I'm glad you're enjoying playing knights, even though it will certainly decrease your wallet size to make it remotely competitive.
On eiganjo castle: how do you propose to keep playing it when there isn't a single legal target in the deck? It does require a legendary creature to be the target, after all.
Hero of bladehold is a top end card. Personally, I prefer to play two, though three can be acceptable. 4 is a bit much, in my opinion.
If you're going to add in squadron hawk and more swords, you might consider equipment tutors, specifically steelshaper's gift and then only the one or two targets (main, at least) that you really routinely want to see. It might not also be a bad idea to run a mistveil plains (and fetches, as well) to keep the loop going.
Haaaaaa ya I'll take the castle out. Derp. I was thinking of the card all wrong.
On another note, a new route to take the deck may be Azourious, with, as you said, fetches and Squadron Hawks. This could provide tons of deck thinning allow us to use.. gross.. Treasure Cruise. Something like:
I like his potential, especially as a flier, and the potential to slow down a blocker and/or planeswalker. However, it'll definitely bump the curve up a bit.
Maybe:
-3 Knight of Meadowgrain
-1 Knight of the White Orchid
+3 Lyev Skyknight
+1 Mistveil Plains
I feel we can drop one White Orchid with all the fetches, since theres a chance we will get our Plains on the field quite easily. Knight of Meadowgrain seemed most cuttable of everything else.
I definitely wouldn't drop knight of meadowgrain with all the burn floating around. If you're going to use lyev skyknight (possible uses against pod, now that you mention it), some of the three drop knights might be a better call. Otherwise, you're going to end up in a perilous place with no early drops and lots of late drops, which is the same problem so many knight decks have already.
Do you think its to the point where we would need to maindeck Rest In Peace or should it stay in the sideboard? What I'm thinking so creature wise in a Bant build is cutting the Knights down to Knight of the Reliquary and Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers (since they're out of Bolt range) and giving Deft Duelist a shot. He may not be a Knight but I think there's potential with him.
It's hard to say. I don't think it would hurt to leave 1 RiP in your main and have the rest waiting in your sideboard, if the match demands it. If you opt to try this it may be better to have 1 Relic of Progenitus in your main and 1-2 RiP for your side.
That's an interesting choice, cutting down to bolt-proof creatures. You will lose the protection offered by Fiendslayer and Crusader but I don't think we will be seeing destroy effects from Abrupt Decay and the like with those new delve cards still around. So having bigger bodies may just be the more preferable choice.
Deft Duelist is interesting, obviously can't be a target for your own activated abilities but still works with anthems and BtE. If you give him a try let us know how it works out! Maybe it would be good in an aggro list with Thalia?
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Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Most of you guys arent running both student AND champion of the parish, u need both
This looks like a pretty sick aggro deck. I think you have far too many lands, though. Chop those down to 20, and add in 2-4 Knight of the White Orchid. You're gonna flood yourself with plains. You also need Cavern of Souls, you should run some of them as well. You are all set to name "Human" as the subtype.
Your sideboard is pretty ambitious, I don't think you will find the answers you need with what you're using. Those Paths should be a mandatory 4-of in your mainboard.
Also, since you have all the right conditions, you could try running 4x Suppression Field in your main to hose just about every deck in modern.
@weltkreig All righty. I can agree with you as well as Magicman on leaving in Meadowgrain. It also preserves the curve. What is your opinion on fitting in Lyev, if it at all. I feel like I want the Mirran Crusaders.. And obviously the Exemplars. I'm really not sure where to make cuts from my list. Thoughts?
It might work with Thalia, I'll find out tomorrow if someone else shows up for Modern. Land base is what I'm having the toughest time getting right, not having as many fetches as I would like not helping. Right now I'm thinking 4 Hallowed Fountain (would run 2 HF and 2 Seachrome Coast if I had them) and a Cavern of Souls (calling Human) for my non-basic blue sources and either 1 or 2 Islands so a Blood Moon doesn't shut me out of blue.
I also found another card from Shards of Alara I will be testing: Hindering Light. It's not as good as Brave the Elements for saving creatures, but it also can be used on myself or non-creature permanents, and it replaces itself when I cast it. I'm thinking of trying out 3 copies to see how it fares, then either cut to 2 or up to 4.
Seems like he would be pretty good with the Indestructible from Knight Exemplar, and the Battlecry pumps you for further attacking.
Ran him for a short while, when I tried to build the deck, back when it was in standard. I'd take a 2-damage first striker any day. We rarely attack with more than two creatures at a time, and this deck's main strength is being able to trade efficiently in creature-based matchups. I could see him in a heavy-combo meta, but otherwise I'd stick with the usual two-drops.
On another note, I dropped 2 matches to splinter-twin last FNM. What is the best sideboard choices for this matchup?
Against Twin, the best cards you could be running (imo) are Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison. SF is easier to resolve, they won't be able to make infinite creatures, and also hinders them in cracking fetches, but it also can be a pain if you're running fetches, equips, or Elspeth. GP will be slightly harder to resolve as it won't come down till T3, but it does prevent them from attacking you for infinity until you can find a Path to Exile (or possibly a Celestial Purge / Disenchant). Keep in mind though with GP, they can still make infinite blockers, so don't suicide your knights into them!
Which one is more effective depends on which version of Twin you're facing. Against the more combo oriented version, Suppression Field is superior as it additionally shuts down Spellskite to a certain extent. Against RUG Twin and Young Pyromancer Twin (the version I personally prefer), Ghostly Prison will be the better choice as it'll also make it harder for Tarmogoyf / elemental tokens to attack you.
However, you must expect that the Twin player has an out to either situation (usually some number of Echoing Truth), and they will cantrip / Dig Through Time crazy fast to find it, so be careful not to leave yourself without a response.
Totally agree with you on the effectiveness of Suppression Field and Ghostly Prison. I probably prefer SF to GP myself since it cancels out so much of the average opponent's strategy, whether its cracking fetchlands or using a creature ability. It can lose its effectiveness if you only draw one and move to a late game, but it's still a viable card most of the time. It's easy enough to build around in a monowhite list, and I don't see why you couldn't incorporate it into the main.
Magicman657, what's your opinion on Resto in a knights list? I'm using two Elspeth in mine and I might switch them out for 1 Resto and 1 Linvala.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
To be honest, in the current meta, I think lyev skyknight would probably be stronger than crusader maindeck. He's not a strong as fiendslayer paladin (semi protection from black and red and lifelink make him pretty strong right now). Crusader is obscenely strong against black/green decks, but only there. Everywhere else he has "bolt me" written all over him! I would playtest 2 of him and 2 of the crusader and see just which one you prefer to see in several game ones? Also, he arguably carries a sword better than crusader, as he can't get easily chump blocked.
Hey everyone! I had the good fortune to play against MetaphysicalxProdigy on MTGO last night, and he encouraged me to finally register here and join the discussion. In case anyone hasn't read it yet, he has a great guide over on TappedOut (can't link it yet, too new to the forum, but Googling "tapped out western way of war" will pull it up). That guide and this thread have been really helpful to me over the past few months as I've gotten into modern more seriously.
Here is the deck I played against him last night (he won BTW, 2-1 I believe.) It's about what I take to Modern FNM each week. The best result I ever posted was the first week I showed (I went 3-1).
