If you're going for a Blood Moon approach might there be some value in running 4x Simian Spirit Guide to rush out a T2 Blood Moon?
I don't think there's any point in rushing out a Magus since you can usually count on your first couple drops eating a bolt and there's no reason to turn that into a 2-for-1 by discarding SSG for it.
I would say Grim Lavamancer is worse with only 4 fetchlands, so a 1-of would make the cut, maybe not the 2nd one. The other reason is you want to be blitz aggro, and Lavamancer is meh in your opening hand.
You must run 20 lands maximum, you should even try 18, then 19 lands, just to be sure you're not wasting slots by building too conservatively. Your curve looks like a Delver deck, and if you check out Reid Duke's last video, you can see he plays 18 lands in his variant. Don't be shy while testing.
Brave the Elements looks miles better than Path to Exile to me. Evasion is key and not giving your opponent's lands is important too in terms of tempo. If you let Jund trade a Tarmo for a Swamp, you may put him in a better spot. You should try ot cut Path and see how it goes. Maybe a split will end up be better, I mean this is just a suggestion.
Your sideboard is too straight to be perfect imo. Unfortunately, as I haven't tried your list, I can't help you.
@shelldell : I have thought about Lightning Mauler, and I think I don't want to keep this card in my 60. It's a suspect card because I always cut it post-SB for better options. Also I come to the conclusion evasion > explosiveness. The reason is the deck isn't fast enough to be able to beat everything with explosiveness. Evasion, on the other hand, has been key to win tight matches and I'm sure you can confirm my words thanks to your latest experience.
So when you talked about Rancor and Ghor-Clan Rampager, while I was on the Smuggler's Copter side of things, I think we were both on the right track. We also both noticed the tension between BTE and the UW creatures, so we can't easily fit in 2 Reflector Mage in place of the Maulers. I'm curious to have your feedback on this.
The other card I'm considering is Dromoka's Command, whch was in my main deck a few weeks ago. It's indirect evasion and it fights pesky MUs like Ad Naus, Burn, Bogles, Blue Moon, various Prison decks pretty well...
True, 19 might be too greedy. I was more focused on the reasoning and didn't quite consider there was 8 3-drops.
Maybe the key is to cut the Garrisons to turn Brave into a more viable card. Not that it's a better deck after this change, but it's an option. I doubt you'll ever get to transmute Battlements and a Garrison (it's 6 lands on the battlefield !). It's more likely to transform Westvale Abbey in a dedicated deck (like Elves for example).
If ever you cut Garrison, nice options are there like the Thalias, but also the Copter that fits well in a deck with Gather the Townsfolk. It's not like if Garrison was unreplaceable.
Auriok Champion would be a great card in your SB, it's great against Kalitas decks (Jund, Grixis), Burn, Elves, Merfolk, Affi and so on.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Haven't worked out the sideboard yet, but it's steam rolling decks on Cockatrice even without one.
Mostly it's a beat-down deck, and its good at it (though not as fast as red/white humans). But it can grind out long games with Dark Confidant, Coco, and Fiend Hunter. And it of course has the infinite combo with Melira, Sylvok Outcast.
The Combo isn't as all-in as Abzan Company, but it also isnt quite as fast at finding it. There are a couple reasons why its more resilient though -
1) Your combo pieces are harder to counter due to Cavern of Souls.
2) Melira can easily get out of bolt range with all the +1/+1's around, and Cartel Aristocrat is already a very hard card to kill.
Zulaport Cutthroat is there as an added combo piece against Ensnaring Bridge decks. Not sure it's the perfect answer, but it's pretty good.
If only they had a human 'Persist' creature!! this deck would be complete. Although Kitchen Finks is such a good card that I have no problems running 4 in this deck...
That's a pretty interesting direction to take. I do love the Melira combo – having an "oops I win" option is great, and Finks is obviously a strong card. Obviously the flip side is that your deck is even more soft to Grafdigger's Cage shutting down CoCo + Chord + Finks. Luckily Cage isn't as common as it was a few weeks ago. I did have a couple other questions:
Do you find that you regularly have enough green permanents to cast Chord when you need it?
Do you feel you have enough sac fodder to make Cartel Aristocrat worthwhile outside of the combo? There's 4x Finks (though sac'ing them early prevents the loop) and maybe your Hierarchs after you reach 4 lands, otherwise you'd have to sac other useful things. I worry that Cartel & Melira would end up as 2/2 bears too often outside of a bit of reach for the former and improving the Infect matchup for the latter.
Haven't worked out the sideboard yet, but it's steam rolling decks on Cockatrice even without one.
Mostly it's a beat-down deck, and its good at it (though not as fast as red/white humans). But it can grind out long games with Dark Confidant, Coco, and Fiend Hunter. And it of course has the infinite combo with Melira, Sylvok Outcast.
