Copter, Mayor of Avabruck, Hanweir Garrison, etc... all these cards I love, but they don't fit very well in a 4C Coco shell. Lyev ain't in that category. I wish it would, because everybody thinks this card is trash, but I can't dismiss a card that works in the archetype !
4 dark confidant
2 snapcaster mage
2 tasigur, the golden fang
4 young pyromancer
4 abrupt decay
4 lightning bolt
4 path to exile
3 spell pierce
4 serum visions
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 cavern of souls
4 city of brass
4 mana confluence
4 reflecting pool
1 tendo ice bridge
4 gemstone mine
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
It looks like a less consistent version of "Grixis Delver" imho.
Tasigur seems rather bad here without enablers like fetch lands and Thought Scour and more cantrips (also for Delver).
Also what was your experience with Selfless Spirit, especially against sweepers? Obviously it's an evasive, CoCo-compatible threat that keeps your main-phased, proactive beatdown plan intact, although it's a more narrow card than Negate or Mana Leak.
This deck runs a lot of spells, Delver nearly always hard flips in my testing.
The deck only runs two brass lands, it actually takes less damage then a tri-colored deck over the course of a game (I tested that one quite thoroughly) which is why I no longer use Death's Shadow or timely reinforcements. I tested each of those in the main before I discovered that my opponent's actually took more damage then me from their lands, and I almost never fell behind on health. Death's Shadow seemed like a better Tarmogoyf in the deck at first, but it simply doesn't hurt itself enough, even when I had thoughtseize instead of inquisition of kozilek.
The big advantage of the deck is that it can hit 5 colors effortlessly. It runs abrupt decay, path to exile, and lightning bolt without hiccuping, and can side in anything in the game, no matter how odd the casting cost. It can hit turn 3 Anger of the Gods reliably, Supreme Verdict on four if the meta gets bigger, etc. I have gone back and forth on lingering souls in the deck, because it offers huge advantage but feels redundant with young pyromancer.
UB Wight Phantasm
RB Burn
UR Faerie Rites of Initiation
Legacy:
R Burn
CG-Post
I was going to type another lengthy reply, but I'm not even gonna bother. You've been extremely defensive from the moment I started asking questions/providing opinion and you seem to think that because I haven't been posting in this thread until a few days ago that it must mean I haven't touched a Humans deck or a Coco deck or cards that have been around since RTR. My first post in here even laid out several different builds I have tried - which, by the way, are not all the ones I have attempted, but the only ones that had some actual success - and I have posted several more different builds since then. We obviously have different deck building styles and different goals we want to achieve, therefore our card preferences are going to be different. I'm not taking jabs at you or questioning your experience because you aren't running cards that I have found to be great, yet that's what I'm getting in return. I simply pointed out things I didn't like and why I didn't like them. You came at me questioning my play skill and experience instead of addressing the arguments I was presenting. So, until you want to have a civil discussion without assumptions or passive-aggressive quips, I'm going to direct my attention elsewhere.