I do want to plug Chalice of the Void. It is a brutal sideboard card. It can-by itself-hose entire decks. Usually, we want to drop it for X=1, and that leads to very awkward side-boarding with regards to our own spells and can leave you in a chalice or bust mode (I'm still figuring out the balance). I learned of it over in the GW Hatebears thread (again, can't post a link to the specific post, but it's page 53, post 1321, and there's a link from the main post, sideboard section). Then break down common decks and what to set it at. It can break Infect and Boggles (which I often have trouble with). It obliterates Jeskai Ascendancy (not that big a deal though) and really, really helps against Burn and UR Delver. (I do miss Suppression Field though.)
I think Horizon Canopy is a good choice. I often have problems flooding out or getting mana screwed. I might go to 21 lands and use the horizon canopies to (hopefully) keep from flooding.
Other random thoughts from a few months of FNM (keep in mind that my local meta is very heavily skewed towards UR. I have literally never played a Jund deck. Pod is the closest I've seen).
*UWR Control is a terrible matchup. I've only won one match against them, ever. It seems to come down to sticking a pro-red dude and trying to keep it from dying to Path, Snapcaster (poor Kor Firewalker), or Celestial Colonade).
*I have seriously considered mainboarding Rest in Peace, especially recently. Shutting down snap-caster and Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time might be worth it.
*Without Suppression Field, Twin is really hard. On MTGO, and I saw 3 Paths and 1 Celestial Purge and he still went off before I could kill him.
*I do not have a mana curve; I have a mana camel. I'm working on it, but the 3-drop knights are the best knights.
*Running the math, 60 vs. 61/62 cards isn't that big a deal (<0.9% change in seeing a card, or 1-in-100 games-at least as a rough estimate), so I don't worry too much for FNM. If I were going to a tournament, I'd probably buckle down and cut something.
*I'm thinking of changing how I sideboard. Right now there are too many things I want 4-of and NEED in the opening hand. Maybe try to broaden out and diversify (and cram Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace back in).
*Also, I think a 5th general removal spell might be good. Dismember is probably too painful for a heavy burn meta, but I've been thinking about Celestial Flare. It's hilarious if nothing else.
Basically, I always have too many things I want in the deck. You always have cards that are perfect for your situation (the 3-drops with protection usually), but it comes down to if you draw the correct one at the right time. I'm working on balancing the creatures (mainly the curve and the 3 drops) with the late-game (Swords, Light, Elspeth) and with the control (RiP, etc).
Welcome to the thread! It's always great to have a knight lover here. Typically, I play darth knights now but with treasure cruise and bolt everywhere it's not the best option. With that said, I have a ton of experience playing vintage and legacy white weenie variants and knights are among them.
I' be worried about running such a heavy curve. I realize that the protection creatures are your best bet, but have you given any thought to just sticking with one and putting the other in the board? You mentioned jund was nearly non existent (except for pod) so maybe mirran crusader goes in the board for that reason?
Are the swords really worth it? I do like them, but I would think that even if you only draw a couple of knights out, light from within just seems stronger, which would make suppression field (and by extension, rest in peace) a much stronger maindeck card.
If your meta is so heavily in blue, then maybe you should consider a sideboarded green card, specifically choke? Resolving that should just about ruin their day. It wouldn't even take much, since you already have 4 horizon canopy main.
Was not able to play last time Modern fired, hoping it fires today so I can give the verdict on Deft Duelist and Hindering Light. This is what I've got so far, still need to figure out the creature lineup:
The single copies of Flooded Strand and Windswept Heath are the only ones I own. I'm thinking of trying out Kira, Great Glass-Spinner if I can trade for a copy. I'm also going to try and get more Meddling Mages.
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Collecting Timbermare, hit me up if you have any for trade
A burn player pretty much has to use a burn spell on Meadowgrain which is one not going to the dome. Silver doesn't put up enough of a clock to consider that switch.
They also have real difficulty removing Nimbus. Silver would obviously be better against burn but Nimbus is better in other match-ups.
There's no question, real protection is good and protection from R is probably most relevant right now. But Meadowgrain and Fiendslayer Paladin main-deck seem pretty effective in the match-up.
I do run 11 two-drops so Silver could contend with White Shield Crusader for the last three slots but I'm not convinced Silver would win out there either. Silver would definitely take some side-board slots from Paladin en-Vec. I'd actually like that a bunch.
A burn player pretty much has to use a burn spell on Meadowgrain which is one not going to the dome. Silver doesn't put up enough of a clock to consider that switch.
They also have real difficulty removing Nimbus. Silver would obviously be better against burn but Nimbus is better in other match-ups.
There's no question, real protection is good and protection from R is probably most relevant right now. But Meadowgrain and Fiendslayer Paladin main-deck seem pretty effective in the match-up.
I do run 11 two-drops so Silver could contend with White Shield Crusader for the last three slots but I'm not convinced Silver would win out there either. Silver would definitely take some side-board slots from Paladin en-Vec. I'd actually like that a bunch.
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
Burn decks often have Volcanic Fallout in the side-board, Anger of the Gods less often. Still, life-gain seems better than protection.
Nimbus does not shine in the grindy games but he's a beast early and what do you want from a two-drop? Still, I seem to be the only one running him so I'm probably wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I get to play Day of Judgment with Nimbus in play.
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
Burn decks often have Volcanic Fallout in the side-board, Anger of the Gods less often. Still, life-gain seems better than protection.
Nimbus does not shine in the grindy games but he's a beast early and what do you want from a two-drop? Still, I seem to be the only one running him so I'm probably wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I get to play Day of Judgment with Nimbus in play.
I think it would be a tempo loss for me if I cast or vial Fiendslayer Paladin, only to have Volcanic Fallout played soon after. The life gain wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
I don't play tournaments, so I'm not sure how often that would come up.
That sure looks beautiful! I'm also aiming to splash some green, so, what's the general consensus on Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers and Wilt-Leaf Liege?
The general consensus from prior discussions is that Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is usable and dodges Lightning Bolt, but since it costs 3 mana, it competes with other Knights at the same CMC. If you have room for it, you can try to use it.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is 4 CMC, and depending on your deck build, it may not make the cut. Some builds don't go above 3 CMC, while others think Hero of Bladehold and Elspeth, Knight-Errant are better choices at 4 CMC. However, if you think your meta has discard, particularly Liliana of the Veil, then Wilt-Leaf Liege may be worth including.
Greetings everyone. It has been a while. Knights tribal, any tribal for that matter, is often looked down upon by most Magic players. Some characterize it as beginners deck and often times look down. While I will admit this could hold some merit, thinking along this lines is often very shallow and limiting. People should play decks they want to play, not be coerced into playing something they do not want to. It is this obvious sentiment that often escapes so many magic players, even seasoned ones.
Alas, I digress. The decklist I am giving is a list that hopefully many beginning and seasoned players would gravitate around. Is it perfect? Far from it, but that statement goes for most, if not all decks. Please note, this post and my decklist will be extensive. So, if you want the explanation of card choices, see the bottom hafl.
Introduction and Deck-list
I won't lie. I love Knights. Beyond Magic the gathering, there is a sense of wonder. There are chivalrous and most of time, willing to do the right thing. That said, to build a competitive knights deck was a daunting challenge. That said, the first thing was that I needed to change my mindset on approaching the deck. Being biased towards this concept, the goal of creating a "knights" deck would be very limiting. The idea had the potential to blind me and possibly make me overlook or completely ignore card choices. So my thinking towards this concept was simple. Don't build a Knight's deck. Build a good white weenie deck.