The Combo isn't as all-in as Abzan Company, but it also isnt quite as fast at finding it. There are a couple reasons why its more resilient though -
1) Your combo pieces are harder to counter due to Cavern of Souls.
2) Melira can easily get out of bolt range with all the +1/+1's around, and Cartel Aristocrat is already a very hard card to kill.
Zulaport Cutthroat is there as an added combo piece against Ensnaring Bridge decks. Not sure it's the perfect answer, but it's pretty good.
If only they had a human 'Persist' creature!! this deck would be complete. Although Kitchen Finks is such a good card that I have no problems running 4 in this deck...
So far so good. I'll keep testing!
Feels like you want maybe less finks, a rally the ancestors, and as shelldell mentioned more green permanents for chord. I've been messing with a similar brew for awhile.
I like how the deck switches gears with the built in combo. Yeah it's 3 cards for infinite life and 4 for the drain, but going wide into an aristocrat and cutthroat may be enough to close out the game anyway. I don't feel like they are dead cards.
grim flayer feels like a no brainer if you go that route. Not only is he a big beat stick especially with pumps, but he offers you specific filtering so you can dig for a 1 of copy of rally while filtering chaff along the way. Having an option to aggressively block and trade against something like jund or eldrazi while digging to a combo seems like a very strong plan B.
I considered Rally, ya. I guess the downside is that there isnt enough cards that attempt to fill the graveyard to make it worthwhile. Grim Flayer would definitely help it's cause. I like the idea.
The pros are:
1) The combo becomes more resilient, and easier to find.
2) Flayer adds another green creature for Chord.
The cons are:
1) Rally does very little to further the aggro plan, as none of the creatures have haste.
2) Grim Flayer will never achieve Delirium, so is just another 2/2 in the deck.
Grim Flayer would probably have to take the place of Dark Confidant, as they both serve a similar function. Bob has more utility with the aggro and the combo plan though.
The other flex spot is Mayor of Avabruck. I like that he both adds aggro, and helps get Melira, and the rest of the team to that sturdy 4/4 toughness we want them at. I'm considering Eternal Witness instead however, as it's also very useful in keeping the combo alive.
Right now the Green creature count is at 15. Abzan Company usually runs 23, so ya, this is a little short. It's also why I'm only running 2 Chord of Calling. That, and our creatures like to turn sideways to attack more often then to tutor creatures. So far I havent had any trouble casting it. There's usually 2 green mana sources and at least 1 green creature.
Cartel Aristocrat really helps punch through for the last bits of damage in the case of a pyroclasm/anger, and big blockers. Kitchen Finks is just so strong, and is a back breaker in every aggro matchup.
IMO Flayer isn't exactly a "no brainer". By default he's a 2/2 -- it's hard to push damage through with a 2/2, even if he has trample.
Luckily the deck runs a lot of pumping effects between 4x Lieutenant, 2x Mayor, 2x Anafenza, and 4x Hierarch. With 12 pump effects I think there's a reasonable chance that Flayer will get to 3/3 at some point of the majority of games, and depending upon the board state I could imagine a 3/3 getting damage through a couple times. Turn 2 Flayer followed by Turn 3 Lieutenant/Mayor (and maybe even exalted from T1 Hierarch) would be the fastest this could happen.
However, you can pretty much give up on regularly turning on Flayer's delirium ability – A CoCo deck wants you to run as many (human) creatures as possible, and that conflicts with having a wide distribution of card types needed for delirium. For this reason I don't see him ever aggressively trading and blocking a large Goyf or Reality Smasher.
Have you had any experience that suggests otherwise? If so I would be curious to see what your decklist is and hear more about your matches.
There are a handful of artifact humans and enchantment humans to help. I personally think aegis of the gods or etherswon cannoist are quite strong against certain decks. If you're in black already, the discard suite of 1 drops are all sorcery speed. I think you can still maintain a decent amount of creatures and flayer gives you the opportunity of pitching late game discard off the top of your deck, which is a drawback of it. Those cards alone give you sorcery, artifact, and enchantment. With a fetch base and creatures centric deck we may be hitting delirium off the first instant we cast.
Rough sketch, I haven't run it through it's paces:
You have 31 creatures, 7 instants, 19 lands with fetches, 7 "4th" card types. Sure delirium isn't active T3 but aegis is a huge headache for a variety of decks like jund and in tribe. Champion/Thalia'a lieutenant/flayer give you the aggro package. Discard gives you disruption. You have the infinite life and drain combos built in. You have evasion in the sac outlet. You can combo at instant speed if they aren't angering/pathing your combo pieces. Flayer/confidant give you quality.
Then hovers need tweaking, but it's a funky deck to play against. I feel westvale abbey would be good in a spell slot as you can rally back during their end step, untap with the exile trigger on the stack and pitch everything to Westvale, sac the rest to cartel and the. They have to deal with a 9/7 flying,lifeline,trample,haste beast.
