Hey..why don't you take a look at the darth knights list in the original post. It's a slightly more streamlined variant of what you're doing and you might like some of the ideas.
I've been running a black knights build casually for a while, tweaking it to get everything right. I've found mono-B is the way to go, you can't really splash because of all the heavy B requirements. Also, black knights don't really have a lord like the white ones do, is Mutavault really the best choice for a colorless land? Recently I've tried out a snow-covered/scrying sheets build, and I really like the extra versatility/reach it gives me. If I wasn't using that, I'd be using GQ or Tectonic Edge, I don't see the use for Mutavault in this deck other than as a generic 2/2. I've come to a pretty comfortable place with this list:
Sideboard is pretty quirky but I've tested against a number of different decks. Bojuka Bog is mb gy hate, but I wanted to add in a bit more, 7 seems like a good number, and the cards can be useful in other matchups too. I feel that I come back from sweepers better than most aggro builds so I use infest to beat swarms. Dismember is the standard option to beat big dudes/combo dudes like Melira/Exarch. The life gain on Shadowfeed has also been pretty useful against quick clocks. 4th Thoughtseize comes in against combo. Like I said, I've been running it just for fun for a long time, but recently started trying it against some top decks and am finding it to be pretty decent.
All right, my fellow (Mirran) Crusaders. I need help figuring out what I'm doing with my Knights. I've finally stopped being cheap enough to go out and pick up some Aether Vials, and... Twin happened. And I don't mean "I went 4-0, then I got pounded by Twin." No, no, I'm talking about going 2-3 against FIVE TWIN DECKS IN A ROW. Out of 27 people present, I got FIVE TWIN DECKS. So, I need your guys' help in finding a balanced sideboard, maindeck, and also: if you guys have any suggestions on what to sideboard for these people, that'd be great. And what TRUELY pissed me off was the fact that it was supposed to be a tribal modern week, with the big 3 (Elves, Gob-gobs, and Merfolk) banned*.
Anyhoot, that's enough ranting. Please, viciously and savagely beat the noob outta my decklist, and tell it why it's a bad fluffy.
*Me and my friends had gotten enough people (all 22 of us) to talk the store into sanctioning a modern tournament. The 22 of us had all agreed to go with a tribal, non-main 3 set of decks, and then those five.... *ahem* PEOPLE came in and pulled some crap about how the store had no right to impose such restrictions on an otherwise open tournament, blah blah blah.....
Well, there's always Leyline of Singularity, with Razor Barrier or Faith's Shield to protect it. (Note: Leyline of Singularity is also a great sideboard card against most token decks.) The beauty of this card is that you can mulligan a little more aggressively, since if you open with it, they have to draw their bounce spell or they lose.
The other good one would be Blind Obedience. Obedience's advantage is that it comes down cheaper once the game starts and the extort ability offers more than just the shutdown effect. However, it can be countered, which could be a problem.
I've been monkeying with a blue/white evasion knight build, actually, going for a little bit more control and evasion. I hadn't thought about Leyline before, but I'm liking the idea.
I love, love, love Dawn Charm. It's so good against the current meta that it's not even funny. It requires you to play a little slower, of course, but can swing games all by itself.
Other decks:
RDW: Out of the board, a second turn Martyr of Sands with 3 or 4 white cards in hand can be absolutely backbreaking for most straight burn decks (which I've been facing a ton of); if you leave a mana open they'll be so paranoid about not being able to respond to that activated ability with their own Skullcrack that this can literally shut them down for two turns, which is enough in card advantage to lose them the game. The only way they have of stopping it is to bolt it, then skullcrack in response to you activating it, which means they're wasting a burn spell on your little white creature (and they have to do it, because it's a better option than letting you gain 9 life) and skullcracking when you want them to. Dawn Charm can make all the difference in this one, too.
Infect - Lyev Skyknight and Dawn Charms are your biggies in this one. The Skyknight locks them down for a turn until you get your Supreme Verdicts, then trades with any of their infect guys/spells, while the Dawn Charm can prevent damage during that alpha strike they love. They typically can't match up with your long game, so it's just a matter of surviving until you get to your control.
Affinity - this is a difficult matchup... again, the Charm can buy you the time to get to that Verdict, the Skyknight can one of their monsters off a turn. Martyr of Sands out of the board can be a lifesaver.
Jund - Tough matchup, but your Mirran Crusader can be huge here, blocking every creature they have so that you can fly over the rest. You'll want to save your Dawn Charm for their lightning bolts, mana leak their Dark Confidants, etc. This one often ends up being a race.
Pod - I haven't played this one, so I don't know. Pod is a little slower than most decks, and a well-timed oblivion ring seems like it could be a problem for them, but I'm not sure how good this one would be.
Tron - this one you need to play aggressively. Put the heat on, get them to eat up their counters. If you manage a Cavern of Souls, you're in good shape. Snake Form is there for their Platinum Angels.