This seems very odd, but allow me to explain. Aggro as well all know are decks who utilize creatures to beat down opponents. With White weenie, one aims to cast, cheap, effective creatures to accomplish the above tasks. When someone has that mindset, the choices of what cards to use becomes much easier.
Without further ado, here is my list:
Creatures(28)
one CMC(4)
4x Student of Warfare
Two CMC(12)
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Leonin Skyhunter
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
Three CMC(8)
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Wilt Leaf Cavalier
Four CMC(5)
3x Wilt Leaf Liege
2x Kinsbaile Cavalier.
Artifacts(4)
4x Aether Vial
Instants (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Brave the Elements
Enchantments
2x Leyline of Sancity
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Rest in Peace
Artifacts(2)
2x Torpor Orb
Card choices and explanations: I shall go over all of the card choices. Note some explanations will be more detailed than others. This is due to familarity and I am assuming those who are reading this post have the necessary context.
Creatures
1) Student of Warfare: There is very little explanation needed. While no figure of destiny, the fact it levels to become a 3/3 with first strike is immense. First strike is one of those abilities most players don't take into account. The 4/4 with double strike is nice. Especially, when your board is sweeped, this can make all excess mana you have go to good use.
2) Knight of the White Orchid: A 2/2 with first strike is really good. But the fact this card searches for land(untapped) is really good. Assuming you haven't played a land for turn, this card can single handily double your mana base. And considering the cheap CMC of this deck(2.05 AVG, if anyone was curious), this card is quite useful. This card can be combined with Aether Vial. How? Imagine the scene. You have a vial on two, and you cast an orchid normally. With a second Orchid in hand, you vial it in. Given it's ability checks if the opponent controls more land, you can search up TWO plains and put them on the field.
3) Leonin Skyhunter: Not much to say about this choice. A 2/2 with flying is a solid beater. Evasion is always useful, especially in Modern. Can block flying threats like Celestial Colonade, or that annoying Signal Pest for Affinity. As for why I run four instead of Meadwowgrain that is simple preference. Feel free to change the number, if you so choose.
4) Knight of Meadowgrain: This card is quite powerful. A 2/2 with first strike and lifelink is solid. Gaining extra life is very useful, especially against other aggro decks. This card is also useful for baiting a removal spell, as the opponent will have to deal with other threats. Quite powerful, when combined with Aether Vial as a blocker.
5) Knight Exemplar: There are many things I need to say about this card. Although very powerful, it is in my view very overrated. Let's start with it's positives. Having first strike is very useful, even though a 2/2 for 3 CMC. But what makes Exemplar powerful is her 1+/+1 and indestructibility. This single effect trounces on most other aggro decks. Knowing you can block most threats(without trample) and swing in, without fear of creatures dying is always an added plus. This is especially the case with double exemplar on the field. That said, the negative of this card is plenty. From sacrificing to negative counters and exiling, there are a plethora of ways to deal with this card. Most likely your opponent will be gunning for this card. If it costs more resources to protect this card, just let them die.
This deck was designed to operate with OR WITHOUT exemplar.
6) Wilt Leaf Cavlier: My favorite card in the entire deck and the bread and butter beater. To give some background, I originally ran Honor of the Pure, along with Mirran Crusader. While I enjoyed this build, Honor was too slow and Crusader, while powerful is too vulnerable to simple removal, like lightning bolt. Ironically, it was thanks to a close friend that I found this card. For starters, this card is a 3/4. For experienced players, 4 toughness is the magic number, in that it dodges lightning bolt.
Having a creature dodge bolt is always a plus. But it's second ability vigilance is even more relevant. Being able to swing in for at least 3 damage minimum and be a blocker is very useful against many threats. All in all, this card is my favorite and will continue to remain a favorite.
7) Wilt Leaf Liege: This is another card I shall spend time discussing. Running another lord in knights seems ludicrous. While Knights doesn't have many lord choices, unlike Merfolk, it is possible. As a 4/4 Liege is already powerful. But his buff ability makes this deck an absolute nightmare(get it, 'nightmare'. I know, corny). When considering Cavalier, having a 5/6 makes this deck even more of a hassle to deal with. And finally, liege's second ability is very useful. The fact he is set onto the battlefield via discard is really annoying. This is especially the case against the Junk, or Rock player who Liliana it out of hand.
8) Kinsbaile Cavalier: A very good surprise card. Double strike is especially powerful, for offensive and defensive purposes. The fact Kinsbaile itself has double strike is already powerful. When combined with Aether Vial, this card is a great finisher.
Artifacts and instants
1) Aether Vial: This card is a key cornerstone of our deck. Akin to Mono white hatebears( Death and Taxes) and Merfolk, there is a reason why this card is utilized. Flashing creatures in for blockers or end of turn is quite useful. The mana acceleration behind this card is absolutely nuts, as it leaves mana open to cast other creatures or spells.
2) Brave the Elements: The versatility behind this card is second to none. This card can be used offensively to alpha strike opponents or defensively against spot removal, or blocking. This card can really catch most opponents off guard and remains my favorite noncreature spell. This card is wonderful against pyroclasm and Anger, as protection from red prevents damage.
3) Path to Exile: There is very little I can say about this. In my view, this is the best removal spell in modern. It is no swords to plowshares, but it will get the job done at removing most threats.
Land
1) Cavern of Souls: This is a tribal deck. Given control and combo is the hardest matchup, having creatures coming in without being countered is really nice. The card also fixes out mana, color wise, so as to cast plenty of color intensive spells.
2) Windbrisk Heights: This card is absolutely nuts. While it is a tap land, the fact one can card a card, without playing it's converted mana cost is quite powerful, like Brave the elements for instance. Given the clause states that creatures need to have attacked, you can cast the cards during second main phase.
2) Tectonic Edge: A useful card. It can deal with man lands, as well as destroying key mana bases, such as tron.
Sideboard:
1) Thalia: This card is quite powerful. Although no knight, Thalia's ability makes playing control a living nightmare, along with storm. Her first strike is useful, and given opponents will need to waste removal to get rid of her is critical.
2) Aven Mindcensor: This card is ridiculous on its own. Flash is very useful, but preventing searches can slow down a ton of decks, like Scapeshift, Pod and Tron. Evasion is always useful and given brave the elements can protect this card, it is quite useful.
3) Katak: If Affinity had a kyrptonite, Kataki would be this card. Interestingly enough, Wizards printed this card in response to Affinity. Given the archtype broke standard, I am not surprise. When combined with Aether vial, this card becomes a nasty surprise for Robots, and puts the opponent on the defensive. Most of time the enemy will pray for a galvanic Blast or Whipflare to deal with this enemy.
4) Leyline of Sancity: Our weakest matchup is combo and Affinity. For the former, Leyline provides us with an out against the threat. It also pulls its weight against mill effects and the Rock and Junk with their discard effects.
5) Rest in peace: This card shuts down any graveyard based deck. It is very useful against pod, especially Merlira Pod, as they need the graveyard for their combo to be pulled out.
6) Ghostly Prison: This card helps stymie other aggro decks, like Zoo. But more important, this card halts Splinter Twin, as they cannot fully combo out and kill us.
