Why beseech the queen over Mastermind's Aquisition? Aquisition seems much better, as it also allows sideboard silver bullet shenanigans and you don't have to reveal. I definitely think a black splash is the way forward though. Discard out of the sideboard can win match ups that I think are unwinnable with just mono white.
You know, in my recent experience running this deck on MTGO, this sentiment has some realistic value. Humans is everywhere and I cannot tell you how many times I've tutored a card with Idyllic Tutor just to have it named by Meddling Mage the next turn before I can cast it. In that match up specifically you lose the entire element of surprise that wins you that much needed game 1. Now of course, this is a corner case with just a single deck, but considering this deck is also at the top of the meta game food chain, I think it's definitely worth considering Mastermind's Acquisition. Is the utility of an Idyllic Tutor/Glittering Wish type card worth the extra mana investment? I think only testing will tell, but I can see the case for it.
Unfortunately with control decks on the rise thanks to our friend Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, I think we lost a little favor in the meta game. I was consistently pulling 4-1s in comp leagues (Tron seems to always be there to stop me from nabbing that 5-0), but that win-rate is decreasing steadily as I encounter more and more control decks. Not saying control decks are unbeatable, but as Mark pointed out earlier, not having a Boseiju, Who Shelters All-type card for enchantments makes it an uphill battle for sure.
EDIT: in case anyone's wondering, the reason Teferi can be so oppressive to deal with is because it makes it harder for us to drop key lock pieces when our opponent is tapped out, thanks to Teferi's +1. As if that weren't bad enough, his other two modes also hit our enchantments if we don't set up the hard lock with two Greater Auramancys. It's one of the reasons why I've been gravitating towards Ixalan's Binding over Oblivion Ring/Cast Out/Gideon's Intervention as of late.
Telepathy is the sort of card that is perfect in a true prison list, with a ton of nevermores, halos, ixalan's binding, etc. Type cards. Basically instead of locking them out of winning through damage, you just lock them out of playing the game at all. I have thought about trying a telpathy list before, I think it would work best in an esper list with Zur, since he can tutor very fast.
I think the problem with Telepathy is that it doesn't actually do anything on its own. And in a deck like this, every card really counts (especially in the face of hate). You'd be much better off just playing Peek or Sorcerous Spyglass to see their hands.
But on this note, I've been toying around with a decklist based around 4 Runed Halo, 4 Gideon's Intervention, 4 Copy Enchantment (maybe Clever Impersonator)as a way to lock people out of doing anything relevant in the game. People really don't focus much on enchantment hate, so it's semi-reliable. As with unlife you can lock people out with Greater Auramancy. I didn't try this version much, but it's a pretty satisfying line to victory. Instead of just answering one card in play, you answer every copy of that card they might ever have. The deck really needs a third actual disabler enchantment though, as 8 really isn't quite enough to make the strategy work super consistently.
The main issue with any of these enchantment decks is just speed and consistency. There are a lot of powerful things to do, but all the great stuff costs 3+ mana, which makes for such clunky Modern games.
I ran an WB list I posted a while back that mostly focused on this idea. Blank your opponents win-cons with enchantments while you develop your own. Instead of Telepathy I used things like Thoughtseize and Brain Maggot, then Surgical Extraction to look through their entire library. Against threat-light decks like Death's Shadow it was an easy win, but against decks with a lot of ways to win I always felt like I was playing from behind. It's not that the tools aren't there, in WU we have Runed Halo, Nevermore, Gideon's Intervention, Ixalan's Binding, Meddling Mage (though non-bos with board wipes), and the wide array of copy effects that blue offers. Green gives you access to Gaddock Teeg (which helps tremendously against some the harder match ups like Tron). Stuff like Sorcerous Spyglass and Chalice of the Void, though not enchantments, would help aid the game plan. Depending on which win-con you want to go with (Sigil of the Empty Throne, Karma, Entreat the Angels, etc) the rest of the deck kinda builds itself. A deck like Jund plays on a similar axis, where they went to disrupt your game plan through cheap removal while they establish their own cost-effective beat down. The difference is most of the enchantments we're talking about here cost much more than your average Fatal Push or Path to Exile, which could end up meaning the deck is just flat out too slow. When I ran my WB list through a couple of comp leagues this is what I experienced. Either it was a free win or it was just to slow to keep up with the power most decks are churning out. Most of the time, it was the latter. An Esper version is definitely interesting though and might be worth brewing around.
Don't know about the card. UW I play for Enduring Ideal, I can't use it there as the card draw is pointless post Ideal. For regular Pillow Fort it does two things as you say, but neither are directly defensive and keep you alive when you cast it beyond counting for Sphere of Safety. You need to still have a cheap win con to slip past the blue decks. I guess it looks fine in the luxury win con slot.
I gave the RW deck a run at FNM, beat Humans 2-0, Affinity 2-0, lost to Grull land loss 0-2, most games were close.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
@ Patient Rebuilding: at 5 mana I feel that it is too much mana expensive and keep in mind that it works only during your upkeep (so you have to wait for another turn after you casted). Too slow if you can't play it on turn 3 (so you need the green).
@ As Foretold: at 3 mana it opens up the possibility to circumvent some (off-)colored CC with the added bonus of speeding up some enchantments.
@ Monastery Siege: it is not that bad if you want to dig more into your deck. What redeems this enchantment is its flexibility: generally it is a draw engine (you can discard extra lands, even with relative ease if you play ) or As Foretold or a protection for you and your permanents (likely Ghostly Prison).
Search is awesome as long as you don't main deck rip. I use search in UW ideal, with no rip and with Starfield.
Search is an amazing card.
I think right now a non blue Pillow Fort list should consider maindeck Rip given the fact that any 2cc enchantment does double duty as an enchantment for sphere count and as a devotion count for Nykthos. The majority of decks use the bin to an extent, those that do not are amongst the easier matches, those that rely on it are often super nerfed by resolving one.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I've played probably close to another 100 matches with the deck since then, and I'd like to share some more about where my current list is at and why.