UWR - you're probably gonna lose. Sorry. The only way to win this is to get rid of their creatures immediately, since they have 30 damage worth of spells in their decks. Supreme Verdict is obviously your best friend against Geist of Saint Traft, and you'll need all the mana leaks in there out of the board, but this is Knights' toughest matchup, IMHO; unless you manage to pull off a double Knight Exemplar with your vial and they don't have PtE, I don't know of any consistent way to beat this. Also, you need to hope they're not running Thundermaw Hellkite
Esper Teachings - another tough matchup. Again... stick those Exemplars.
Alright so my Mono-W knights deck has evolved to a Mono-B mostly knights deck....I'm not even sure this is the right forum for it but it still has knights right? Any C+C is welcome, I can explain card choices and whatnot etc etc.
So there we have it, I'm calling it Haakon's Unholy Army for the time being. It's shown itself to be pretty strong thus far and I'm gonna keep testing it this week.
Liked the name you gave for the deck lolz...Haakon's Unholy Army Reminds me of the days when I played the enchant creature aura - Unholy Strength. Anyway, with regards to your list, I would remove Bloodghast and put in more knights, possibly another 2 drop in Black Knight, and maxed out on Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to 4 pieces.
I tried a similar concept before with Haakon Knights in Legacy, having both Liliana and Aether Vial to try to get Haakon into the graveyard. Honestly I don't really fancy Dark Confidant in my Haakon list anymore as it dies too easily. Although he is a very powerful creature, he does not have any sort of synergy with the deck at all. How are your results with the deck so far?
I love the primer, and I've thought of using Vial, but I can't seem to find a spot for it really (in my build, at least). Every time I try taking something out for the Vial, it feels like I don't need the vial. I also don't have any equipment, though I have thought of including them, I just never figured which ones I wanted. Anyway, here's my list...
And, if you're interested in my reasons for each choice...
Mainboard Creatures
Student of Warfare: This little guy is great. I think of him as a 3/3 First Strike for :symw::symw::symw:.
Knight of Meadowgrain: Pure value. 2/2, First strike, Lifelink for :symw::symw:? Sign me up. Lifelink is a HUGE helper vs. other aggro decks and burn.
Sigiled Paladin: Exalted is a huge bonus to a deck with so much first strike.
Knight of the White Orchid: Mana ramping, the land comes in untapped, and doesn't count as your land drop.
Silverblade Paladin: I play this dude over Kinsbaile Cavalier because he costs less and has good synergy with the last guy on this list.
Knight Exemplar: Lord, grants indestructible, 'nuff said.
Hero of Bladehold: A complete bomb. swings for 7 the turn after it comes in (Without lord effects). And if someone kills whatever is bonded with your Silverblade, who cares? Bond it to one of the tokens after it comes in and gets battlecry. The only downside to this choice is Hero of Bladehold doesn't have First Strike. But, that's fine. I'll take a token maker.
Protection
Brave the Elements: Play before blockers, after Bladehold trigger. Instant win against a mono-colored opponent. Although also great protection early-game.
Removal
Path to Exile: Make it go away.
Condemn: Pseudo-Swords to Plowshares.
Oblivion Ring: Of course.
Wrath of God: This is an odd choice, but I only include two because it's only good conditionally. However, every time I've seen this card late-game, it's been an instant win with an Exemplar on board.
Lands
Cavern of Souls: Cavern on Knight, beat face.
Plains: Plain Plains.
Sideboard
Kataki, War's Wage: Makes my local affinity opposition scoop if played T2.
Mirran Crusader: Value, but can't be paired with Silverblade very well. Was originally main.
Celestial Purge: Kills target Liliana of the Veil (Or anything else just as pesky).
Blind Obedience: Slows down Pod, slows down aggro, gain extra value from cards. :1mana::symw:? Deal.
Honor of the Pure: This slot was originally a Kor Firewalker, but he didn't do much because the guy playing mono red at my store decided to stop playing it. Now it's board fortification vs. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Stony Silence: More Pod/Affinity hate.
Grafdigger's Cage: Just that good.
I'm considering eventually adding a couple Mutavault and maybe a couple Aether Vials, but I don't know where they should go. Could I get your opinion of my list? I would appreciate it very much.
always welcome more Knight players, so I'm glad to see more people ... and now my opinion about your list (I play Vial G/W Knights in paper and recently I build up Vial Mono White Knights at MODO) ... to your list
First of all you "must" play vials or better said there is no reason to not play them ... the advantage you gain from this little costly artifact is unpayable: let me mention just few things you can do with them:
1. It saves ur mana for other purposes and you can all the time flash in some creature at the end of ur opponent turn ... avoiding sorcery kill spells
2. Avoiding counter spells - huge benefit ...
3. Instantly place blocker to represent first striker's team to kill opponents creatures
4. Flash in Exemplar - either during attack or block for protection or saving your creatures or simply boosting them
5. Flash in Metamorph to copy legends for eg., flash in creatures to kill artifacts or enchantments ...
The list goes on and on, it's usually very unpredictable for ur opponent what will happened when he attacks/blocks with ur vial untapped ...