7) Torpor Orb: This card is again for Splinter Twin, but is also reserved for pod, as Pod tends to run plenty of enter the battlefield effects. Though, this card does hurt Orchid.
Conclusion: This decklist should be taken with a grain of salt,even though I have explained my reasons. One of the great things about this game is experimentation. Continue to innovate and try out new things. It is through trial and error that one can produce something wonderful. This deck took three years to properly test and refine. And even then, I have some brand new ideas for said decklist.
Greetings everyone. It has been a while. Knights tribal, any tribal for that matter, is often looked down upon by most Magic players. Some characterize it as beginners deck and often times look down. While I will admit this could hold some merit, thinking along this lines is often very shallow and limiting. People should play decks they want to play, not be coerced into playing something they do not want to. It is this obvious sentiment that often escapes so many magic players, even seasoned ones.
Alas, I digress. The decklist I am giving is a list that hopefully many beginning and seasoned players would gravitate around. Is it perfect? Far from it, but that statement goes for most, if not all decks. Please note, this post and my decklist will be extensive. So, if you want the explanation of card choices, see the bottom hafl.
Introduction and Deck-list
I won't lie. I love Knights. Beyond Magic the gathering, there is a sense of wonder. There are chivalrous and most of time, willing to do the right thing. That said, to build a competitive knights deck was a daunting challenge. That said, the first thing was that I needed to change my mindset on approaching the deck. Being biased towards this concept, the goal of creating a "knights" deck would be very limiting. The idea had the potential to blind me and possibly make me overlook or completely ignore card choices. So my thinking towards this concept was simple. Don't build a Knight's deck. Build a good white weenie deck.
This seems very odd, but allow me to explain. Aggro as well all know are decks who utilize creatures to beat down opponents. With White weenie, one aims to cast, cheap, effective creatures to accomplish the above tasks. When someone has that mindset, the choices of what cards to use becomes much easier.
Hey man, it looks like you took a lot of care to write this post so i'll try and give you a thorough response. As a fellow (huge) Bleach fan, I also couldn't settle for anything less.
I wouldn't say magic players look down on tribal in general. Merfolk is one of the strongest decks out there. Fairies is close behind.
Hatebears and zoo are almost tribal in their consistency. Lots of cats, beasts, soldiers and clerics. Those decks are well-respected and well known. Knights is just a modified version that plays more of a midrange game. You appear to have captured this essence in your card rationale.
Based on what you said, it seems like you must have had a run in with someone in a game or someone criticized knights tribal in general. I appreciate the attempt to wax philosophic, but I would disagree in Knights tribal being regarded as a beginner deck and looked down upon. I think it's quite the opposite: knights take a lot of skill to play competitively in a blazing fast meta with an overabundance of well-costed spells and should-be-banned cards. This is especially the case in modern, where Snapcaster Mage, Treasure Cruise, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and others are allowed to exist. You are using a comparatively less expensive deck in a meta of power cards that prey on fair play itself. What's important is that because we aren't at the top, we can adapt to beat them. And believe me, it's very satisfying to destroy a $600 deck in two rounds. Not to mention everyone who watches your game will be cheering for you, the underdog.
In almost all of my games people either didn't say anything or complimented the deck and applauded me for using something less mainstream. Competitive players know about knight tribal. After I lost to this one guy at modern tournament at my LGS (he was a pro player that has gone to national qualifiers in Canada) I overheard him chatting with his buddy about the match, his familiarity with knight tribal and the tough game he faced. I played another guy during that tourney who ran a retrace-loam list and had never played against knights before. He was sweating buckets and very narrowly beat me after topdecking three goyfs. Lots of compliments on the tribe there too (and those were among my first serious games, before the deck got an overhaul).
I have only had one experience with some jerk, and that was on MTGO. It was a Jund player who probably felt he shouldn't have to toil playing against some peasant deck with his full set of Bob, Lilianna, Goyf, fetches, etc. After I beat him down with a Skyhunter he took about a minute to stare at the battlefield, then said "I can't believe I lost to this *****" and quit. I laughed. I cried. I took a picture of the chat with my phone.
So don't underestimate what knight tribal is capable of! I have had many compliments on its consistency once Light from Within saw play and opponents realized there was nothing they could do. One guy said "knights are still smashing face and seem strong as ever". We would probably disagree on this forum (our tribe hasn't gotten a lot of love from Wizards in quite a while) but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.
When I get time this December, maybe in January too, i'm going to enter some of the MTGO Modern Daily tournaments. I'll make it my goal to get this thread re-pinned on MTG Salvation's Modern decklist forum. Anyways, let's take a look at your deck. I put it in proper formatting.
Card choices and explanations: I shall go over all of the card choices. Note some explanations will be more detailed than others. This is due to familarity and I am assuming those who are reading this post have the necessary context.
Creatures
1) Student of Warfare: There is very little explanation needed. While no figure of destiny, the fact it levels to become a 3/3 with first strike is immense. First strike is one of those abilities most players don't take into account. The 4/4 with double strike is nice. Especially, when your board is sweeped, this can make all excess mana you have go to good use.
2) Knight of the White Orchid: A 2/2 with first strike is really good. But the fact this card searches for land(untapped) is really good. Assuming you haven't played a land for turn, this card can single handily double your mana base. And considering the cheap CMC of this deck(2.05 AVG, if anyone was curious), this card is quite useful. This card can be combined with Aether Vial. How? Imagine the scene. You have a vial on two, and you cast an orchid normally. With a second Orchid in hand, you vial it in. Given it's ability checks if the opponent controls more land, you can search up TWO plains and put them on the field.
3) Leonin Skyhunter: Not much to say about this choice. A 2/2 with flying is a solid beater. Evasion is always useful, especially in Modern. Can block flying threats like Celestial Colonade, or that annoying Signal Pest for Affinity. As for why I run four instead of Meadwowgrain that is simple preference. Feel free to change the number, if you so choose.
4) Knight of Meadowgrain: This card is quite powerful. A 2/2 with first strike and lifelink is solid. Gaining extra life is very useful, especially against other aggro decks. This card is also useful for baiting a removal spell, as the opponent will have to deal with other threats. Quite powerful, when combined with Aether Vial as a blocker.
5) Knight Exemplar: There are many things I need to say about this card. Although very powerful, it is in my view very overrated. Let's start with it's positives. Having first strike is very useful, even though a 2/2 for 3 CMC. But what makes Exemplar powerful is her 1+/+1 and indestructibility. This single effect trounces on most other aggro decks. Knowing you can block most threats(without trample) and swing in, without fear of creatures dying is always an added plus. This is especially the case with double exemplar on the field. That said, the negative of this card is plenty. From sacrificing to negative counters and exiling, there are a plethora of ways to deal with this card. Most likely your opponent will be gunning for this card. If it costs more resources to protect this card, just let them die.
This deck was designed to operate with OR WITHOUT exemplar.
6) Wilt Leaf Cavlier: My favorite card in the entire deck and the bread and butter beater. To give some background, I originally ran Honor of the Pure, along with Mirran Crusader. While I enjoyed this build, Honor was too slow and Crusader, while powerful is too vulnerable to simple removal, like lightning bolt. Ironically, it was thanks to a close friend that I found this card. For starters, this card is a 3/4. For experienced players, 4 toughness is the magic number, in that it dodges lightning bolt.
