I'm considering dropping my Sword of Light and Shadow. In the games I have played where Knight of the Reliquary (KotR) gets really large (6/6 or higher -- greater if Knight Exemplar is present) and no enemy removal spell or ability is in sight, KotR can be chump blocked by a 1/1 token. Rancor would fix that quickly.
Exactly, trample is something that can turn situations like what you described around. Like a Thrun, the last Troll or some regenerating creatures stalling the board.
I'm surprised Knight of the Reliquary actually gets that big for you...so many decks run graveyard hate, that I couldn't ever imagine it ever being more threatening than some of the other 3-drops we have at our disposal. Green brings some other good stuff to the table (Noble Hierarch, Qasali Pridemage, now Rancor) if you run green, but I've never seen KotR actually grow to 5/5+ and stick around. I think Rancor gives a huge boost to double strikers more than anything else...deals massive damage and no more worrying about chump blockers. I still use O-Naginata for that purpose, but Rancor is such a resiliant card...I can't imagine any decks with green not considering it.
Knight of the Reliquary, if played at the right time, is usually able to get to that size and I also don't see much graveyard hate pre-board, and even then opponents usually pack more creature hate for the second game, since they know graveyard hate has limited use against us.
Rancor's ability to comes down very quickly and cheaply is a major plus point for it, because of that, it is also very easy to play around 2 for 1 removal in response to the aura coming in.
Looks like Exalted is going to be limited to White/Black in M13, though
Yeah, more resiliant than equipment I agree.
I'm actually looking at a White/Black Knights list with these cheap and easier to cast exalted knights. That means glory days ahead for Haakon, the Stromgald Scourge?
There is one slot left in green for Noble Hierarch to fit. Otherwise, they could make a functional reprint with different colors.
I doubt they will make a functional reprint, anyway, Noble Hierarch is already available to Modern Knights, in my opinion, it's either Aether Vial or Hierarch in the deck, not both. We may gain some speed and exalted, but lose out on Vial combat tricks and suspense.
Exactly, trample is something that can turn situations like what you described around. Like a Thrun, the last Troll or some regenerating creatures stalling the board.
You are right. Rancor would have helped there! lol
I doubt they will make a functional reprint, anyway, Noble Hierarch is already available to Modern Knights, in my opinion, it's either Aether Vial or Hierarch in the deck, not both. We may gain some speed and exalted, but lose out on Vial combat tricks and suspense.
At this point, I'd rather have Noble Hierarch over Aether Vial. I like combat tricks and surprises, but Aether Vial is not the card for me, for now anyways. (As discussed, when Wizards start printing Knights with good ETB abilities like Merfolk, Faeries, and Elves, then I'll take my Vials out of the box again.)
At this point, I'd rather have Noble Hierarch over Aether Vial. I like combat tricks and surprises, but Aether Vial is not the card for me, for now anyways. (As discussed, when Wizards start printing Knights with good ETB abilities like Merfolk, Faeries, and Elves, then I'll take my Vials out of the box again.)
Just be careful of board wipes, without Aether Vial tricks up your sleeve, there might be instances where you need to overextend thus putting yourself in a vulnerable situation.
Just be careful of board wipes, without Aether Vial tricks up your sleeve, there might be instances where you need to overextend thus putting yourself in a vulnerable situation.
Good point, but when I'm winning, I'm usually winning with the Exemplar lock anyway.
I did thought about playing Skyknight Legionnaire, however I felt I couldn't really afford more 3 drops knights after playing 4 Knight Exemplar and 3 Silverblade Paladin. Skyknight Legionnaire was included into the Legacy decklist because haste can suddenly pull off a surprise Jitte hit. I managed to connect with equipment Swords/Jitte a good many times in my legacy games with the Skyknight. In the Modern list, there are no equipments so I took him out.
Blood Knight and White Knight are definitely meta specific, they are chosen because Black and White are relevant removals colors, and playing these knights are effective color hosers. In any case we cannot always refrain from playing protection from colors just because we are not sure which are relevant, that's why I reckon why not just play both. They may not be relevant all the time but a 2/2 first strike knight is decent stuff.
To be frank, my choice of Hero of Oxid Ridge over Hero of Bladehold is also affected by my inclination to run more R knights. That said, the selection is not without merit. Hero of Oxid Ridge combines very well with Knight Exemplar and Silverblade Paladin, although you can easily put forward many arguments why Hero of Bladehold is a better card(it is already good on it's own being one of the biggest and key reason). I'm just hoping the haste and the bigger attack brought forward by Hero of Oxid Ridge would justify it's inclusion over Hero of Bladehold.
Is Silverblade Paladin working out for you in RW? In GW, there is no room for it.
Hero of Oxid Ridge's second ability seems underwhelming. I think I prefer Hero of Bladehold's token generation.