Creatures you want to play:
- 3 up to 4 Student's I play 4 and in some match-up's I side 1 or more out ...
- full set of Knight of Meadowgrain - in ur list only way how to get some life (Basilisk Collar is nice option for first strikers and also Sword of Light and Shadow works very nicely)
- 3 up to 4 Knight's of the White Orchid
- Sigiled Paladin is not good enough - at least for me - no protection, no benefits, Exalted ain't not worth it, another 2 drop I would consider is Thalia, definitely at least 3 in SB if not main
- full set of Knight Exemplar - must
- Silverblade Paladin might looks cool but he is way worst than Mirran Crusader, another good 3 drop knight for main or if you prefer SB is Paladin En-Vec
- Hero of Bladehold is awesome but 4 is too much - you usually want to keep your vials at 3 rarely go to 4 I would play 2 Heroes and 2 Phyrexian Metamorphs - those represents 5-6 Exemplar, if you got them you could also play Wilt-lief Liege - great booster as well, better in GW build
- Path to Exile - auto include 4 - your main remove spell
- Brave the Elements is awesome trick - I play 2 in main - sometimes another 2 in SB
- Condemn ain't no Swords of Plowshares - not worth it
- Wrath is nice SB option but against some decks it's simply useless card - and those decks are numerous - away from Christmas land imagine you have army of creatures against army of ur enemy ones for eg merfolks or zoo you got ur knight exemplar out and wrath in hand - you are happy and thinking I wipe the other side of table and keep all my creatures alive, you play wrath boom in response ur exemplar is removed you just killed all ur creatures ... as I said i think about wrath more in context of killing/wiping table in terms of quick decks than killing only half of table
- OR is all the time OK but just OK
definitely I would play at least 2 Honor of Pure in main if no 3 and maybe consider Light from Within and some swords. lightning greaves are also very nice ...
SB: Celestial Purge is ok in 2 pieces I guess, I would play 3x Rest in Peace, 2x Wrath,4x Leyline of Sanctity,3x Thalia, 2x-3x Kataki or Stony Silence is fine, 2x-4x Pithing Needle helps a lot, 1x-2x O-Ring maybe ----> those cards in some combination... Rule of Law is interesting card as well ...
Most important while playing Knights, maybe many other decks is to realize what role you want to take in particular match up, sometimes it's down to one bad decision and you loose match up ... Vial makes many difficult choices easier, keeps your opponents in momentum of surprise and speed up your deck even if it cost you turn one with no real creature drop ...
Hey Eonix. Thanks for your advice. There are a few places where I agree with you, but certain things like Hero of Bladehold, whenever they come down they just win me the game. I can see taking out condemn, I honestly don't see it in games very often.
As for Wrath, that's actually never happened to me. Although I see your point, I'll consider boarding them.
How many Aether vials should I be running? 3?
Currently I haven't got an income, this was built when I did, so it's gonna be a while before I can get anything. I've currently got a Sword of Feast and Famine, should I throw that in until I get a couple of Light and Shadow/Fire and Ice?
Hey Eonix. Thanks for your advice. There are a few places where I agree with you, but certain things like Hero of Bladehold, whenever they come down they just win me the game. I can see taking out condemn, I honestly don't see it in games very often.
As for Wrath, that's actually never happened to me. Although I see your point, I'll consider boarding them.
How many Aether vials should I be running? 3?
Currently I haven't got an income, this was built when I did, so it's gonna be a while before I can get anything. I've currently got a Sword of Feast and Famine, should I throw that in until I get a couple of Light and Shadow/Fire and Ice?
Swords are almost always good. Knights is a slow build and can use the evasion that they provide. Additionally, if you hit with it, untapping your lands can be an immense bonus.
A couple notes on your deck:
- I'm skeptical about Sigiled Paladin. Exalted is nice, but a 2/2 first striker that can give a single attacker +1/+1 isn't good enough.
- I've played a lot with Knight of the White Orchid, but it annoys me that I can never play it on turn 2 when I'd like to; you have to treat it as a 3-drop, and it's really never been that good for me in that role. I don't know; a lot of people swear by it, but that's always been my experience with it.
- We'll see about Silverblade Paladin. Expectations are pretty mixed, but go ahead and run it for now. I do expect, though, that Mirran Crusader will prove flat-out better.
- Opinions vary about Hero of Bladehold, though I expect that your experience with it will depend on how removal-heavy your meta is.