Again not refined, but flayer already does so much for this deck and he's punching through a ton of board positions early on. It's basically an Abzan coco deck where you trim the combo package for a human aggro sub theme.
Another cool angle for the Human Rally combo would be Xathrid Necromancer. If we can fill up the graveyard fast enough and don't have the combo, just Rally everything back and sac them to Cartel Aristocrat.... We'd be left with an army of 2/2 Zombies, not to mention damage from Zulaport Cutthroat.
Another cool angle for the Human Rally combo would be Xathrid Necromancer. If we can fill up the graveyard fast enough and don't have the combo, just Rally everything back and sac them to Cartel Aristocrat.... We'd be left with an army of 2/2 Zombies, not to mention damage from Zulaport Cutthroat.
When I was testing it, it just walks over control decks. It seemed to have a really good aggro match up with all the incidental lifegain, and big creatures to block.
The Combo match up is what worries me. Our combo/aggro isn't going to be as fast. Melira helps with infect, Anafenza helps with abzan company/dredge/grishoalbrand. But drawing the perfect answer isn't always going to happen. I guess disruption helps, but maybe i'd just keep it in the sideboard. I'd also fill up the sideboard with Paths and Abrupt Decays. The deck outright dies to Blood Moon, but so do most decks.
ALSO - moving further away from the beatdown angle, Golgari Thug is an interesting card for getting the combo into our graveyards. Bloodsoaked Champion becomes even more playable as well.
The first isnt infinite, but it'll likely get in for the last point of damage. It will also beef up Champion of the Parish, and Thalia's Lieutenant. It's also harder to disrupt, because you can't just kill Melira.
The 2nd will always win the game outright, and doesn't need filler Dredge cards to function.
golgari thug gets along extremely well with jace, vryn's prodigy or humble defector. Jace is nice because if he sticks around we're getting a dredge/pitch all in one activation to make sure the thug is there for the next iteration. Not sure how Jace works with X castes spells in his PW side though, since you cast without paying the cost. Can Jace even get a rally out of the yard if you mill it?
Unfortunately incidental GY hate is a thing, which may be an issue if the deck becomes too combo focused. I like rally as a 1-2 of because if you don't fire it off game 1 you can swap to a combo deck g2 without your opponent bringing in a swath of GY hard. Basically they go removal heavy and you just board into a strat that digs and fuels the yard to get reach off of cutthroat.
I don't mind a one of Rally the Ancestors in place of a Chord of Calling. But I'd want lots of ETB abilities to get value off it, if it doesn't outright give us the combo.
Question: If you Rally a Fiend Hunter, and target your own creature, do you get to keep the creature when fiend hunter dies? thats good value.
Yes, you would keep the creature exiled by Fiend Hunter. Because it was exiled it's technically no longer the same creature and is not included in Rally's ending exile ability. If you sac'd a Finks and it returned due to Persist it would also stay on the field.
Overall I agree that the graveyard angle is probably more cute than reliably practical.
#I'm not sure why you need the mana dorks though as you don't play CoCo or other expensive spells, I would rather add more aggresive 1-drops instead.
#Venser, Shaper Savant is a decent creature but not mana-efficient enough (like Reflector Mage as you would mostly bounce creatures) imho and probably a SB card at best, I think that Kambal, Consul of Allocation is also more of a SB card.
#Playing a Humans tribal deck and not including Mayor of Avabruck seems rather strange as without him there is very little reason to stick to humans outside Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant.
#With the rainbow lands you can easily go 5 colors and add Mantis Rider.
your manabase can be improved if you go check out the latest pages : there's a 5C deck tested by 2 guys @ChannelFireball (from a list that did a decent perf). Reflecting Pool, Pillar of the Paruns, etc... I've tested it too, it works very well in a shell without Coco.
I tend to agree with Dennis. Mayor is the only thing I wouldn't consider without deeper analysis (since I cut it myself in my lists). But your list is midrange, not very aggro, so Mayor could fit in. The fact you want more Trackers indicates you're playing in value town, and Mayor can win games in the lategame.
Mantis Rider is the best Human 3-drop for this topic. Compare it to Anafenza, arguably the best 3-drop in black, well Rider is faster, unblockable, can block almost anything. Obviously Rider works better than Ana with Coco. However Rider is aggro and I ain't sure it fits in your deck.
One important thing I would let players think about is : what is the plan ?
Once again, I see an aristocrat-like list and I'm thinking "it doesn't quite belong here". The list wants to be aggro, but wants to combo too. The flaw I see is the combo doesn't help the aggro, and vice versa. So both plans A & B get less consistent, less powerful. Everytime a deck tries to win on 2 different strategies, well it gets worse than an all-in version, but in the very corner case where both plans could play the same cards in the first place. I'm sorry but Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant don't combo with Melira and Cartel Aristocrat !