Having a creature dodge bolt is always a plus. But it's second ability vigilance is even more relevant. Being able to swing in for at least 3 damage minimum and be a blocker is very useful against many threats. All in all, this card is my favorite and will continue to remain a favorite.
7) Wilt Leaf Liege: This is another card I shall spend time discussing. Running another lord in knights seems ludicrous. While Knights doesn't have many lord choices, unlike Merfolk, it is possible. As a 4/4 Liege is already powerful. But his buff ability makes this deck an absolute nightmare(get it, 'nightmare'. I know, corny). When considering Cavalier, having a 5/6 makes this deck even more of a hassle to deal with. And finally, liege's second ability is very useful. The fact he is set onto the battlefield via discard is really annoying. This is especially the case against the Junk, or Rock player who Liliana it out of hand.
8) Kinsbaile Cavalier: A very good surprise card. Double strike is especially powerful, for offensive and defensive purposes. The fact Kinsbaile itself has double strike is already powerful. When combined with Aether Vial, this card is a great finisher.
Artifacts and instants
1) Aether Vial: This card is a key cornerstone of our deck. Akin to Mono white hatebears( Death and Taxes) and Merfolk, there is a reason why this card is utilized. Flashing creatures in for blockers or end of turn is quite useful. The mana acceleration behind this card is absolutely nuts, as it leaves mana open to cast other creatures or spells.
2) Brave the Elements: The versatility behind this card is second to none. This card can be used offensively to alpha strike opponents or defensively against spot removal, or blocking. This card can really catch most opponents off guard and remains my favorite noncreature spell. This card is wonderful against pyroclasm and Anger, as protection from red prevents damage.
3) Path to Exile: There is very little I can say about this. In my view, this is the best removal spell in modern. It is no swords to plowshares, but it will get the job done at removing most threats.
Land
1) Cavern of Souls: This is a tribal deck. Given control and combo is the hardest matchup, having creatures coming in without being countered is really nice. The card also fixes out mana, color wise, so as to cast plenty of color intensive spells.
2) Windbrisk Heights: This card is absolutely nuts. While it is a tap land, the fact one can card a card, without playing it's converted mana cost is quite powerful, like Brave the elements for instance. Given the clause states that creatures need to have attacked, you can cast the cards during second main phase.
2) Tectonic Edge: A useful card. It can deal with man lands, as well as destroying key mana bases, such as tron.
Sideboard:
1) Thalia: This card is quite powerful. Although no knight, Thalia's ability makes playing control a living nightmare, along with storm. Her first strike is useful, and given opponents will need to waste removal to get rid of her is critical.
2) Aven Mindcensor: This card is ridiculous on its own. Flash is very useful, but preventing searches can slow down a ton of decks, like Scapeshift, Pod and Tron. Evasion is always useful and given brave the elements can protect this card, it is quite useful.
3) Katak: If Affinity had a kyrptonite, Kataki would be this card. Interestingly enough, Wizards printed this card in response to Affinity. Given the archtype broke standard, I am not surprise. When combined with Aether vial, this card becomes a nasty surprise for Robots, and puts the opponent on the defensive. Most of time the enemy will pray for a galvanic Blast or Whipflare to deal with this enemy.
4) Leyline of Sancity: Our weakest matchup is combo and Affinity. For the former, Leyline provides us with an out against the threat. It also pulls its weight against mill effects and the Rock and Junk with their discard effects.
5) Rest in peace: This card shuts down any graveyard based deck. It is very useful against pod, especially Merlira Pod, as they need the graveyard for their combo to be pulled out.
6) Ghostly Prison: This card helps stymie other aggro decks, like Zoo. But more important, this card halts Splinter Twin, as they cannot fully combo out and kill us.
7) Torpor Orb: This card is again for Splinter Twin, but is also reserved for pod, as Pod tends to run plenty of enter the battlefield effects. Though, this card does hurt Orchid.
Conclusion: This decklist should be taken with a grain of salt,even though I have explained my reasons. One of the great things about this game is experimentation. Continue to innovate and try out new things. It is through trial and error that one can produce something wonderful. This deck took three years to properly test and refine. And even then, I have some brand new ideas for said decklist.
Take care.
It seems you have a good understanding of the function of each card in the deck. You have rounded out the curve and it looks like a solid aggro list. You have also identified the possibility of stacking Knight of the White Orchid's ability twice by playing one normally and vialing one in simultaneously (getting a 2-for-1 land deal). Unfortunately, I don't believe this would work. This ain't no fee simple. The ability will check to see if you have less land than an opponent, and after your first stack trigger resolves the second one will see that you both have the same amount of land and will fizzle. I could be wrong! Maybe someone here can confirm for me.
What distinguishes your deck from most of the lists posted here is your choice to run a full set of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, 3x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 2x Kinsbaile Cavalier. I think the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is a viable card and a good choice. Same goes for Liege (his anthem is relevant in your deck given your high creature count). [Insert sales pitch for Light from Within and how good it is with the elf knights]. Kinsbaile is a bit of a risky play, more like a bomb that you want to play then swing for the win. Vialing him in to double the attack power of some unblocked creatures is a great finisher. Just don't expect him to stick around on the board for too long with that juicy 4cmc cost and 2 toughness. Windbrisk Heights seems possible in your deck, again given your high creature count and low average CMC cost. Let us know how it works!
You noted in your conclusion that it takes time and lots of trial and error for a knight deck to evolve. It took my knight deck a similar amount of time (about 4 years) to get to where it is. Only thing I would add is it's not just trial and error; it's also trial by fire. [pun intended]
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
Burn decks often have Volcanic Fallout in the side-board, Anger of the Gods less often. Still, life-gain seems better than protection.
Nimbus does not shine in the grindy games but he's a beast early and what do you want from a two-drop? Still, I seem to be the only one running him so I'm probably wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I get to play Day of Judgment with Nimbus in play.
I think it would be a tempo loss for me if I cast or vial Fiendslayer Paladin, only to have Volcanic Fallout played soon after. The life gain wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
I don't play tournaments, so I'm not sure how often that would come up.
That sure looks beautiful! I'm also aiming to splash some green, so, what's the general consensus on Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers and Wilt-Leaf Liege?
The general consensus from prior discussions is that Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is usable and dodges Lightning Bolt, but since it costs 3 mana, it competes with other Knights at the same CMC. If you have room for it, you can try to use it.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is 4 CMC, and depending on your deck build, it may not make the cut. Some builds don't go above 3 CMC, while others think Hero of Bladehold and Elspeth, Knight-Errant are better choices at 4 CMC. However, if you think your meta has discard, particularly Liliana of the Veil, then Wilt-Leaf Liege may be worth including.
I don't see burn sweepers that often. I've seen Pyroclasm used more than anything else. Most players today seem content with spot removal... Just be wary of it in non-aggro decks. According to MTGTop8 Pyroclasm is only used in 3.8% of the common meta decks nowadays. Unlike the lovely Lightning Bolt, now at a whopping 53.1%! That's right, expect to see it in 1 of every 2 games you play.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Hey guys, Im currently playing with puresteel build but I though about building a non-vial build to play sometimes. Dunno if it is good, right now it is only on theory and I would like ur opinions and suggestions about it.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Student of Warfare
4 Daring Skyjek
4 Accorder Paladin
4 White Knight
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Hero of Bladehold
3 Fiendslayer Paladin
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
3 Path to Exile
3 Brave the Elements
Most of you guys arent running both student AND champion of the parish, u need both
On eiganjo castle: how do you propose to keep playing it when there isn't a single legal target in the deck? It does require a legendary creature to be the target, after all.