- You have next to no evasion (besides Brave the Elements, and that's going to make it very difficult for you to win most creature races - especially since your deck can't generate card advantage. You need to make sure that you focus on getting the most value for your mana spent, and first strike always feels like a very underwhelming ability when I'm sitting there playing knights.
- You might want to consider more guys with protection - such as Stillmoon Cavalier, Mirran Crusader, and the like - or evasion - in other words, fliers such as Leonin Skyhunter. The latter is especially true if you're running swords, since you want those swords getting through for damage.
Swords are almost always good. Knights is a slow build and can use the evasion that they provide. Additionally, if you hit with it, untapping your lands can be an immense bonus.
A couple notes on your deck:
- I'm skeptical about Sigiled Paladin. Exalted is nice, but a 2/2 first striker that can give a single attacker +1/+1 isn't good enough.
- I've played a lot with Knight of the White Orchid, but it annoys me that I can never play it on turn 2 when I'd like to; you have to treat it as a 3-drop, and it's really never been that good for me in that role. I don't know; a lot of people swear by it, but that's always been my experience with it.
- We'll see about Silverblade Paladin. Expectations are pretty mixed, but go ahead and run it for now. I do expect, though, that Mirran Crusader will prove flat-out better.
- Opinions vary about Hero of Bladehold, though I expect that your experience with it will depend on how removal-heavy your meta is.
- You have next to no evasion (besides Brave the Elements, and that's going to make it very difficult for you to win most creature races - especially since your deck can't generate card advantage. You need to make sure that you focus on getting the most value for your mana spent, and first strike always feels like a very underwhelming ability when I'm sitting there playing knights.
- You might want to consider more guys with protection - such as Stillmoon Cavalier, Mirran Crusader, and the like - or evasion - in other words, fliers such as Leonin Skyhunter. The latter is especially true if you're running swords, since you want those swords getting through for damage.
Pretty much agree with most of what Eonix wrote here and in the earlier post :nod:, yup Knight of the White Orchid can be frustrating and exasperating at times....:rolleyes: Either we don't need the additional plains because it doesn't do anything for us at that point, or we are on the play so we are ahead on lands and opponent land screwed by themselves.
Also, I'm not really a fan of exalted for Sigiled Paladin, I felt I would even run the old school White Knight for his protection or the flyer Leonin Skyhunter for it's flying ;).
Why do everyone compare Mirran Crusader with Silverblade Paladin? They are very different cards!
Silverblade Paladin have to be played with Aether Vials and then he is a combat trick. Also do not think about him as a 2/2 Double Strike, think about Knight of Meadowgreain with Double Strike, or 9/7 trample KoTR with Double Strike.
Other than both knights having the same CMC, the similarities pretty much ends there. Sure, double strike is always welcomed, and a timely Silverblade Paladin can suddenly double-strike into a win. However in a meta with very cheap and efficient removals, without tricks to cheat Silverblade Paladin the soulbond double-strike usually fails to work the way we wanted (:nod: that's why I also agree on the best chances of success is as a combat trick with Vial.) Especially if you attacked into an opponent with blockers, a timely removal on either of the soulbond creature could just cost us to lose both creatures - meaning we are actually at the mercy of our opponents' combat trick. BTW most of the knights already have first strike to begin with.
With Vial on board I want my opponent to be afraid of everything I do. Remember playing against Death and Taxes? You never know if it will be Flickerrwisp, or Aven Mindcensor, or Mangara... What to play? What to do? I want my opponents feel this way, so they can do a mistake. That is why I allways play creatures that have impact.
About the Knight of the White Orchid, with Vials and Arid Mesas I have no trouble of trigering him whenever I like. I can play Elspeth turn 3, or make up for all those Horizon Cannopies I run. As another 2cmc knight I personaly like Kight of the Holy Nimbus, because he can survive alot of early mass removal. Sadly it is just a 2/2 and you cant win with just a 2/2s (this is why I dont play 2/2 fliers).
That's why I still play Vial. Ideally I would want to play Honor of the Pure but there is simply not enough place for both.
This is why I run Rancors, and Rancors are why I dont run Mirran Crusader. Rancor turns everything into good beater and Trample is basicaly evasion.
Rancor is really good. Rancor on a first strike creature is just amazing. Rancor has been a topdeck winning card for me in some games, while it also applies amazing pressure during the early turns.
Because we want to?:rolleyes: The same questions could be asked, why should I play Soldier Tribal when I could play Merfolk Tribal? Anyway back to the point, personally I like Knights more than Soldiers :).
Because we want to?:rolleyes: The same questions could be asked, why should I play Soldier Tribal when I could play Merfolk Tribal? Anyway back to the point, personally I like Knights more than Soldiers :).
Because they are different colors, and you want to play white?
Nope. It is because I wanted to play Knights and they are mostly white :). See the Darth Knights decklist ;)?