When I see a Wx (blitz or tempo) list, I understand the plan and the list looks rather competitive. When I see a Coco deck, the same applies. I don't entirely dismiss the other approaches but they fail at convincing me so far...
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Hey everyone. This is a BW Humans Aggro deck I've been playing with that I built using ideas from this thread (thanks guys) and other sources. It's pretty reliable at adapting and dealing with different decks, though I find it hard to win games against other aggro decks that extend beyond turn 5 or 6. I'm looking for feedback on the deck overall and also ideas for big finish cards to keep in the sideboard.
The deck used to have more creatures, namely Boros Elite and Mardu Shadowspear, which were great one drops, particularly Shadowspear on dash to pump up champions. My playgroup is combo heavy though, so I went with more discard and disruption. I look forward to your feedback, I really like playing humans and watching little dudes like us fight against all the craziness magic throws at them.
Cockatrice feedback.
50 matches : 40 wins, 2 draws, 8 losses. I didn't count the G1s only, but I counted all the trash one may face on this software... so perhaps the worthy wins count up to 25 or 30.
This has been my 60 :
And I finally want to discuss the sideboard since I've piled up enough experience with the archetype.
Auriok, Stati and Witness never left the sideboard since I saw the cards fix some MUs.
The Qasali Pridemage though, was included recently when I realized I could win against Prison decks with the help of other cards in the SB : Sphere and Witness. I eventually dropped Fracturing Gust and opted for a Coco target, so Wear // Tear and cie : no thanks. Detention Sphere has been a great 1-of so far, it helps coming back from stalled boards nad hits 5 cmc+ permanents, which are hard to overcome. It also combines with other hate to hit artifacts for the most part. Blessed Alliance is so good against Burn and Infect (even though they have Probe and can play around it) that I play 3. It hits other problematic MUs like Bogles, Suicide, Prowess, it shores up Delver, Valakut and a few other "i kill you with one guy" decks, even though these are quite manageable. Mana Leak was Negate first, and it could turn into Meddling Mage or Unified Will, but those 2 cards don't have my trust for now. The first one is complicated to play but is a Coco target and can be played with Cavern, and that's huge. The latter can be a dead card in MUs like Infect and Burn, and I can't let that happen. So the Mage has more chances to be tested and compared to Leak in the future. Now, Leak is still better than Pierce / Denial, because it hits Primetime, Tron fatties, Eldrazis, and VS Burn and Affi, it's fine to counter a creature.
Ramp and Combo decks are tight MUs, it's a race and I'm rather confident whether I have a SB card or just a very agressive opening.
Burn is still the boogeyman of my list, but with 8 cards to side in, I believe I stand a chance.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Interesting, thank you for sharing. My guess is that you'll wind up back on Meddling Mage but we'll see. Can you elaborate on your progression from Copter to Helix?
Sure. Copter, Rancor, Atarka's Command, are cards that cascade from BTE, but they don't interact with the board. More precisely, I wanted something that helps my Burn MU. Incidentally it's very good to also help the other Tier 1 MUs like Affi, Dredge, Infect, and give yourself more reach against prison and control decks.
Rancor and Copter were winmore and I felt like it didn't have a big impact in my boardstates. I wasn't disappointed with the cards, but they didn't help me where I struggled. Once I decided to look for something else, I tried cards I usually had in various SB configurations for this archetype, and look at what other players chose to play, either main or side.
A few months ago, I had 2 Auriok Champion in my main and I had almost forgotten the reason why. Lightning Helix is a proactive card if there's nothing to kill on the board, and has been the best thing I've tested in those 2 slots until now.
If I take a look at what the meta looks like online (i.e. a mix between Europe and America), my choice resonates even more.
I don't hesitate to tell people when what I test is garbage, but I can tell that list impresses my opponents and myself, so far.
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Hi, I'd cut some spells for more creatures, maybe 1 zealous 2 bonds, you seem to want to be a fast aggro deck so you'll want more than 23 including gather. Also I'd run some Mutavault as it's sweet with Thalia's Lieutenant and Bloodsoaked Champion against wipe decks. I'd run big finish cards in the main but to do so you'll need more disruption and probably at least one more land. Hero of Bladehold is good if you think you can run them out of removal and be able to remove big blockers, if not than Elspeth, Knight-Errant could be good. Here's my updated list if you want some inspiration, I've been top 8ing fairly consistently at fnm with it, it's more of a midrange deck but it can also jump out the gate. https://deckstats.net/decks/57633/467788-tribal-dead-guy-ale/en
I'm reluctant to pull the Zealous Persecutions because that's the card that often wins me the game, and it doubles as a nasty board wipe against certain decks. Bonds of Faith is what I'd be more eager to board out, that or maybe a slide a few Inquisitions to the sideboard.
