Here's the draft I whipped up. It's running about 60% on Xmage so far, barring some bad misplays on my part. Learning how to work with Starfield is somethin' it makes people's creature removal live so you've got to be cautious. Lots of times it's better to go for Sacred Mesa if you hit the lock.
Ugh, I keep forgetting that Deckbox doesn't have Starfield yet so I used Sigil as a placeholder. Got me a co uple times when I swapped ported updated lists to Xmage too haha
So with the emergence of grizshoalbrand as a potent and legitimate turn 2,3,4 threat it's time we start looking at answers. Now, I'm not of the opinion that this deck is particularly broken. The turn two is real, but so are answers. Traditionally, I would look to two cards in particular: Rest in Peace and Ground Seal both of which were great answers to a graveyard decks of all types. But now, we live in a post Starfield world and weirdly enough we are pseudo-gy decks ourselves. So I'm less inclined to run those two traditional answers. Now, I'm leaning more towards relic of progenitus and Tormod's Crypt and I can see value in both. Part of me thinks that I draw enough cards between my eidolons and monastery siege, and I'm not crazy about exiling my own gy. This side of me says Tormod's is better. But I he other part of me says, get your card early game and don't worry about your own gy--how many starfield targets can we really expect to have in turns 1,2, or 3?
And of course, the cynical part of me says that both of these are only temporary stalls which only prolong the inevitable.
So what is the answer gents, currently I'm running 2 relics, but I'm am as of yet underwhelmed.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
Leyline of sanctity and ghostly prison and suppression field all wreck gris. Nevermore naming breach or shoal depending, rule of law is good too to stop winning.
Why not just play something like Baneslayer Angel as the kill-con?
Because it dies to removal when nothing would otherwise. Pretty good sideboard card though. I prefer Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine as my resilient lifelinkers out of the board. They keep coming back for more
Elspeth Sun's Champion, Urza's Factory, and Gideon Jura have been my win cons recently. It works out. I think Starfield will remove my need for Planeswalkers though.
Sigil doesn't do anything on it's own. What made me cut it is it was at the top of my curve and I always wanted to cast my win con after my pillows, but if you don't save an enchantment or two to play after it you have to rely on topdecks to make angels... way too slow
Has anyone tried archangel of tithes out yet? How is she?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
No one spoke. There was no need. The threat of the Eldrazi presented a simple choice: lay down your arms and die for nothing, or hold them fast and die for something.
no point running it in pillow fort. It doesn't stop twin and it will turn on there removal game 1. I guess it could be sideboarded but I'd rather play other stuff
Your point on sigil is true but the same goes for starfield you need to have some presence on the board and if you dont have 5 ench the turn you play it you are still in top deck mode which opens your pillow forts to removal
They can only remove it for a turn. It's best not to drop starfield vs. Decks that hit hard unless you can combo off immediately or they can't kill you with a removal spell.
I have Mesa as an alternate since it wins without requiring top decks unlike sigil. That's the nice thing about both starfield and Mesa, they win even if you draw land land land.
I prefer to sideboard Suppression Field and only bring it in when it stops a combo or is strong against them like elves or tron.
Starfield of Nyx does not become a creature itself. So even if they kill some things you get them back. The matchups I want it against though are the BG ones where they try and one for one you with Abrupt Decays and etc. Dropping Starfield lets you bring back enchantments and will grind them out of the game. Not having 5 enchantments just means your best enchantments are safe from creature removal until you're ready to go off.
Only if you play slow. Once you have a lock down your turns should just be bring something back, draw, play something if necessary, and pass. On there turn use mistveil plains or Urza's Factory and block as needed. Should be fast once you have a lock. If someone takes longer than 30 seconds call a judge. If you're on mtgo then just click faster. Only reason to go to time is if you allow your opponent to sit there and take forever or if you yourself are slow
1) I don't like it. Too slow
2) I eventually settled on none of the above. I use 3 Elspeth SC, 2 Gideon Jura, Heliod, and Urza's Factory. When Starfield of Nyx drops I will be cutting Heliod and trimming the walkers down to make room for it.
3) The more activated abilities you have the more I would want to sideboard suppression field.
4) The green eidolon.
After screwing with it for a while I feel pretty strongly that this deck needs at minimum 2-3x Idyllic tutor. It lets you cut a lot of the 4x dud cards like Suppression Field and run 1x maindecks of a lot of silver bullets. While a lot of times you can't afford the tempo loss, the worst thing in the world in this deck is topdecking a dud, because no matter how you build it you're not generating a ton of CA.