Ok, I guess that being a Spike, I just don't think like that. If you make a deck that has better alternatives, I understand sticking to it because it is your deck. But if you are practically copying somebody else's deck, you might as well copy the best (and most fun) decks.
Ok, I guess that being a Spike, I just don't think like that. If you make a deck that has better alternatives, I understand sticking to it because it is your deck. But if you are practically copying somebody else's deck, you might as well copy the best (and most fun) decks.
Yup, there's a spike in everyone I believe, anyway I find it more enjoyable to play and win with cards I like, and while maybe I won't win as many games but I derive more satisfaction and fun out of it in the end.
Yup, there's a spike in everyone I believe, anyway I find it more enjoyable to play and win with cards I like, and while maybe I won't win as many games but I derive more satisfaction and fun out of it in the end.
I agree, but I only apply that to decks that I created myself instead of borrowing from other people (examples of this being my Kill Mill and Enduring Renewal Storm decks). Those decks I mine, and I'm not going to give them up for the best deck. But if I was choosing a deck that somebody else made, I'd choose the best one. You created this primer, so I can respect you trying to make this work. I'm just saying that for players who are looking into a new deck, they should choose the best/most fun options if they aren't going to create their own.
I agree, but I only apply that to decks that I created myself instead of borrowing from other people (examples of this being my Kill Mill and Enduring Renewal Storm decks). Those decks I mine, and I'm not going to give them up for the best deck. But if I was choosing a deck that somebody else made, I'd choose the best one.
Yup, I read up on the Kill Mill thread, looks like a fun build which I already have all the cards for.
Anyway I think you might have missed out on the tribal appeal, some players are attracted to tribal decks, which is why I guess there is interest in the Modern Knights and Modern Ninjas thread. Same goes for other tribal decks which are not tier one.
Yup, I read up on the Kill Mill thread, looks like a fun build which I already have all the cards for.
Anyway I think you might have missed out on the tribal appeal, some players are attracted to tribal decks, which is why I guess there is interest in the Modern Knights and Modern Ninjas thread. Same goes for other tribal decks which are not tier one.
True. But if there is so much tribal love, then why doesn't Soldiers get a thread?
Hòla guys! After many months of testing, time and again, spending days and nights adjusting main deck and sideboard, surrounded by my always open albums, I finally had the courage to bring a 100% Johnny-style Puresteel Knights Deck to a real tournament. Nothing exceptional, though, just a local one, but I went against many top tier decks (and players...here in Bologna, there are many strong ones) and ended up 3rd out of 20 people so I am fairly proud of it
It has plenty of bizarre and weird cards in comparison to what it should be expected from a cliche puresteel knights deck you would see here in this thread, but since all the people who posted here helped me a lot anyway I wish to say thank you to everyone of you and especially to Nabbydian for creating the thread
The MUs were not that volatile, actually. I think I was going to suffer a lot more, but the deck turned out being more stable than I was expecting to.
Should I post here my tournament report and list or shall I create a separate thread?
Of course not: it's useful because I can activate Spellskite's ability or cast Phyrexian Metamorph without having to pay life. And, last but not least, it is vital to activate Academy Ruins:rolleyes:
Nice Knights list.;) I always like the Puresteel Knights build. We had one decklist in the primer which is mono-white, but I felt is limited in its potential due to it being mono color. I also like Aether Vial with Spellskite, flashing in Spellskite to save our Knights from Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix is just amazing ;).
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
18 Snow-Covered Swamp
3 Scrying Sheets
3 Bojuka Bog
Creatures (19)
4 Gravecrawler
4 Knight of Infamy
4 Black Knight
4 Stromgald Crusader
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Nameless Inversion
3 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dismember
3 Infest
4 Shadowfeed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Beckon Apparition
1 Thoughtseize
Sideboard is pretty quirky but I've tested against a number of different decks. Bojuka Bog is mb gy hate, but I wanted to add in a bit more, 7 seems like a good number, and the cards can be useful in other matchups too. I feel that I come back from sweepers better than most aggro builds so I use infest to beat swarms. Dismember is the standard option to beat big dudes/combo dudes like Melira/Exarch. The life gain on Shadowfeed has also been pretty useful against quick clocks. 4th Thoughtseize comes in against combo. Like I said, I've been running it just for fun for a long time, but recently started trying it against some top decks and am finding it to be pretty decent.
Well, there's always Leyline of Singularity, with Razor Barrier or Faith's Shield to protect it. (Note: Leyline of Singularity is also a great sideboard card against most token decks.) The beauty of this card is that you can mulligan a little more aggressively, since if you open with it, they have to draw their bounce spell or they lose.
The other good one would be Blind Obedience. Obedience's advantage is that it comes down cheaper once the game starts and the extort ability offers more than just the shutdown effect. However, it can be countered, which could be a problem.