First thing I'd like to say is I have given up on beating tron, like ever. Pretty sure my winrate against tron is somewhere between 10-15% and I've decided I don't care. I would say my current build does well enough against the rest of the meta that I can just try to dodge tron. with that, my sideboard has gone through some changes. I've tried everything from 4 pithing needle, to crucible of worlds, to damping sphere, and the fact is none of it really matters or helps in a meaningful way. So I ended up cutting every card in my board that was for tron, and focused on using those slots to improve my other matchups. With that being said, here's my current list:
So I was running Porphyry Nodes up until a few days ago, and I decided that having Silence in the main gives me a better shot against both aggro and control. Nodes has definitely won me some games but overall it just felt slightly too slow and does pretty much nothing vs control. Taking aggro decks off casting spells in the early game, can buy me just enough time to get unlife+solemnity in place before dying. It's not a great late draw and maybe that makes it not worth it to run just 2, but it definitely can help do something vs control decks and that's a weaker area, so I'm trying it for now. I also considered Mana Tithe for this spot, but I definitely need to have that in my opener to get the use from it which means running 4 and I can't justify the slots for it. I also felt Oblivion Ring was overperforming, so I dropped the 4th Idyllic Tutor in order to add a 3rd.
In the board, I am basically focused on improving the control matchup as much as possible, so I have 4 Defense Grid as well as 2 Grand Abolisher. I know that Abolisher eventually ends up dying, but between abolisher, grid and silence, I''m just trying to find the opportunity to land a Luminarch Ascension without it getting countered or at least get the combo in place or pick off a planeswalker. Luminarch Aschension I added purely because it can come down turn 2 and the tokens it creates equal uncounterable threats.
As far as where the deck is in the meta, other than tron I'd say it's in a pretty good spot..
I have well above average matchups vs humans, bridgevine, affinity, burn, storm, infect, hollow one, mardu pyro, and KCI. Jund is around 50/50 and control is probably slightly unfavored. And of course against tron I'm stone dead. Love any and all feedback, thanks for reading!
The abysmal Tron match up is exactly why I dropped this deck for now, I apparently have the worst Tron match-up luck on MTGO. Which is a shame, because like you said, against the rest of the meta the deck feels pretty well positioned.
I really like the Boseiju, Who Shelters All + Entreat the Angels for the extra edge against control. Do you find it being worth it despite it being a dead card once you're into negative life?
I'm curious as to how your Humans match ups shakes out with your list. I found that match up to also be an uphill battle. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Meddling Mage usually slowed me down enough for them to get under before I could set up. A Ghostly Prison on turn 4 just doesn't cut it.
Have you tried running Ixalan's Binding? I found the card to be pretty great in the deck. It's essentially an Oblivion Ring, but for one more mana you make sure the card doesn't come back. Great against an Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage, Blood Moon, or a troublesome planeswalker like Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. The extra casting cost was more relevant than I like to admit in a lot of cases, so I eventually settled on a 3 Oblivion Ring - 1 Ixalan's Binding split.
Against Jund or other grindy decks I found Heliod, God of the Sun to be a great sideboard option. Not only is he protected under Greater Auramancy, but so are his tokens which allows you to build a bigger board state and win through attrition. Also a valuable line against control. Throw a Pariah in there targeting Heliod and you have a secondary Phyrexian Unlife/Solemnity-esque combo, which can be a good strategy in game 2 when you're opponent is preparing for the Solemnity combo. Silence is something I haven't considered, but I like the idea of being confident in being able to land a key prison piece for just 1 extra mana. I tried real hard to like Grand Abolisher, it just never performed for me, but then again I was jamming this deck back when Jeskai control was the control deck of choice. Maybe with the UW and Miracles lists ticking up, it'll fare better.
Seeing you have some success with this list makes me want to give it a go again. I'll throw it into a comp league this weekend and pray to Heliod that I dodge the Tron match up.
The abysmal Tron match up is exactly why I dropped this deck for now, I apparently have the worst Tron match-up luck on MTGO. Which is a shame, because like you said, against the rest of the meta the deck feels pretty well positioned.
I really like the Boseiju, Who Shelters All + Entreat the Angels for the extra edge against control. Do you find it being worth it despite it being a dead card once you're into negative life?
I'm curious as to how your Humans match ups shakes out with your list. I found that match up to also be an uphill battle. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Meddling Mage usually slowed me down enough for them to get under before I could set up. A Ghostly Prison on turn 4 just doesn't cut it.
Have you tried running Ixalan's Binding? I found the card to be pretty great in the deck. It's essentially an Oblivion Ring, but for one more mana you make sure the card doesn't come back. Great against an Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage, Blood Moon, or a troublesome planeswalker like Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. The extra casting cost was more relevant than I like to admit in a lot of cases, so I eventually settled on a 3 Oblivion Ring - 1 Ixalan's Binding split.
Against Jund or other grindy decks I found Heliod, God of the Sun to be a great sideboard option. Not only is he protected under Greater Auramancy, but so are his tokens which allows you to build a bigger board state and win through attrition. Also a valuable line against control. Throw a Pariah in there targeting Heliod and you have a secondary Phyrexian Unlife/Solemnity-esque combo, which can be a good strategy in game 2 when you're opponent is preparing for the Solemnity combo. Silence is something I haven't considered, but I like the idea of being confident in being able to land a key prison piece for just 1 extra mana. I tried real hard to like Grand Abolisher, it just never performed for me, but then again I was jamming this deck back when Jeskai control was the control deck of choice. Maybe with the UW and Miracles lists ticking up, it'll fare better.
Seeing you have some success with this list makes me want to give it a go again. I'll throw it into a comp league this weekend and pray to Heliod that I dodge the Tron match up.