Hmm, I haven't tried it out yet, this is still the concepture stage and I'm trying to devise a different way of approaching R/ Modern Knights. Sure I understand your misgivings over Hero of Oxid Ridge, especially when Hero of Bladehold looks like a better option. That said, I think Silverblade Paladin works better with Oxid Ridge than Bladehold - I think the extra speed provided here with Oxid Ridge is the main benefit here, this speediness together with a combination of Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile.
Agreed in the G/ list there is no space for Silverblade Paladin.
I ran through a couple of Modern games on Cockatrice.
The first deck was a black/blue control-lish deck that had illegal Ponders, but we played it anyway. The opponent's deck was not going anywhere, since he decided to cast 2 Snapcaster Mages without any targets. He eventually got a Grave Titan on the battlefield, which I copied with Phyrexian Metamorph. He tried to Vapor Snag and Go for the Throat my creatures, but Faith's Shield was there to protect them. Two games, and I prevailed in both.
I also tried Thalia, Guardian of Thraben MD in this matchup. We both mulliganed to 5.
Thalia messed me up a little, since Path to Exile and Faith's Shield cost 1 more, but it messed up the red deck even more. His Lightning Bolts cost 1 more, which slowed down his Goblin casting. And I just kept pummeling with Thalia and then landed a Qasali Pridemage, and attacking with Thalia some more.
Eventually, I was at 8, and opponent was at 4. He had a Goblin Wardriver, and two Goblin Chieftains and alpha striked. I Path to Exile one of the chieftains and cast Faith's Shield on my Qasali Pridemage as blocker on the other one. The opponent conceded.
Nice to read your match reports again ;). And good that Knights are having a great time!
So far, Goblins has been a positive matchups for Knights, and is a matchup i'm quite happy to be paired with.
With regards to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, you have just reminded me if we should have her in the sideboard or not. Previously I was using Silence as a way to stop combo (not the best method but that's White limitation), initally my thinking is that Thalia coming down on turn 2 is too late, especially against decks running 1 drop discard(and plenty of decks have them). That said, Thalia is more versatile and also useful against tempo decks etc, so I'm pretty sure the we should have Thalia over Silence at the moment.
Faith's Shield is good, protection spells can really tilt battles or board advantage back to us, especially since opponents are usually less wary of non-blue decks when casting their spells. Whenever I cast the likes of Faith's Shield or Brave the Elements, opponents usually - "huh? you are playing this type of card?"
I forgot to mention Goblin Guide, so I think the deck was tuned to be a tier 1 or 1.5 Modern deck. He had a curve to work with, but he wasn't drawing them in the optimal order. He passed on turn 1. Then, he cast Warren Instigator on turn 2, but Goblin Guide on turn 3, so he must have drew the Guide right then. I eliminated Warren Instigator before its ability could trigger. Then, it became a race and ended in the way I described. It was close.
As for white, the only true way to stop combo is Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist, or Curse of Exhaustion. Unfortunately, Ethersworn Canonist is the only fast card. As you said, a 1 CMC discard spell could take out our anti-combo option.
Towards the bottom, the article says that not only does Thalia have an anti-combo effect, it immediately puts the opponent on a clock, which in your example, Silence does not. So, it's good against tempo deck, but good for Knight decks as another creature. And, Thalia pretty much forces the opponent to deal with it, which is one less removal for our Knights. Currently, Thalia is in place of my Elspeth, Knight Errant.
Nice to read your match reports again ;). And good that Knights are having a great time!
So far, Goblins has been a positive matchups for Knights, and is a matchup i'm quite happy to be paired with.
With regards to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, you have just reminded me if we should have her in the sideboard or not. Previously I was using Silence as a way to stop combo (not the best method but that's White limitation), initally my thinking is that Thalia coming down on turn 2 is too late, especially against decks running 1 drop discard(and plenty of decks have them). That said, Thalia is more versatile and also useful against tempo decks etc, so I'm pretty sure the we should have Thalia over Silence at the moment.
Faith's Shield is good, protection spells can really tilt battles or board advantage back to us, especially since opponents are usually less wary of non-blue decks when casting their spells. Whenever I cast the likes of Faith's Shield or Brave the Elements, opponents usually - "huh? you are playing this type of card?"
I played Vial Knights this past weekend. I went 2-1. Beat burn, some deck using through the breach to get emrakul into play, and lost 1-2 to Jund. Jund was close, he stabalized at low life with liliana and slagstorm
Main phase soulbounding Silverblade Paladin with Knight of Meadowgrain was nice along with vialing in Knight Exemplar before damage.
I'm not sure if I'm keeping the swords in or not. They felt slow. I might just bump up another honor of the pure and maybe another Elspeth.