I've been monkeying with a blue/white evasion knight build, actually, going for a little bit more control and evasion. I hadn't thought about Leyline before, but I'm liking the idea.
4 War Falcon
4 Leonin Skyhunter
3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Lyev Skyknight
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
Other (14)
3 Aether Vial
4 Dawn Charm
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Snake Form
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Goldmane
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Adarkar Wastes
3 Windbrisk Heights
7 Plains
3 Mana Leak
2 Leyline of Singularity
2 Blind Obedience
2 Supreme Verdict
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Snake Form
I love, love, love Dawn Charm. It's so good against the current meta that it's not even funny. It requires you to play a little slower, of course, but can swing games all by itself.
Other decks:
RDW: Out of the board, a second turn Martyr of Sands with 3 or 4 white cards in hand can be absolutely backbreaking for most straight burn decks (which I've been facing a ton of); if you leave a mana open they'll be so paranoid about not being able to respond to that activated ability with their own Skullcrack that this can literally shut them down for two turns, which is enough in card advantage to lose them the game. The only way they have of stopping it is to bolt it, then skullcrack in response to you activating it, which means they're wasting a burn spell on your little white creature (and they have to do it, because it's a better option than letting you gain 9 life) and skullcracking when you want them to. Dawn Charm can make all the difference in this one, too.
Infect - Lyev Skyknight and Dawn Charms are your biggies in this one. The Skyknight locks them down for a turn until you get your Supreme Verdicts, then trades with any of their infect guys/spells, while the Dawn Charm can prevent damage during that alpha strike they love. They typically can't match up with your long game, so it's just a matter of surviving until you get to your control.
Affinity - this is a difficult matchup... again, the Charm can buy you the time to get to that Verdict, the Skyknight can one of their monsters off a turn. Martyr of Sands out of the board can be a lifesaver.
Jund - Tough matchup, but your Mirran Crusader can be huge here, blocking every creature they have so that you can fly over the rest. You'll want to save your Dawn Charm for their lightning bolts, mana leak their Dark Confidants, etc. This one often ends up being a race.
Pod - I haven't played this one, so I don't know. Pod is a little slower than most decks, and a well-timed oblivion ring seems like it could be a problem for them, but I'm not sure how good this one would be.
Tron - this one you need to play aggressively. Put the heat on, get them to eat up their counters. If you manage a Cavern of Souls, you're in good shape. Snake Form is there for their Platinum Angels.
UWR - you're probably gonna lose. Sorry. The only way to win this is to get rid of their creatures immediately, since they have 30 damage worth of spells in their decks. Supreme Verdict is obviously your best friend against Geist of Saint Traft, and you'll need all the mana leaks in there out of the board, but this is Knights' toughest matchup, IMHO; unless you manage to pull off a double Knight Exemplar with your vial and they don't have PtE, I don't know of any consistent way to beat this. Also, you need to hope they're not running Thundermaw Hellkite
Esper Teachings - another tough matchup. Again... stick those Exemplars.
Liked the name you gave for the deck lolz...Haakon's Unholy Army Reminds me of the days when I played the enchant creature aura - Unholy Strength. Anyway, with regards to your list, I would remove Bloodghast and put in more knights, possibly another 2 drop in Black Knight, and maxed out on Haakon, Stromgald Scourge to 4 pieces.
I tried a similar concept before with Haakon Knights in Legacy, having both Liliana and Aether Vial to try to get Haakon into the graveyard. Honestly I don't really fancy Dark Confidant in my Haakon list anymore as it dies too easily. Although he is a very powerful creature, he does not have any sort of synergy with the deck at all. How are your results with the deck so far?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
4 Student of Warfare
3 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Sigiled Paladin
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Hero of Bladehold
4 Brave the Elements
Removal [10]
4 Path to Exile
2 Condemn
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wrath of God
Lands [21]
2 Cavern of Souls
19 Plains
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Celestial Purge
2 Blind Obedience
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Stony Silence
3 Grafdigger's Cage
And, if you're interested in my reasons for each choice...
Creatures
Student of Warfare: This little guy is great. I think of him as a 3/3 First Strike for :symw::symw::symw:.
Knight of Meadowgrain: Pure value. 2/2, First strike, Lifelink for :symw::symw:? Sign me up. Lifelink is a HUGE helper vs. other aggro decks and burn.
Sigiled Paladin: Exalted is a huge bonus to a deck with so much first strike.
Knight of the White Orchid: Mana ramping, the land comes in untapped, and doesn't count as your land drop.
Silverblade Paladin: I play this dude over Kinsbaile Cavalier because he costs less and has good synergy with the last guy on this list.
Knight Exemplar: Lord, grants indestructible, 'nuff said.