The thing is, every good deck has matchups that they position badly against, modern is just insanely diverse. It just feels a little worse when MonoW plays tron because you feel like you're never in the game. But if my matchup is 10% vs tron and tron is 6-7% of the meta, in theory it should be something that you just try to dodge and if you don't, take your beats, but you should still be able to be competitive as a whole.
Boseiju actually has never appeared for me at the time needed with also me having Entreat to cast while also playing against a control deck. It feels good to have it in there as insurance but it hasn't actually paid off, but mostly because I haven't run into that much control.
The Humans match I feel is favorable for the pure reason that they usually have literally nothing to undo the unlife+solemnity lock if its assembled. Thalia on turn 2 is annoyinn certainly, but I can usually dodge a freebooter with leyline, and without landing a freebooter, they don't usually know what to name with mage. It's not a walk in the park, but I've found that any creature matchup has historically been a good one for me.
I've never played Binding but i did run gideon's intervention for awhile. The thing is, I don't really care about ensnaring bridge, becaause with mistveil planes I dont actuaally have to kill them I just have to make sure they cant kill me. I run 10 plains so also not too worried about blood moon. The planeswalker argument can matter, but it matters only specifically for teferi, because jace alone doesn't beat you with leyline or runed halo in play. If I was going to run a 4 mana rock it just seems like gideon's intervention is better because it lets me name things that kill me before they are cast and also stops damage if I have a creature beating me down. Binding doesn't save me from someone only having a mainbboard nature's claim as their only out, but intervention does. Which I think is pretty relevant given how many people are running more artifact and enchantment hate mainboard these days.
The Heliod+Pariah combo is pretty interesting, but at 4 casting cost it once again becomes a matter of can I get it resolved vs control, where as luminarch is much easier to get through although slightly less effective.
The thing about tron is that is has a lot of ways to destroy our board and it's almost impossible to prevent all of them. Ugin doesnt care aboutStony Silence, All is Dust doesnt care about Pitching Needle and so on. The only way to be able to beat tron while playing enchantments is playing the Enduring Ideal version of this deck (in my opinion). Tron is still a very tough matchup, but even if opponent menages to destroy your board you still have your lands, and if you resolve Ideal you can still win. Also all of tron's mass removals are noncreature spells, so searching for Dovescape is almost always equal to winning the game.
I definitely agree that enduring ideal has a better chance to win against tron than entreat, but after running a lot of Ideal at first, I decided at what cost? The ideal list to be effective needs to run dovescape, lotus bloom, and form of the dragon, with dovescape and form being basically useless on their own, and lotus bloom only mattering if you have it in the opener along with ideal. I found that in non tron matchups I would rather have more things to protect me that I can actually cast for cheap than those cards, plus entreat has the ability to do something to save you or to put pressure at 5 mana with hard cast or even 3-4 mana by miracling it. Ideal is cast for 7 mana and does nothing until you have it. So I decided that my overall matchups are better using entreat plus more bullets, than running Ideal JUST to improve my tron matchup slightly, because even with Ideal it's still very bad.
Played pillow fort last week. The deck still feels good. I had a hard time against the new UR wizards, mostly because I didn't know the deck. One game I wanted to land a ghostly prison : it got remanded - remanded - remanded - snapremanded. Sure... Of course I never had a Leyline in starting hand to make things spicy ^^
I must say I'm pretty glad I swapped Grand Abolisher for Defense Grid though. They basically don't remove anything that's on board, so a turn 2 Grid is a very efficient way to protect oneself. And it doesn't die to bolt.
I was also caught of guard by a Mardu Nahiri deck. The damn Nahiri is strong against us, and for a long part of the game I was sure I was just playing against a weird mardu pyromancer list. :X
I had to utterly crush a RB Hollow One deck though. Loved it.
It was the first time I playtested a single Arch of Orazca in the main, and despite the nombo with Suppression field it drew me a few cards so that made it way better than a "normal" land in the slot.
Edit : I really like your sideboard plan, Sandmanness. I'll pilfer it I think. I always refrained to play Luminarch because of Solemnity but I guess against control it is actually viable. The only thing I don't like are the two Abolishers but it's just because I like to blank my opponent's removal spells. I have three grids right now but I should go to 4.
How is the Flagstones/Ghost quarter plan working out for you ?
Nice to see plenty of traffic here. Thank you all.
With the aggro decks doing well the deck is well positioned- they basic shell- Halo/Leyline/Ghostly/Spheres/some S field is a strong one against aggro.
RIP and Stony Silence are powerhouses, and RIP is more than main deckable in an devotion/chantment build.
Nahiri has always been super awesomely hard for Pillow Fort, but Nahiri is so rare now. I own the thread for RW prisons (non pillow fort of course, basically Sun and Moon, Landkill, Bridge lists). There are as many players of the deck as there are Pillow Fort or Enduring Ideal players now. The odd UWx lists runs her, but she is not the card she was.
I did find the best thing for Nahiri is to run lots of O ring effects and to run S field. If you can hit an early Auramancy and S field you can sometimes get away with it if you have a pressure card, more so when you have a splash. Tapping out for nahiri in UWx for example sucks if you are Boiling in response.
I always say that Luminarch is a main deck card precisely because of control lists- the only thing that can slip past them are cheap threats. You can slip a RIP, Auramancy and a luminarch down t4, and typically they can counter just one of them. Against really aggro decks such as Infect, Hollow One, Affinity etc. our actual win con is irrelevant, we win because they can't- they get locked out in some way. Against decks where it matters what wincon you have LA is easiest to resolve. Obviously Jund finds it easier to kill than a more expensive one, but they have difficulty with Indestructible gods. You pays your money.
I do not play mono -W, but Abolisher I would not want- switching on otherwise removal like burn is not where I want to be. I use Defense Grid in Legacy, and if I were in mono W I would run that over it, sounds like you have it taped there. Again control lists are easier with a splash, whether Choke from the board, or elements of discard in B, counters in U, or Boil in R, you get more game two options.