Mutavault is an interesting idea that I'll try out, but I think Hero of Bladehold is a little to high on the curve for me, same with Elspeth, and neither of their tokens do much for me. Took a look at your deck and want to ask how Skirsdag High Priest works for you in that deck? I run him in another BW aristocrat deck I'm still working on that has a lot of tokens, and I could see how he could be interesting here as he seems to completely change the nature of the game when he hits the board.
Some other cards I've been considering: Student of Warfare: I've read too much about this guy to not play test a bit. Seems very versatile. Grim Haruspex: Just to go all in for card advantage and make people pay for blocking/board wipes Silverblade Paladin: Again, seen a lot of press for this one. Still don't know if it's worth it.
I don't think there's any point in rushing out a Magus since you can usually count on your first couple drops eating a bolt and there's no reason to turn that into a 2-for-1 by discarding SSG for it.
You must run 20 lands maximum, you should even try 18, then 19 lands, just to be sure you're not wasting slots by building too conservatively. Your curve looks like a Delver deck, and if you check out Reid Duke's last video, you can see he plays 18 lands in his variant. Don't be shy while testing.
Brave the Elements looks miles better than Path to Exile to me. Evasion is key and not giving your opponent's lands is important too in terms of tempo. If you let Jund trade a Tarmo for a Swamp, you may put him in a better spot. You should try ot cut Path and see how it goes. Maybe a split will end up be better, I mean this is just a suggestion.
Your sideboard is too straight to be perfect imo. Unfortunately, as I haven't tried your list, I can't help you.
@shelldell : I have thought about Lightning Mauler, and I think I don't want to keep this card in my 60. It's a suspect card because I always cut it post-SB for better options. Also I come to the conclusion evasion > explosiveness. The reason is the deck isn't fast enough to be able to beat everything with explosiveness. Evasion, on the other hand, has been key to win tight matches and I'm sure you can confirm my words thanks to your latest experience.
So when you talked about Rancor and Ghor-Clan Rampager, while I was on the Smuggler's Copter side of things, I think we were both on the right track. We also both noticed the tension between BTE and the UW creatures, so we can't easily fit in 2 Reflector Mage in place of the Maulers. I'm curious to have your feedback on this.
The other card I'm considering is Dromoka's Command, whch was in my main deck a few weeks ago. It's indirect evasion and it fights pesky MUs like Ad Naus, Burn, Bogles, Blue Moon, various Prison decks pretty well...
Maybe the key is to cut the Garrisons to turn Brave into a more viable card. Not that it's a better deck after this change, but it's an option. I doubt you'll ever get to transmute Battlements and a Garrison (it's 6 lands on the battlefield !). It's more likely to transform Westvale Abbey in a dedicated deck (like Elves for example).
If ever you cut Garrison, nice options are there like the Thalias, but also the Copter that fits well in a deck with Gather the Townsfolk. It's not like if Garrison was unreplaceable.
Auriok Champion would be a great card in your SB, it's great against Kalitas decks (Jund, Grixis), Burn, Elves, Merfolk, Affi and so on.
Here's my take on it:
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Cartel Aristocrat
4 Champion of the Parish
3 Dark Confidant
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Zulaport Cutthroat
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands (19)
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Haven't worked out the sideboard yet, but it's steam rolling decks on Cockatrice even without one.
Mostly it's a beat-down deck, and its good at it (though not as fast as red/white humans). But it can grind out long games with Dark Confidant, Coco, and Fiend Hunter. And it of course has the infinite combo with Melira, Sylvok Outcast.
The Combo isn't as all-in as Abzan Company, but it also isnt quite as fast at finding it. There are a couple reasons why its more resilient though -
1) Your combo pieces are harder to counter due to Cavern of Souls.
2) Melira can easily get out of bolt range with all the +1/+1's around, and Cartel Aristocrat is already a very hard card to kill.
Zulaport Cutthroat is there as an added combo piece against Ensnaring Bridge decks. Not sure it's the perfect answer, but it's pretty good.
If only they had a human 'Persist' creature!! this deck would be complete. Although Kitchen Finks is such a good card that I have no problems running 4 in this deck...
So far so good. I'll keep testing!
Do you find that you regularly have enough green permanents to cast Chord when you need it?
Do you feel you have enough sac fodder to make Cartel Aristocrat worthwhile outside of the combo? There's 4x Finks (though sac'ing them early prevents the loop) and maybe your Hierarchs after you reach 4 lands, otherwise you'd have to sac other useful things. I worry that Cartel & Melira would end up as 2/2 bears too often outside of a bit of reach for the former and improving the Infect matchup for the latter.
Feels like you want maybe less finks, a rally the ancestors, and as shelldell mentioned more green permanents for chord. I've been messing with a similar brew for awhile.