Hero of Bladehold: A complete bomb. swings for 7 the turn after it comes in (Without lord effects). And if someone kills whatever is bonded with your Silverblade, who cares? Bond it to one of the tokens after it comes in and gets battlecry. The only downside to this choice is Hero of Bladehold doesn't have First Strike. But, that's fine. I'll take a token maker.
Protection
Brave the Elements: Play before blockers, after Bladehold trigger. Instant win against a mono-colored opponent. Although also great protection early-game.
Removal
Path to Exile: Make it go away.
Condemn: Pseudo-Swords to Plowshares.
Oblivion Ring: Of course.
Wrath of God: This is an odd choice, but I only include two because it's only good conditionally. However, every time I've seen this card late-game, it's been an instant win with an Exemplar on board.
Lands
Cavern of Souls: Cavern on Knight, beat face.
Plains: Plain Plains.
Sideboard
Kataki, War's Wage: Makes my local affinity opposition scoop if played T2.
Mirran Crusader: Value, but can't be paired with Silverblade very well. Was originally main.
Celestial Purge: Kills target Liliana of the Veil (Or anything else just as pesky).
Blind Obedience: Slows down Pod, slows down aggro, gain extra value from cards. :1mana::symw:? Deal.
Honor of the Pure: This slot was originally a Kor Firewalker, but he didn't do much because the guy playing mono red at my store decided to stop playing it. Now it's board fortification vs. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Stony Silence: More Pod/Affinity hate.
Grafdigger's Cage: Just that good.
always welcome more Knight players, so I'm glad to see more people ... and now my opinion about your list (I play Vial G/W Knights in paper and recently I build up Vial Mono White Knights at MODO) ... to your list
First of all you "must" play vials or better said there is no reason to not play them ... the advantage you gain from this little costly artifact is unpayable: let me mention just few things you can do with them:
1. It saves ur mana for other purposes and you can all the time flash in some creature at the end of ur opponent turn ... avoiding sorcery kill spells
2. Avoiding counter spells - huge benefit ...
3. Instantly place blocker to represent first striker's team to kill opponents creatures
4. Flash in Exemplar - either during attack or block for protection or saving your creatures or simply boosting them
5. Flash in Metamorph to copy legends for eg., flash in creatures to kill artifacts or enchantments ...
The list goes on and on, it's usually very unpredictable for ur opponent what will happened when he attacks/blocks with ur vial untapped ...
Creatures you want to play:
- 3 up to 4 Student's I play 4 and in some match-up's I side 1 or more out ...
- full set of Knight of Meadowgrain - in ur list only way how to get some life (Basilisk Collar is nice option for first strikers and also Sword of Light and Shadow works very nicely)
- 3 up to 4 Knight's of the White Orchid
- Sigiled Paladin is not good enough - at least for me - no protection, no benefits, Exalted ain't not worth it, another 2 drop I would consider is Thalia, definitely at least 3 in SB if not main
- full set of Knight Exemplar - must
- Silverblade Paladin might looks cool but he is way worst than Mirran Crusader, another good 3 drop knight for main or if you prefer SB is Paladin En-Vec
- Hero of Bladehold is awesome but 4 is too much - you usually want to keep your vials at 3 rarely go to 4 I would play 2 Heroes and 2 Phyrexian Metamorphs - those represents 5-6 Exemplar, if you got them you could also play Wilt-lief Liege - great booster as well, better in GW build
- Path to Exile - auto include 4 - your main remove spell
- Brave the Elements is awesome trick - I play 2 in main - sometimes another 2 in SB
- Condemn ain't no Swords of Plowshares - not worth it
- Wrath is nice SB option but against some decks it's simply useless card - and those decks are numerous - away from Christmas land imagine you have army of creatures against army of ur enemy ones for eg merfolks or zoo you got ur knight exemplar out and wrath in hand - you are happy and thinking I wipe the other side of table and keep all my creatures alive, you play wrath boom in response ur exemplar is removed you just killed all ur creatures ... as I said i think about wrath more in context of killing/wiping table in terms of quick decks than killing only half of table
- OR is all the time OK but just OK
definitely I would play at least 2 Honor of Pure in main if no 3 and maybe consider Light from Within and some swords. lightning greaves are also very nice ...
SB: Celestial Purge is ok in 2 pieces I guess, I would play 3x Rest in Peace, 2x Wrath,4x Leyline of Sanctity,3x Thalia, 2x-3x Kataki or Stony Silence is fine, 2x-4x Pithing Needle helps a lot, 1x-2x O-Ring maybe ----> those cards in some combination... Rule of Law is interesting card as well ...
Most important while playing Knights, maybe many other decks is to realize what role you want to take in particular match up, sometimes it's down to one bad decision and you loose match up ... Vial makes many difficult choices easier, keeps your opponents in momentum of surprise and speed up your deck even if it cost you turn one with no real creature drop ...
my 50 cents ...