I need to pick up some ethersworn canonists for the board. I'm running silence right now. There was only 1 storm deck in the room and I did not play against it.
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
I forgot to mention Goblin Guide, so I think the deck was tuned to be a tier 1 or 1.5 Modern deck. He had a curve to work with, but he wasn't drawing them in the optimal order. He passed on turn 1. Then, he cast Warren Instigator on turn 2, but Goblin Guide on turn 3, so he must have drew the Guide right then. I eliminated Warren Instigator before its ability could trigger. Then, it became a race and ended in the way I described. It was close.
Fortunately, most of the Knights have first strike, so we can easily block their attacks without trading off.
As for white, the only true way to stop combo is Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist, or Curse of Exhaustion. Unfortunately, Ethersworn Canonist is the only fast card. As you said, a 1 CMC discard spell could take out our anti-combo option.
Compared to Rule of Law and Curse of Exhaustion, Ethersworn Canonist can also be Vialed into play, although it's easier to remove a creature than enchantment. On the upside, you cannot Spell Pierce Canoist, and with Spell Pierce going into so many decks, it's certainly a point worth noting.
Towards the bottom, the article says that not only does Thalia have an anti-combo effect, it immediately puts the opponent on a clock, which in your example, Silence does not. So, it's good against tempo deck, but good for Knight decks as another creature. And, Thalia pretty much forces the opponent to deal with it, which is one less removal for our Knights. Currently, Thalia is in place of my Elspeth, Knight Errant.
I played Vial Knights this past weekend. I went 2-1. Beat burn, some deck using through the breach to get emrakul into play, and lost 1-2 to Jund. Jund was close, he stabalized at low life with liliana and slagstorm
Main phase soulbounding Silverblade Paladin with Knight of Meadowgrain was nice along with vialing in Knight Exemplar before damage.
I'm not sure if I'm keeping the swords in or not. They felt slow. I might just bump up another honor of the pure and maybe another Elspeth.
I need to pick up some ethersworn canonists for the board. I'm running silence right now. There was only 1 storm deck in the room and I did not play against it.
The mana curve looks a bit on the high side, with 14x 3CMC spells and 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant, did you find your hands clogged with many 3cc spells? That happens to me frequently when I have many 3cc Knights, making for a very slow start. Personally I would drop the swords, especially since that would reduce the number of the higher casting cost spells.
Jund is not an easy matchup, even with 4x Mirran Crusader. I haven't play against Jund in a while, but I think Thalia and Faith's Shield are good sideboard cards as discussed with Eriol above.
Is Silverblade Paladin worth playing 4 pieces in the deck? I'm still not sure about Silverblade at the moment. That said, Silverblade Paladin with Knight of Meadowgrain is massive, and can get some life points quickly, putting us out of reach against some of the decks like burn or even tempo decks.
Compared to Rule of Law and Curse of Exhaustion, Ethersworn Canonist can also be Vialed into play, although it's easier to remove a creature than enchantment. On the upside, you cannot Spell Pierce Canonist, and with Spell Pierce going into so many decks, it's certainly a point worth noting.
Ah, thanks for the information. It appears that Thalia is very popular as a control creature, since there is even a new Zoo deck type that uses Thalia.
Ethersworn Canonist is weaker than Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, because it doesn't have first strike, and I believe removing it automatically lifts the "one non-artifact spell per turn" restriction. To eliminate Thalia, an opponent has to spend one more mana on the removal spell, which will break their tempo. (especially if they needed that one mana to execute their game plan that turn instead of the next turn)
Ah, thanks for the information. It appears that Thalia is very popular as a control creature, since there is even a new Zoo deck type that uses Thalia.
Ethersworn Canonist is weaker than Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, because it doesn't have first strike, and I believe removing it automatically lifts the "one non-artifact spell per turn" restriction. To eliminate Thalia, an opponent has to spend one more mana on the removal spell, which will break their tempo. (especially if they needed that one mana to execute their game plan that turn instead of the next turn)
I was thinking if there is additional space in the sideboard after running 4 Thalia, you could add a couple of Ethersworn Canonist as well. Thalia not only slows combo, but tempo decks too. Canoist is simply a specialist against combo.
I was thinking if there is additional space in the sideboard after running 4 Thalia, you could add a couple of Ethersworn Canonist as well. Thalia not only slows combo, but tempo decks too. Canoist is simply a specialist against combo.
I might try to up my Thalia count from 2 to 3, but I need to find space.
Thanks for the link. Btw seems like it's time to update the primer with some details.
Meanwhile what do you think of the new card War Falcon in M13? A 2/1 flying for W looks interesting here. I'm quite keen to explore a faster aggro list utilising Honor of the Pure here.
Meanwhile what do you think of the new card War Falcon in M13? A 2/1 flying for W looks interesting here. I'm quite keen to explore a faster aggro list utilising Honor of the Pure here.