I like how the deck switches gears with the built in combo. Yeah it's 3 cards for infinite life and 4 for the drain, but going wide into an aristocrat and cutthroat may be enough to close out the game anyway. I don't feel like they are dead cards.
grim flayer feels like a no brainer if you go that route. Not only is he a big beat stick especially with pumps, but he offers you specific filtering so you can dig for a 1 of copy of rally while filtering chaff along the way. Having an option to aggressively block and trade against something like jund or eldrazi while digging to a combo seems like a very strong plan B.
The pros are:
1) The combo becomes more resilient, and easier to find.
2) Flayer adds another green creature for Chord.
The cons are:
1) Rally does very little to further the aggro plan, as none of the creatures have haste.
2) Grim Flayer will never achieve Delirium, so is just another 2/2 in the deck.
Grim Flayer would probably have to take the place of Dark Confidant, as they both serve a similar function. Bob has more utility with the aggro and the combo plan though.
The other flex spot is Mayor of Avabruck. I like that he both adds aggro, and helps get Melira, and the rest of the team to that sturdy 4/4 toughness we want them at. I'm considering Eternal Witness instead however, as it's also very useful in keeping the combo alive.
Right now the Green creature count is at 15. Abzan Company usually runs 23, so ya, this is a little short. It's also why I'm only running 2 Chord of Calling. That, and our creatures like to turn sideways to attack more often then to tutor creatures. So far I havent had any trouble casting it. There's usually 2 green mana sources and at least 1 green creature.
Cartel Aristocrat really helps punch through for the last bits of damage in the case of a pyroclasm/anger, and big blockers. Kitchen Finks is just so strong, and is a back breaker in every aggro matchup.
Maybe fewer Fiend Hunter?
Luckily the deck runs a lot of pumping effects between 4x Lieutenant, 2x Mayor, 2x Anafenza, and 4x Hierarch. With 12 pump effects I think there's a reasonable chance that Flayer will get to 3/3 at some point of the majority of games, and depending upon the board state I could imagine a 3/3 getting damage through a couple times. Turn 2 Flayer followed by Turn 3 Lieutenant/Mayor (and maybe even exalted from T1 Hierarch) would be the fastest this could happen.
However, you can pretty much give up on regularly turning on Flayer's delirium ability – A CoCo deck wants you to run as many (human) creatures as possible, and that conflicts with having a wide distribution of card types needed for delirium. For this reason I don't see him ever aggressively trading and blocking a large Goyf or Reality Smasher.
Have you had any experience that suggests otherwise? If so I would be curious to see what your decklist is and hear more about your matches.
Rough sketch, I haven't run it through it's paces:
4 noble heirarch
4 Thalia's lieutenant
1 aegis of the gods
1 ethersworn cannoist
4 grim flayer
2 dark confidant
2 cartel aristocrat
1 Melira, sylvok outcast
1 zulaport cutthroat
2 anafenza, the foremost
2 kitchen finks
2 fiend hunter
1 eternal witness
2 chord of calling
1 rally the ancestors
3 inquisition of kozilek
19 lands
You have 31 creatures, 7 instants, 19 lands with fetches, 7 "4th" card types. Sure delirium isn't active T3 but aegis is a huge headache for a variety of decks like jund and in tribe. Champion/Thalia'a lieutenant/flayer give you the aggro package. Discard gives you disruption. You have the infinite life and drain combos built in. You have evasion in the sac outlet. You can combo at instant speed if they aren't angering/pathing your combo pieces. Flayer/confidant give you quality.
Then hovers need tweaking, but it's a funky deck to play against. I feel westvale abbey would be good in a spell slot as you can rally back during their end step, untap with the exile trigger on the stack and pitch everything to Westvale, sac the rest to cartel and the. They have to deal with a 9/7 flying,lifeline,trample,haste beast.
Again not refined, but flayer already does so much for this deck and he's punching through a ton of board positions early on. It's basically an Abzan coco deck where you trim the combo package for a human aggro sub theme.
Nearly the same list as the japanese's and the guy took 2nd place. That was a month ago but I ain't sure it was noted in the topic.
There's definitely a deck here somewhere...
I agree. I feel like xathrid necromancer, grim flayer, champion of the parish, and thalia's lieutenant are plenty enough for the aggro beat down plan. The rest should be disruption/card quality and draw/removal/combo pieces.
eldrazi displacer can also do some pretty degenerate things too with the ETB triggers on some of the humans (eternal witness comes to mind).
The Combo match up is what worries me. Our combo/aggro isn't going to be as fast. Melira helps with infect, Anafenza helps with abzan company/dredge/grishoalbrand. But drawing the perfect answer isn't always going to happen. I guess disruption helps, but maybe i'd just keep it in the sideboard. I'd also fill up the sideboard with Paths and Abrupt Decays. The deck outright dies to Blood Moon, but so do most decks.