Beating tron is sadly almost impossible in mono w, the only lists in mono I have ever seen do it have done it with Ghost Quarter/surgical extraction post board, running Bridges, Crucibles and Trinispheres, which is a long way away from mono W enchantment control. Starfield is the best wincon for Tron decks, basically dropping it and alpha-ing. If tron does peak its head around your playground too often I would recommend R splash, Moon effects and co do not really get you game one often, though they can with lucky S fields and O rings, but in game two Stony Silences and Eidolon of Rhetoric when combined with Blood Moons gives more chance, almost respectable. I use scry lands and evan two Boros garison too, which gives a tad of card selection, and control is not as much of an issue -I run Obliterate, the ultimate in one sided board wipes. I have even resolved it against a tron list with B moon down as they durdled up to 9 lands waiting for a board wipe.
GQ/Flagstones is well known tech in martyr proc, never used it in Pillow Fort myself, sadly it won't work with RIP. I have seen it with Enduring ideal decks.
If solemnity dark depths was possible then Tron would have problems in the format. What a shame.
Hello. After quite a small fortune trying to make Mykthos Devotion work in competitive modern, I've decided to play Pillowfort Prison as a better devotion alternative even if I just let go inadvertently of my playset of Nykthos lands. Don't ask why.
But I am running the older Green-White ramp to Sphere of Safety plus Sigil of the Empty Throne win con.
Does running four of Crumble to Dust help with Tron or at least running Fertile Ground help the deck out race Tron and lock it out?
If you look through the thread and even the primer there is tons of tron talk. I should update the primer on it as things have improved with Damp Sphere and Alpine Moon.
In order to beat tron you have to understand the following.
A Game 1 is always hard, most pillow forts in mono w are under ten pc game 1.At that point boarding for Tron is almost worthless, as you need a huge turn around to justify it. It does not exist in any splash, the best you get is 50 to 60 pc game 2 or 3 if you build with it in mind. You cannot lock tron out at all game 1.
B Dealing with Tron cannot be done with a Crumble to Dust alone, thus it is a bad card on its own. If you can prevent the Tron itself via Alpine or Blood Moon and then cast one it is fine, but you need to stop it earlier. That is a lot of board slots.
C Stony Silence and, bizarely, Eidolon of Rhetoric/Rule of law are two of the best anti Tron cards if you have some mana disruption for them as well. Slowing down their cantrips and disrupting mana is a route to winning. They are sorcery speed and cantrip heavy. S S is awesome fir nerfing mana cantrips and O stone, their escape route from Moon.
D Best wincons for Tron if they are slowed down are Starfield for "oops I win", and Luminarch Ascension.
In Blue Bribery is a great alternate win con, from the board of course, and Lay Claim effects can nick their Karn if you can prolong the game in game 2 and 3.
E Mana Disruption available are as follows
Blood Moon, Ok general card with many applications, but can be too slow. Maindeckable, of course, or side.
Alpine Moon, narrow but quick. Sideboard material.
Dampening Sphere, good v storm too but we beat that, and hurts our Nykthos.
Combo G quarter/field of ruin plus Surgical extraction. Ok for mono W but won't work with Rest In Peace.
Spreading Seas, ok in U splashes, maindeckable.
Obliterate. We can actually cast this it is the only deck other than Enduring Ideal cousins that can do so. Great card as it is incidental to Tron and already there. In g1 it likely won't be relevant often unless you run Moon, it us there for UW and as a lock vs some decks, but obviously only ever gets cast if you have controlled the game with other stuff. In game two this can happen and prompt concessions sometimes.
Crumble to Dust, good with other landkill too, too slow on its own.
There are janky combos available too, hitting cards like Zur's Weirding etc., most are unplayable outside an Enduring Ideal shell.
Aven Mincensor can also come in v Tron as a way of disrupting the land tutors and putting a bit of pressure on. Most decks keep a bit of critter kill in but it can be done.
I suppose the best land to cast an Obliterate while still providing white mana when needed would be Rugged Prairie ? Drmarkb, maybe you can share your WR manabase with us (or possibly your whole list) =)
By the way, content creator Magic Aids posted a video playing a Jeskai version of Pillow Fort.
It makes for a very funny video, and blue enables a lot of drawing plus a funny kill with Keranos. I'm not convinced at all it is better than non blue versions, but it fared pretty well on camera ^^
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
I'm definitely on the wagon with the Solemnity/Phyrexian Unlife combo. I think it's one of the strongest interactions in modern currently. Magic Rainbows (Please let us remember to check our privilege and use his less offensive handle) is one of my favorite content creators mainly for his desire to constantly brew into the format's current weaknesses. I think innovation like that keeps things fresh. And while Keranos, God of Storms/Kefnet the Mindful speeds up his win-con a bit from traditional pillow-fort lists, it seems to do so at the cost of resilience. Plenty of decks out there have answers to slipping out of an unprotected Solemnity/Unlife lock before they even bring in their enchantment removal. I think Magic Aids is on the right track though, there needs to be a faster win-con. The combo is excellent in an aggro-dominated meta, but if you're not winning in a timely manner then you'll still lose to a lot of the format.
If anyone ever figures out a turn 4 win-con with the Solemnity/Unlife combo, this deck will explode.
I'm currently working in a similar direction as the Keranos list, only I went the Porphyry Nodes/Hazoret the Fervent/Blood Moon route. Unfortunately Blood Moon is pretty lackluster in the current meta. But it does feel pretty sexy swinging in with Hazoret and turning redundant combo pieces into burn spells.
I think it's smart to think about brewing with Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. He's proven to be very powerful in the format. My question would be, what do we hold up with 2 mana that would make his +1 viable for us? He works incredibly well in blue control shells with all the counter magic you keep in hand, but how does that translate over to our enchantments? Seal Away is the first thing that comes to mind and lord knows there's plenty of ways to tap stuff down in blue...