I think it doesn't do enough, and it's slow in this deck, because it can't attack or block without a Knight or Soldier. Removal of a Knight or Soldier turns War Falcon into a do-nothing permanent.
What is more likely to happen in a game:
T1: Cast Aether Vial (for Vial Knights) or cast Student of Warfare
T2: Level up Student of Warfare twice. Don't cast War Falcon instead.
War Falcon is probably better in a soldier deck.
By the way, what did you update in the primer on the first page? I don't see Thalia discussed. Can I get my non-Vial version in there? lol (not sure it is worthy enough, but it might be a "cheap alternative" deck.)
I think it doesn't do enough, and it's slow in this deck, because it can't attack or block without a Knight or Soldier. Removal of a Knight or Soldier turns War Falcon into a do-nothing permanent.
What is more likely to happen in a game:
T1: Cast Aether Vial (for Vial Knights) or cast Student of Warfare
T2: Level up Student of Warfare twice. Don't cast War Falcon instead.
War Falcon is probably better in a soldier deck.
Thanks for describing and explaining the likely scenarios, that would certainly be the probable opening plays in a typical Vial Knights deck, however if I was to play War Falcon, it would be in a deck without Vial but with Honor of the Pure instead.
There is an assumption here, due to the sheer number of knights we play (we are the knights deck anyway :rolleyes:), that we should at least have one of them in play alongside Falcon most of the time. Besides, Falcon can block and kill a flipped Delver of Secrets. To be honest, I'm also not convinced on Falcon place in the deck, but just hoping to brew something here - we are living on crumbs anyway (based on what tribal knights is getting recently from new expansions).
That said, I have to agree with you over Falcon being better in Soldiers. I can imagine Ranger of Eos fetching 2 Falcons, and soldiers attack better as a horde, so Falcon is a very useful,relevant and fast one-drop similar to Elite Vanguard. Anyway there seem to be no lover for Tribal Soldiers at the moment. I have been talking to myself in my Soldiers thread for some time.
By the way, what did you update in the primer on the first page? I don't see Thalia discussed. Can I get my non-Vial version in there? lol (not sure it is worthy enough, but it might be a "cheap alternative" deck.)
Oh, I haven't got around to doing it yet, I'm spending most of my time at my LGS playtesting, and also playing some soccer and tennis, so was never really in the right frame of mind to settle down and update the primer. Off hand, I know I need to add Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Silverblade Paladin and Cavern of Souls for sure.
Sure! No problem to adding your knight deck into the primer, but can I count on you to build an optimal non-vial version instead? We could use your existing list as the backbone, and perhaps altered it slightly so it can be as good as it get!
Actually a lot of your heaviest hitting synergies in the mono black knights list are modern legal, and I'm the one that suggest gravecrawler there, if you had forgotten. I love the darth knights thread.
@weltkrieg
I pulled this quote from the other thread on GW knights below, I wanted to reply you but I felt we didn't need another thread discussion knights so I didn't post this reply there.
Thanks for the support in the Legacy Dark Knights Thread, although it's not the strongest mono-black strategy, I always like the idea of Dark and Black Knights, even in my RPG games, I would usually choose a black/dark knight even if they are not the best creature! And I like your suggestions on Gravecrawler -it's going into my latest version of Darth Knights for sure!
I'm not sure about playing them in Modern though, as we are without Entomb and Buried alive.
I don't know that I would run honor the pure in either a green/white list or a mono white list. Knights, by themselves, tend to be very very strong in individual combat thanks to their protection and first strike. They also tend not be a swarming strategy, which anthems help most with. I would much rather have the threats themselves or removal to deal with threats you can't. However, I would highly recommend rancor when it comes out. As an individual pump, it is as good as it gets, and it's really hard to kill.
Agree on Honor of the Pure. And you can't possibly play Vial and Honor in the same deck - you need those slots for creatures!
Rancor is definitely recommended. Especially on a first striking knight.
Thanks for describing and explaining the likely scenarios, that would certainly be the probable opening plays in a typical Vial Knights deck, however if I was to play War Falcon, it would be in a deck without Vial but with Honor of the Pure instead.
There is an assumption here, due to the sheer number of knights we play (we are the knights deck anyway :rolleyes:), that we should at least have one of them in play alongside Falcon most of the time. Besides, Falcon can block and kill a flipped Delver of Secrets. To be honest, I'm also not convinced on Falcon place in the deck, but just hoping to brew something here - we are living on crumbs anyway (based on what tribal knights is getting recently from new expansions).