ALSO - moving further away from the beatdown angle, Golgari Thug is an interesting card for getting the combo into our graveyards. Bloodsoaked Champion becomes even more playable as well.
I think there might be a point where we'd have to decide whats better between a
1) Aggro Dredge Rally Human deck with a Cartel Aristocrat, Xathrid Necromancer, Zulaport Cutthroat Combo finish.
2) Aggro Abzan Coco deck with Cartel Aristocrat, Melira, Sylvok Outcast, and Kitchen Finks Combo finish.
The first isnt infinite, but it'll likely get in for the last point of damage. It will also beef up Champion of the Parish, and Thalia's Lieutenant. It's also harder to disrupt, because you can't just kill Melira.
The 2nd will always win the game outright, and doesn't need filler Dredge cards to function.
Unfortunately incidental GY hate is a thing, which may be an issue if the deck becomes too combo focused. I like rally as a 1-2 of because if you don't fire it off game 1 you can swap to a combo deck g2 without your opponent bringing in a swath of GY hard. Basically they go removal heavy and you just board into a strat that digs and fuels the yard to get reach off of cutthroat.
Food for thought.
I think ethersworn canonist and aegis of the gods are sideboard cards at best, and I'm thinking Grim Flayer will always be a 2/2 with card filtering.
I don't mind a one of Rally the Ancestors in place of a Chord of Calling. But I'd want lots of ETB abilities to get value off it, if it doesn't outright give us the combo.
Question: If you Rally a Fiend Hunter, and target your own creature, do you get to keep the creature when fiend hunter dies? thats good value.
Overall I agree that the graveyard angle is probably more cute than reliably practical.
The deck looks pretty good.
#I'm not sure why you need the mana dorks though as you don't play CoCo or other expensive spells, I would rather add more aggresive 1-drops instead.
#Venser, Shaper Savant is a decent creature but not mana-efficient enough (like Reflector Mage as you would mostly bounce creatures) imho and probably a SB card at best, I think that Kambal, Consul of Allocation is also more of a SB card.
#Playing a Humans tribal deck and not including Mayor of Avabruck seems rather strange as without him there is very little reason to stick to humans outside Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant.
#With the rainbow lands you can easily go 5 colors and add Mantis Rider.
Here is how I would go with a 5C list:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Soldier of the Pantheon
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Dark Confidant
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mantis Rider
4 Reflector Mage
4 Path to Exile
Land (20)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mana Confluence
4 City of Brass
3 Reflecting Pool
2 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Plains
2 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Sin Collector
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Meddling Mage
your manabase can be improved if you go check out the latest pages : there's a 5C deck tested by 2 guys @ChannelFireball (from a list that did a decent perf). Reflecting Pool, Pillar of the Paruns, etc... I've tested it too, it works very well in a shell without Coco.
I tend to agree with Dennis. Mayor is the only thing I wouldn't consider without deeper analysis (since I cut it myself in my lists). But your list is midrange, not very aggro, so Mayor could fit in. The fact you want more Trackers indicates you're playing in value town, and Mayor can win games in the lategame.
Mantis Rider is the best Human 3-drop for this topic. Compare it to Anafenza, arguably the best 3-drop in black, well Rider is faster, unblockable, can block almost anything. Obviously Rider works better than Ana with Coco. However Rider is aggro and I ain't sure it fits in your deck.
One important thing I would let players think about is : what is the plan ?
Once again, I see an aristocrat-like list and I'm thinking "it doesn't quite belong here". The list wants to be aggro, but wants to combo too. The flaw I see is the combo doesn't help the aggro, and vice versa. So both plans A & B get less consistent, less powerful. Everytime a deck tries to win on 2 different strategies, well it gets worse than an all-in version, but in the very corner case where both plans could play the same cards in the first place. I'm sorry but Champion of the Parish and Thalia's Lieutenant don't combo with Melira and Cartel Aristocrat !
When I see a Wx (blitz or tempo) list, I understand the plan and the list looks rather competitive. When I see a Coco deck, the same applies. I don't entirely dismiss the other approaches but they fail at convincing me so far...
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Zealous Persecution
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Enchantment
4 Bonds of Faith
Land
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
5 Plains
4 Swamp
3 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Brave the Elements
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stony Silence
The deck used to have more creatures, namely Boros Elite and Mardu Shadowspear, which were great one drops, particularly Shadowspear on dash to pump up champions. My playgroup is combo heavy though, so I went with more discard and disruption. I look forward to your feedback, I really like playing humans and watching little dudes like us fight against all the craziness magic throws at them.
50 matches : 40 wins, 2 draws, 8 losses. I didn't count the G1s only, but I counted all the trash one may face on this software... so perhaps the worthy wins count up to 25 or 30.