Hero of bladehold is a top end card. Personally, I prefer to play two, though three can be acceptable. 4 is a bit much, in my opinion.
If you're going to add in squadron hawk and more swords, you might consider equipment tutors, specifically steelshaper's gift and then only the one or two targets (main, at least) that you really routinely want to see. It might not also be a bad idea to run a mistveil plains (and fetches, as well) to keep the loop going.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
On another note, a new route to take the deck may be Azourious, with, as you said, fetches and Squadron Hawks. This could provide tons of deck thinning allow us to use.. gross.. Treasure Cruise. Something like:
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Brave the Elements
3 Path to Exile
2 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
5 Plains
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Maybe:
-3 Knight of Meadowgrain
-1 Knight of the White Orchid
+3 Lyev Skyknight
+1 Mistveil Plains
I feel we can drop one White Orchid with all the fetches, since theres a chance we will get our Plains on the field quite easily. Knight of Meadowgrain seemed most cuttable of everything else.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
That's an interesting choice, cutting down to bolt-proof creatures. You will lose the protection offered by Fiendslayer and Crusader but I don't think we will be seeing destroy effects from Abrupt Decay and the like with those new delve cards still around. So having bigger bodies may just be the more preferable choice.
Deft Duelist is interesting, obviously can't be a target for your own activated abilities but still works with anthems and BtE. If you give him a try let us know how it works out! Maybe it would be good in an aggro list with Thalia?
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Your sideboard is pretty ambitious, I don't think you will find the answers you need with what you're using. Those Paths should be a mandatory 4-of in your mainboard.
Also, since you have all the right conditions, you could try running 4x Suppression Field in your main to hose just about every deck in modern.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
3 Brave the Elements
3 Path to Exile
2 Steelshaper's Gift
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Treasure Cruise
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
5 Plains
I also found another card from Shards of Alara I will be testing: Hindering Light. It's not as good as Brave the Elements for saving creatures, but it also can be used on myself or non-creature permanents, and it replaces itself when I cast it. I'm thinking of trying out 3 copies to see how it fares, then either cut to 2 or up to 4.
Magicman657, what's your opinion on Resto in a knights list? I'm using two Elspeth in mine and I might switch them out for 1 Resto and 1 Linvala.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Here is the deck I played against him last night (he won BTW, 2-1 I believe.) It's about what I take to Modern FNM each week. The best result I ever posted was the first week I showed (I went 3-1).
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains
Creatures
2x Fiendslayer Paladin
4x Knight Exemplar
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
3x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Mirran Crusader
4x Paladin en-Vec
3x Student of Warfare
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Brave the Elements
4x Path to Exile
Artifact
4x AEther Vial
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
Planeswalker
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Enchantment
3x Light from Within
2x Celestial Purge
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Kor Firewalker
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Disenchant
1x Wrath of God
I do want to plug Chalice of the Void. It is a brutal sideboard card. It can-by itself-hose entire decks. Usually, we want to drop it for X=1, and that leads to very awkward side-boarding with regards to our own spells and can leave you in a chalice or bust mode (I'm still figuring out the balance). I learned of it over in the GW Hatebears thread (again, can't post a link to the specific post, but it's page 53, post 1321, and there's a link from the main post, sideboard section). Then break down common decks and what to set it at. It can break Infect and Boggles (which I often have trouble with). It obliterates Jeskai Ascendancy (not that big a deal though) and really, really helps against Burn and UR Delver. (I do miss Suppression Field though.)
I think Horizon Canopy is a good choice. I often have problems flooding out or getting mana screwed. I might go to 21 lands and use the horizon canopies to (hopefully) keep from flooding.
Other random thoughts from a few months of FNM (keep in mind that my local meta is very heavily skewed towards UR. I have literally never played a Jund deck. Pod is the closest I've seen).
*UWR Control is a terrible matchup. I've only won one match against them, ever. It seems to come down to sticking a pro-red dude and trying to keep it from dying to Path, Snapcaster (poor Kor Firewalker), or Celestial Colonade).
*I have seriously considered mainboarding Rest in Peace, especially recently. Shutting down snap-caster and Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time might be worth it.
*Without Suppression Field, Twin is really hard. On MTGO, and I saw 3 Paths and 1 Celestial Purge and he still went off before I could kill him.
*I do not have a mana curve; I have a mana camel. I'm working on it, but the 3-drop knights are the best knights.
*Running the math, 60 vs. 61/62 cards isn't that big a deal (<0.9% change in seeing a card, or 1-in-100 games-at least as a rough estimate), so I don't worry too much for FNM. If I were going to a tournament, I'd probably buckle down and cut something.
*I'm thinking of changing how I sideboard. Right now there are too many things I want 4-of and NEED in the opening hand. Maybe try to broaden out and diversify (and cram Grafdigger's Cage/Rest in Peace back in).
*Also, I think a 5th general removal spell might be good. Dismember is probably too painful for a heavy burn meta, but I've been thinking about Celestial Flare. It's hilarious if nothing else.
Basically, I always have too many things I want in the deck. You always have cards that are perfect for your situation (the 3-drops with protection usually), but it comes down to if you draw the correct one at the right time. I'm working on balancing the creatures (mainly the curve and the 3 drops) with the late-game (Swords, Light, Elspeth) and with the control (RiP, etc).
Cheers,
Zydermann
I' be worried about running such a heavy curve. I realize that the protection creatures are your best bet, but have you given any thought to just sticking with one and putting the other in the board? You mentioned jund was nearly non existent (except for pod) so maybe mirran crusader goes in the board for that reason?
Are the swords really worth it? I do like them, but I would think that even if you only draw a couple of knights out, light from within just seems stronger, which would make suppression field (and by extension, rest in peace) a much stronger maindeck card.
If your meta is so heavily in blue, then maybe you should consider a sideboarded green card, specifically choke? Resolving that should just about ruin their day. It wouldn't even take much, since you already have 4 horizon canopy main.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
If Silver Knight was legal in Modern, that would definitely give the Knights archetype a boost against UR decks.
2 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deft Duelist
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Knight Exemplar
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Meddling Mage
4 Brave the Elements
4 Aether Vial
2 Hindering Light
The single copies of Flooded Strand and Windswept Heath are the only ones I own. I'm thinking of trying out Kira, Great Glass-Spinner if I can trade for a copy. I'm also going to try and get more Meddling Mages.
I'm not certain I would switch even if Silver became legal. Knight of Meadowgrain and Knight of the Holy Nimbus are pretty good against burn.
A burn player pretty much has to use a burn spell on Meadowgrain which is one not going to the dome. Silver doesn't put up enough of a clock to consider that switch.
They also have real difficulty removing Nimbus. Silver would obviously be better against burn but Nimbus is better in other match-ups.
There's no question, real protection is good and protection from R is probably most relevant right now. But Meadowgrain and Fiendslayer Paladin main-deck seem pretty effective in the match-up.