I think Delver decks can flip a Delver on T2 with their access to library manipulation. I think the Falcon's dependency on a Knight or Soldier on the battlefield is its weakness. Your early soldiers and Knight have a high probability of being removed, so Falcon could become a dead draw. I understand that you want to try to brew something, and I'm open to being wrong. In the meantime, I will continue to charge with Knight of Meadowgrain to slow the life loss from Delver, hopefully buying me enough time to draw removal.
Quote from Nabbydian »
That said, I have to agree with you over Falcon being better in Soldiers. I can imagine Ranger of Eos fetching 2 Falcons, and soldiers attack better as a horde, so Falcon is a very useful,relevant and fast one-drop similar to Elite Vanguard.
Yeah, Soldiers can be deployed faster with their greater number of one-drop soldiers.
Quote from Nabbydian »
Anyway there seem to be no lover for Tribal Soldiers at the moment. I have been talking to myself in my Soldiers thread for some time.
I was wondering where the Modern Soldiers thread went. It fell off the first page.
Quote from Nabbydian »
Oh, I haven't got around to doing it yet, I'm spending most of my time at my LGS playtesting, and also playing some soccer and tennis, so was never really in the right frame of mind to settle down and update the primer.
Got to stay fit. Magic players shouldn't be couch potatoes.
Quote from Nabbydian »
Sure! No problem to adding your knight deck into the primer, but can I count on you to build an optimal non-vial version instead? We could use your existing list as the backbone, and perhaps altered it slightly so it can be as good as it get!
Sure, here is my current build of G/W Knights without Aether Vial.
I pulled this quote from the other thread on GW knights below, I wanted to reply you but I felt we didn't need another thread discussion knights so I didn't post this reply there.
Thanks for the support in the Legacy Dark Knights Thread, although it's not the strongest mono-black strategy, I always like the idea of Dark and Black Knights, even in my RPG games, I would usually choose a black/dark knight even if they are not the best creature! And I like your suggestions on Gravecrawler -it's going into my latest version of Darth Knights for sure!
I'm not sure about playing them in Modern though, as we are without Entomb and Buried alive.
It's understandable. Actually, since you can run a ton of pro white black knights, it's a very survivable strategy in modern. There is a lot to be said for being path proof. It's also hell on counters and red removal because of haakon. Graveyard hate remains problematic, but well, you can't have everything, and frankly, being strong against these two strategies isn't something to be ashamed of. I was looking at a mono black knights strategy, and noting liliana of the veil, I really think that the best card to pair with her would be smallpox. I understand that it will be slower, yes. However, it's also a ground out attrition war and this sort of deck would excel at that. I propose this list, noting that we are aiming for the mid to long game and this deck would be more of a long term. I will be testing it, of course.
Dark Confidant seems obvious enough, 3 liliana is hell on opposing decks, and the rest is attrition or combination. 4 Haakon for now, I'm going to assume it will be path target number one and well, nailing their paths will always be good. Beyond that, the only creature that doesn't synergize with the zombie strategy is black knight, and a 2/2 pro white first strike is still good, in my book.
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Exactly, trample is something that can turn situations like what you described around. Like a Thrun, the last Troll or some regenerating creatures stalling the board.
Knight of the Reliquary, if played at the right time, is usually able to get to that size and I also don't see much graveyard hate pre-board, and even then opponents usually pack more creature hate for the second game, since they know graveyard hate has limited use against us.
Rancor's ability to comes down very quickly and cheaply is a major plus point for it, because of that, it is also very easy to play around 2 for 1 removal in response to the aura coming in.
Yeah, more resiliant than equipment I agree.
I'm actually looking at a White/Black Knights list with these cheap and easier to cast exalted knights. That means glory days ahead for Haakon, the Stromgald Scourge?
I doubt they will make a functional reprint, anyway, Noble Hierarch is already available to Modern Knights, in my opinion, it's either Aether Vial or Hierarch in the deck, not both. We may gain some speed and exalted, but lose out on Vial combat tricks and suspense.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
You are right. Rancor would have helped there! lol
At this point, I'd rather have Noble Hierarch over Aether Vial. I like combat tricks and surprises, but Aether Vial is not the card for me, for now anyways. (As discussed, when Wizards start printing Knights with good ETB abilities like Merfolk, Faeries, and Elves, then I'll take my Vials out of the box again.)
Exactly, and that is at the cost of only one G and being a potentially recurring aura enchantment.
Just be careful of board wipes, without Aether Vial tricks up your sleeve, there might be instances where you need to overextend thus putting yourself in a vulnerable situation.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Good point, but when I'm winning, I'm usually winning with the Exemplar lock anyway.
That's true. Other than Path to Exile, most of the more popular Modern removal spells are unable to break the Exemplar lock.
Recently, I was thinking about a R/ Legacy Knights list, and somehow came up with a list which is literally a Modern list.:rolleyes:
Anyway, I thought I could share with you all guys here, any critiques or comments are welcomed.