Let's not talk about privileges and stuff, because as much as I like Magic Aids' gameplay videos I feel like we're not at all on the same political page. He went through an embarrassing meltdown from my point of view, but at least it's over ^^'
Like you I feel the deck is still looking for ITS finisher because none fits perfectly. The angels are good but kinda slow and fragile to counterspells. Keranos/Kefnet are interesting but require a splash. Assemble the Legion and Luminarch Ascension are a nombo with Solemnity.
I'm not sure about Hazoret either, since it's got no evasion it'll take a looooong time killing your opponent by pinging him 2 damage each turn.
Asking for a turn 4 kill is a little ambitious, but yeah killing by turn 8-10 would already be better than what happens some times with the deck ^^
Adding planeswalkers is an idea but PW : 1/ Are not protected by Leyline of Sanctity 2/ Are not protected by Ghostly Prison and 3/ Suffer from Suppression Field. I'm not sure they'd survive long.
Personnally I'll stick to the Entreat the Angels + Sigil plan game 1 and bring Luminarch Ascensions (+ Obliterate if I go the WR route) against control if necessary.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
French Commander : Yisan Liliana Kytheon Kari Zev Grenzo Karlov Tajic Gitrog Prossh Turboramp Najeela Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro Legacy : Goblins
Hey all.
Not posted for a while.
Whenever I run my r/w pillow fort I do well, but I have not run it for a while, probably early Sept.
Right now my version has some decent top tier matches.
I run two main deck RIPs which do double duty against decks as both bin hosers and enchantment count/devotion boosters. When sphere of safety counts enchantments we can afford to run a coupke of these powerful but narrow cards, even given our limited scrying. They are nonbos with my solitary Starfield, or at least half of it, but they are well placed with so many decks abusing the bin, between Dredge, UW snapcaster, Faithless looting decks like the new Arclight abusing decks, Mardu et al as well as fringe benefits against modular. Even without RIPs Ghostly prison really slows these explosive decks down to the level where they can be locked out. Seal away has improved the deck against explosive decks.
Humans and Bant spirits are both decks that can stumble when asked to pay 6 mana to attack just as Death's shadow used to. A single ghostly makes them develop or attack, not both. Queller is the big difficulty, and going first really helps.
UW is sadly quite hard, I run an Obliterate and karoo lands and to win gane one I normally need to draw that Obliterate and cast it.
Tron is tron, I can beat it game one with Blood Moon, red pillow fort is basically the only one that can beat a Tron deck game one, but Moon is no ensurer of victory, you need a well timed Starfield or Heliod and a lot if luck as they durdle, but really game two is the winnable one where Stony, Rule of Law, and Moon/Dampening Sphere really slow them to a total crawl, allowing a wincon to take over, such as Luminarch Ascension or Starfield. I tend to beat tron more than I lose, which is astonishing for a Pillow Fort.
I hope people are still enjoying pillow forting, right now the meta is not too bad for Pillow forts despite relatively few new cards being produced for us.
You know, in my recent experience running this deck on MTGO, this sentiment has some realistic value. Humans is everywhere and I cannot tell you how many times I've tutored a card with Idyllic Tutor just to have it named by Meddling Mage the next turn before I can cast it. In that match up specifically you lose the entire element of surprise that wins you that much needed game 1. Now of course, this is a corner case with just a single deck, but considering this deck is also at the top of the meta game food chain, I think it's definitely worth considering Mastermind's Acquisition. Is the utility of an Idyllic Tutor/Glittering Wish type card worth the extra mana investment? I think only testing will tell, but I can see the case for it.
Unfortunately with control decks on the rise thanks to our friend Teferi, Hero of Dominaria, I think we lost a little favor in the meta game. I was consistently pulling 4-1s in comp leagues (Tron seems to always be there to stop me from nabbing that 5-0), but that win-rate is decreasing steadily as I encounter more and more control decks. Not saying control decks are unbeatable, but as Mark pointed out earlier, not having a Boseiju, Who Shelters All-type card for enchantments makes it an uphill battle for sure.
EDIT: in case anyone's wondering, the reason Teferi can be so oppressive to deal with is because it makes it harder for us to drop key lock pieces when our opponent is tapped out, thanks to Teferi's +1. As if that weren't bad enough, his other two modes also hit our enchantments if we don't set up the hard lock with two Greater Auramancys. It's one of the reasons why I've been gravitating towards Ixalan's Binding over Oblivion Ring/Cast Out/Gideon's Intervention as of late.
But on this note, I've been toying around with a decklist based around 4 Runed Halo, 4 Gideon's Intervention, 4 Copy Enchantment (maybe Clever Impersonator)as a way to lock people out of doing anything relevant in the game. People really don't focus much on enchantment hate, so it's semi-reliable. As with unlife you can lock people out with Greater Auramancy. I didn't try this version much, but it's a pretty satisfying line to victory. Instead of just answering one card in play, you answer every copy of that card they might ever have. The deck really needs a third actual disabler enchantment though, as 8 really isn't quite enough to make the strategy work super consistently.
The main issue with any of these enchantment decks is just speed and consistency. There are a lot of powerful things to do, but all the great stuff costs 3+ mana, which makes for such clunky Modern games.
I gave the RW deck a run at FNM, beat Humans 2-0, Affinity 2-0, lost to Grull land loss 0-2, most games were close.
@ Patient Rebuilding: at 5 mana I feel that it is too much mana expensive and keep in mind that it works only during your upkeep (so you have to wait for another turn after you casted). Too slow if you can't play it on turn 3 (so you need the green).
@ As Foretold: at 3 mana it opens up the possibility to circumvent some (off-)colored CC with the added bonus of speeding up some enchantments.