I do run 11 two-drops so Silver could contend with White Shield Crusader for the last three slots but I'm not convinced Silver would win out there either. Silver would definitely take some side-board slots from Paladin en-Vec. I'd actually like that a bunch.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
My only concern with Fiendslayer Paladin is that he doesn't have full protection. I'm am assuming Burn-based decks don't pack Pyroclasm and its ilk. I also thought that Knight of the Holy Nimbus needed to be backed up by Suppression Field to be worthwhile.
Burn decks often have Volcanic Fallout in the side-board, Anger of the Gods less often. Still, life-gain seems better than protection.
Nimbus does not shine in the grindy games but he's a beast early and what do you want from a two-drop? Still, I seem to be the only one running him so I'm probably wrong. I'm still waiting for the day I get to play Day of Judgment with Nimbus in play.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I think it would be a tempo loss for me if I cast or vial Fiendslayer Paladin, only to have Volcanic Fallout played soon after. The life gain wouldn't do anything in this scenario.
I don't play tournaments, so I'm not sure how often that would come up.
The general consensus from prior discussions is that Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is usable and dodges Lightning Bolt, but since it costs 3 mana, it competes with other Knights at the same CMC. If you have room for it, you can try to use it.
Wilt-Leaf Liege is 4 CMC, and depending on your deck build, it may not make the cut. Some builds don't go above 3 CMC, while others think Hero of Bladehold and Elspeth, Knight-Errant are better choices at 4 CMC. However, if you think your meta has discard, particularly Liliana of the Veil, then Wilt-Leaf Liege may be worth including.
Alas, I digress. The decklist I am giving is a list that hopefully many beginning and seasoned players would gravitate around. Is it perfect? Far from it, but that statement goes for most, if not all decks. Please note, this post and my decklist will be extensive. So, if you want the explanation of card choices, see the bottom hafl.
Introduction and Deck-list
I won't lie. I love Knights. Beyond Magic the gathering, there is a sense of wonder. There are chivalrous and most of time, willing to do the right thing. That said, to build a competitive knights deck was a daunting challenge. That said, the first thing was that I needed to change my mindset on approaching the deck. Being biased towards this concept, the goal of creating a "knights" deck would be very limiting. The idea had the potential to blind me and possibly make me overlook or completely ignore card choices. So my thinking towards this concept was simple. Don't build a Knight's deck. Build a good white weenie deck.
This seems very odd, but allow me to explain. Aggro as well all know are decks who utilize creatures to beat down opponents. With White weenie, one aims to cast, cheap, effective creatures to accomplish the above tasks. When someone has that mindset, the choices of what cards to use becomes much easier.
Without further ado, here is my list:
Creatures(28)
one CMC(4)
4x Student of Warfare
Two CMC(12)
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4x Leonin Skyhunter
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
Three CMC(8)
4x Knight Exemplar
4x Wilt Leaf Cavalier
Four CMC(5)
3x Wilt Leaf Liege
2x Kinsbaile Cavalier.
Artifacts(4)
4x Aether Vial
Instants (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Brave the Elements
Lands (20)
3x Cavern of Souls
2x Windbrisk Heights
2x Tectonic Edge
X14 Plains
Sideboard (15)
Creatures(7)
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thrabern
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Katak, War's Wage
Enchantments
2x Leyline of Sancity
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Rest in Peace
Artifacts(2)
2x Torpor Orb
Card choices and explanations: I shall go over all of the card choices. Note some explanations will be more detailed than others. This is due to familarity and I am assuming those who are reading this post have the necessary context.
Creatures
1) Student of Warfare: There is very little explanation needed. While no figure of destiny, the fact it levels to become a 3/3 with first strike is immense. First strike is one of those abilities most players don't take into account. The 4/4 with double strike is nice. Especially, when your board is sweeped, this can make all excess mana you have go to good use.
2) Knight of the White Orchid: A 2/2 with first strike is really good. But the fact this card searches for land(untapped) is really good. Assuming you haven't played a land for turn, this card can single handily double your mana base. And considering the cheap CMC of this deck(2.05 AVG, if anyone was curious), this card is quite useful. This card can be combined with Aether Vial. How? Imagine the scene. You have a vial on two, and you cast an orchid normally. With a second Orchid in hand, you vial it in. Given it's ability checks if the opponent controls more land, you can search up TWO plains and put them on the field.
3) Leonin Skyhunter: Not much to say about this choice. A 2/2 with flying is a solid beater. Evasion is always useful, especially in Modern. Can block flying threats like Celestial Colonade, or that annoying Signal Pest for Affinity. As for why I run four instead of Meadwowgrain that is simple preference. Feel free to change the number, if you so choose.
4) Knight of Meadowgrain: This card is quite powerful. A 2/2 with first strike and lifelink is solid. Gaining extra life is very useful, especially against other aggro decks. This card is also useful for baiting a removal spell, as the opponent will have to deal with other threats. Quite powerful, when combined with Aether Vial as a blocker.
5) Knight Exemplar: There are many things I need to say about this card. Although very powerful, it is in my view very overrated. Let's start with it's positives. Having first strike is very useful, even though a 2/2 for 3 CMC. But what makes Exemplar powerful is her 1+/+1 and indestructibility. This single effect trounces on most other aggro decks. Knowing you can block most threats(without trample) and swing in, without fear of creatures dying is always an added plus. This is especially the case with double exemplar on the field. That said, the negative of this card is plenty. From sacrificing to negative counters and exiling, there are a plethora of ways to deal with this card. Most likely your opponent will be gunning for this card. If it costs more resources to protect this card, just let them die.
This deck was designed to operate with OR WITHOUT exemplar.
6) Wilt Leaf Cavlier: My favorite card in the entire deck and the bread and butter beater. To give some background, I originally ran Honor of the Pure, along with Mirran Crusader. While I enjoyed this build, Honor was too slow and Crusader, while powerful is too vulnerable to simple removal, like lightning bolt. Ironically, it was thanks to a close friend that I found this card. For starters, this card is a 3/4. For experienced players, 4 toughness is the magic number, in that it dodges lightning bolt.
Having a creature dodge bolt is always a plus. But it's second ability vigilance is even more relevant. Being able to swing in for at least 3 damage minimum and be a blocker is very useful against many threats. All in all, this card is my favorite and will continue to remain a favorite.
7) Wilt Leaf Liege: This is another card I shall spend time discussing. Running another lord in knights seems ludicrous. While Knights doesn't have many lord choices, unlike Merfolk, it is possible. As a 4/4 Liege is already powerful. But his buff ability makes this deck an absolute nightmare(get it, 'nightmare'. I know, corny). When considering Cavalier, having a 5/6 makes this deck even more of a hassle to deal with. And finally, liege's second ability is very useful. The fact he is set onto the battlefield via discard is really annoying. This is especially the case against the Junk, or Rock player who Liliana it out of hand.
8) Kinsbaile Cavalier: A very good surprise card. Double strike is especially powerful, for offensive and defensive purposes. The fact Kinsbaile itself has double strike is already powerful. When combined with Aether Vial, this card is a great finisher.
Artifacts and instants
1) Aether Vial: This card is a key cornerstone of our deck. Akin to Mono white hatebears( Death and Taxes) and Merfolk, there is a reason why this card is utilized. Flashing creatures in for blockers or end of turn is quite useful. The mana acceleration behind this card is absolutely nuts, as it leaves mana open to cast other creatures or spells.