2 Blood Knight
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
2 Hero of Oxid Ridge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mother of Runes
3 Silverblade paladin
2 Silver Knight
2 Skyknight Legionnaire
3 Student of Warfare
4 AEther Vial
4 Lightning Helix
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [21]
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plateau
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Mountain
3 Plains
3 Blood Knight
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Hero of Oxid Ridge
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Silverblade paladin
3 White Knight
4 Student of Warfare
4 AEther Vial
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
Lands [22]
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Mountain
5 Plains
Should we have Ajani Vengeant in the Modern list?
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Blood Knight and White Knight are meta specific, so I don't know how effective they would be.
I would rather use Hero of Bladehold over Hero of Oxid Ridge
I did thought about playing Skyknight Legionnaire, however I felt I couldn't really afford more 3 drops knights after playing 4 Knight Exemplar and 3 Silverblade Paladin. Skyknight Legionnaire was included into the Legacy decklist because haste can suddenly pull off a surprise Jitte hit. I managed to connect with equipment Swords/Jitte a good many times in my legacy games with the Skyknight. In the Modern list, there are no equipments so I took him out.
Blood Knight and White Knight are definitely meta specific, they are chosen because Black and White are relevant removals colors, and playing these knights are effective color hosers. In any case we cannot always refrain from playing protection from colors just because we are not sure which are relevant, that's why I reckon why not just play both. They may not be relevant all the time but a 2/2 first strike knight is decent stuff.
To be frank, my choice of Hero of Oxid Ridge over Hero of Bladehold is also affected by my inclination to run more R knights. That said, the selection is not without merit. Hero of Oxid Ridge combines very well with Knight Exemplar and Silverblade Paladin, although you can easily put forward many arguments why Hero of Bladehold is a better card(it is already good on it's own being one of the biggest and key reason). I'm just hoping the haste and the bigger attack brought forward by Hero of Oxid Ridge would justify it's inclusion over Hero of Bladehold.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Hero of Oxid Ridge's second ability seems underwhelming. I think I prefer Hero of Bladehold's token generation.
Hmm, I haven't tried it out yet, this is still the concepture stage and I'm trying to devise a different way of approaching R/ Modern Knights. Sure I understand your misgivings over Hero of Oxid Ridge, especially when Hero of Bladehold looks like a better option. That said, I think Silverblade Paladin works better with Oxid Ridge than Bladehold - I think the extra speed provided here with Oxid Ridge is the main benefit here, this speediness together with a combination of Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt and Path to Exile.
Agreed in the G/ list there is no space for Silverblade Paladin.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
The first deck was a black/blue control-lish deck that had illegal Ponders, but we played it anyway. The opponent's deck was not going anywhere, since he decided to cast 2 Snapcaster Mages without any targets. He eventually got a Grave Titan on the battlefield, which I copied with Phyrexian Metamorph. He tried to Vapor Snag and Go for the Throat my creatures, but Faith's Shield was there to protect them. Two games, and I prevailed in both.
Wall of Omens continues to help smooth my draws. Knight of the Meadowgrain kept raising my life total. Knight of the Reliquary bashed two times at 3/3 before being taken out.
I sideboarded Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in the second game, and the opponent had to pay 3 for a Doom Blade. Good times.
The second deck was a Goblins direct damage deck with Warren Instigators, Goblin Guide, Goblin Wardriver, Goblin Chieftains, Teetering Peaks, and Lightning Bolts.
I also tried Thalia, Guardian of Thraben MD in this matchup. We both mulliganed to 5.
Thalia messed me up a little, since Path to Exile and Faith's Shield cost 1 more, but it messed up the red deck even more. His Lightning Bolts cost 1 more, which slowed down his Goblin casting. And I just kept pummeling with Thalia and then landed a Qasali Pridemage, and attacking with Thalia some more.
Eventually, I was at 8, and opponent was at 4. He had a Goblin Wardriver, and two Goblin Chieftains and alpha striked. I Path to Exile one of the chieftains and cast Faith's Shield on my Qasali Pridemage as blocker on the other one. The opponent conceded.
It was a good day for Knights.
So far, Goblins has been a positive matchups for Knights, and is a matchup i'm quite happy to be paired with.
With regards to Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, you have just reminded me if we should have her in the sideboard or not. Previously I was using Silence as a way to stop combo (not the best method but that's White limitation), initally my thinking is that Thalia coming down on turn 2 is too late, especially against decks running 1 drop discard(and plenty of decks have them). That said, Thalia is more versatile and also useful against tempo decks etc, so I'm pretty sure the we should have Thalia over Silence at the moment.
Faith's Shield is good, protection spells can really tilt battles or board advantage back to us, especially since opponents are usually less wary of non-blue decks when casting their spells. Whenever I cast the likes of Faith's Shield or Brave the Elements, opponents usually - "huh? you are playing this type of card?"