Eo
As for Wrath, that's actually never happened to me. Although I see your point, I'll consider boarding them.
How many Aether vials should I be running? 3?
Currently I haven't got an income, this was built when I did, so it's gonna be a while before I can get anything. I've currently got a Sword of Feast and Famine, should I throw that in until I get a couple of Light and Shadow/Fire and Ice?
Swords are almost always good. Knights is a slow build and can use the evasion that they provide. Additionally, if you hit with it, untapping your lands can be an immense bonus.
A couple notes on your deck:
- I'm skeptical about Sigiled Paladin. Exalted is nice, but a 2/2 first striker that can give a single attacker +1/+1 isn't good enough.
- I've played a lot with Knight of the White Orchid, but it annoys me that I can never play it on turn 2 when I'd like to; you have to treat it as a 3-drop, and it's really never been that good for me in that role. I don't know; a lot of people swear by it, but that's always been my experience with it.
- We'll see about Silverblade Paladin. Expectations are pretty mixed, but go ahead and run it for now. I do expect, though, that Mirran Crusader will prove flat-out better.
- Opinions vary about Hero of Bladehold, though I expect that your experience with it will depend on how removal-heavy your meta is.
- You have next to no evasion (besides Brave the Elements, and that's going to make it very difficult for you to win most creature races - especially since your deck can't generate card advantage. You need to make sure that you focus on getting the most value for your mana spent, and first strike always feels like a very underwhelming ability when I'm sitting there playing knights.
- You might want to consider more guys with protection - such as Stillmoon Cavalier, Mirran Crusader, and the like - or evasion - in other words, fliers such as Leonin Skyhunter. The latter is especially true if you're running swords, since you want those swords getting through for damage.
Pretty much agree with most of what Eonix wrote here and in the earlier post :nod:, yup Knight of the White Orchid can be frustrating and exasperating at times....:rolleyes: Either we don't need the additional plains because it doesn't do anything for us at that point, or we are on the play so we are ahead on lands and opponent land screwed by themselves.
Also, I'm not really a fan of exalted for Sigiled Paladin, I felt I would even run the old school White Knight for his protection or the flyer Leonin Skyhunter for it's flying ;).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Other than both knights having the same CMC, the similarities pretty much ends there. Sure, double strike is always welcomed, and a timely Silverblade Paladin can suddenly double-strike into a win. However in a meta with very cheap and efficient removals, without tricks to cheat Silverblade Paladin the soulbond double-strike usually fails to work the way we wanted (:nod: that's why I also agree on the best chances of success is as a combat trick with Vial.) Especially if you attacked into an opponent with blockers, a timely removal on either of the soulbond creature could just cost us to lose both creatures - meaning we are actually at the mercy of our opponents' combat trick. BTW most of the knights already have first strike to begin with.
That's why I still play Vial. Ideally I would want to play Honor of the Pure but there is simply not enough place for both.
Rancor is really good. Rancor on a first strike creature is just amazing. Rancor has been a topdeck winning card for me in some games, while it also applies amazing pressure during the early turns.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Because we want to?:rolleyes: The same questions could be asked, why should I play Soldier Tribal when I could play Merfolk Tribal? Anyway back to the point, personally I like Knights more than Soldiers :).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Because they are different colors, and you want to play white?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Nope. It is because I wanted to play Knights and they are mostly white :). See the Darth Knights decklist ;)?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Ok, I guess that being a Spike, I just don't think like that. If you make a deck that has better alternatives, I understand sticking to it because it is your deck. But if you are practically copying somebody else's deck, you might as well copy the best (and most fun) decks.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yup, there's a spike in everyone I believe, anyway I find it more enjoyable to play and win with cards I like, and while maybe I won't win as many games but I derive more satisfaction and fun out of it in the end.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I agree, but I only apply that to decks that I created myself instead of borrowing from other people (examples of this being my Kill Mill and Enduring Renewal Storm decks). Those decks I mine, and I'm not going to give them up for the best deck. But if I was choosing a deck that somebody else made, I'd choose the best one. You created this primer, so I can respect you trying to make this work. I'm just saying that for players who are looking into a new deck, they should choose the best/most fun options if they aren't going to create their own.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yup, I read up on the Kill Mill thread, looks like a fun build which I already have all the cards for.
Anyway I think you might have missed out on the tribal appeal, some players are attracted to tribal decks, which is why I guess there is interest in the Modern Knights and Modern Ninjas thread. Same goes for other tribal decks which are not tier one.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
True. But if there is so much tribal love, then why doesn't Soldiers get a thread?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You might as well post it here.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Nice Knights list.;) I always like the Puresteel Knights build. We had one decklist in the primer which is mono-white, but I felt is limited in its potential due to it being mono color. I also like Aether Vial with Spellskite, flashing in Spellskite to save our Knights from Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix is just amazing ;).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W