Got a new Knight brew that has been kickin' ass in testing. I'm really excited about it. History of Benalia has added some real gas. Wanted to share. It's by no means a finished product so any advice is welcome.
Whadaya think? Sorry/not sorry if the feudalism terms were annoying/confusing/distracting. I'm not sold on the Heroic Interventions. I'm also not certain about the 4x Knight Exemplar. Knight of the Reliquary was definitely a consideration for its obvious synergy with both the knight buffs as well as the double-buff from Wilt-Leaf Liege. In the end I decided I didn't want to have to rely on the graveyard whatsoever. If I change my mind and end up wanting KotR, I would venture to guess that some of the Exemplars would have to go before the Crusaders (and of course I would change the land-base). Mirran Crusader gives this deck an unreal (and absolutely essential in this format) clock. Selesnya Charm is so much better than I thought it would be. It's been a real all-star. It makes Crusader swing for 8. It buffs a dude out of Lightning Bolt/Anger of the Gods range. It exiles Wurmcoil Engine, various Eldrazi, Gurmag Anglers and Goyfs (like Crusader cares about Anglers and Goyfs). But most importantly it's another 2/2 vigilant knight, and it stands out because it has flash. Having some instant speed stuff makes us way less one-dimensional. WLL adds some hate against BGx decks (like we need anymore with 4x Mirran Crusaders MB) and Burning Inquiry and such, as well as providing a buff. Elspeth can help refill our boardstate, but most importantly makes Crusader swing for 10 in the air. Gideon is a grind machine that spits out 2/2 knights every turn.
History of Benalia is an absolute house. If y'all haven't been brewing with it yet you need to get on it. That card is a value machine.
The SB is very hateful, just like a white SB should be. Sundering Growth is some sweet tech. It destroys problematic opposition while forwarding our aggro/go wide plan
Please let me know what you think. I'm excited about it. History of Benalia has really changed things for knights I believe.
Wow... I sure missed that one, didn’t I? That’s actually a pretty big bummer. Charm had so much more utility for me in my ignorance. It may not seem like a big blow at a glance, but that takes away some major utility from this deck. I’m really glad you pointed that out instead of having me go on living a lie for who knows how much longer. I’d have hate to have been made aware of that in the middle of a tournament.
I have some brewing to do then. Still, I strongly suggest everyone try History with Wilt-Leaf Liege and/or Gideon. Turn-two History into turn-three Liege or Gideon is a huge clock/source of value. Of course Mirran Crusader into Elspeth hits your opponent like a freight train, preferably on turn-three for 12 damage with an exalted trigger.
The problem with Knights is a distinct lack of card advantage. The only card in this deck that presents the possibility of a 2-for-1 is History of Benalia, which requires two turns to do it. Ultimately, it relies almost entirely on getting Knight Exemplar out - otherwise it's just a subpar collection of mid-range creatures that are almost all outclassed by your average 4/5 Tarmogoyf.
So to make this deck competitive, that's where the improvement needs to happen - you have to keep get your threats out early, ramp them in power as the game goes along without trading threats 1-for-1, and find a way to swing for the win before the other team can establish their board position. Without card draw, that's a really tall order these days.
So here's what I would start with (note: it's not cheap!):
I'm not sure that KotR helps, though. The deck currently only has four fetch lands, which means you need to keep him on the board, sans protection, without attacking and sac your own lands in response. Plus, Gideon, Lead, and History are vital in the war of attrition - all three are able to generate more than one creature, which is absolutely necessary without having any other way of gaining card advantage.
If you don’t want the coco route you could go descendants path and mutavaults. It’s card advantage while also not making you all in on creatures. Haakon with changeling spells/creatures is big game too. If you have a mirror entity you can even make none knights indestructible for 0 mana. Tons of things you can do but are any good enough in the current modern meta? At least you have white for all your sideboard needs.
Gavony Township, Gideon, and History of Benalia are all Pseudo-CA/Value/Grind. I don’t think that’s a huge problem, honestly. And who do you need to grind against the most? Probably BGx. We run Mirran Crusader (and I run Wilt-Leaf Liege) MB. We definitely have some things going for us in that MU. I think what’s the most important is being able to end games quickly. We’re not as disruptive as humans, who have an excellent Aggro ability. Since we can’t disrupt all that well, we need to go in guns blazing. Badass three-drop on turn-two, followed by a great four-drop enabler on turn three. We have access to amazing white SB cards to slow down the combo decks long enough to swing lethal, and we can go wide and grind just well enough to have a damn decent match against other decks like Humans or BGx. I think dorks are way more important than our one-drop knights. Gideon and History can put bodies on the board. We need to be laying down some serious pressure on turn-two.
And I think Mirror Entity is a great idea and worth some testing. It can turn all our dorks into knights in response to History’s third lore counter. It can also make all our little 2/2 knights into absolute powerhouses once you have a little mana up.