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
As for white, the only true way to stop combo is Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist, or Curse of Exhaustion. Unfortunately, Ethersworn Canonist is the only fast card. As you said, a 1 CMC discard spell could take out our anti-combo option.
Wizards printed this article after Thalia was spoiled:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/td/177
Towards the bottom, the article says that not only does Thalia have an anti-combo effect, it immediately puts the opponent on a clock, which in your example, Silence does not. So, it's good against tempo deck, but good for Knight decks as another creature. And, Thalia pretty much forces the opponent to deal with it, which is one less removal for our Knights. Currently, Thalia is in place of my Elspeth, Knight Errant.
Faith's Shield is almost like a counterspell (Rebuff the Wicked).
My list from the weekend is below
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Silverblade Paladin
4 Knight Exemplar
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Instants
3 Path to Exile
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Honor of the Pure
Land
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Mutavault
16 Plains
I left the sideboard off for now.
Main phase soulbounding Silverblade Paladin with Knight of Meadowgrain was nice along with vialing in Knight Exemplar before damage.
I'm not sure if I'm keeping the swords in or not. They felt slow. I might just bump up another honor of the pure and maybe another Elspeth.
I need to pick up some ethersworn canonists for the board. I'm running silence right now. There was only 1 storm deck in the room and I did not play against it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=4832736
Trading 10 full art zen basics for 8 of yours!
I want
Plains - John Avon - 230
Island - Jung Park - 235
Island - Vincent Proce - 237
Swamp - John Avon - 238
Mountain - John Avon - 242
Forest - John Avon - 246
Fortunately, most of the Knights have first strike, so we can easily block their attacks without trading off.
Compared to Rule of Law and Curse of Exhaustion, Ethersworn Canonist can also be Vialed into play, although it's easier to remove a creature than enchantment. On the upside, you cannot Spell Pierce Canoist, and with Spell Pierce going into so many decks, it's certainly a point worth noting.
Useful article. Thanks for sharing.
I have tried and played against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben multiple times, and she's really good.
Thalia and Faith's Shield/Brave the Elements is going into my sideboard.
The mana curve looks a bit on the high side, with 14x 3CMC spells and 2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant, did you find your hands clogged with many 3cc spells? That happens to me frequently when I have many 3cc Knights, making for a very slow start. Personally I would drop the swords, especially since that would reduce the number of the higher casting cost spells.
Jund is not an easy matchup, even with 4x Mirran Crusader. I haven't play against Jund in a while, but I think Thalia and Faith's Shield are good sideboard cards as discussed with Eriol above.
Is Silverblade Paladin worth playing 4 pieces in the deck? I'm still not sure about Silverblade at the moment. That said, Silverblade Paladin with Knight of Meadowgrain is massive, and can get some life points quickly, putting us out of reach against some of the decks like burn or even tempo decks.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Ah, thanks for the information. It appears that Thalia is very popular as a control creature, since there is even a new Zoo deck type that uses Thalia.
Ethersworn Canonist is weaker than Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, because it doesn't have first strike, and I believe removing it automatically lifts the "one non-artifact spell per turn" restriction. To eliminate Thalia, an opponent has to spend one more mana on the removal spell, which will break their tempo. (especially if they needed that one mana to execute their game plan that turn instead of the next turn)
I'm quite surprised a Zoo variant will play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, since traditionally they relies on low and effective non-creature spells such as Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Lightning Helix etc, which allows them to cast removal and creatures at the same turn.
I was thinking if there is additional space in the sideboard after running 4 Thalia, you could add a couple of Ethersworn Canonist as well. Thalia not only slows combo, but tempo decks too. Canoist is simply a specialist against combo.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Here is the new Zoo thread that talks about Thalia.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=414066
Scroll down to Thalia Zoo for a decklist.
I might try to up my Thalia count from 2 to 3, but I need to find space.
Thanks for the link. Btw seems like it's time to update the primer with some details.
Meanwhile what do you think of the new card War Falcon in M13? A 2/1 flying for W looks interesting here. I'm quite keen to explore a faster aggro list utilising Honor of the Pure here.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I think it doesn't do enough, and it's slow in this deck, because it can't attack or block without a Knight or Soldier. Removal of a Knight or Soldier turns War Falcon into a do-nothing permanent.
Best case:
T1: Cast War Falcon
T2: Cast Student of Warfare/Knight of Meadowgrain/other 2 CMC Knight
War Falcon attacks.
What is more likely to happen in a game:
T1: Cast Aether Vial (for Vial Knights) or cast Student of Warfare
T2: Level up Student of Warfare twice. Don't cast War Falcon instead.
War Falcon is probably better in a soldier deck.
By the way, what did you update in the primer on the first page? I don't see Thalia discussed. Can I get my non-Vial version in there? lol (not sure it is worthy enough, but it might be a "cheap alternative" deck.)
Thanks for describing and explaining the likely scenarios, that would certainly be the probable opening plays in a typical Vial Knights deck, however if I was to play War Falcon, it would be in a deck without Vial but with Honor of the Pure instead.
There is an assumption here, due to the sheer number of knights we play (we are the knights deck anyway :rolleyes:), that we should at least have one of them in play alongside Falcon most of the time. Besides, Falcon can block and kill a flipped Delver of Secrets. To be honest, I'm also not convinced on Falcon place in the deck, but just hoping to brew something here - we are living on crumbs anyway (based on what tribal knights is getting recently from new expansions).
That said, I have to agree with you over Falcon being better in Soldiers. I can imagine Ranger of Eos fetching 2 Falcons, and soldiers attack better as a horde, so Falcon is a very useful,relevant and fast one-drop similar to Elite Vanguard. Anyway there seem to be no lover for Tribal Soldiers at the moment. I have been talking to myself in my Soldiers thread for some time.
Oh, I haven't got around to doing it yet, I'm spending most of my time at my LGS playtesting, and also playing some soccer and tennis, so was never really in the right frame of mind to settle down and update the primer. Off hand, I know I need to add Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Silverblade Paladin and Cavern of Souls for sure.
Sure! No problem to adding your knight deck into the primer, but can I count on you to build an optimal non-vial version instead? We could use your existing list as the backbone, and perhaps altered it slightly so it can be as good as it get!
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
@weltkrieg
I pulled this quote from the other thread on GW knights below, I wanted to reply you but I felt we didn't need another thread discussion knights so I didn't post this reply there.
Thanks for the support in the Legacy Dark Knights Thread, although it's not the strongest mono-black strategy, I always like the idea of Dark and Black Knights, even in my RPG games, I would usually choose a black/dark knight even if they are not the best creature! And I like your suggestions on Gravecrawler -it's going into my latest version of Darth Knights for sure!
I'm not sure about playing them in Modern though, as we are without Entomb and Buried alive.
Agree on Honor of the Pure. And you can't possibly play Vial and Honor in the same deck - you need those slots for creatures!
Rancor is definitely recommended. Especially on a first striking knight.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I think Delver decks can flip a Delver on T2 with their access to library manipulation. I think the Falcon's dependency on a Knight or Soldier on the battlefield is its weakness. Your early soldiers and Knight have a high probability of being removed, so Falcon could become a dead draw. I understand that you want to try to brew something, and I'm open to being wrong. In the meantime, I will continue to charge with Knight of Meadowgrain to slow the life loss from Delver, hopefully buying me enough time to draw removal.
Yeah, Soldiers can be deployed faster with their greater number of one-drop soldiers.
I was wondering where the Modern Soldiers thread went. It fell off the first page.
Got to stay fit. Magic players shouldn't be couch potatoes.
Sure, here is my current build of G/W Knights without Aether Vial.
3 Student of Warfare
4 Wall of Omens
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Non-creatures (11)
4 Path to Exile
3 Faith's Shield
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Sword of Light and Shadow (Rancor)
2 Wrath of God
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
8 Plains
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Ghostly Prison
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Wrath of God
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
4x Knight of the white orchid
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
4x Knight of the reliquary
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
4x Aether vial
2x Gavony Township
2 Oblivion ring
4x Path to exile
4x Sunpetal Grove
11x Plains
now i have some more knight cards and some good instants and stuff for it so any suggestions are welcome =-D
It's understandable. Actually, since you can run a ton of pro white black knights, it's a very survivable strategy in modern. There is a lot to be said for being path proof. It's also hell on counters and red removal because of haakon. Graveyard hate remains problematic, but well, you can't have everything, and frankly, being strong against these two strategies isn't something to be ashamed of. I was looking at a mono black knights strategy, and noting liliana of the veil, I really think that the best card to pair with her would be smallpox. I understand that it will be slower, yes. However, it's also a ground out attrition war and this sort of deck would excel at that. I propose this list, noting that we are aiming for the mid to long game and this deck would be more of a long term. I will be testing it, of course.
4 Haakon, stromgald scourge
4 gravecrawler
4 stromgald crusader
4 black knight
4 smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
3 Nameless inversion
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mutavault
18 swamp
Dark Confidant seems obvious enough, 3 liliana is hell on opposing decks, and the rest is attrition or combination. 4 Haakon for now, I'm going to assume it will be path target number one and well, nailing their paths will always be good. Beyond that, the only creature that doesn't synergize with the zombie strategy is black knight, and a 2/2 pro white first strike is still good, in my book.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!