Those cards are generally too expensive tempo-wise to tutor for and playing an extra one is usually fine (with the exception of Leyline, which you just want to maximize your chance of having in opening hand for a free 4/4 and thoughtseize protection).
So once you've got the core you can move things like:
Predominately to the sideboard. Anything that costs 2 or less for sure should be a singleton for idyllic tutor unless it has an extremely high likelihood of doing work in any given matchup.
Runed Halo and Porphyry Nodes are specifically cards I just cannot see maindecking more than a singleton anymore. They both come down after the damage is done a lot of times unfortunately.
On another note, I'm starting to think that switching to an UWR deck for both sieges, copy enchantment, and detention sphere is probably correct. Monastery Siege and Outpost siege just together do so much work at filtering through your deck and having reliable alternate modes that are both different. Honestly, Citadel Siege is damned near close to good enough too--it functionally removes a creature the turn it comes down which is fantastic, and it actually deals with man lands which nothing else in the deck can really handle.
1) RG Tron is a very, very hard matchup. Almost think I need more blood moons - I went 2-1 vs. them but the two losses were not even close
2) Any deck with lots of control (cryptics, etc.) is very tough. Not really sure what the answer is since there's no boseiju for enchantments or the like. Bounce is also pretty hard to deal with. I squeaked one out vs. Grixis Control but it was blind luck.
3) Lost a close one vs. Jund. Deck has a hard time dealing with Liliana surprisingly, just the constant discarding is tough to deal with. Might want an other OTV in the board, since it's ridiculous. Leyline of the Void is also bad.
My overall thinking is that my version of the deck is pretty close to competitive but the sideboard needs some work.
Against attrition heavy decks like Junk/Jund/Grixis Control/Grixis Delver, you should be on the Sacred Mesa plan, and just abandon trying to combo or get starfield out. I've been siding out Starfield and bringing in Heliod and Purphorous vs. those types of decks and had good luck. The big problem with Starfield is making their removal live sometimes lets them squeeze out a win--terminate your sphere of safety and swing with the team, etc. Sacred Mesa is really really tough for those decks to deal with.
I don't really think Purphory nodes and Heliod are needed in the Main, but I can see main decking a heliod and sideboarding purph nodes. Wrath of God and Elspeth have done all the board wiping I need and with Path to Exile and Wall of Omens creature decks should be a breeze.
Edit: I agree with everything else you said though about his deck.
Leyline shuts off most combos and burn and discard and becomes a 4/4 and is a huge tempo swing if in your opener. No fewer than 4 and I'm usually happy to see two in opener honestly as long as I have one more piece of action.
Prison will not beat burn or jund consistently w/o leyline and preferably windmill slamming it in game 1 for a nearly free win.
The difference between nodes and chained is killing a gurmag angler and taking ten from it. Maindeck chained gives you a shot against the delve decks which nodes does not. Same with zoo and elves really. They'll just keep playing dudes and kill you 3-5 at a time.
Defense grid.. Eh. I might give that a try but not being an enchantment is sketchy. I'd kill for defense grid on an enchantment.
I can see the argument for pulling some chained for halos or suppression fields depending on meta but if your meta is lots of creature decks like mine you'd rather remove stuff.
I do think that uw might be better here, but so far I have combod out a few times which is pretty sweet.
Edit: was very sad to see city of solitude not legal. Ugh. That would make gw the bees knees.
1 Mountain
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
10 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Windswept Heath
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Idyllic Tutor
4 Journey to Nowhere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Outpost Siege
1 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Starfield of Nyx
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Suppression Field
1 Angelic Chorus
2 Blood Moon
1 Font of Vigor
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 Open the Vaults
1 Purphoros, God of the Forge
1 Rest in Peace
1 Rule of Law
3 Stony Silence
1 Suppression Field
2 Wrath of God
Outpost Siege is a frigging house -- better than endless horizons in some ways, in that it'll let you draw two pieces of action sometimes.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Also, angelic chorus is a bit too cute and not worth playin I don't think
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Ugh, I keep forgetting that Deckbox doesn't have Starfield yet so I used Sigil as a placeholder. Got me a co uple times when I swapped ported updated lists to Xmage too haha
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
And of course, the cynical part of me says that both of these are only temporary stalls which only prolong the inevitable.
So what is the answer gents, currently I'm running 2 relics, but I'm am as of yet underwhelmed.