This has been my 60 :
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Mantis Rider
4 Lyev Skyknight
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
1 Steam Vents
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Razorverge Thicket
4 Cavern of Souls
I missed the plains a few times, but I also missed a Hallowed Fountain a few times, I mean, the mana is super rough. No way to entirely fix it.
And my sideboard changed a bit over the course of my testing but that's its current form :
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Eternal Witness
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Blessed Alliance
3 Mana Leak
And I finally want to discuss the sideboard since I've piled up enough experience with the archetype.
Auriok, Stati and Witness never left the sideboard since I saw the cards fix some MUs.
The Qasali Pridemage though, was included recently when I realized I could win against Prison decks with the help of other cards in the SB : Sphere and Witness. I eventually dropped Fracturing Gust and opted for a Coco target, so Wear // Tear and cie : no thanks.
Detention Sphere has been a great 1-of so far, it helps coming back from stalled boards nad hits 5 cmc+ permanents, which are hard to overcome. It also combines with other hate to hit artifacts for the most part.
Blessed Alliance is so good against Burn and Infect (even though they have Probe and can play around it) that I play 3. It hits other problematic MUs like Bogles, Suicide, Prowess, it shores up Delver, Valakut and a few other "i kill you with one guy" decks, even though these are quite manageable.
Mana Leak was Negate first, and it could turn into Meddling Mage or Unified Will, but those 2 cards don't have my trust for now. The first one is complicated to play but is a Coco target and can be played with Cavern, and that's huge. The latter can be a dead card in MUs like Infect and Burn, and I can't let that happen. So the Mage has more chances to be tested and compared to Leak in the future. Now, Leak is still better than Pierce / Denial, because it hits Primetime, Tron fatties, Eldrazis, and VS Burn and Affi, it's fine to counter a creature.
Ramp and Combo decks are tight MUs, it's a race and I'm rather confident whether I have a SB card or just a very agressive opening.
Burn is still the boogeyman of my list, but with 8 cards to side in, I believe I stand a chance.
Rancor and Copter were winmore and I felt like it didn't have a big impact in my boardstates. I wasn't disappointed with the cards, but they didn't help me where I struggled. Once I decided to look for something else, I tried cards I usually had in various SB configurations for this archetype, and look at what other players chose to play, either main or side.
A few months ago, I had 2 Auriok Champion in my main and I had almost forgotten the reason why. Lightning Helix is a proactive card if there's nothing to kill on the board, and has been the best thing I've tested in those 2 slots until now.
If I take a look at what the meta looks like online (i.e. a mix between Europe and America), my choice resonates even more.
I don't hesitate to tell people when what I test is garbage, but I can tell that list impresses my opponents and myself, so far.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
Instant
4 Path to Exile
4 Zealous Persecution
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Enchantment
4 Bonds of Faith
Land
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
5 Plains
4 Swamp
3 Xathrid Necromancer
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Brave the Elements
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Stony Silence
Hi, I'd cut some spells for more creatures, maybe 1 zealous 2 bonds, you seem to want to be a fast aggro deck so you'll want more than 23 including gather. Also I'd run some Mutavault as it's sweet with Thalia's Lieutenant and Bloodsoaked Champion against wipe decks. I'd run big finish cards in the main but to do so you'll need more disruption and probably at least one more land. Hero of Bladehold is good if you think you can run them out of removal and be able to remove big blockers, if not than Elspeth, Knight-Errant could be good. Here's my updated list if you want some inspiration, I've been top 8ing fairly consistently at fnm with it, it's more of a midrange deck but it can also jump out the gate. https://deckstats.net/decks/57633/467788-tribal-dead-guy-ale/en
I'm reluctant to pull the Zealous Persecutions because that's the card that often wins me the game, and it doubles as a nasty board wipe against certain decks. Bonds of Faith is what I'd be more eager to board out, that or maybe a slide a few Inquisitions to the sideboard.
Mutavault is an interesting idea that I'll try out, but I think Hero of Bladehold is a little to high on the curve for me, same with Elspeth, and neither of their tokens do much for me. Took a look at your deck and want to ask how Skirsdag High Priest works for you in that deck? I run him in another BW aristocrat deck I'm still working on that has a lot of tokens, and I could see how he could be interesting here as he seems to completely change the nature of the game when he hits the board.
Some other cards I've been considering:
Student of Warfare: I've read too much about this guy to not play test a bit. Seems very versatile.
Grim Haruspex: Just to go all in for card advantage and make people pay for blocking/board wipes
Silverblade Paladin: Again, seen a lot of press for this one. Still don't know if it's worth it.
The freed up SB slot can be used to add cards like: Sin Collector, Auriok Champion and Lantern Scout, I would also replace Brave the Elements with Repel the Abominable.