Also, I think Worship is a great include in the MB. There’s lots of decks that just don’t have an answer for it game-one. It’s a great way to steal a game. Sometimes all you need is one more turn to swing lethal, and Worship can buy you that turn. I’ve often considered running a Sword in the MB as well. There’s plenty of warm bodies to carry one, including double-strikers and flyers.
Okay so I figured I'd take a look at this Primer to see what the current talk is about knights.. I really want to build it! haha
Just wondering.. why isn't anyone talking about aether vial? Seems excellent always with tribal decks. I think keeping the curve down on the costs of the knights and running like green/white or red/white would be crazy! Especially with the new saga
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
I would say the biggest non budget concern about vial is that its not really doing much for the deck overall since unlike vial goblins or death and taxes you have no real shut off valve or big trick that would warrant inclusion. Sure you can set it to two and have creatures come out for free, but other than that what are you really doing that disruptive enough that you need to do such a thing?
Vial often allows one to cast two creatures on turn three and there are combat tricks available. It allows one to hold up mana and to delay putting creatures into play until the opponents EoT which can be useful.
Its not actually. Yeah you can theoretically do it and it kinda sorta works but the hoops you go thru just to do it are more than its really worth.
You have to remember the wording on exemplar is "Other Knights" so in itself it doesn't have indestructible meaning you need two so that both gain that keyword. Or that you need a darksteel plate on your exemplar. Getting a exemp is a 1 in 60, getting two is a 1 in 120, same for any combination of exemplar and plate depending on the ratios. That isn't factoring in the land ratio to run wrath/day/damnnation alongside its own ratio of how many in the deck to when you need it to draw factor. Which also squeezes the amount of flex space down for other parts of the agro cards needed.
This all assumes that the knight/s isn't removed by path, bounced, killed before equipped, opponent has no -x/-x effects, and so on.
I think bant is the way to go. You get noble and you get image. Then you get a hard counter in sb with unified will. Mana fixing isn’t really a problem with noble, fetches, and orchids either. I’m running 8 lords plus 4 images.
Ok you can use Dauntless but then you are two for oneing yourself to maybe remove 3 to maybe 4 creatures. Which could yes win you the game depending on board state but its still a 1/120+ chance at happening alongside getting the wrath when needed.
If you use Selfless Spirit then you may as well drop exemplar altogether and add Honor of the pure or a glorious anthem type card like Benalish marshal so that you are still two for oneing yourself but you get an evasive beater in the air as alongside keeping the buff going on your tokens and other knights. The only real issue I have for vial is are we always keeping it at two or would it be better at three so we have more reactives in like dropping spirit or exemplar during an opponents turn or in response to a removal?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Haakan in a mostly W deck with no way to bin cards just seems weird. Vial and CoCo together also seems weird..
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
//Lands
21 Plains
//Enchantments
3 Honor of the Pure
3 Oblivion Ring
//Instants
2 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
//Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Creatures
2 Hero of Bladehold
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Student of Warfare
1 Sun Titan
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Here she is:
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
Religion & Lore (5)
1 Worship
4 History of Benalia
Wizardry (8)
4 Selesnya Charm
4 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Fiefs (23)
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Temple Garden
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Plains
2 Forest
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Gavony Township
1 Brushland
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Sundering Growth
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Heroic Intervention
Whadaya think? Sorry/not sorry if the feudalism terms were annoying/confusing/distracting. I'm not sold on the Heroic Interventions. I'm also not certain about the 4x Knight Exemplar. Knight of the Reliquary was definitely a consideration for its obvious synergy with both the knight buffs as well as the double-buff from Wilt-Leaf Liege. In the end I decided I didn't want to have to rely on the graveyard whatsoever. If I change my mind and end up wanting KotR, I would venture to guess that some of the Exemplars would have to go before the Crusaders (and of course I would change the land-base). Mirran Crusader gives this deck an unreal (and absolutely essential in this format) clock. Selesnya Charm is so much better than I thought it would be. It's been a real all-star. It makes Crusader swing for 8. It buffs a dude out of Lightning Bolt/Anger of the Gods range. It exiles Wurmcoil Engine, various Eldrazi, Gurmag Anglers and Goyfs (like Crusader cares about Anglers and Goyfs). But most importantly it's another 2/2 vigilant knight, and it stands out because it has flash. Having some instant speed stuff makes us way less one-dimensional. WLL adds some hate against BGx decks (like we need anymore with 4x Mirran Crusaders MB) and Burning Inquiry and such, as well as providing a buff. Elspeth can help refill our boardstate, but most importantly makes Crusader swing for 10 in the air. Gideon is a grind machine that spits out 2/2 knights every turn.
History of Benalia is an absolute house. If y'all haven't been brewing with it yet you need to get on it. That card is a value machine.
