For those of you who like numbers, I’ve run 100.000 simulations of two different decks, just to test keepable hands : my deck with 4 Virulents and 16 lands, and another with 2 Automaton and 2 Ziggurats instead. Surprisingly, the deck with 16 lands and more Weenies was more keepable than the one with 18 lands, and by a wide margin... 78% vs 63%, if I recall correctly.
I bet a build with 18 lands has more win percentage than 16 lands. And your algorithm for keepable hands is most probably flawed) Playing one 1-drop per turn is a road to defeat.
No one plays 16 lands in Modern for a reason
And this deck is no exception, yes it wants to play 1 drops, but its power comes from 2 drops, which is a problem at 16 lands (2 cmc mana dork is not a solution)
Agreed.
If said simulation variables only demand 1 landers to be "viable" then I would call it flawed. Not only do you want to play a 2CMC drop on your second turn or at least 2 x 1 drops to keep up the pace. That 2nd land is so important and its rare you can win with a 1 lander and stick with that land throughout the next few turns. Possible with a vial but other than that I dont see it.
patbou_clone: Personally I appreciate your efforts in proving one version is "the right one" but I do miss more pratical data piloting the deck other than what any simulation could provide. Timba has advocated for his Fast Slivers version and have provided lots of tournament results to back it up with.
If said simulation variables only demand 1 landers to be "viable" then I would call it flawed. Not only do you want to play a 2CMC drop on your second turn or at least 2 x 1 drops to keep up the pace. That 2nd land is so important and its rare you can win with a 1 lander and stick with that land throughout the next few turns. Possible with a vial but other than that I dont see it.
patbou_clone: Personally I appreciate your efforts in proving one version is "the right one" but I do miss more pratical data piloting the deck other than what any simulation could provide. Timba has advocated for his Fast Slivers version and have provided lots of tournament results to back it up with.
Well, 3-0 is something. Have you missed my post? I was away on vacation or would have posted more results. I’ll bring the deck to a big tournament tomorrow. We’ll see... I may be proven wrong.
If said simulation variables only demand 1 landers to be "viable" then I would call it flawed. Not only do you want to play a 2CMC drop on your second turn or at least 2 x 1 drops to keep up the pace. That 2nd land is so important and its rare you can win with a 1 lander and stick with that land throughout the next few turns. Possible with a vial but other than that I dont see it.
patbou_clone: Personally I appreciate your efforts in proving one version is "the right one" but I do miss more pratical data piloting the deck other than what any simulation could provide. Timba has advocated for his Fast Slivers version and have provided lots of tournament results to back it up with.
Well, 3-0 is something. Have you missed my post? I was away on vacation or would have posted more results. I’ll bring the deck to a big tournament tomorrow. We’ll see... I may be proven wrong.
Well... Timba hasn’t posted any results in the Sliver forum since Modern Horizon was released, and this is the set that has completely changed the deck. I’m actively trying to make the deck perform at the competitive level, and I feel I’m on the right track. I may be thinking too much out of the box for your comfort, but it’s not because it’s unusual to play 16 lands in Modern that it is the wrong path for us.
If I recall correctly, Jeskai Ascendancy was posting great results with 16 lands in its glory days (2017). Storm and Eggs played with 17 lands. My version of the deck isn’t a combo deck, but like a combo deck it wins by assembling the right cards : a lot of creatures, a lord that grants flying, and 1+ lord that can increase the damage output of all our creatures. It’s easier to get this critical mass with a higher threat density and less lands, as long as our threats are cheap. Thus, it is not unreasonable to imagine a 16 lands version of the deck could perform well, like combo decks that are fine playing with 16-17 lands.
Slivers lose more to mana flood than to mana screw. I’ve won hard matchups against Tier 1 staple decks with just 2 lands in play. But I’ve lost against fringe decks with 8 lands on the battlefield. I’m more afraid of flooding out than being short on lands. And the new London Mulligan rule helps the kind of decks that are built around a combo or critical mass (as long as said critical mass if fine on 6 cards).
Our two-drops lords (Predatory, Sinew, Leeching) are only good if they’re played on a board already full of creatures, and this is more easily achieved with a lot one-drops (that start as tiny 1/1s, but end as scary 4/4 flyers). BTW, our two-drops are *not* necessary for victory, and we *can* win fast by playing just a one-drop per turn (T1 Galerider, T2 Virulent, T3 Virulent, T4 = win with 11 poison counters).
I don’t think the algorithm I used was flawed. The formulas are scientifically exact, and I’ve run all possible permutations of what are keepable hands, from one landers to 5 landers. As an example, 5 landers are keepable if one land is Mutavault (so you have 3 « creatures » attacking by turn 3-4). One landers (not Mutavault or Ziggurat) are only keepable with Vial and 2+ one-drops if I recall correctly (to play 2 Slivers on turn 2, and the two-drops after). Or if one landers (not Mutavault) didn’t have a Vial, then they would only be keepable with 3+ one drops (because the odds of drawing a land before we’re out of one-drops are quite reasonable).
Just so you understand the depth of my analysis, I even considered that hands with 2 lands, that are respectively Mutavault and Ziggurat, are not keepable if the creatures are mostly multiple copies of Cloudshredder and Mariner (dead cards with these two lands, and Ziggurat can’t activate Mutavault).
There was a lot more in the spreadsheet that I created (including keepable hands with 2-3-4 lands). IIRC, there was a few hundreds lines for the scenarios, and 1000 columns for that many test draws (each column populated with 7 cards randomly generated from the 60 cards pool). Then I used macros to compute 100 times those 1000 test draws, with new RNG in between each, for fresh results. This gave me 100.000 results to get a strong confidence in the numbers, and reduce variance.
If you guys are not ready to keep one-landers, you shouldn’t play 18 lands to begin with, or else you’ll Mulligan far too often (exactly 24.45% of the time). And keepable one landers are not just those with Vial. Like I said, as long as you can build a board by playing a creature per turn for 3 turns (even if just one-drops), that is usually just fine to eventually explode with two lords on turn 4 and 5 (you’ll draw that 2nd land, eventually). And let’s face it, there are 50% more keepable one landers with 12 one-drops than with 8. And these one-landers are better with Virulent Sliver, because it’s a lord by itself.
I’m ready to be proven wrong tomorrow. But I’ve approached the subject with a lot of seriousness and experience (playing Magic since 1994) and backed up my reasoning with maths, statistics, probabilities and hypergeometrics... and even some good results just a few days ago. Not just instinct (which is often misleading).
Win-a-box tournament, 29 players... I missed cut to top 8 by a point, with a score of 3-2.
2-1 vs Vengevine/Dredge : I lost game 1 by a single life (on the play). I could attack for 13, but opponent was at 14. I kept up blockers to survive an extra turn, but to no avail. I won game 2 on turn 4 (mull to 6, no cards from SB), and game 3 on turn 5 (turn 1 Grafdigger’s Cage was removed on T3, but it slowed opponent just enough).
2-0 vs UrzaTron : On the play, opponent assembled Tron on T3, casted Karn and fetched Ensnaring Bridge from the SB. But he still had 3 cards in hand, and I had lethal next turn (T4), with four 3/3s. Game 2, opponent did the same, but he mulliganed to 5 and was down to 1 card when he passed the turn with Ensnaring Bridge. But I curved out Virulent, into Cloudshredder, into Manaweft + Virulent #2, and won on turn 3 anyway.
0-2 vs CoCo Vizier : On the play, but still lost to the combo on turn 3, both games. I mulliganed to 6 on game 2, hoping to see an hate card, but I didn’t (and would have topdecked Sorcerous Spyglass if I could have played my turn 4). Maybe I should have mulliganed even more aggressively to 5...
0-2 vs Arclight Phoenix : On the draw (which is bad in this matchup) and kept a one lander after I mulliganed down to 6, bet only saw land #2 when it was already too late. Game 2, I lost on turn 6 with 5-6 tiny Slivers on the board (never had a lord or a Mariner, and they would have helped a lot). I had to chump block eventually, and opponent then had inevitability at this point. Just for fun, we played a third game, and I won it easily, with Mariner being MVP. Not such a bad matchup, but I got unlucky on the roll and the draws.
2-0 vs Midrange Goblins : On the draw, I won anyway on turn 4, too fast for opponent. Game 2, much of the same.
I’m only disappointed losing to Phoenix. The one-lander cost me the first game, and the lack of Mariner/lords was my demise on game 2. The CoCo Vizier matchup is a bad one for Slivers pre-SB, period. And about unwinnable post-SB if we don’t see our hate cards. *shrug*
Still, after this event, I feel the deck needs some changes.
Virulent is better in theory than practice. It won me a game against Tron’s Ensnaring Bridge, but that’s only because I didn’t already had a lord on the battlefield.
Sidewinder Sliver is probably better than I thought at first. Blockers not only get -1/-1 for each Sidewinder, but also for each sliver. A Soul-Scar Mage can’t block a Sidewinder without dying, and neither can a Mantis Rider block if you have a bunch of Slivers + a Sidewinder. Thus, it grants pseudo evasion and makes attacking possible when it normally would not be.
Diffusion is disappointing most of the time. It’s annoying for Midrange decks (like what? Death Shadow?), but decks like Phoenix and Burn will just ignore it, and Control bypasses it with sweepers.
Modern’s metagame is full of creature-based decks. Some measure of Sentinel Sliver and Syphon Sliver would be welcome in the maindeck, to grant some defense to our offense.
Leeching has no defensive value, and quite bad when we’re not on the play against Aggro.
Adaptive Automaton would be better than Leeching on defense, and even sometimes on offense (it’s not always profitable attacking with Leeching’s help when there are blockers). It’s expensive at 3cmc, and 16 lands can’t support it.
Adding Mutavault #3 and #4 to the deck list would hopefully fix this problem, without reducing the deck’s creature density. These 2 lands could take up the slots of 1 Striking and 1 Sidewinder (both are overkill in multiples).
Unsettled Mariner is also under consideration. It’s the only card in the maindeck that is not actively working with our plan A (beat hard and fast while denying opponents a chance to win fairly).
Here are the two decks I’m considering for next week :
Hi patbou_clone, i've red what you wrote in previous messages. I strongly agree with 99% of what you wrote, but i think that rally the wings can really be a new way of winning the match. Of course, you need the white mana, and this means having 6-7x of gemhide/manaweft, in order not to change the land.
But i think you know a lot better than me the pratical problems a sliver deck must face; for the first time i correctly read the Sidewinder sliver, and only now, after years, i undestand that if you've 3 slivers, enemy creature get -3-3. This is amazing.
I agree as well on the problem of Virulent Sliver that is, most of the time, just a plan B. Sidewinder can easily become the new one-drop.
I've created the same deck of your,except for the cavern of souls (no money), but i'm disappointed that we cannot use Collected Company. In some way, i'd like to put in the deck the already-quoted 6-7x of manaweft/gemhide, in order to cast the collected.
thank you for your posts, i really learnt a lot of this deck by reading them
I don't agree that Collected cannot be played. 5-7 lands that could give green along with at least 4 slivers that gives mana, is a minimum of 9 green mana producers. I think it's up to each person to play it or not because they like it or because they don't like to depend on the randomness a collected can be.
I went to GP from Barcelona, I played slivers, and I could always cast Collected, but my fortune with them was zero. I played 4 out of 9 rounds, just winning the first one against Jund, after matches (losts, not a single SB against them shown up) were Tron and two UR Phoenix. Collected, a part from the first game, were totally screwed up by not finding anything good. But they were totally castable.
But now, I would prefer another way to play something that could gas out the slivers, like Descendants' Path or something like this.
Like I said, it's more of a preference card than if it can be castable.
But i think you know a lot better than me the pratical problems a sliver deck must face; for the first time i correctly read the Sidewinder sliver, and only now, after years, i undestand that if you've 3 slivers, enemy creature get -3-3. This is amazing.
Isnt this the case only if all of the 3 slivers are Sidewinder Sliver? Or do you mean if you have one Sidewinder Sliver and 2 other random slivers?
I’ve tried goldfishing with this list, and there are some possible wins on turn 3, and regular wins on turn 4 (up to 40+ damage, in some cases).
The idea is this : Play 8 mana dorks and 11 one-drops, so you have a lot of creatures to tap for mana. Add a Hasty Sliver (one of the 7 in the deck) to the mix, and you can chain creatures into creatures. Finish of with Rally of Wings to untap them all, and gain +2/+2 because you obviously have at least one of the 8 flyers. Attack for indecent amount of damage.
Collected Company seems instinctively better than Aether Vial in this deck. With so many mana dorks, it’s easy to cast CoCo by tapping our creatures. Find 2 creatures, Haste and Flying in the revealed cards, and you can cast off Rally from these two. If you have two Rally I hand, you can chain one into the other, but make sure you activate all Mutavault that you can, so the manlands benefit from the anthem.
Time will tell, but this deck feels a bit like Elves (chaining creatures into creatures), but with the extra bonus of evasion.
Example of awesome turn 3 :
T1 Cavern + Sidewinder
T2 Sliver Hive + Manaweft + Galerider
T3 Mutavault + CoCo (tap 3 lands + Sidewinder) ; find Blur and Predatory with CoCo ; tap Manaweft and Galerider to play Sinew ; tap Blur to activate Mutavault ; tap Predatory and Sinew to cast Rally ; untap all creatures (including the Mutavault) and attack with everything : 5/5 Sidewinder, 5/5 Manaweft, 5/5 Galerider, 6/6 Mutavault, 6/6 Blur, 5/5 Predatory, 5/5 Sinew = 37 damage, with flying and exactly 9 cards).
But i think you know a lot better than me the pratical problems a sliver deck must face; for the first time i correctly read the Sidewinder sliver, and only now, after years, i undestand that if you've 3 slivers, enemy creature get -3-3. This is amazing.
Isnt this the case only if all of the 3 slivers are Sidewinder Sliver? Or do you mean if you have one Sidewinder Sliver and 2 other random slivers?
Well, sadly I was mistaken. I just double checked the rules on Flanking with a judge. Seems like both the card’s text box *and* The Gatherer are misleading. Even though it says « block a Sliver », which would have triggered all non-blocked Slivers when another one is blocked, the rules on specifically says « block this creature ». Sorry guys if I gave you false hope with Sidewinder. I’ll still play it on my list, if only to have more one-drops to chain spells with Manaweft + Haste.
No, because it’s black. It is already super awkward fetching a Breeding Pool for a Turn 1 Galerider, because it can’t cast Cloudshredder at all. Overgrown Tomb would be the same problem. Temple Garden is the land you want to fetch 95% of the time. Actually, I’m considering running basic Plains and Forest instead of Breeding Pool and Stomping Ground. Or maybe it should be Forest and Hallowed Fountain? That makes sense...
Anyway, I’ll not run a black one-drop and add a 5th color in a deck that’s trying to stay on 4.
I’m not sure what possibilities the new manabase opens up for the SB. It can now support green and white spells, but not very reliably. Any suggestions?
But i think you know a lot better than me the pratical problems a sliver deck must face; for the first time i correctly read the Sidewinder sliver, and only now, after years, i undestand that if you've 3 slivers, enemy creature get -3-3. This is amazing.
Isnt this the case only if all of the 3 slivers are Sidewinder Sliver? Or do you mean if you have one Sidewinder Sliver and 2 other random slivers?
Well, sadly I was mistaken. I just double checked the rules on Flanking with a judge. Seems like both the card’s text box *and* The Gatherer are misleading. Even though it says « block a Sliver », which would have triggered all non-blocked Slivers when another one is blocked, the rules on specifically says « block this creature ». Sorry guys if I gave you false hope with Sidewinder. I’ll still play it on my list, if only to have more one-drops to chain spells with Manaweft + Haste.
Well you got me going thats for sure and had to reread the text several times. I think it comes down to the text on sliver at hand: "all slivers get flanking". That means all other slivers get just "Flanking" and not the first. If that were the case then in fact flanking would stack according to how many slivers you had not by how many Sidewinder Slivers you have.
Just quick notes on what are the best 7 cards combination from my Rally the Slivers deck (list above)...
Basic package : Golden Land*, One-drop, Mana dork, Rally of Wings.
17 to 18 damage with Cloudshredder, Mutavault and One-drop#2 or Mutavault#2.
17 damage with Cloudshredder, any Lord and any Land.
16/19 to 22/26 damage with CoCo, Mutavault and One-drop#2 or Land#3. CoCo needs to find two Slivers, one with Haste, and also one with Flying if you don’t already have Galerider. Depending on if you have One-drop#2 or Land#3, damage goes from 16/19 (Cloudshredder and Mana dork) to 22/26 (Blur and a Lord).
* The Golden Land can be replaced with Temple Garden if your first One-drop is Sidewinder (or Virulent, if you go that way).
17 damage is enough to win if opponent Fetched and played a shock land Untapped.
Unless you plan to a) hard cast Blur, b) activate Mutavault or c) cast CoCo on turn 3, always attack for 1 on turn 2 instead of casting an extra One-drop. That extra damage is important, and you won’t miss a thing (unless CoCo hits only 1 Sliver, which is unlikely with 34 creatures). Otherwise, you’ll need the extra dork untapped on the battlefield to chain spells after playing Blur or Mutavault’s self activation (it will untap with Rally), or to not have it sit in your hand if CoCo fails to see a Blur or Cloudshredder.
The above is with 7 cards. Any additional cards will increase the damage output on turn 3, particularly if you topdeck one-drops (which is why they’re so important, and you shouldn’t go under 10-11).
I tested the deck tonight (1-2, lost to Hogaak Dredge and Elves, won vs Jeskai Ascendency). Fun when you can Combo, but I think the other version of the deck was more resilient. The combo falls apart if the mana dork, flyer or haster don’t survive until turn Alpha, and opponent usually has a few turns to manage it. In the end, it’s pretty easy to disrupt. It’s the kind of deck that would benefit a lot from Diffusion Sliver and Unsettled Mariner. But other than Striking and Sidewinder, there isn’t much cards to cut. And if we cut these, it’s a lot more difficult to take off since we can’t chain one-drops into one-drops. Considering the deck has no interaction, it’s a very bad if we slow it down too much.
Also, the manabase is, to be honest, terrible. With mana dorks to fix our needs, fine. But these soon become prime targets, and you quickly have a very slow hand. You almost know for certain, on turn 3, if you can win or will lose this game.
It’s very sad, because I was high on this version of the deck, and I wasted precious time fine tuning it. The only option to explore is with Dregscape Sliver, to give resiliency to the combo. If I do go back to 5 colors, then better ditch CoCo and revert to Aether Vial (back to old manabase, with only dorks to cast Rally), just hoping playing Mana dorks at instant speed will help to untap with them.
Throne of the God-Pharaoh? Icon of Ancestry? Could these be good for Slivers? Icon is like an Automaton without a body, but is a mana sink and eventual card advantage. Throne is special in the way that even when we tap out our team to chain Slivers into Slivers (thanks to Manaweft and Haste), we can still deal damage with them. I can see a deck more focused on mana dorks and Haste, with full playset of Throne to really pump damage to the dome, while bypassing Ensnaring Bridge and Hexproof (and probably creating lots of tokens with Sliver Hive). Telekinetic Sliver, Hollowhead Sliver and Quilled Sliver (paired with Venom Sliver) could well be used as tapping outlets.
Round 1, W 2-0 vs Mardu Death's Shadow. On the draw. Opponent started off with fetch shock thoughtseize on turn 1 so it was pretty obvious that he was on some sort of shadow strategy. His first mistake was also made. The only options he had were a Predatory sliver or a Dregscape sliver, he chose the dregscape thinking it would end the threat of unearth. We exchanged creatures for removal spells for a few turns and eventually he landed a shadow at 8/8. He had forgotten the dregscape at this point. I had cast a cloudshredder the turn before so I would have flying, I unearthed dregscape, unearthed a predatory and swung over him for the win. The only things I side boarded in were 2 Frenetic SLivers, took out 1 leeching and the hollowhead. I kept an opening 7 on the draw with 4 lands 2 vials and a chalice thinking if I can drop the chalice for 1 this game is over. He ofcouse starts off fetch shock thoughtseize and takes the chalice. My next few top decks were critical, a frenetic was next on top followed by lords. I flipped 2 coins successfully and was an easy victory once galerider joined the party.
Round 2, L 1-2 vs Lantern control. On the draw. My opponent didnt hide anything, started the game off with a land and a ghoul callers bell, immediately telling me he's on lantern. Sadly, no chalices in hand as chalice shuts lantern down hard. He got a bridge in play on turn 4 and that was pretty much it. Sided in 2 harmonic slivers, removing the dismembers. Game 2 I landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 and that was lights out. Game 3, I also landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 however my opponent cast an engineered explosives for 0 to get rid of it. He assembled 3 bridges and a spellskite behind a padeem. I found my 1 of hollowhead and started digging for a harmonic. At his end step one turn I activated 6 slivers to draw cards. I didnt realize what padeem did so I only dug to find harmonic, I should have been digging for necrotic as well. Fail on my part.
Round 3, W 2-0 vs mono red prowess. On the draw. This matchup was not very memorable, my opponent was playing the prowess version running bedlam revelers and honestly my opponent kept sketchy hand both games and ran out of gas both games. In game 2 she had to pay 5 mana for a reveler just to dump her hand to get 3 new cards. I quickly swarmed both games and didnt see chalice.
Round 4, W 2-0 vs Bant Soulherder. On the play. This was a matchup with a buddy of mine and I had never seen the deck before so I was a bit nervous. My nerves were averted though dropping chalice on 1 on turn 2's of each game which in turn shut off his paths and ephemerates. In game 1 he had a little bit of life playing several snow snakes but they didnt get him very far. Chalice was MVP this match.
Round 5, W 2-0 vs UR Phoenix. On the play. I never saw a single phoenix out of this guy in either game. In game 1 I responded to the 4th spell cast with a thing in the ice trigger on the stack and dismembered it (taking 5 by using a horizon land} was pretty much lights out after removing his only threat at the time. Sided in the leylines and warping wails but didnt see any of them. I dropped a chalice for 1 on turn 2 but a few turns later it was abraded. I soaked up 2 hits from a flipped thing in the ice only to win the next turn with a cloudshredder and sinew in play, I cast 2 leeching slivers and swung for a combined 16 while he was at 13.
Round 6, W 2-0 vs jund. I had a lot of fun in game 2 of this match. Game 1 was a non-game as my opponent kept a 1 lander on a mull and never saw land 2, his only spells were 2 hand disruption spells. I brought in warping wail and frenetics. In game 2, my opponent killed everything I played the first 5 turns. It got down to him empty handed with a tarmogoyf (4/5) and me empty handed with a yard with 9 slivers in it (3 were dregscapes). For the next 2 turns I unearthed 2-3 slivers a turn and swung them in hitting for 6 then 8 and taking him down to 5. He then started leaving the goyf back on defense. So I took a turn off and made a token with hive on his end step. My next top deck was a cloudshredder, cast it, activated my mutavault and unearthed 1 sliver for victory.
Round 7, L 1-2 vs humans f/plague engineer. I got game 1 with 3 leeching slivers and flying. Swining with 6 slivers when 3 are leeching is pretty darn lethal. In games 2 and 3 though, my opponent found his side board plague engineer and proceeded to phantasmal image it both games. This list is simply not built to handle such a threat so I scooped on spot. The only thing that could have saved there was a dismember but they were both buried deep in the deck.
I found out later that this humans player won the whole event. When we were paired in round 7, we were both 5-1 and forced to play to make top 8 because we sat 9th and 10th in standings due to poor tie breakers. I find it satisfying when the person who has to earn their spot in the top 8 ends up winning it all.
Round 1, W 2-0 vs Mardu Death's Shadow. On the draw. Opponent started off with fetch shock thoughtseize on turn 1 so it was pretty obvious that he was on some sort of shadow strategy. His first mistake was also made. The only options he had were a Predatory sliver or a Dregscape sliver, he chose the dregscape thinking it would end the threat of unearth. We exchanged creatures for removal spells for a few turns and eventually he landed a shadow at 8/8. He had forgotten the dregscape at this point. I had cast a cloudshredder the turn before so I would have flying, I unearthed dregscape, unearthed a predatory and swung over him for the win. The only things I side boarded in were 2 Frenetic SLivers, took out 1 leeching and the hollowhead. I kept an opening 7 on the draw with 4 lands 2 vials and a chalice thinking if I can drop the chalice for 1 this game is over. He ofcouse starts off fetch shock thoughtseize and takes the chalice. My next few top decks were critical, a frenetic was next on top followed by lords. I flipped 2 coins successfully and was an easy victory once galerider joined the party.
Round 2, L 1-2 vs Lantern control. On the draw. My opponent didnt hide anything, started the game off with a land and a ghoul callers bell, immediately telling me he's on lantern. Sadly, no chalices in hand as chalice shuts lantern down hard. He got a bridge in play on turn 4 and that was pretty much it. Sided in 2 harmonic slivers, removing the dismembers. Game 2 I landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 and that was lights out. Game 3, I also landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 however my opponent cast an engineered explosives for 0 to get rid of it. He assembled 3 bridges and a spellskite behind a padeem. I found my 1 of hollowhead and started digging for a harmonic. At his end step one turn I activated 6 slivers to draw cards. I didnt realize what padeem did so I only dug to find harmonic, I should have been digging for necrotic as well. Fail on my part.
Round 3, W 2-0 vs mono red prowess. On the draw. This matchup was not very memorable, my opponent was playing the prowess version running bedlam revelers and honestly my opponent kept sketchy hand both games and ran out of gas both games. In game 2 she had to pay 5 mana for a reveler just to dump her hand to get 3 new cards. I quickly swarmed both games and didnt see chalice.
Round 4, W 2-0 vs Bant Soulherder. On the play. This was a matchup with a buddy of mine and I had never seen the deck before so I was a bit nervous. My nerves were averted though dropping chalice on 1 on turn 2's of each game which in turn shut off his paths and ephemerates. In game 1 he had a little bit of life playing several snow snakes but they didnt get him very far. Chalice was MVP this match.
Round 5, W 2-0 vs UR Phoenix. On the play. I never saw a single phoenix out of this guy in either game. In game 1 I responded to the 4th spell cast with a thing in the ice trigger on the stack and dismembered it (taking 5 by using a horizon land} was pretty much lights out after removing his only threat at the time. Sided in the leylines and warping wails but didnt see any of them. I dropped a chalice for 1 on turn 2 but a few turns later it was abraded. I soaked up 2 hits from a flipped thing in the ice only to win the next turn with a cloudshredder and sinew in play, I cast 2 leeching slivers and swung for a combined 16 while he was at 13.
Round 6, W 2-0 vs jund. I had a lot of fun in game 2 of this match. Game 1 was a non-game as my opponent kept a 1 lander on a mull and never saw land 2, his only spells were 2 hand disruption spells. I brought in warping wail and frenetics. In game 2, my opponent killed everything I played the first 5 turns. It got down to him empty handed with a tarmogoyf (4/5) and me empty handed with a yard with 9 slivers in it (3 were dregscapes). For the next 2 turns I unearthed 2-3 slivers a turn and swung them in hitting for 6 then 8 and taking him down to 5. He then started leaving the goyf back on defense. So I took a turn off and made a token with hive on his end step. My next top deck was a cloudshredder, cast it, activated my mutavault and unearthed 1 sliver for victory.
Round 7, L 1-2 vs humans f/plague engineer. I got game 1 with 3 leeching slivers and flying. Swining with 6 slivers when 3 are leeching is pretty darn lethal. In games 2 and 3 though, my opponent found his side board plague engineer and proceeded to phantasmal image it both games. This list is simply not built to handle such a threat so I scooped on spot. The only thing that could have saved there was a dismember but they were both buried deep in the deck.
I found out later that this humans player won the whole event. When we were paired in round 7, we were both 5-1 and forced to play to make top 8 because we sat 9th and 10th in standings due to poor tie breakers. I find it satisfying when the person who has to earn their spot in the top 8 ends up winning it all.
This list looks super dope! Congrats for the, even if not perfect, good performance. I have some questions, though:
-What took you to drop mana slivers? Combined with cloudshredder, they seem like a nice inclusion.
-What's the meaning behind Hollowhead? It seems like there are a lot of better options.
-Did you try Unsettled Mariner over/paired with Diffusion Sliver? Protection is worse, but it extends to lands, chalice and vial, and stats are better.
-How well Horizon Lands performed to you?
-Four Dregscape slivers is not a bit overkill? Card is great, but looks more like a 2-of
-Will you continue to play with that exact list, or there are any change you would like to try?
Again, congrats for the record and cool list.
Interesting list
I think its better with 21 lands to make t2 Chalice more reliable
Necrotic is kinda weak at 20 lands with no mana slivers
First Dregscale should be good, 4th - weak
Horizon lands I think are not that great, we have a lot of mana sinks
This list looks super dope! Congrats for the, even if not perfect, good performance. I have some questions, though:
-What took you to drop mana slivers? Combined with cloudshredder, they seem like a nice inclusion.
-What's the meaning behind Hollowhead? It seems like there are a lot of better options.
-Did you try Unsettled Mariner over/paired with Diffusion Sliver? Protection is worse, but it extends to lands, chalice and vial, and stats are better.
-How well Horizon Lands performed to you?
-Four Dregscape slivers is not a bit overkill? Card is great, but looks more like a 2-of
-Will you continue to play with that exact list, or there are any change you would like to try?
Again, congrats for the record and cool list.
Like he said. The community can only benefit from your experience. After that event, would you change something in your deck?
Tom Ross has written an article about Combo Slivers in Modern. Unfortunately, I don’t have Premium access to Starcity Games, and can’t read the whole article or even see the deck list. Can someone help?
So the Hollowhead was actually a really good card the few times I saw it that Saturday. I used it mainly to dig for answers when stalled out, mostly discarding lands to find creatures.
The horizon lands were also very clutch, I cannot count how many times I found gas by using one to draw a card.
I have switched to Mariner for the last week over diffusion, it hasnt been great but not terrible either.
Dregscape as a 4 of was definitely a good call. I won the jund match up because I saw 3 of them in game 2.
Tried very similar list to ekienhol's one, wanting to test new meta.
Very surprised to see how solid it is. Fast, consisten and with a lot of outs.
Swapped one Dregscape Sliver and three Diffusion Sliver for four Unsettled Mariner
Beat 2-0 UW Control and WB Stoneblade, 1-2 against Burn.
-List is very solid, kills fast and has good recovery. All slivers are good. The weakest one is, as far as I tested, Leeching Sliver, but it gives a lot of reach.
-Chalice is, what a surprise, an all-star
-Hollowhead Sliver is surprisingly good, specially when topdecking. Between him and horizon lands, the deck draws a lot.
-Dregscape Sliver also rocks, giving virtual card advantage in grindy matchups while still being a decent beater.
-Unsettled Mariner is a hell of a card. Decent stats while protecting lands, vial and chalice, and being a nice edge against burn and storm.
Considering adding more 1-drops to side/Hivelord or First sliver for grindy matchups. Testing will tell.
Good sensations about this list. Feels powerful and with a lot of options. After refining, could be a decent Tier 3 or 2.
I still miss Manaweft Sliver explosive starts, but we can't have everything, I guess
I tried mariners online before deciding to go with diffusions. I am realizing now that online is a terrible indicator to how a deck will perform in paper because the shuffler is awful online. Perhaps mariner is the right call, time will tell. I am please to report the IQ went well on Sunday, I finished 4-2 and 11th out of 42. No top 8 and no deck posting but a good showing.
Agreed.
If said simulation variables only demand 1 landers to be "viable" then I would call it flawed. Not only do you want to play a 2CMC drop on your second turn or at least 2 x 1 drops to keep up the pace. That 2nd land is so important and its rare you can win with a 1 lander and stick with that land throughout the next few turns. Possible with a vial but other than that I dont see it.
patbou_clone: Personally I appreciate your efforts in proving one version is "the right one" but I do miss more pratical data piloting the deck other than what any simulation could provide. Timba has advocated for his Fast Slivers version and have provided lots of tournament results to back it up with.
Well, 3-0 is something. Have you missed my post? I was away on vacation or would have posted more results. I’ll bring the deck to a big tournament tomorrow. We’ll see... I may be proven wrong.
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
And more of that, please.
If I recall correctly, Jeskai Ascendancy was posting great results with 16 lands in its glory days (2017). Storm and Eggs played with 17 lands. My version of the deck isn’t a combo deck, but like a combo deck it wins by assembling the right cards : a lot of creatures, a lord that grants flying, and 1+ lord that can increase the damage output of all our creatures. It’s easier to get this critical mass with a higher threat density and less lands, as long as our threats are cheap. Thus, it is not unreasonable to imagine a 16 lands version of the deck could perform well, like combo decks that are fine playing with 16-17 lands.
Slivers lose more to mana flood than to mana screw. I’ve won hard matchups against Tier 1 staple decks with just 2 lands in play. But I’ve lost against fringe decks with 8 lands on the battlefield. I’m more afraid of flooding out than being short on lands. And the new London Mulligan rule helps the kind of decks that are built around a combo or critical mass (as long as said critical mass if fine on 6 cards).
Our two-drops lords (Predatory, Sinew, Leeching) are only good if they’re played on a board already full of creatures, and this is more easily achieved with a lot one-drops (that start as tiny 1/1s, but end as scary 4/4 flyers). BTW, our two-drops are *not* necessary for victory, and we *can* win fast by playing just a one-drop per turn (T1 Galerider, T2 Virulent, T3 Virulent, T4 = win with 11 poison counters).
I don’t think the algorithm I used was flawed. The formulas are scientifically exact, and I’ve run all possible permutations of what are keepable hands, from one landers to 5 landers. As an example, 5 landers are keepable if one land is Mutavault (so you have 3 « creatures » attacking by turn 3-4). One landers (not Mutavault or Ziggurat) are only keepable with Vial and 2+ one-drops if I recall correctly (to play 2 Slivers on turn 2, and the two-drops after). Or if one landers (not Mutavault) didn’t have a Vial, then they would only be keepable with 3+ one drops (because the odds of drawing a land before we’re out of one-drops are quite reasonable).
Just so you understand the depth of my analysis, I even considered that hands with 2 lands, that are respectively Mutavault and Ziggurat, are not keepable if the creatures are mostly multiple copies of Cloudshredder and Mariner (dead cards with these two lands, and Ziggurat can’t activate Mutavault).
There was a lot more in the spreadsheet that I created (including keepable hands with 2-3-4 lands). IIRC, there was a few hundreds lines for the scenarios, and 1000 columns for that many test draws (each column populated with 7 cards randomly generated from the 60 cards pool). Then I used macros to compute 100 times those 1000 test draws, with new RNG in between each, for fresh results. This gave me 100.000 results to get a strong confidence in the numbers, and reduce variance.
If you guys are not ready to keep one-landers, you shouldn’t play 18 lands to begin with, or else you’ll Mulligan far too often (exactly 24.45% of the time). And keepable one landers are not just those with Vial. Like I said, as long as you can build a board by playing a creature per turn for 3 turns (even if just one-drops), that is usually just fine to eventually explode with two lords on turn 4 and 5 (you’ll draw that 2nd land, eventually). And let’s face it, there are 50% more keepable one landers with 12 one-drops than with 8. And these one-landers are better with Virulent Sliver, because it’s a lord by itself.
I’m ready to be proven wrong tomorrow. But I’ve approached the subject with a lot of seriousness and experience (playing Magic since 1994) and backed up my reasoning with maths, statistics, probabilities and hypergeometrics... and even some good results just a few days ago. Not just instinct (which is often misleading).
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Still, after this event, I feel the deck needs some changes.
Here are the two decks I’m considering for next week :
4 Aether Vial
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Striking Sliver
3 Sidewinder Sliver
Defense (8)
4 Unsettled Mariner
2 Sentinel Sliver
2 Syphon Sliver
Accelerators (8)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Adaptive Automaton
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
2 Damping Sphere
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Gut Shot
1 Plague Engineer
4 slots to be determined
4 Aether Vial
4 Galerider Sliver
4 Striking Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
Defense (6)
3 Sentinel Sliver
3 Syphon Sliver
Accelerators (8)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Adaptive Automaton
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
4 Unclaimed Territory
2 Mana Confluence
4 Mutavault
2 Damping Sphere
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Syphon Sliver
2 Gut Shot
1 Plague Engineer
4 slots to be determined
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
But i think you know a lot better than me the pratical problems a sliver deck must face; for the first time i correctly read the Sidewinder sliver, and only now, after years, i undestand that if you've 3 slivers, enemy creature get -3-3. This is amazing.
I agree as well on the problem of Virulent Sliver that is, most of the time, just a plan B. Sidewinder can easily become the new one-drop.
I've created the same deck of your,except for the cavern of souls (no money), but i'm disappointed that we cannot use Collected Company. In some way, i'd like to put in the deck the already-quoted 6-7x of manaweft/gemhide, in order to cast the collected.
thank you for your posts, i really learnt a lot of this deck by reading them
I went to GP from Barcelona, I played slivers, and I could always cast Collected, but my fortune with them was zero. I played 4 out of 9 rounds, just winning the first one against Jund, after matches (losts, not a single SB against them shown up) were Tron and two UR Phoenix. Collected, a part from the first game, were totally screwed up by not finding anything good. But they were totally castable.
But now, I would prefer another way to play something that could gas out the slivers, like Descendants' Path or something like this.
Like I said, it's more of a preference card than if it can be castable.
Isnt this the case only if all of the 3 slivers are Sidewinder Sliver? Or do you mean if you have one Sidewinder Sliver and 2 other random slivers?
4 Galerider Sliver
3 Striking Sliver
4 Sidewinder Sliver
Accelerators (15)
4 Cloudshredder Sliver
3 Blur Sliver
4 Manaweft Sliver
4 Gemhide Sliver
Lords (8)
4 Predatory Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Collected Company
4 Rally of Wings
Lands (18)
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Sliver Hive
3 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
4 Mutavault
I’ve tried goldfishing with this list, and there are some possible wins on turn 3, and regular wins on turn 4 (up to 40+ damage, in some cases).
The idea is this : Play 8 mana dorks and 11 one-drops, so you have a lot of creatures to tap for mana. Add a Hasty Sliver (one of the 7 in the deck) to the mix, and you can chain creatures into creatures. Finish of with Rally of Wings to untap them all, and gain +2/+2 because you obviously have at least one of the 8 flyers. Attack for indecent amount of damage.
Collected Company seems instinctively better than Aether Vial in this deck. With so many mana dorks, it’s easy to cast CoCo by tapping our creatures. Find 2 creatures, Haste and Flying in the revealed cards, and you can cast off Rally from these two. If you have two Rally I hand, you can chain one into the other, but make sure you activate all Mutavault that you can, so the manlands benefit from the anthem.
Time will tell, but this deck feels a bit like Elves (chaining creatures into creatures), but with the extra bonus of evasion.
Example of awesome turn 3 :
T1 Cavern + Sidewinder
T2 Sliver Hive + Manaweft + Galerider
T3 Mutavault + CoCo (tap 3 lands + Sidewinder) ; find Blur and Predatory with CoCo ; tap Manaweft and Galerider to play Sinew ; tap Blur to activate Mutavault ; tap Predatory and Sinew to cast Rally ; untap all creatures (including the Mutavault) and attack with everything : 5/5 Sidewinder, 5/5 Manaweft, 5/5 Galerider, 6/6 Mutavault, 6/6 Blur, 5/5 Predatory, 5/5 Sinew = 37 damage, with flying and exactly 9 cards).
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Anyway, I’ll not run a black one-drop and add a 5th color in a deck that’s trying to stay on 4.
I’m not sure what possibilities the new manabase opens up for the SB. It can now support green and white spells, but not very reliably. Any suggestions?
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Well you got me going thats for sure and had to reread the text several times. I think it comes down to the text on sliver at hand: "all slivers get flanking". That means all other slivers get just "Flanking" and not the first. If that were the case then in fact flanking would stack according to how many slivers you had not by how many Sidewinder Slivers you have.
17 damage is enough to win if opponent Fetched and played a shock land Untapped.
Unless you plan to a) hard cast Blur, b) activate Mutavault or c) cast CoCo on turn 3, always attack for 1 on turn 2 instead of casting an extra One-drop. That extra damage is important, and you won’t miss a thing (unless CoCo hits only 1 Sliver, which is unlikely with 34 creatures). Otherwise, you’ll need the extra dork untapped on the battlefield to chain spells after playing Blur or Mutavault’s self activation (it will untap with Rally), or to not have it sit in your hand if CoCo fails to see a Blur or Cloudshredder.
The above is with 7 cards. Any additional cards will increase the damage output on turn 3, particularly if you topdeck one-drops (which is why they’re so important, and you shouldn’t go under 10-11).
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
Also, the manabase is, to be honest, terrible. With mana dorks to fix our needs, fine. But these soon become prime targets, and you quickly have a very slow hand. You almost know for certain, on turn 3, if you can win or will lose this game.
It’s very sad, because I was high on this version of the deck, and I wasted precious time fine tuning it. The only option to explore is with Dregscape Sliver, to give resiliency to the combo. If I do go back to 5 colors, then better ditch CoCo and revert to Aether Vial (back to old manabase, with only dorks to cast Rally), just hoping playing Mana dorks at instant speed will help to untap with them.
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
edit: also in magic? its always about the match up anyways!
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
91 players, 7 rounds of swiss.
Round 1, W 2-0 vs Mardu Death's Shadow. On the draw. Opponent started off with fetch shock thoughtseize on turn 1 so it was pretty obvious that he was on some sort of shadow strategy. His first mistake was also made. The only options he had were a Predatory sliver or a Dregscape sliver, he chose the dregscape thinking it would end the threat of unearth. We exchanged creatures for removal spells for a few turns and eventually he landed a shadow at 8/8. He had forgotten the dregscape at this point. I had cast a cloudshredder the turn before so I would have flying, I unearthed dregscape, unearthed a predatory and swung over him for the win. The only things I side boarded in were 2 Frenetic SLivers, took out 1 leeching and the hollowhead. I kept an opening 7 on the draw with 4 lands 2 vials and a chalice thinking if I can drop the chalice for 1 this game is over. He ofcouse starts off fetch shock thoughtseize and takes the chalice. My next few top decks were critical, a frenetic was next on top followed by lords. I flipped 2 coins successfully and was an easy victory once galerider joined the party.
Round 2, L 1-2 vs Lantern control. On the draw. My opponent didnt hide anything, started the game off with a land and a ghoul callers bell, immediately telling me he's on lantern. Sadly, no chalices in hand as chalice shuts lantern down hard. He got a bridge in play on turn 4 and that was pretty much it. Sided in 2 harmonic slivers, removing the dismembers. Game 2 I landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 and that was lights out. Game 3, I also landed chalice for 1 on turn 2 however my opponent cast an engineered explosives for 0 to get rid of it. He assembled 3 bridges and a spellskite behind a padeem. I found my 1 of hollowhead and started digging for a harmonic. At his end step one turn I activated 6 slivers to draw cards. I didnt realize what padeem did so I only dug to find harmonic, I should have been digging for necrotic as well. Fail on my part.
Round 3, W 2-0 vs mono red prowess. On the draw. This matchup was not very memorable, my opponent was playing the prowess version running bedlam revelers and honestly my opponent kept sketchy hand both games and ran out of gas both games. In game 2 she had to pay 5 mana for a reveler just to dump her hand to get 3 new cards. I quickly swarmed both games and didnt see chalice.
Round 4, W 2-0 vs Bant Soulherder. On the play. This was a matchup with a buddy of mine and I had never seen the deck before so I was a bit nervous. My nerves were averted though dropping chalice on 1 on turn 2's of each game which in turn shut off his paths and ephemerates. In game 1 he had a little bit of life playing several snow snakes but they didnt get him very far. Chalice was MVP this match.
Round 5, W 2-0 vs UR Phoenix. On the play. I never saw a single phoenix out of this guy in either game. In game 1 I responded to the 4th spell cast with a thing in the ice trigger on the stack and dismembered it (taking 5 by using a horizon land} was pretty much lights out after removing his only threat at the time. Sided in the leylines and warping wails but didnt see any of them. I dropped a chalice for 1 on turn 2 but a few turns later it was abraded. I soaked up 2 hits from a flipped thing in the ice only to win the next turn with a cloudshredder and sinew in play, I cast 2 leeching slivers and swung for a combined 16 while he was at 13.
Round 6, W 2-0 vs jund. I had a lot of fun in game 2 of this match. Game 1 was a non-game as my opponent kept a 1 lander on a mull and never saw land 2, his only spells were 2 hand disruption spells. I brought in warping wail and frenetics. In game 2, my opponent killed everything I played the first 5 turns. It got down to him empty handed with a tarmogoyf (4/5) and me empty handed with a yard with 9 slivers in it (3 were dregscapes). For the next 2 turns I unearthed 2-3 slivers a turn and swung them in hitting for 6 then 8 and taking him down to 5. He then started leaving the goyf back on defense. So I took a turn off and made a token with hive on his end step. My next top deck was a cloudshredder, cast it, activated my mutavault and unearthed 1 sliver for victory.
Round 7, L 1-2 vs humans f/plague engineer. I got game 1 with 3 leeching slivers and flying. Swining with 6 slivers when 3 are leeching is pretty darn lethal. In games 2 and 3 though, my opponent found his side board plague engineer and proceeded to phantasmal image it both games. This list is simply not built to handle such a threat so I scooped on spot. The only thing that could have saved there was a dismember but they were both buried deep in the deck.
I found out later that this humans player won the whole event. When we were paired in round 7, we were both 5-1 and forced to play to make top 8 because we sat 9th and 10th in standings due to poor tie breakers. I find it satisfying when the person who has to earn their spot in the top 8 ends up winning it all.
Ended up 5-2 and 15th place
Here is the list I used:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-08-19-counter-slivers/
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
This list looks super dope! Congrats for the, even if not perfect, good performance. I have some questions, though:
-What took you to drop mana slivers? Combined with cloudshredder, they seem like a nice inclusion.
-What's the meaning behind Hollowhead? It seems like there are a lot of better options.
-Did you try Unsettled Mariner over/paired with Diffusion Sliver? Protection is worse, but it extends to lands, chalice and vial, and stats are better.
-How well Horizon Lands performed to you?
-Four Dregscape slivers is not a bit overkill? Card is great, but looks more like a 2-of
-Will you continue to play with that exact list, or there are any change you would like to try?
Again, congrats for the record and cool list.
I think its better with 21 lands to make t2 Chalice more reliable
Necrotic is kinda weak at 20 lands with no mana slivers
First Dregscale should be good, 4th - weak
Horizon lands I think are not that great, we have a lot of mana sinks
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
Tom Ross has written an article about Combo Slivers in Modern. Unfortunately, I don’t have Premium access to Starcity Games, and can’t read the whole article or even see the deck list. Can someone help?
Modern : Burn WR and Humans / Allies / Slivers WUBRG
Dreaming of a competitive Modern Werewolves deck.
1st, GP Toronto Sunday Super Series 2016 : Ally Company RWBG
Top 8, PPTQ Shadows over Innistrad : Boros Humans WR.
and use TopDecked MTG to manage your decks and collection on your Apple or Android device.
The horizon lands were also very clutch, I cannot count how many times I found gas by using one to draw a card.
I have switched to Mariner for the last week over diffusion, it hasnt been great but not terrible either.
Dregscape as a 4 of was definitely a good call. I won the jund match up because I saw 3 of them in game 2.
I am not currently considering going to 21 lands.
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers
Very surprised to see how solid it is. Fast, consisten and with a lot of outs.
Swapped one Dregscape Sliver and three Diffusion Sliver for four Unsettled Mariner
Beat 2-0 UW Control and WB Stoneblade, 1-2 against Burn.
-List is very solid, kills fast and has good recovery. All slivers are good. The weakest one is, as far as I tested, Leeching Sliver, but it gives a lot of reach.
-Chalice is, what a surprise, an all-star
-Hollowhead Sliver is surprisingly good, specially when topdecking. Between him and horizon lands, the deck draws a lot.
-Dregscape Sliver also rocks, giving virtual card advantage in grindy matchups while still being a decent beater.
-Unsettled Mariner is a hell of a card. Decent stats while protecting lands, vial and chalice, and being a nice edge against burn and storm.
Considering adding more 1-drops to side/Hivelord or First sliver for grindy matchups. Testing will tell.
Good sensations about this list. Feels powerful and with a lot of options. After refining, could be a decent Tier 3 or 2.
I still miss Manaweft Sliver explosive starts, but we can't have everything, I guess
WUBRGCoco/Vial Slivers
WUBRGSlivers of the Void
Pioneer
WUBRGCoco Slivers
Legacy
WUBRGAll in Slivers