@ Monastery Siege: it is not that bad if you want to dig more into your deck. What redeems this enchantment is its flexibility: generally it is a draw engine (you can discard extra lands, even with relative ease if you play ) or As Foretold or a protection for you and your permanents (likely Ghostly Prison).
The second doesn't affect the board at all and isn't worth it imho, it is purely a combo card for 0-mana suspend cards.
The third is outclassed by Search for Azcanta for the most part (unless the second mode is particularly relevant).
Search is an amazing card.
I think right now a non blue Pillow Fort list should consider maindeck Rip given the fact that any 2cc enchantment does double duty as an enchantment for sphere count and as a devotion count for Nykthos. The majority of decks use the bin to an extent, those that do not are amongst the easier matches, those that rely on it are often super nerfed by resolving one.
I posted my MonoW list in January of this year, which was already a well tuned list. That list can be found here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/deck-creation-modern/477657-pillow-fort-prison-white-x-enchantment-control?comment=888
I've played probably close to another 100 matches with the deck since then, and I'd like to share some more about where my current list is at and why.
First thing I'd like to say is I have given up on beating tron, like ever. Pretty sure my winrate against tron is somewhere between 10-15% and I've decided I don't care. I would say my current build does well enough against the rest of the meta that I can just try to dodge tron. with that, my sideboard has gone through some changes. I've tried everything from 4 pithing needle, to crucible of worlds, to damping sphere, and the fact is none of it really matters or helps in a meaningful way. So I ended up cutting every card in my board that was for tron, and focused on using those slots to improve my other matchups. With that being said, here's my current list:
4 Runed Halo
4 Suppression Field
4 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Solemnity
3 Idyllic Tutor
3 Entreat the Angels
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Greater Auramancy
2 Silence
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
10 Plains
4 Defense Grid
2 Rest in Peace
2 Greater Auramancy
2 Stony Silence
2 Grand Abolisher
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Nevermore
So I was running Porphyry Nodes up until a few days ago, and I decided that having Silence in the main gives me a better shot against both aggro and control. Nodes has definitely won me some games but overall it just felt slightly too slow and does pretty much nothing vs control. Taking aggro decks off casting spells in the early game, can buy me just enough time to get unlife+solemnity in place before dying. It's not a great late draw and maybe that makes it not worth it to run just 2, but it definitely can help do something vs control decks and that's a weaker area, so I'm trying it for now. I also considered Mana Tithe for this spot, but I definitely need to have that in my opener to get the use from it which means running 4 and I can't justify the slots for it. I also felt Oblivion Ring was overperforming, so I dropped the 4th Idyllic Tutor in order to add a 3rd.
In the board, I am basically focused on improving the control matchup as much as possible, so I have 4 Defense Grid as well as 2 Grand Abolisher. I know that Abolisher eventually ends up dying, but between abolisher, grid and silence, I''m just trying to find the opportunity to land a Luminarch Ascension without it getting countered or at least get the combo in place or pick off a planeswalker. Luminarch Aschension I added purely because it can come down turn 2 and the tokens it creates equal uncounterable threats.
As far as where the deck is in the meta, other than tron I'd say it's in a pretty good spot..
I have well above average matchups vs humans, bridgevine, affinity, burn, storm, infect, hollow one, mardu pyro, and KCI. Jund is around 50/50 and control is probably slightly unfavored. And of course against tron I'm stone dead. Love any and all feedback, thanks for reading!
I really like the Boseiju, Who Shelters All + Entreat the Angels for the extra edge against control. Do you find it being worth it despite it being a dead card once you're into negative life?
I'm curious as to how your Humans match ups shakes out with your list. I found that match up to also be an uphill battle. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben + Meddling Mage usually slowed me down enough for them to get under before I could set up. A Ghostly Prison on turn 4 just doesn't cut it.
Have you tried running Ixalan's Binding? I found the card to be pretty great in the deck. It's essentially an Oblivion Ring, but for one more mana you make sure the card doesn't come back. Great against an Ensnaring Bridge, Meddling Mage, Blood Moon, or a troublesome planeswalker like Jace, The Mind Sculptor or Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. The extra casting cost was more relevant than I like to admit in a lot of cases, so I eventually settled on a 3 Oblivion Ring - 1 Ixalan's Binding split.
Against Jund or other grindy decks I found Heliod, God of the Sun to be a great sideboard option. Not only is he protected under Greater Auramancy, but so are his tokens which allows you to build a bigger board state and win through attrition. Also a valuable line against control. Throw a Pariah in there targeting Heliod and you have a secondary Phyrexian Unlife/Solemnity-esque combo, which can be a good strategy in game 2 when you're opponent is preparing for the Solemnity combo.
Silence is something I haven't considered, but I like the idea of being confident in being able to land a key prison piece for just 1 extra mana. I tried real hard to like Grand Abolisher, it just never performed for me, but then again I was jamming this deck back when Jeskai control was the control deck of choice. Maybe with the UW and Miracles lists ticking up, it'll fare better.
Seeing you have some success with this list makes me want to give it a go again. I'll throw it into a comp league this weekend and pray to Heliod that I dodge the Tron match up.
The thing is, every good deck has matchups that they position badly against, modern is just insanely diverse. It just feels a little worse when MonoW plays tron because you feel like you're never in the game. But if my matchup is 10% vs tron and tron is 6-7% of the meta, in theory it should be something that you just try to dodge and if you don't, take your beats, but you should still be able to be competitive as a whole.
Boseiju actually has never appeared for me at the time needed with also me having Entreat to cast while also playing against a control deck. It feels good to have it in there as insurance but it hasn't actually paid off, but mostly because I haven't run into that much control.
The Humans match I feel is favorable for the pure reason that they usually have literally nothing to undo the unlife+solemnity lock if its assembled. Thalia on turn 2 is annoyinn certainly, but I can usually dodge a freebooter with leyline, and without landing a freebooter, they don't usually know what to name with mage. It's not a walk in the park, but I've found that any creature matchup has historically been a good one for me.
I've never played Binding but i did run gideon's intervention for awhile. The thing is, I don't really care about ensnaring bridge, becaause with mistveil planes I dont actuaally have to kill them I just have to make sure they cant kill me. I run 10 plains so also not too worried about blood moon. The planeswalker argument can matter, but it matters only specifically for teferi, because jace alone doesn't beat you with leyline or runed halo in play. If I was going to run a 4 mana rock it just seems like gideon's intervention is better because it lets me name things that kill me before they are cast and also stops damage if I have a creature beating me down. Binding doesn't save me from someone only having a mainbboard nature's claim as their only out, but intervention does. Which I think is pretty relevant given how many people are running more artifact and enchantment hate mainboard these days.
The Heliod+Pariah combo is pretty interesting, but at 4 casting cost it once again becomes a matter of can I get it resolved vs control, where as luminarch is much easier to get through although slightly less effective.
I definitely agree that enduring ideal has a better chance to win against tron than entreat, but after running a lot of Ideal at first, I decided at what cost? The ideal list to be effective needs to run dovescape, lotus bloom, and form of the dragon, with dovescape and form being basically useless on their own, and lotus bloom only mattering if you have it in the opener along with ideal. I found that in non tron matchups I would rather have more things to protect me that I can actually cast for cheap than those cards, plus entreat has the ability to do something to save you or to put pressure at 5 mana with hard cast or even 3-4 mana by miracling it. Ideal is cast for 7 mana and does nothing until you have it. So I decided that my overall matchups are better using entreat plus more bullets, than running Ideal JUST to improve my tron matchup slightly, because even with Ideal it's still very bad.
I must say I'm pretty glad I swapped Grand Abolisher for Defense Grid though. They basically don't remove anything that's on board, so a turn 2 Grid is a very efficient way to protect oneself. And it doesn't die to bolt.
I was also caught of guard by a Mardu Nahiri deck. The damn Nahiri is strong against us, and for a long part of the game I was sure I was just playing against a weird mardu pyromancer list. :X
I had to utterly crush a RB Hollow One deck though. Loved it.
It was the first time I playtested a single Arch of Orazca in the main, and despite the nombo with Suppression field it drew me a few cards so that made it way better than a "normal" land in the slot.
Edit : I really like your sideboard plan, Sandmanness. I'll pilfer it I think. I always refrained to play Luminarch because of Solemnity but I guess against control it is actually viable. The only thing I don't like are the two Abolishers but it's just because I like to blank my opponent's removal spells. I have three grids right now but I should go to 4.
How is the Flagstones/Ghost quarter plan working out for you ?
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
With the aggro decks doing well the deck is well positioned- they basic shell- Halo/Leyline/Ghostly/Spheres/some S field is a strong one against aggro.
RIP and Stony Silence are powerhouses, and RIP is more than main deckable in an devotion/chantment build.
Nahiri has always been super awesomely hard for Pillow Fort, but Nahiri is so rare now. I own the thread for RW prisons (non pillow fort of course, basically Sun and Moon, Landkill, Bridge lists). There are as many players of the deck as there are Pillow Fort or Enduring Ideal players now. The odd UWx lists runs her, but she is not the card she was.
I did find the best thing for Nahiri is to run lots of O ring effects and to run S field. If you can hit an early Auramancy and S field you can sometimes get away with it if you have a pressure card, more so when you have a splash. Tapping out for nahiri in UWx for example sucks if you are Boiling in response.
I always say that Luminarch is a main deck card precisely because of control lists- the only thing that can slip past them are cheap threats. You can slip a RIP, Auramancy and a luminarch down t4, and typically they can counter just one of them. Against really aggro decks such as Infect, Hollow One, Affinity etc. our actual win con is irrelevant, we win because they can't- they get locked out in some way. Against decks where it matters what wincon you have LA is easiest to resolve. Obviously Jund finds it easier to kill than a more expensive one, but they have difficulty with Indestructible gods. You pays your money.
I do not play mono -W, but Abolisher I would not want- switching on otherwise removal like burn is not where I want to be. I use Defense Grid in Legacy, and if I were in mono W I would run that over it, sounds like you have it taped there. Again control lists are easier with a splash, whether Choke from the board, or elements of discard in B, counters in U, or Boil in R, you get more game two options.
Beating tron is sadly almost impossible in mono w, the only lists in mono I have ever seen do it have done it with Ghost Quarter/surgical extraction post board, running Bridges, Crucibles and Trinispheres, which is a long way away from mono W enchantment control. Starfield is the best wincon for Tron decks, basically dropping it and alpha-ing. If tron does peak its head around your playground too often I would recommend R splash, Moon effects and co do not really get you game one often, though they can with lucky S fields and O rings, but in game two Stony Silences and Eidolon of Rhetoric when combined with Blood Moons gives more chance, almost respectable. I use scry lands and evan two Boros garison too, which gives a tad of card selection, and control is not as much of an issue -I run Obliterate, the ultimate in one sided board wipes. I have even resolved it against a tron list with B moon down as they durdled up to 9 lands waiting for a board wipe.
GQ/Flagstones is well known tech in martyr proc, never used it in Pillow Fort myself, sadly it won't work with RIP. I have seen it with Enduring ideal decks.
If solemnity dark depths was possible then Tron would have problems in the format. What a shame.
Game 1 final board state after OP put 30 power in play to swing with on turn 3:
Game 2 final board state:
OP was slightly salty...
But I am running the older Green-White ramp to Sphere of Safety plus Sigil of the Empty Throne win con.
Does running four of Crumble to Dust help with Tron or at least running Fertile Ground help the deck out race Tron and lock it out?
In order to beat tron you have to understand the following.