The SB is very hateful, just like a white SB should be. Sundering Growth is some sweet tech. It destroys problematic opposition while forwarding our aggro/go wide plan
Please let me know what you think. I'm excited about it. History of Benalia has really changed things for knights I believe.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Also with all the vigilance creatures you are playing Knotvine Paladin can be a monster there.
Lastly I also recommend Knight of the White Orchid because ramping is so important!! You can play some wildfield borderpost to combo with it
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Dauntless Bodyguard
4 Accorder Paladin
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Honor of the Pure
4 History of Benalia
Land
15 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
Artifact
2 Silver-Inlaid Dagger
4 Path to Exile
2 Basilisk Collar
2 Smuggler's Copter
SB needs work of course but Mono White has a few interesting toys now.
Dagger seems mediocre imho.
Not sure I'd prefer Accorder Paladin to Knight of the Holy Nimbus, Knight of Meadowgrain or Leonin Skyhunter as it dies really easily in combat.
Also where is Mirran Crusader ? Probably one of the best Knights in the format.
Wilt-Leaf Liege and Benalish Marshal would be good here as well.
Another good card for the deck is Gideon, Ally of Zendikar which I'd take over Hero of Bladehold.
Wow... I sure missed that one, didn’t I? That’s actually a pretty big bummer. Charm had so much more utility for me in my ignorance. It may not seem like a big blow at a glance, but that takes away some major utility from this deck. I’m really glad you pointed that out instead of having me go on living a lie for who knows how much longer. I’d have hate to have been made aware of that in the middle of a tournament.
I have some brewing to do then. Still, I strongly suggest everyone try History with Wilt-Leaf Liege and/or Gideon. Turn-two History into turn-three Liege or Gideon is a huge clock/source of value. Of course Mirran Crusader into Elspeth hits your opponent like a freight train, preferably on turn-three for 12 damage with an exalted trigger.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
So to make this deck competitive, that's where the improvement needs to happen - you have to keep get your threats out early, ramp them in power as the game goes along without trading threats 1-for-1, and find a way to swing for the win before the other team can establish their board position. Without card draw, that's a really tall order these days.
So here's what I would start with (note: it's not cheap!):
4 Student of Warfare
4 Dauntless Bodyguard
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 History of Benalia
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Lead the Stampede
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Plains
I'd probably add: 4x Noble Hierarch + 4x Knight of the Reliquary over: Gideon, Lead and History.
Also, Steward of Valeron is probably a more reliable ramp creature than Orchid.
I'm not sure that KotR helps, though. The deck currently only has four fetch lands, which means you need to keep him on the board, sans protection, without attacking and sac your own lands in response. Plus, Gideon, Lead, and History are vital in the war of attrition - all three are able to generate more than one creature, which is absolutely necessary without having any other way of gaining card advantage.
What about a more equipmenty shell?
4 Dauntless Bodyguard
4 Puresteel Paladin
3 Danitha Capashen, Paragon
4 Knight Exemplar
Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Steelshaper's Gift
4 Sigarda's Aid
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Godsend
1 Pariah's Shield
1 Scythe of the Wretched
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
18 Plains
And I think Mirror Entity is a great idea and worth some testing. It can turn all our dorks into knights in response to History’s third lore counter. It can also make all our little 2/2 knights into absolute powerhouses once you have a little mana up.
Also, I think Worship is a great include in the MB. There’s lots of decks that just don’t have an answer for it game-one. It’s a great way to steal a game. Sometimes all you need is one more turn to swing lethal, and Worship can buy you that turn. I’ve often considered running a Sword in the MB as well. There’s plenty of warm bodies to carry one, including double-strikers and flyers.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Just wondering.. why isn't anyone talking about aether vial? Seems excellent always with tribal decks. I think keeping the curve down on the costs of the knights and running like green/white or red/white would be crazy! Especially with the new saga
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
You have to remember the wording on exemplar is "Other Knights" so in itself it doesn't have indestructible meaning you need two so that both gain that keyword. Or that you need a darksteel plate on your exemplar. Getting a exemp is a 1 in 60, getting two is a 1 in 120, same for any combination of exemplar and plate depending on the ratios. That isn't factoring in the land ratio to run wrath/day/damnnation alongside its own ratio of how many in the deck to when you need it to draw factor. Which also squeezes the amount of flex space down for other parts of the agro cards needed.
This all assumes that the knight/s isn't removed by path, bounced, killed before equipped, opponent has no -x/-x effects, and so on.
If you use Selfless Spirit then you may as well drop exemplar altogether and add Honor of the pure or a glorious anthem type card like Benalish marshal so that you are still two for oneing yourself but you get an evasive beater in the air as alongside keeping the buff going on your tokens and other knights. The only real issue I have for vial is are we always keeping it at two or would it be better at three so we have more reactives in like dropping spirit or exemplar during an opponents turn or in response to a removal?