It doesn't stop Living End like Crypt would, but I'm guessing this deck doesn't have trouble vs Living End.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I won more with heliod and luminarch.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Because it dies to removal when nothing would otherwise. Pretty good sideboard card though. I prefer Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine as my resilient lifelinkers out of the board. They keep coming back for more
Elspeth Sun's Champion, Urza's Factory, and Gideon Jura have been my win cons recently. It works out. I think Starfield will remove my need for Planeswalkers though.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
They can only remove it for a turn. It's best not to drop starfield vs. Decks that hit hard unless you can combo off immediately or they can't kill you with a removal spell.
I have Mesa as an alternate since it wins without requiring top decks unlike sigil. That's the nice thing about both starfield and Mesa, they win even if you draw land land land.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Starfield of Nyx does not become a creature itself. So even if they kill some things you get them back. The matchups I want it against though are the BG ones where they try and one for one you with Abrupt Decays and etc. Dropping Starfield lets you bring back enchantments and will grind them out of the game. Not having 5 enchantments just means your best enchantments are safe from creature removal until you're ready to go off.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
2) I eventually settled on none of the above. I use 3 Elspeth SC, 2 Gideon Jura, Heliod, and Urza's Factory. When Starfield of Nyx drops I will be cutting Heliod and trimming the walkers down to make room for it.
3) The more activated abilities you have the more I would want to sideboard suppression field.
4) The green eidolon.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
The "core" that I find need to be 4x are:
Those cards are generally too expensive tempo-wise to tutor for and playing an extra one is usually fine (with the exception of Leyline, which you just want to maximize your chance of having in opening hand for a free 4/4 and thoughtseize protection).
So once you've got the core you can move things like:
Predominately to the sideboard. Anything that costs 2 or less for sure should be a singleton for idyllic tutor unless it has an extremely high likelihood of doing work in any given matchup.
Runed Halo and Porphyry Nodes are specifically cards I just cannot see maindecking more than a singleton anymore. They both come down after the damage is done a lot of times unfortunately.
On another note, I'm starting to think that switching to an UWR deck for both sieges, copy enchantment, and detention sphere is probably correct. Monastery Siege and Outpost siege just together do so much work at filtering through your deck and having reliable alternate modes that are both different. Honestly, Citadel Siege is damned near close to good enough too--it functionally removes a creature the turn it comes down which is fantastic, and it actually deals with man lands which nothing else in the deck can really handle.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
1) RG Tron is a very, very hard matchup. Almost think I need more blood moons - I went 2-1 vs. them but the two losses were not even close
2) Any deck with lots of control (cryptics, etc.) is very tough. Not really sure what the answer is since there's no boseiju for enchantments or the like. Bounce is also pretty hard to deal with. I squeaked one out vs. Grixis Control but it was blind luck.
3) Lost a close one vs. Jund. Deck has a hard time dealing with Liliana surprisingly, just the constant discarding is tough to deal with. Might want an other OTV in the board, since it's ridiculous. Leyline of the Void is also bad.
My overall thinking is that my version of the deck is pretty close to competitive but the sideboard needs some work.
Against attrition heavy decks like Junk/Jund/Grixis Control/Grixis Delver, you should be on the Sacred Mesa plan, and just abandon trying to combo or get starfield out. I've been siding out Starfield and bringing in Heliod and Purphorous vs. those types of decks and had good luck. The big problem with Starfield is making their removal live sometimes lets them squeeze out a win--terminate your sphere of safety and swing with the team, etc. Sacred Mesa is really really tough for those decks to deal with.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Edit: I agree with everything else you said though about his deck.
Martyr Proc Thread
Esper Relicblade Thread
Standard:
Mardu Superfriends
Turbofog
Prison will not beat burn or jund consistently w/o leyline and preferably windmill slamming it in game 1 for a nearly free win.
The difference between nodes and chained is killing a gurmag angler and taking ten from it. Maindeck chained gives you a shot against the delve decks which nodes does not. Same with zoo and elves really. They'll just keep playing dudes and kill you 3-5 at a time.
Defense grid.. Eh. I might give that a try but not being an enchantment is sketchy. I'd kill for defense grid on an enchantment.
I can see the argument for pulling some chained for halos or suppression fields depending on meta but if your meta is lots of creature decks like mine you'd rather remove stuff.
I do think that uw might be better here, but so far I have combod out a few times which is pretty sweet.
Edit: was very sad to see city of solitude not legal. Ugh. That would make gw the bees knees.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall