At the moment this the deck Idea I have, I am thinking on mainboard the Leonin Relic-Warder for Theros, a part of me wants to add Honor of the Pure as there are many many mutilate and the like where I play.
Also no aether vials at this point as those are scare in my area.
You definitely want to be running 4 AEther Vials. As I've learned you want 4 or 0 of it. Also, why are you running Flagstones? Unless you have Knight of the Reliquary or multiples of it to Legend rule yourself, it doesn't do anything in the deck. I would suggest running the full 4 Cavern of Souls. 4 Stony Silence is a lot of sideboard hate for Affinity. Maybe go down to 2 and look at including Leonin Arbiter or Aven Mindcensor.
I've already added the third Aether Vial and I'll look for another.
The single Flagstone doesn't really do anything but produce white mana. It doesn't hurt anything. I've got more Caverns around, in other decks. I'm a little leery of running too many lands that don't make white for spells. I suppose I could ditch the Flares for one of the one-cc removal spells.
Aven Mindcensor is definitely something worth looking into.
Fiendslayer Paladin > Mirran Crusader (Great knight but to easy target )
Day of Judgment > Wrath of God (Knight of the Holy Nimbus live:))
Angelic Overseer ? Human Knight's deck + terminator
Does Angelic Overseer works here? I'm not sure if she would be good enough even if she manages to get hexproof and indestructibility.
pzbw7z is right, 19 lands is not enough, even without the 5 drop Angelic Overseer.
The mods have requested that I update the Primer and decklist somehow, and to be honest I agree it has been long overdue. As such I'll be grateful if anyone is willing to share matchups or decklists, sure I have an idea what I'm going to change or update but it'll be great to have more information from you fellow Knight fans out there.
So some of the things I'm gonna update will be:
Puresteel Knights deck, Haakon Darth Knights, GW Vial knights and the Mono white Vial and non-vial knights list. Honestly I don't think there is going to be much changes since the core of the deck is always going to be Knight creatures (maybe except Puresteel Knights).
I think that's all you would need to list. I've seen several people pushing for Human Knights in the mono-white version, but it feels lackluster against the spread of decks in modern at the moment.
I've tested a Boros Knights list and although I don't favour it as much as I did Selesnya, I think that it has potential. Have you tried a list of that nature at all?
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Without Aether vial the deck is fairly slow, the lack of armageddon hurts WW in general against control. Also the lack of equipment hurts (just got back so not enough mojo... and those damn chocobo knights are hard as hell to find).
I also agree full White decks seems lackluster I am still crossing my fingers for a few more knights, I am thinking on use that pegasus of Theros instead of the cat knight
Without Aether vial the deck is fairly slow, the lack of armageddon hurts WW in general against control. Also the lack of equipment hurts (just got back so not enough mojo... and those damn chocobo knights are hard as hell to find).
I also agree full White decks seems lackluster I am still crossing my fingers for a few more knights, I am thinking on use that pegasus of Theros instead of the cat knight
I apologize! I haven't been focusing on responding to people with their decks since so many others had been doing it.
There are a few weaknesses that mono-white knights have:
1. Board wipes and sweepers (Knight Exemplar aids with this, but is not a fix all against things like Bonfire of the Damned or Terminus).
2. Chump blocking/opponents getting bigger creatures down
3. Spot Removal
A great fix that I've seen included in many lists (including my own) for this is two fold:
1. Giving them trample/unblockable.
2. Protection from the color attempting to destroy/remove your critter.
Brave the Elements does both of these things in a simple 1 mana cost card. I would highly recommend including it. I know you said you don't have Aether Vial or access to it, but I would say that is the next step on your need-to-obtain list of cards to help the deck.
Lastly, Angelic Destiny is a pretty good card, but not in a format full of spot removal... I feel like it would end up being a hollow mana-sink quite often.
Best of luck with the deck! If you have any questions about what I said, respond and I'll hit you up with additional feedback (:
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Some recent results from playing my Naya Knights deck against BUG Midrange.
Game 1 is a breeze. Resolving an Aether Vial or Mirran Crusader is basically game over. The eleven removal spells eat away any board opposition. Watch out for Engineered Explosives and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 is mostly the same. Bringing in Thalia and Gaddock Teeg hurt pretty hard and Mirran Crusader seals the deal. Watch out for Engineered Explosives, Thoughtseize and only make sure you get both Knight Exemplars in while they're tapped out. Cavern of Souls is an all-star here.
Without Aether vial the deck is fairly slow, the lack of armageddon hurts WW in general against control. Also the lack of equipment hurts (just got back so not enough mojo... and those damn chocobo knights are hard as hell to find).
I also agree full White decks seems lackluster I am still crossing my fingers for a few more knights, I am thinking on use that pegasus of Theros instead of the cat knight
LOLzzz, sorry about that Xelloss, luckily JPoJohnson replied you, like him I thought someone else had replied you haha
Yup as pointed out Mono White is really lacking at the moment, right now I like the GW build because of Rancor and Qasali Pridemage, and it helps that Horizon Canopy makes casting those 2 easier. Look at Horizon Canopy prices now...it is insane because it's that good, the utility and advantage it provides :thumbsup:.
Some recent results from playing my Naya Knights deck against BUG Midrange.
Game 1 is a breeze. Resolving an Aether Vial or Mirran Crusader is basically game over. The eleven removal spells eat away any board opposition. Watch out for Engineered Explosives and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 is mostly the same. Bringing in Thalia and Gaddock Teeg hurt pretty hard and Mirran Crusader seals the deal. Watch out for Engineered Explosives, Thoughtseize and only make sure you get both Knight Exemplars in while they're tapped out. Cavern of Souls is an all-star here.
Game 3 never happened.
More results to come against other decks.
Nice match reports, good things you pointed out on some of the things to watch out for. Thanks for this details, I will add into the primer and credit you for it ;).
Just wish to add that against stuffs like Engineered Explosives - I encountered it against Gifts Ungiven deck, that is when Aether Vial is so important since even if we don't have a Knight Exemplar in our hand, a Vial sitting on 3 counters is enough to make the Gifts player play in a more conservative way, and that usually plays into our hand :thumbsup:.
I guess I do need to do some more testing of darth knights, don't I? Anyone have any ideas on which matches I should test more of in the tier one meta?
I guess I do need to do some more testing of darth knights, don't I? Anyone have any ideas on which matches I should test more of in the tier one meta?
But of course man, and it is always a blast to play with Darth Knights ;).
Maybe against Tron? Below is some of the decks my friends are playing, so they are pretty much covered, but it will be great if we can get more reviews or opinions on these matchups as well.
Gifts Ungiven (Esper) deck
Kiki Jiki Pod
UWR Delver Tempo
UWR Mid range control
BURN
BWG Control
BTW my Darth Knights version doesn't run Dark Confidant.
As far as subbing out Elspeth Tirel goes... I'll probably just find a one of like White Orchard that I can fit in there. Phyrexian Metamorph is a fun suggestion as well.
Edit: Looks like we posted at the same time Sesordereht. Any chance we can get a matchup review? I'm interested about the Merfolk game and the Elves particulary. (:
No sideboard yet, I'll work on that as this upcoming Friday approaches. Thoughts?
@ JPoJohnson
I pulled this post out from a few pages ago, is this decklist close to the one you are using recently? I don't play Mono-White Knights and so perhaps you could help give better suggestions here on an optimal Mono-white list ;).
2-1 against Combo Elves
1-2 against Merfolk
2-1 against BW Hatebears
2-0 against a Standard Rock deck.
All Stars: Knight of Meadowgrain - Lifelink was very relevant in both the BW Hatebears match as well as the Merfolk match. I managed to outrace the Fish thanks to it in one game, as well as keep myself off critical life against 2 Deathrites against BW Hatebears.
Brave the Elements - Be it saving my creature from getting Path'd or for the final alpha strike, I was always happy to see this card. Glad that I decided to bring it up to a 4-of because I won at least half my games on a BtE'd alpha.
Aether Vial - I can't believe I almost took these out for an equipment package! Flooding the board with knights for early pressure is as important as anything for the weenie deck. Only complaint is that it's an awkward topdeck.
Knight of the White Orchid - I've always hit 4+ mana thanks to this guy. Considering I'm running 20 lands, getting off those double Knight drops later on (without Vial) was great. Starting games off on the draw with 1 land and this guy in hand worked out each time too.
Leonin Skyhunter - Never has evasion been more relevant. The early beats from these guys are great to set up the final alpha later. With the first strikers holding the fort these guys set up the win.
Mirran Crusader - Because whoa boy does it lay the smack down. Amazing with anthems online.
Not much action:
Knight of the Holy Nimbus - I didn't get much out of him. Maybe I couldn't appreciate it, but it did kinda screw with some of my opponent's tempo just trying to get rid of him, and it was the first thing path'd in my BW Hatebears match, so I'm sure it must have meant something. Maybe he's really just more for defense, but I can see cutting him down to 2 or 3.
Sword of War and Peace - Didn't come out at all, and I feel like if it did, it would be too slow.
Honestly not a lot to say for the tournament report, the deck is very relaxing to play. Play dudes, turn them sideways, don't make any bad combat decisions. Each game pretty much played out the same way. I can see myself swapping in more first striking knights, possibly in the position of Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Perhaps Sigiled Paladin? I don't know. But having that wall of first strike up was great for the defense.
Feel free to ask any questions
Sesordereht still reading this thread? I was scanning through the previous pages and came across this post. I'll probably could use this for reference, plenty of useful stuffs :thumbsup:. Hope you have new inputs to share with us along the way.
Nabbydian you are welcome to any and all of the information I have gathered on Knights on my Tapped Out Modern Knights deck. There is a ton of data here which may prove valuable for you. I have detailed almost every card relevant to a mono-white build with an explanation for each choice. I haven't been to a Modern tournament for a bit and have since been playing some more casual and friendly games. My current, semi-casual (but still competitive) list is:
My rationale here is the somewhat retired "X-Blade" approach, where you compliment cost-effective creatures and removal with powerful equipment and/or enchantments. Angelic Destiny is a bit of a newcomer to the scene for me but I have found it to be an absolute powerhouse. Dropping it on a Mirran Crusader, Paladin-en Vec, or indestructible knight your opponent can't remove can shut the game down. Normally I run en-Vec in here but he is currently subbed for Silverblade.
As JPoJohnson noted earlier it's risky to be 2-for-1'd with this enchantment, but in a controlled setting where it is backed up by a BtE, pro-colour creature or played while your opponent is tapped out you can better your odds. Not to mention the inclusion of the Crusader and Paladin provides protection from black, green and red removal spells. SoFaI potentially gives blue color prot, allowing a chance for full protection across the spectrum (except obviously pro white, which would make the enchant fall off).
Everything here is also curved to potentially give instant board position by T4. Kinsbaile Cavalier is here as a one-of because when he drops, all of your creatures you swing with that turn double in attack power. Brave the Elements is a potential game-ender with its unblockbale "overrun" effect and Destiny' obviously can be used immediately. The swords I consider to be more of a T5 drop, costing 5 mana total. Playing a sword a turn early gives your opponent time to prepare. It's not the most optimal weapon for an aggro deck but there are always matches where it has its purposes. Basilisk Collar is an excellent insurance for longer games and gets rid of bant, bogle, goyf, or anything too big to deal with. Not to mention the lifelink on a double-striker helps race enemy aggro decks.
There is also a deliberate choice here not to run Aether Vial. I'll discuss why in a sec.
If this is of any help, here is what I think is a safe yet solid blueprint deck that can be built and expanded upon. It uses Vial but can be interchanged with BtE or something else. This bluebrint does not reflect any support for Aether Vial to be an auto-include, though (see why in the post after this one).
Haven't been to a modern tournament or FNM lately so I don't really have any recent matchups to share. Hopefully I can get in some more soon. My competitive list definitely looks different from the two lists I posted here.
In regards to your primer update, I think you should emphasize how knights excel in combat efficiency (first strike, double strike, pro-colour), which as cheap creatures give us an edge in locking down the early game. Complimenting this efficiency with a strategy that produces enough combat power to push the early game over the edge should be where the locus of discussion and innovation happens. Knights currently lack a strong enough trick toolbox for Tier 1 and 1.5. They must make up for it by 1) optimizing as much "2 for 1" card advantage as they can (especially with little to no draw engines), 2) focusing on what they excel most in (combat) and capitalizing on it, and 3) reacting properly with builds and SB reference to the meta of the given player. You should also note the fantastic SB options white has can and how it can dramatically alter rounds 2 and 3.
Other than theory, I think you should also discuss with detail the pros and cons of non-staple cards and how/why they should be considered for deckbuilding. These include cards like Thalia, Brave the Elements, Basilisk Collar, Elspeth, Angelic Destiny, etc.
In my personal opinion, I don't necessarily think Aether Vial should be an auto-include for every knight deck, and I will explain why. I know all of the Vial's pros, I have owned a playset for years, and I fully understand their potential; however after lots of play I have learned to view this card differently, and I will endeavor to show you my reasoning why. First, and foremost, it is only a 4-of card that MUST be drawn in your opening hand, or your first or second turns. Mulliganing to 6 or 5 to get ahold of this card is not acceptable, and without draw to pad this you are especially losing card advantage to your opponent. Drawing into your first Aether Vial on turn 3+ for our aggro-style of play is a lost draw and can be fatal. The first few turns of the game are critical for us. And having not drawn one in your opening hand or opening turns means that there are 4 potential awkward/dead draws to be had. There is just less than a 40% chance to draw one Aether Vial in an opening hand of 7 cards in a 60 card deck, and this chance decreases drastically (next to I think ~33%) with each mulligan.
Now in lets say, a Death and Taxes list, or Brian Kibler's Junk, Aether Vial is an auto-include because the game is meant to be dragged out, and a turn or two lost drawing a late vial will not set you back enough to devalue its inclusion. In a knights deck, however, we are looking to win the game as quickly as possible. This can be accomplished by most lists posted here as early as T4 or T5. We don't want matches to go longer than T6 or T7, because we will be outpaced by our opponents at this point as they cast larger and more powerful spells than us. Having a dead draw of this card show up on T4, T5, or T6, etc. when we could have drawn something like a BTE, sword, enchantment, or other non-creature utility spell may cost us the tempo we have built up.
The second reason is that by not emptying your hand of all your creatures so quickly you have potential to stay in the game if your board gets wiped/controlled. Losing a Student, KoM and Mirran Crusader with AD attached during your opponent's phase is much less crushing than losing those AND the 1 or 2 other creatures you could have potentially kept in your hand. Sad to say it a simple, well-placed Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout can still break our decks. Keeping a couple of options in hand while simultaneously commanding a strong board presence is (in my opinion) a core part of playing smart in the volatility of removal in the current meta.
Yes, I know that the payoff of a T1 play of Vial is very rewarding. You can actively do combat tricks with Exemplar, Silverblade Paladin and others. There is no discounting the creature flexibility that it grants. To some, this is worth the risk of a ~40% draw chance. And for that reason, I urge that you consider using Aether Vial to literally be a deal with the devil. Players need to know this and keep it in mind as they build. If you luck out, draw one early and play it right you can win big, but if you draw it late, well, you can also potentially lose big. Try drawing into this card on T4 during a high blood-pressure match when you needed something - anything - else and watch it cost you the game. For me, I have been frustrated with the odds of drawing into it and having it show up at inconvenient times later in the match. We have no tutor, effective card draw (other than a small pinch from Horizon Canopy) or control/security setting to fortify ourselves for a longer game to (IMO) fully justify using it here.
Please note I am not saying DON'T use Vial, but rather be cautious of what you are playing and what it might mean for you later in the match. I would be much more comfortable seeing Vial in a Puresteel or UW build than in a Mono-White build.
Other than Vial, some things + inconsistencies in other decks I wanted to point out:
Cavern of Souls: I have seen a lot of people running a full set of this. Why would you run 4 of this and then run 4 Student of Warfare, any non-knight creature and W instants like Path to Exile or BtE? You can't level a student with a Cavern and running 4 of them only can harm your early game more. Also doesn't help Stillmoon Cavalier if you choose to use one. You should run no more than 2, maybe MAX 3 if control is that prevalent in your meta. If you do this you should scale down SoW to 3. Nothing against running a set of 4 Caverns (by all means it helps versus UWR control) but it doesn't make sense to do it with numerous W mana-dependant spells/abilities.
Flagstones of Trokair: Not only security against land sacrifice (i.e. Smallpox) but helps with a bit of deck thinning. And with the new legend rule there is no reason why you shouldn't run 4.
Eiganjo Castle: If you are running Thalia, you should be running one of these.
Thalia: A strong contender for us in the current meta. Absolutely vital versus some of the shenanigans out there, like UWR control and putting a bit of a slowdown on Jund. We will win our matchups against other creatures so this helps even the playing field versus control/combo and a bit of midrange. Even hits Snapcaster for flashback. Will nearly always soak up a killspell for an exemplar and can keep hitting well if you have to play defensively. Combos with Basilisk Collar and Silverblade Paladin.
Potential Strategies: For the primer update, why not include a list of cards that have potential to make a splash but right now are better assigned to budget/casual/alternative play, such as Light from Within, Lightning Greaves, Angelic Overseer, etc.?
Sideboard: Nabby for the primer update you should really detail SB material and how we should respond/side out versus other popular meta decks. I have justified my choices on my TappedOut Knight deck found via the link above (in my previous comment), but i'll also post them here for convenience. I think that the Leyline and RIP should be auto-included for everyone. Maybe Pithing Needle too. They are:
Leyline of Sanctity - Instantly shuts down a number of strategies, including Storm, Seismic Assault , RDW, discard, sacrifice/sucide, Melira Pod's Muderous Redcap, recurring Mindslaver, etc. You either sub in 4 or none of these as you want one in your opening hand.
Oblivion Ring - Classic "catch-all" spot removal that solves almost any problem. The issues it has resolved for my knights deck time and time again has earned it a few permanent SB slots. Always a welcome sight in your hand, it has saved me from numerous, horrific Phyrexian Obliterator, Liliana of the Veil and Seismic Assault shenanigans.
Pithing Needle - Excellent for shutting down specific cards regardless of what zone they are in. Primarily useful against planeswalkers, equipment, some creatures, and some enchantments that knights are weak against like Seismic Assault. Not as strong as O-ring but coming in Round 2 is a very efficient answer to threats, allowing you to save your O-rings for other things that the needle cannot target.
Rest in Peace - The amazing, near OP, single White answer to any graveyard-focused decks. This shuts down the Morbid trigger, Blood Artist trigger, Undying trigger, Zombies, Reanimator, Flashback, Golgari guild abilities (Scavenge and Dredge), and anything non-reanimator that uses the graveyard. Extremely harmful against most combo decks, including the likes of Storm, Retrace-Loam, Melira Pod, etc.
Wrath of God - The shock and awe of the deck, erases all non-indestructible creatures from the field, other than knights made indestructible by one or two Knight Exemplar. As a one-sided boardwipe this card can be devastating, but it has its place in matches. It is subbed in against any other deck that focuses on creature combos and/or creature firepower as a wincon. A cure-all versus tokens, bogle/bant hexproof, naya, and any difficult-to-dislodge creatures.
Solid and detailed stuffs :thumbsup:, I probably could use the weekend to slowly read and digress through everything, they are certainly of great use for updating the primer, thanks for sharing lolz
That would be nice with Knight exemplar preventing opponent from destroying your creatures, anyway that would be too staxxy for my aggro attitude :D:D:D
BTW: here below a funny moment at yesterday evening's tournament vs GWBRock (I always play my GWUPuresteel build)
Problem, Path to Exile?
lolz....my bad, but I probably missed out on the funny part of it
One of the match-ups where I tried my luck with "one lander" - first 4 turns no land but I managed to get out all my Vials - my opponent played Zoo ... this is the end of the game :0
Well, I ordered some cards from StarCityGames to make Nabbydian's G/W Vial Knight list. Today when I received my order I found 3 wilt-leaf cavaliers when I ordered 3 wilt-leaf Liege. I'm not even mad since it was an easy mistake to make. I find it funny. Hopefully they resolve the issue so I can get back to playing my favorite pet deck.
Well, I ordered some cards from StarCityGames to make Nabbydian's G/W Vial Knight list. Today when I received my order I found 3 wilt-leaf cavaliers when I ordered 3 wilt-leaf Liege. I'm not even mad since it was an easy mistake to make. I find it funny. Hopefully they resolve the issue so I can get back to playing my favorite pet deck.
Too bad it wasn't the other way around. I'm sure that would have been much nicer.
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Collecting Maw of the Mire! Feel free to send me any you have, so long as they're in reasonable condition.
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Leonin Skyhunter
4x Mirran Crusader
2x Stillmoon Cavalier
4x Student of Warfare
4x White Knight
2x Angelic Destiny
2x Serra's Blessing
Instant
4x Path to Exile
Planeswalker
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
20x Plains
At the moment this the deck Idea I have, I am thinking on mainboard the Leonin Relic-Warder for Theros, a part of me wants to add Honor of the Pure as there are many many mutilate and the like where I play.
Also no aether vials at this point as those are scare in my area.
I've already added the third Aether Vial and I'll look for another.
The single Flagstone doesn't really do anything but produce white mana. It doesn't hurt anything. I've got more Caverns around, in other decks. I'm a little leery of running too many lands that don't make white for spells. I suppose I could ditch the Flares for one of the one-cc removal spells.
Aven Mindcensor is definitely something worth looking into.
Thanks for the reply.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Based on your logic, isn't Paladin en-Vec better still? Unless lifelink is your thing. Neither can do what MC can do with a sword.
Five-drops with only 19 land? That's very ambitious.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Does Angelic Overseer works here? I'm not sure if she would be good enough even if she manages to get hexproof and indestructibility.
pzbw7z is right, 19 lands is not enough, even without the 5 drop Angelic Overseer.
Right now I still prefer Paladin en-Vec over Fiendslayer Paladin. But then paul88 decklist does not have Knight of Meadowgrain so maybe Fiendslayer Paladin works better there.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
So some of the things I'm gonna update will be:
Puresteel Knights deck, Haakon Darth Knights, GW Vial knights and the Mono white Vial and non-vial knights list. Honestly I don't think there is going to be much changes since the core of the deck is always going to be Knight creatures (maybe except Puresteel Knights).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I've tested a Boros Knights list and although I don't favour it as much as I did Selesnya, I think that it has potential. Have you tried a list of that nature at all?
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Without Aether vial the deck is fairly slow, the lack of armageddon hurts WW in general against control. Also the lack of equipment hurts (just got back so not enough mojo... and those damn chocobo knights are hard as hell to find).
I also agree full White decks seems lackluster I am still crossing my fingers for a few more knights, I am thinking on use that pegasus of Theros instead of the cat knight
I apologize! I haven't been focusing on responding to people with their decks since so many others had been doing it.
There are a few weaknesses that mono-white knights have:
1. Board wipes and sweepers (Knight Exemplar aids with this, but is not a fix all against things like Bonfire of the Damned or Terminus).
2. Chump blocking/opponents getting bigger creatures down
3. Spot Removal
A great fix that I've seen included in many lists (including my own) for this is two fold:
1. Giving them trample/unblockable.
2. Protection from the color attempting to destroy/remove your critter.
Brave the Elements does both of these things in a simple 1 mana cost card. I would highly recommend including it. I know you said you don't have Aether Vial or access to it, but I would say that is the next step on your need-to-obtain list of cards to help the deck.
Lastly, Angelic Destiny is a pretty good card, but not in a format full of spot removal... I feel like it would end up being a hollow mana-sink quite often.
Best of luck with the deck! If you have any questions about what I said, respond and I'll hit you up with additional feedback (:
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Game 1 is a breeze. Resolving an Aether Vial or Mirran Crusader is basically game over. The eleven removal spells eat away any board opposition. Watch out for Engineered Explosives and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 is mostly the same. Bringing in Thalia and Gaddock Teeg hurt pretty hard and Mirran Crusader seals the deal. Watch out for Engineered Explosives, Thoughtseize and only make sure you get both Knight Exemplars in while they're tapped out. Cavern of Souls is an all-star here.
Game 3 never happened.
More results to come against other decks.
LOLzzz, sorry about that Xelloss, luckily JPoJohnson replied you, like him I thought someone else had replied you haha
Yup as pointed out Mono White is really lacking at the moment, right now I like the GW build because of Rancor and Qasali Pridemage, and it helps that Horizon Canopy makes casting those 2 easier. Look at Horizon Canopy prices now...it is insane because it's that good, the utility and advantage it provides :thumbsup:.
Nice match reports, good things you pointed out on some of the things to watch out for. Thanks for this details, I will add into the primer and credit you for it ;).
Just wish to add that against stuffs like Engineered Explosives - I encountered it against Gifts Ungiven deck, that is when Aether Vial is so important since even if we don't have a Knight Exemplar in our hand, a Vial sitting on 3 counters is enough to make the Gifts player play in a more conservative way, and that usually plays into our hand :thumbsup:.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
But of course man, and it is always a blast to play with Darth Knights ;).
Maybe against Tron? Below is some of the decks my friends are playing, so they are pretty much covered, but it will be great if we can get more reviews or opinions on these matchups as well.
BTW my Darth Knights version doesn't run Dark Confidant.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
@ JPoJohnson
I pulled this post out from a few pages ago, is this decklist close to the one you are using recently? I don't play Mono-White Knights and so perhaps you could help give better suggestions here on an optimal Mono-white list ;).
Sesordereht still reading this thread? I was scanning through the previous pages and came across this post. I'll probably could use this for reference, plenty of useful stuffs :thumbsup:. Hope you have new inputs to share with us along the way.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the White Orchid
2 Leonin Skyhunter
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Silverblade Paladin
1 Stillmoon Cavalier
1 Kinsbaile Cavalier
3 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
Artifact [3]
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Enchantment [2]
2 Angelic Destiny
Land [20]
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flagstones of Trokair
14 Plains
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Brave the Elements
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Wrath of God
My rationale here is the somewhat retired "X-Blade" approach, where you compliment cost-effective creatures and removal with powerful equipment and/or enchantments. Angelic Destiny is a bit of a newcomer to the scene for me but I have found it to be an absolute powerhouse. Dropping it on a Mirran Crusader, Paladin-en Vec, or indestructible knight your opponent can't remove can shut the game down. Normally I run en-Vec in here but he is currently subbed for Silverblade.
As JPoJohnson noted earlier it's risky to be 2-for-1'd with this enchantment, but in a controlled setting where it is backed up by a BtE, pro-colour creature or played while your opponent is tapped out you can better your odds. Not to mention the inclusion of the Crusader and Paladin provides protection from black, green and red removal spells. SoFaI potentially gives blue color prot, allowing a chance for full protection across the spectrum (except obviously pro white, which would make the enchant fall off).
Everything here is also curved to potentially give instant board position by T4. Kinsbaile Cavalier is here as a one-of because when he drops, all of your creatures you swing with that turn double in attack power. Brave the Elements is a potential game-ender with its unblockbale "overrun" effect and Destiny' obviously can be used immediately. The swords I consider to be more of a T5 drop, costing 5 mana total. Playing a sword a turn early gives your opponent time to prepare. It's not the most optimal weapon for an aggro deck but there are always matches where it has its purposes. Basilisk Collar is an excellent insurance for longer games and gets rid of bant, bogle, goyf, or anything too big to deal with. Not to mention the lifelink on a double-striker helps race enemy aggro decks.
There is also a deliberate choice here not to run Aether Vial. I'll discuss why in a sec.
If this is of any help, here is what I think is a safe yet solid blueprint deck that can be built and expanded upon. It uses Vial but can be interchanged with BtE or something else. This bluebrint does not reflect any support for Aether Vial to be an auto-include, though (see why in the post after this one).
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Hero of Bladehold
Instant [4]
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
Enchantment [4]
4 Honor of the Pure
Land [20]
2 Cavern of Souls
18 Plains
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Celestial Flare
Haven't been to a modern tournament or FNM lately so I don't really have any recent matchups to share. Hopefully I can get in some more soon. My competitive list definitely looks different from the two lists I posted here.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Other than theory, I think you should also discuss with detail the pros and cons of non-staple cards and how/why they should be considered for deckbuilding. These include cards like Thalia, Brave the Elements, Basilisk Collar, Elspeth, Angelic Destiny, etc.
In my personal opinion, I don't necessarily think Aether Vial should be an auto-include for every knight deck, and I will explain why. I know all of the Vial's pros, I have owned a playset for years, and I fully understand their potential; however after lots of play I have learned to view this card differently, and I will endeavor to show you my reasoning why. First, and foremost, it is only a 4-of card that MUST be drawn in your opening hand, or your first or second turns. Mulliganing to 6 or 5 to get ahold of this card is not acceptable, and without draw to pad this you are especially losing card advantage to your opponent. Drawing into your first Aether Vial on turn 3+ for our aggro-style of play is a lost draw and can be fatal. The first few turns of the game are critical for us. And having not drawn one in your opening hand or opening turns means that there are 4 potential awkward/dead draws to be had. There is just less than a 40% chance to draw one Aether Vial in an opening hand of 7 cards in a 60 card deck, and this chance decreases drastically (next to I think ~33%) with each mulligan.
Now in lets say, a Death and Taxes list, or Brian Kibler's Junk, Aether Vial is an auto-include because the game is meant to be dragged out, and a turn or two lost drawing a late vial will not set you back enough to devalue its inclusion. In a knights deck, however, we are looking to win the game as quickly as possible. This can be accomplished by most lists posted here as early as T4 or T5. We don't want matches to go longer than T6 or T7, because we will be outpaced by our opponents at this point as they cast larger and more powerful spells than us. Having a dead draw of this card show up on T4, T5, or T6, etc. when we could have drawn something like a BTE, sword, enchantment, or other non-creature utility spell may cost us the tempo we have built up.
The second reason is that by not emptying your hand of all your creatures so quickly you have potential to stay in the game if your board gets wiped/controlled. Losing a Student, KoM and Mirran Crusader with AD attached during your opponent's phase is much less crushing than losing those AND the 1 or 2 other creatures you could have potentially kept in your hand. Sad to say it a simple, well-placed Pyroclasm or Volcanic Fallout can still break our decks. Keeping a couple of options in hand while simultaneously commanding a strong board presence is (in my opinion) a core part of playing smart in the volatility of removal in the current meta.
Yes, I know that the payoff of a T1 play of Vial is very rewarding. You can actively do combat tricks with Exemplar, Silverblade Paladin and others. There is no discounting the creature flexibility that it grants. To some, this is worth the risk of a ~40% draw chance. And for that reason, I urge that you consider using Aether Vial to literally be a deal with the devil. Players need to know this and keep it in mind as they build. If you luck out, draw one early and play it right you can win big, but if you draw it late, well, you can also potentially lose big. Try drawing into this card on T4 during a high blood-pressure match when you needed something - anything - else and watch it cost you the game. For me, I have been frustrated with the odds of drawing into it and having it show up at inconvenient times later in the match. We have no tutor, effective card draw (other than a small pinch from Horizon Canopy) or control/security setting to fortify ourselves for a longer game to (IMO) fully justify using it here.
Please note I am not saying DON'T use Vial, but rather be cautious of what you are playing and what it might mean for you later in the match. I would be much more comfortable seeing Vial in a Puresteel or UW build than in a Mono-White build.
Other than Vial, some things + inconsistencies in other decks I wanted to point out:
Cavern of Souls: I have seen a lot of people running a full set of this. Why would you run 4 of this and then run 4 Student of Warfare, any non-knight creature and W instants like Path to Exile or BtE? You can't level a student with a Cavern and running 4 of them only can harm your early game more. Also doesn't help Stillmoon Cavalier if you choose to use one. You should run no more than 2, maybe MAX 3 if control is that prevalent in your meta. If you do this you should scale down SoW to 3. Nothing against running a set of 4 Caverns (by all means it helps versus UWR control) but it doesn't make sense to do it with numerous W mana-dependant spells/abilities.
Flagstones of Trokair: Not only security against land sacrifice (i.e. Smallpox) but helps with a bit of deck thinning. And with the new legend rule there is no reason why you shouldn't run 4.
Eiganjo Castle: If you are running Thalia, you should be running one of these.
Thalia: A strong contender for us in the current meta. Absolutely vital versus some of the shenanigans out there, like UWR control and putting a bit of a slowdown on Jund. We will win our matchups against other creatures so this helps even the playing field versus control/combo and a bit of midrange. Even hits Snapcaster for flashback. Will nearly always soak up a killspell for an exemplar and can keep hitting well if you have to play defensively. Combos with Basilisk Collar and Silverblade Paladin.
Hero of Bladehold: Very powerful in a deck that also uses Honor of the Pure and Brave the Elements. Not very recommendable otherwise.
Potential Strategies: For the primer update, why not include a list of cards that have potential to make a splash but right now are better assigned to budget/casual/alternative play, such as Light from Within, Lightning Greaves, Angelic Overseer, etc.?
Sideboard: Nabby for the primer update you should really detail SB material and how we should respond/side out versus other popular meta decks. I have justified my choices on my TappedOut Knight deck found via the link above (in my previous comment), but i'll also post them here for convenience. I think that the Leyline and RIP should be auto-included for everyone. Maybe Pithing Needle too. They are:
Leyline of Sanctity - Instantly shuts down a number of strategies, including Storm, Seismic Assault , RDW, discard, sacrifice/sucide, Melira Pod's Muderous Redcap, recurring Mindslaver, etc. You either sub in 4 or none of these as you want one in your opening hand.
Oblivion Ring - Classic "catch-all" spot removal that solves almost any problem. The issues it has resolved for my knights deck time and time again has earned it a few permanent SB slots. Always a welcome sight in your hand, it has saved me from numerous, horrific Phyrexian Obliterator, Liliana of the Veil and Seismic Assault shenanigans.
Pithing Needle - Excellent for shutting down specific cards regardless of what zone they are in. Primarily useful against planeswalkers, equipment, some creatures, and some enchantments that knights are weak against like Seismic Assault. Not as strong as O-ring but coming in Round 2 is a very efficient answer to threats, allowing you to save your O-rings for other things that the needle cannot target.
Rest in Peace - The amazing, near OP, single White answer to any graveyard-focused decks. This shuts down the Morbid trigger, Blood Artist trigger, Undying trigger, Zombies, Reanimator, Flashback, Golgari guild abilities (Scavenge and Dredge), and anything non-reanimator that uses the graveyard. Extremely harmful against most combo decks, including the likes of Storm, Retrace-Loam, Melira Pod, etc.
Wrath of God - The shock and awe of the deck, erases all non-indestructible creatures from the field, other than knights made indestructible by one or two Knight Exemplar. As a one-sided boardwipe this card can be devastating, but it has its place in matches. It is subbed in against any other deck that focuses on creature combos and/or creature firepower as a wincon. A cure-all versus tokens, bogle/bant hexproof, naya, and any difficult-to-dislodge creatures.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Solid and detailed stuffs :thumbsup:, I probably could use the weekend to slowly read and digress through everything, they are certainly of great use for updating the primer, thanks for sharing lolz
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I've recently been trying Angelic Destiny out but I feel like Elspeth outclasses it. Not a bunch of other testing recently unfortunately.
lolz....my bad, but I probably missed out on the funny part of it
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Path to Exile is the only think in WBG that can take out Mirran Crusader. He controls a spellskite. So, to sum up.
Spellskite: Lol U mad.
lol....thanks - the collar on Mirran Crusader is pretty sick too..lolz. but any equipment on him is.
Spellskite is really sick, the way it protects creatures and others
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6e0pln8nq0moeki/Knights_match_up_1.jpg
Too bad it wasn't the other way around. I'm sure that would have been much nicer.
my brain couldn't produce enough serotonin to handle that.:)
LOLZ At least Badmand will probably keep the wilt-leaf cavaliers for this inconvenience
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W