A Game 1 is always hard, most pillow forts in mono w are under ten pc game 1.At that point boarding for Tron is almost worthless, as you need a huge turn around to justify it. It does not exist in any splash, the best you get is 50 to 60 pc game 2 or 3 if you build with it in mind. You cannot lock tron out at all game 1.
B Dealing with Tron cannot be done with a Crumble to Dust alone, thus it is a bad card on its own. If you can prevent the Tron itself via Alpine or Blood Moon and then cast one it is fine, but you need to stop it earlier. That is a lot of board slots.
C Stony Silence and, bizarely, Eidolon of Rhetoric/Rule of law are two of the best anti Tron cards if you have some mana disruption for them as well. Slowing down their cantrips and disrupting mana is a route to winning. They are sorcery speed and cantrip heavy. S S is awesome fir nerfing mana cantrips and O stone, their escape route from Moon.
D Best wincons for Tron if they are slowed down are Starfield for "oops I win", and Luminarch Ascension.
In Blue Bribery is a great alternate win con, from the board of course, and Lay Claim effects can nick their Karn if you can prolong the game in game 2 and 3.
E Mana Disruption available are as follows
Blood Moon, Ok general card with many applications, but can be too slow. Maindeckable, of course, or side.
Alpine Moon, narrow but quick. Sideboard material.
Dampening Sphere, good v storm too but we beat that, and hurts our Nykthos.
Combo G quarter/field of ruin plus Surgical extraction. Ok for mono W but won't work with Rest In Peace.
Spreading Seas, ok in U splashes, maindeckable.
Obliterate. We can actually cast this it is the only deck other than Enduring Ideal cousins that can do so. Great card as it is incidental to Tron and already there. In g1 it likely won't be relevant often unless you run Moon, it us there for UW and as a lock vs some decks, but obviously only ever gets cast if you have controlled the game with other stuff. In game two this can happen and prompt concessions sometimes.
Crumble to Dust, good with other landkill too, too slow on its own.
There are janky combos available too, hitting cards like Zur's Weirding etc., most are unplayable outside an Enduring Ideal shell.
Aven Mincensor can also come in v Tron as a way of disrupting the land tutors and putting a bit of pressure on. Most decks keep a bit of critter kill in but it can be done.
By the way, content creator Magic Aids posted a video playing a Jeskai version of Pillow Fort.
It makes for a very funny video, and blue enables a lot of drawing plus a funny kill with Keranos. I'm not convinced at all it is better than non blue versions, but it fared pretty well on camera ^^
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
If anyone ever figures out a turn 4 win-con with the Solemnity/Unlife combo, this deck will explode.
I'm currently working in a similar direction as the Keranos list, only I went the Porphyry Nodes/Hazoret the Fervent/Blood Moon route. Unfortunately Blood Moon is pretty lackluster in the current meta. But it does feel pretty sexy swinging in with Hazoret and turning redundant combo pieces into burn spells.
Sigil of the Empty Throne might also work but the deck probably needs more enchantments, which is possible by adding
Ghostly Prison/Sphere of Safety and Journey to Nowhere/Seal Away/Detention Sphere over some of the cantrips.
Some PW's like: Teferi, Hero of Dominaria and Elspeth, Sun's Champion come to mind as well.
My first thought was Assemble the Legion but it unfortunetly doesn't work with Solemnity, same as Luminarch Ascension.
Like you I feel the deck is still looking for ITS finisher because none fits perfectly. The angels are good but kinda slow and fragile to counterspells. Keranos/Kefnet are interesting but require a splash. Assemble the Legion and Luminarch Ascension are a nombo with Solemnity.
I'm not sure about Hazoret either, since it's got no evasion it'll take a looooong time killing your opponent by pinging him 2 damage each turn.
Asking for a turn 4 kill is a little ambitious, but yeah killing by turn 8-10 would already be better than what happens some times with the deck ^^
Adding planeswalkers is an idea but PW : 1/ Are not protected by Leyline of Sanctity 2/ Are not protected by Ghostly Prison and 3/ Suffer from Suppression Field. I'm not sure they'd survive long.
Personnally I'll stick to the Entreat the Angels + Sigil plan game 1 and bring Luminarch Ascensions (+ Obliterate if I go the WR route) against control if necessary.
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
Not posted for a while.
Whenever I run my r/w pillow fort I do well, but I have not run it for a while, probably early Sept.
Right now my version has some decent top tier matches.
I run two main deck RIPs which do double duty against decks as both bin hosers and enchantment count/devotion boosters. When sphere of safety counts enchantments we can afford to run a coupke of these powerful but narrow cards, even given our limited scrying. They are nonbos with my solitary Starfield, or at least half of it, but they are well placed with so many decks abusing the bin, between Dredge, UW snapcaster, Faithless looting decks like the new Arclight abusing decks, Mardu et al as well as fringe benefits against modular. Even without RIPs Ghostly prison really slows these explosive decks down to the level where they can be locked out. Seal away has improved the deck against explosive decks.
Humans and Bant spirits are both decks that can stumble when asked to pay 6 mana to attack just as Death's shadow used to. A single ghostly makes them develop or attack, not both. Queller is the big difficulty, and going first really helps.
UW is sadly quite hard, I run an Obliterate and karoo lands and to win gane one I normally need to draw that Obliterate and cast it.
Tron is tron, I can beat it game one with Blood Moon, red pillow fort is basically the only one that can beat a Tron deck game one, but Moon is no ensurer of victory, you need a well timed Starfield or Heliod and a lot if luck as they durdle, but really game two is the winnable one where Stony, Rule of Law, and Moon/Dampening Sphere really slow them to a total crawl, allowing a wincon to take over, such as Luminarch Ascension or Starfield. I tend to beat tron more than I lose, which is astonishing for a Pillow Fort.
I hope people are still enjoying pillow forting, right now the meta is not too bad for Pillow forts despite relatively few new cards being produced for us.