In other news, I've been fine tuning my GW Aggro and Abzan Aggro builds. Specifically, the sideboards and mana bases have been the main focus points in both builds. I continue to be pleased with the consistency, speed and resilience. The 1 drops continue to provide absurd value on a regular basis and the general creature sets feel great. Both builds are consistently beating many of the more popular decks, like Eldrazi Tron, Burn and Affinity. First, the decklists, then some thoughts:
Green/White Aggro
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Student of Warfare
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Hamlet Captain
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Path to Exile
2 Blossoming Defense
Lands
2 Temple Garden
4 Sunpetal Grove
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
3 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Auriok Champion
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Rest in Peace
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Natural State
2 Selfless Spirit
Abzan Aggro
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Warden of the First Tree
4 Thraben Inspector
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2 Student of Warfare
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Hamlet Captain
4 Dark Confidant
Spells (10)
4 Path to Exile
4 Gather the Townsfolk
2 Blossoming Defense
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Godless Shrine
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Auriok Champion
4 Thoughtseize
3 Rest in Peace
2 Natural State
2 Kataki, War's Wage
Warden of the First Tree is a card I firmly believe needs to be in any GW based, non-CoCo aggressive humans build. It is fine in the early game as an extra 1 drop to trigger with Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant, but where it really shines is in the mid and late game. The problem I have found with aggro decks in general (the mono white build suffered badly from this) is that mana flooding was always an instant death sentence. The deck could never use extra mana to advance its board state or move towards a relevant later game threat. Student of Warfare was the closest thing, but it wasn't quite enough on its own. Warden of the First Tree does all of those things. He's easily a 4/4 in this deck with the ability to gain lifelink, and the biggest part, trample. This card has beaten BW tokens in the late game, even after two-in-a-row top decked Spectral Procession backed with an Intangible Virtue from earlier in the game. He's beaten UW control decks that empty out all their resources dealing with my board while I held him in my hand as the post-sweeper follow up. The list goes on, but decks like my GW and Abzan Aggro builds gain a lot of consistency and resilience from a card that provides a mana sink and becomes an 8/8 trample lifelink at a stage in the game where most modern decks are out of gas. Being able to turn 1 drop weenies into lategame gas without special help is huge game for aggro decks that generally suffer from a lack of resilience.
Blossoming Defense continues to earn its keep, fulfilling a very important protection role. It is especially punishing when an opponent has no blockers and tries to rely on a removal spell, but instead gets smacked in the face for 2 extra damage. It is a key ingredient to the Warden of the First Tree lategame strategy and does a great job of protecting Dark Confidant in the Abzan build.
Selfless Spirit is the newest addition to the GW build. Haven't gotten to try it out yet, but I look forward to it and will report back with results.
Dark Confidant has been growing on me in the Abzan build. I'm still not completely behind him, but it feels so good to be able to keep the tank fueled up in an aggro deck. The best part is that I never have to worry about losing more than 2 life! Usually it's 1 or 0. For most people trying to use him in an aggro build, speed loss is an issue, but all I took out for Bob was 1 Student of Warfare, 1 Hamlet Captain and 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - so the actual clock hasn't been affected much at all. 99% of the time, I prefer having Bob over any of those other cards. I may drop to 3 since he can be bad in multiples and add back either a Hamlet Captain to bump the clock up or a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben for disruption, but that's about it.
The other card obtained from the black splash is Thoughtseize. I generally cast it between turns 2-4 to either clear a path or find out whether or not I can put the pedal down. In the matchups where it is needed, it is very much welcome. There's nothing quite as fun as sniping the one Ghostly Prison my opponent was relying on in their opening hand then continuing to hit them in the face before they find another answer. If you notice, the difference in the two sideboards are 2 Selfless Spirit and 2 Gaddock Teeg vs 4 Thoughtseize. The cards I want to snipe with Thoughtseize are the cards I am trying to stop with Teeg and Spirit (sweepers, big planeswalkers, etc). The obvious upside is that Thoughtseize is far more generic, so it covers both bases and then some, and is cheaper to cast.
Natural State feels like a great sideboard option over Sundering Growth. The extra mana cost, especially being colored, is often a killer with Growth. Especially early in a game where the deck really needs to get out in front, it is very important to make the most of the mana available. Last night, I was up against some type of UBx Smuggler's Copter deck - Game 2, Turn 3 - my lands were two Cavern of Souls and one Horizon Canopy. I had a couple of creatures on board and needed to get rid of his Copter, which he was did a great job of protecting with counter magic in game 1. He was tapped out so I took the chance to kill it with Natural State, cast Mayor of Avabruck and swing for a good chunk of damage. Obviously this isn't an example of wrecking a T1 strategy, but it's certainly a proof of concept. That type of tempo swing is exactly what the deck needs, especially when faced with pesky artifacts and enchantments. And only needing a single green is also relevant in a deck with 4 Cavern of Souls. The only potential downside is that it's more likely to be blanked by Chalice of the Void.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant is my sideboard tech for grindy midrange matchups. In my previous experience with other white weenie decks, this is by far the most consistent, hard hitting and hard to deal with card for the decks I need help against. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar could fill this slot as well, but doing so runs the risk of conflicting with a flipped Kytheon, Hero of Akros.
Watching opponents bring in Chalice of the Void is pretty hilarious. This is one of the many reasons to max out on Cavern of Souls. Chalice gets 95% nullified.
Overall, I think I'm leaning ever-so-slightly towards the Abzan version due to the minor bump in overall power level.
I took a break from the CoCo builds to further refine the aggro versions, which are proving to be both fun and solidly competitive. In the meantime, I have been doing some research on the 4C CoCo decks covered by Frank Lepore and Craig Wescoe earlier in the year and plan to take another crack at a CoCo build soon.
Lately I started playing it and it seems pretty good though I'm still not sure what the optimal build is.
Here is where I'm currently at:
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x Warden of the First Tree
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Mayor of Avabruck
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
Instant (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (4)
4x Gather the Townsfolk
4x Cavern of Souls
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Razorverge Thicket
1x Copperline Gorge
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Repel the Abominable
4x Lightning Helix
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Wear // Tear
#After some testing with heavier burn focus I found Boros Charm and Lightning Helix underwhelming in the maindeck so I went back to PtE and moved Lightning Helix to the SB and cut Boros Charm out entirely.
#Another card I tried and wasn't impressed by at all is Lightning Mauler, without a turn 2 combo with Burning-Tree Emissary it seemed bad and I would literally prefer any other 1/2-drop in the deck so I replaced him with: 2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros and 2x Grim Lavamancer (with less burn in the deck he provides reach).
#I am still unsure what is the best 1-drop alongside Champion of the Parish and I'm testing the recommended Warden of the First Tree which is less powerful than Student of Warfare but easier on the mana to pump up and can do it at instant speed.
Other options are:
Monastery Swiftspear (the haste is good, especially with Kytheon, but prowess doesn't trigger that much with 12 spells),
Soldier of the Pantheon (the pro-multicolor might be relevant but probably not often enough)
and Experiment One (usually will be 3/3 tops in the deck).
#I'm also not sure whether Gather the Townsfolk should be replaced with Hanweir Garrison which might produce more tokens.
At the same time I experimented with Swiftspear + Manamorphose. The thought here was that (1) we'd get a prowess-triggering cantrip for Swiftspear / a Surge triggering cantrip for Bushwhacker, which also (2) increased the effective density of the deck's good cards while (3) filtering BTE's RG into something compatible with more casting costs including white. The total spell package was 4x Bolt, 4x Manamorphose, 3x Mutagenic Growth, 2 Atarka's Command / Temur Battlerage. Gather the Townsfolk might be an option, too. I tended to like Temur Battlerage over Atarka's Command, as it synergizes with Mutagenic Growth and gives the deck a means of evasion. And although it's not technically a spell, I also considered playing with Simian Spirit Guide for another source of speed. Oath of Nissa gave more consistency in exchange for less explosiveness.
The overall results were occasionally good, but they tended to increase the inconsistency of what is already a rather inconsistent deck. Obviously Manamorphose makes choosing whether to mull harder, which is a strong downside when the deck is so reliant on getting a good start and maintaining momentum for the first couple turns. Swiftspear was a 2/3 on average (Lords aside), but was sometimes stuck at home as a 1/2 or was more capable as a 3/4. I would consider 12 spells an absolute minimum for even bothering with Swiftspear. 13 was better but still not great – IMO it put her on the power level of the other second-rate 1-drops, Soldier of the Pantheon / Boros Elite / Thraben Inspector, rather than elevating her to "obvious pick". Kytheon is better than all of those in a Blitz deck, though, so I'd strongly recommend running three copies of him. Experiment One really needs at least eight creatures entering with 3 power or toughness to be worthwhile, and even with that he can be a lousy topdeck.
In the end I just couldn't get the consistency to the level I wanted and I just wasn't totally happy with any of the 1-drops so I put it on the backburner.
I'm divided on Warden of the First Tree. It's definitely a great 1-drop for grindy games, but I'm not sure that it belongs in the *mainboard* of a Naya Blitz deck, where I really want to be tuned for maximum linear clock speed game one. The deck's mana is usually fully utilized by just throwing down creatures for the first 3-4 turns, and if the deck hasn't won by then there's a good chance it's not going to. I could definitely imagine having at least 3x in the SB to bring in for grindier matchups, though.
Overall, in my admittedly limited testing with a Naya Blitz build, it was too inconsistent and not resilient enough for my liking. For every super explosive start, there were plenty of awkward ones. With the GW and Abzan versions, you don't get the chances of just exploding on turn 2, but what you do get is rock solid consistency and much better resilience if a game goes past turn 4, while still being able to put on heavy early pressure and potentially have the game locked up by turn 3/4.
Where: twitch.tv/kingcars
When: Around 7:30-8pm EST
If you're using warden as a save for after a sweep, there are far better cards to use for the mana you'll have at that time.
You mise as well slap an indestructible on a kotr, and hold onto a natural affinity.
That's not how it works. There are only 2 scenarios where Warden sees mana pumped into him in the early game:
1) You're simply getting mana flooded, at which point it's not a tempo loss anyway because you've got nothing else better to do - but at least it gives you SOMETHING. If they have a removal spell, you were going to lose anyway. If they don't, you get a decent body to beat down with.
2) You already have a good density of threats on board, suspect a sweeper incoming, and don't want to add more to the board. So either they waste a removal spell pre-sweeper or you just got added damage without having to add creatures to the board, giving you more options afterward.
What are the alternatives, Soldier of the Pantheon and Boros Elite? So I'm missing, what, a single point of damage on a swing in return for a card that is INFINITELY better, both in the scenarios described above and later in the game? It's a card that is decent in an opening hand, solid in the midgame and fantastic in the lategame, where most aggro decks completely fall over and have 0 chance of winning. I'm sacrificing very minimal damage on the front end to add a ton of resilience on the back end. It's not really much of a debate, tbh. You're acting like Warden FORCES you to spend mana. Nah, he's fine as another x/1 for 1 that gets pumped with a bunch of lords and effects and gets further pumped when the resources are available.
Yeah, and they're all awful in an opening hand and slow the deck down way too much. The deck needs a very specific density of 1 drops and the other options are simply worse. Warden barely slows the deck down at all compared to the others, yet gives it a lot more late game play. It is a trade off, yes, but it is a very minimal downside for lots of upside. Is it the best early game card? No. Is it the best mid game card? No. Is it the best late game card? No. Is it the best Human 1 drop that helps strengthen a lot of the weakness of the deck while neatly slotting into the deck's core gameplan? Yes.
I like having cards in my deck that are good no matter the state of the game as opposed to only being good when things are already going my way. A card like Boros Elite looks better on paper, where you think "oh yeah, this deck should always be attacking with 3 creatures and never have too much mana!" But we live in a reality where removal spells are a thing, and games often don't go as planned. I want cards that are still good when the game isn't going my way. Warden does that. The other options at 1 cmc do not. If you notice, a lot of my 1 drops are that way. Inspector draws me a card while both Warden and Student threaten to get huge - those cards account for 10-11 of my 1 drops. Kytheon and Champion are the only 2 that aren't, but the upside on those cards is astronomically higher than something like Boros Elite.
Also, that point may still be arguable, since that simple "Trample" keyword has warped a lot of lategame scenarios where something like the card you mention below does not...
I hope you're trolling here
Ended up going 3-2; could have easily been 4-1 had I not punted a few times. Before I say more, here's the list from last night:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mantis Rider
1 Reflector Mage
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Spells (11)
3 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Reflector Mage
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Auriok Champion
2 Natural State
1 War Priest of Thune
I took a look at the 4C lists that Craig Wescoe and Frank Lepore displayed earlier in the year and used those lists to help smoothen my mana. Removed 4 Dark Confidant for 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and 2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which further relieved color requirements. The black splash is now just for Anafenza, the Foremost which I am still very happy with. Some thoughts:
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy is a REALLY good card. Unfortunately, I am TERRIBLE at using him properly. Several times last night, I either mistimed my loot or made incorrect looting decisions, which cost me games. Once I get better at that, the deck should perform much better. Either way, he does exactly what I wanted Dark Confidant and Eternal Witness to do in the original list, but without the life drain and without clogging up the 3 cmc slot, opening the door for a maindeck Reflector Mage. Definitely going to be staying in the deck for now.
- Considering the deck is 5 color, I think the mana was decently smooth. Obviously, anything over 3 color is going to be awkward at times, but it wasn't as bad as I expected. I punted a few times with my fetches, but for the most part, I had the colors I needed when I needed them. A 22nd land may be necessary though.
- It's nice to have Thalia, Guardian of Thraben back in the main. Clogging the opponent's mana always proves to be valuable.
- I really miss Thoughtseize out of the side. Stubborn Denial is nice, but I prefer the proactiveness of Thoughtseize. The mana just can't support it though. I'm thinking Negate will be better for what I need.
- Is Lightning Bolt too taxing on color requirements? If so, what replaces it? Is it simply a good enough card to take the occasional lumps?
- Mantis Rider is fantastic. I think running the full sets of Mayor of Avabruck and Thalia's Lieutenant is extra important, since they both protect Rider from bolt effects.
- Anafenza, the Foremost is still an important card for the deck. In order to play against the grindier bolt decks, we need some number of creatures that can stand on their own against them. In one of the games against the Grixis deck, you'll see a situation where Anafenza would have been an easy slam, but instead I had only my other 3 drops available and it was really awkward. That was a perfect example of why Anafenza needs to be in the deck. Also, she was able to close out games far more quickly than other 3 drops options (outside of Mantis Rider) would.
- I punted quite a bit last night. Bad sideboarding, bad looting, bad fetching etc. 3-2 is definitely not representative of the deck's power.
- I got to swing with a 4/6 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in one game. That was fun
Overall, the deck is definitely moving in the direction I want it. It can have draws that kill on turn 4 and it can also go toe to toe with the grindier decks. That's the type of deck I like to play and I will certainly continue to fine tune it.
Welcome to the party! Definitely make Cavern of Souls a priority if you plan on playing tribal strategies in the long term; just slowly trade for 1 at a time.
Yeah, the only truly awful mana moments were caused by my fetch punts, though hahaha. So I don't really want to blame the deck for that. Anything over 3 color is going to have occasional awkwardness though. The GW deck is super solid and I highly recommend it. If you're stuck with a 2 color manabase for now, I think it's going to be your best bet. More on that in a moment.
I think the problem with 2 color is that you don't have the 3cmc haymakers required to make Collected Company the bomb it needs to be. Thalia is solid, but Fiend Hunter is very subpar and will lead to bad tempo swings when the opponent removes it. Unless you're able to run some combination of Mantis Rider (most important)/Reflector Mage/Anafenza, the Foremost/Lyev Skyknight/Eternal Witness, I don't think it's a good idea to run Collected Company. You've got the right core with Champ/Lieutenant/Mayor/Guardian - I'd recommend going for something like the straight up GW aggro build you mentioned earlier.
I see no point in running Collected Company, wasting the spell on 1-drops and 2-drops is not mana efficient and gains nothing.
Good options can be:
Knight of the Reliquary, Tireless Tracker, Eternal Witness and Lantern Scout (lifelink for the team can be decent).
In GW there is also the option to run the allies that grow each other:
Hada Freeblade, Kazandu Blademaster and Oran-Rief Survivalist.
The more I think about it , it seems that "Humans" is just weaker "Allies" deck.
Most of the good Allies are Humans anyway and they have much better synergy with each other and grow bigger so just playing "Champion
+ Lieutenant + Allies" seems like the more competitive option.
Something like this:
4x Champion of the Parish
4x Expedition Envoy
4x Hada Freeblade
4x Kazandu Blademaster
4x Oran-Rief Survivalist
4x Akoum Battlesinger
4x Thalia's Lieutenant
4x Kabira Evangel
3x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Land (21)
4x Ally Encampment
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Temple Garden
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Plains
1x Forest
1x Mountain
If you want to play individually strong cards I don't think that "Humans Tribal" is the deck for it.
Those cards you mentioned aren't "really" that good on their own (like creatures in midrange decks like: "Jund"/"Abzan"/"Bant Eldrazi" or "Bant Knightfall") and are rather easy to answer/contain.
The real power of these kind of tribal decks is the synergy and "Generic Humans" don't have enough of it compared to Allies, also running a 4c manabase without the help of something like Ally Encampment isn't helping.
A "Humans deck" suffers the same against removal/disruption heavy decks but has (much) less explosive potential to close the game quickly (and these decks aren't really built for the long game anyway) with creatures that go out of control and they also don't have anything that can grant mass evasion/protection like Kabira Evangel.
For Allies the more triggers the better so getting 2-creatures at once is very good.
And you can SB the same cards you do with your humans deck.
I don't think it's quite that straight forward. In Humans, you've got cards like Mantis Rider, Anafenza, the Foremost, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, Eternal Witness and Reflector Mage and several others which are not only good cards on their own, but also synergistic with the Humans theme where they are likely to grow larger and grow the creatures around them. These creatures provide evasion, card advantage and interaction without external help and do so while still progressing the core gameplan. They are not the best individual cards in a vacuum (though I'd argue, in some cases, not far from the top), but in a deck built to take full advantage of them, they are very good. With the Allies list like you posted, all of the creatures are absolutely useless without backup and a large board presence, and there is zero tacked on utility for them outside of getting on the beatdown plan. They are more explosive, sure, but also far more likely to falter. The Humans deck is slightly less explosive early, but more consistent and more resilient.
As for closing speed, I haven't had any issues. Heck, I had a game last night where I didn't play a creature till turn 3 and had them dead on turn 5 (they didn't do damage to themselves either - full 20 damage was done). When this deck turns the corner, it closes things out. As someone who plays a lot of Naya Company in paper, which is basically just a "good stuff" creature deck in a similar vain to some of the decks you mentioned, I can tell you that my 5C Humans list feels more powerful overall and is putting up better results in the wider MTGO meta. I did a pretty thorough comparison a few posts back with my previous 5C build and most of the arguments stand with the newer build.
You're right, Humans don't have as many creatures that trigger off each other. The Humans cards are more individually powerful than Allies. It's a trade off like anything else. I do agree, though, that an Ally Encampment-esque card is something Humans could really use. Fingers crossed!
The Humans deck has cards with built in evasion and more built in toughness than the Allies deck. I can tell you from experience with the non-CoCo aggro versions of the Humans deck that things can fall apart quickly if the opponent stays out in front of your +1/+1 counters with things like Izzet Staticaster and Electrolyze. The Allies deck would have that same issue, and maybe even worse - almost every single creature in there is an x/1, there's no way to get to CoCo early like the humans CoCo list, and the curve is slower than an aggro Humans build so it has less of a chance of getting out front before the 1 damage spread removal comes down. A CoCo humans deck can get to CoCo early and has creatures with proper toughness so cards like Izzet Staticaster are not a problem. Evasion is a lot less important in a deck with 4 hasty fliers and a myriad of ways to clear blockers.
You should try examining this card from multiple angles, and multiple perspectives.
You should try reading. Not only that, but the fact that you are trying to compare a card choice in a Collected Company deck to a card choice in a blitz aggro deck with 17 1 drops and 17 2 drops (including Gather the Townsfolk) is mind boggling, especially when you're trying to tell someone else to look at a card from multiple perspectives. If you took a few minutes to look over the decklists I have posted instead of making assumptions, you would see big differences between my CoCo lists and my blitz lists (spoiler: All of my blitz lists run a full playset of Warden of the First Tree).