2) Brave the Elements: The versatility behind this card is second to none. This card can be used offensively to alpha strike opponents or defensively against spot removal, or blocking. This card can really catch most opponents off guard and remains my favorite noncreature spell. This card is wonderful against pyroclasm and Anger, as protection from red prevents damage.
3) Path to Exile: There is very little I can say about this. In my view, this is the best removal spell in modern. It is no swords to plowshares, but it will get the job done at removing most threats.
Land
1) Cavern of Souls: This is a tribal deck. Given control and combo is the hardest matchup, having creatures coming in without being countered is really nice. The card also fixes out mana, color wise, so as to cast plenty of color intensive spells.
2) Windbrisk Heights: This card is absolutely nuts. While it is a tap land, the fact one can card a card, without playing it's converted mana cost is quite powerful, like Brave the elements for instance. Given the clause states that creatures need to have attacked, you can cast the cards during second main phase.
2) Tectonic Edge: A useful card. It can deal with man lands, as well as destroying key mana bases, such as tron.
Sideboard:
1) Thalia: This card is quite powerful. Although no knight, Thalia's ability makes playing control a living nightmare, along with storm. Her first strike is useful, and given opponents will need to waste removal to get rid of her is critical.
2) Aven Mindcensor: This card is ridiculous on its own. Flash is very useful, but preventing searches can slow down a ton of decks, like Scapeshift, Pod and Tron. Evasion is always useful and given brave the elements can protect this card, it is quite useful.
3) Katak: If Affinity had a kyrptonite, Kataki would be this card. Interestingly enough, Wizards printed this card in response to Affinity. Given the archtype broke standard, I am not surprise. When combined with Aether vial, this card becomes a nasty surprise for Robots, and puts the opponent on the defensive. Most of time the enemy will pray for a galvanic Blast or Whipflare to deal with this enemy.
4) Leyline of Sancity: Our weakest matchup is combo and Affinity. For the former, Leyline provides us with an out against the threat. It also pulls its weight against mill effects and the Rock and Junk with their discard effects.
5) Rest in peace: This card shuts down any graveyard based deck. It is very useful against pod, especially Merlira Pod, as they need the graveyard for their combo to be pulled out.
6) Ghostly Prison: This card helps stymie other aggro decks, like Zoo. But more important, this card halts Splinter Twin, as they cannot fully combo out and kill us.
7) Torpor Orb: This card is again for Splinter Twin, but is also reserved for pod, as Pod tends to run plenty of enter the battlefield effects. Though, this card does hurt Orchid.
Conclusion: This decklist should be taken with a grain of salt,even though I have explained my reasons. One of the great things about this game is experimentation. Continue to innovate and try out new things. It is through trial and error that one can produce something wonderful. This deck took three years to properly test and refine. And even then, I have some brand new ideas for said decklist.
Take care.
I wouldn't say magic players look down on tribal in general. Merfolk is one of the strongest decks out there. Fairies is close behind.
Hatebears and zoo are almost tribal in their consistency. Lots of cats, beasts, soldiers and clerics. Those decks are well-respected and well known. Knights is just a modified version that plays more of a midrange game. You appear to have captured this essence in your card rationale.
Based on what you said, it seems like you must have had a run in with someone in a game or someone criticized knights tribal in general. I appreciate the attempt to wax philosophic, but I would disagree in Knights tribal being regarded as a beginner deck and looked down upon. I think it's quite the opposite: knights take a lot of skill to play competitively in a blazing fast meta with an overabundance of well-costed spells and should-be-banned cards. This is especially the case in modern, where Snapcaster Mage, Treasure Cruise, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Scapeshift, Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, and others are allowed to exist. You are using a comparatively less expensive deck in a meta of power cards that prey on fair play itself. What's important is that because we aren't at the top, we can adapt to beat them. And believe me, it's very satisfying to destroy a $600 deck in two rounds. Not to mention everyone who watches your game will be cheering for you, the underdog.
In almost all of my games people either didn't say anything or complimented the deck and applauded me for using something less mainstream. Competitive players know about knight tribal. After I lost to this one guy at modern tournament at my LGS (he was a pro player that has gone to national qualifiers in Canada) I overheard him chatting with his buddy about the match, his familiarity with knight tribal and the tough game he faced. I played another guy during that tourney who ran a retrace-loam list and had never played against knights before. He was sweating buckets and very narrowly beat me after topdecking three goyfs. Lots of compliments on the tribe there too (and those were among my first serious games, before the deck got an overhaul).
I have only had one experience with some jerk, and that was on MTGO. It was a Jund player who probably felt he shouldn't have to toil playing against some peasant deck with his full set of Bob, Lilianna, Goyf, fetches, etc. After I beat him down with a Skyhunter he took about a minute to stare at the battlefield, then said "I can't believe I lost to this *****" and quit. I laughed. I cried. I took a picture of the chat with my phone.
So don't underestimate what knight tribal is capable of! I have had many compliments on its consistency once Light from Within saw play and opponents realized there was nothing they could do. One guy said "knights are still smashing face and seem strong as ever". We would probably disagree on this forum (our tribe hasn't gotten a lot of love from Wizards in quite a while) but that doesn't mean the deck isn't viable.
When I get time this December, maybe in January too, i'm going to enter some of the MTGO Modern Daily tournaments. I'll make it my goal to get this thread re-pinned on MTG Salvation's Modern decklist forum. Anyways, let's take a look at your deck. I put it in proper formatting.
It seems you have a good understanding of the function of each card in the deck. You have rounded out the curve and it looks like a solid aggro list. You have also identified the possibility of stacking Knight of the White Orchid's ability twice by playing one normally and vialing one in simultaneously (getting a 2-for-1 land deal). Unfortunately, I don't believe this would work. This ain't no fee simple. The ability will check to see if you have less land than an opponent, and after your first stack trigger resolves the second one will see that you both have the same amount of land and will fizzle. I could be wrong! Maybe someone here can confirm for me.
What distinguishes your deck from most of the lists posted here is your choice to run a full set of Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, 3x Wilt-Leaf Liege and 2x Kinsbaile Cavalier. I think the Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers is a viable card and a good choice. Same goes for Liege (his anthem is relevant in your deck given your high creature count). [Insert sales pitch for Light from Within and how good it is with the elf knights]. Kinsbaile is a bit of a risky play, more like a bomb that you want to play then swing for the win. Vialing him in to double the attack power of some unblocked creatures is a great finisher. Just don't expect him to stick around on the board for too long with that juicy 4cmc cost and 2 toughness. Windbrisk Heights seems possible in your deck, again given your high creature count and low average CMC cost. Let us know how it works!
You noted in your conclusion that it takes time and lots of trial and error for a knight deck to evolve. It took my knight deck a similar amount of time (about 4 years) to get to where it is. Only thing I would add is it's not just trial and error; it's also trial by fire. [pun intended]
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
3x Dryad Militant
2x Hero of Bladehold
4x Knight Exemplar
3x Knight of Meadowgrain
2x Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2x Knight of the White Orchid
3x Mirran Crusader
3x Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Light from Within
2x Shield of the Oversoul
4x Suppression Field
Instant (6)
2x Brave the Elements
4x Path to Exile
4x Cavern of Souls
18x Plains
Instead of building around Vial, Im building around Suppression Field, so PW and Student are not allowed and now Knight of the Holy Nimbus is a very good choice. I personally prefer to run Shield of the Oversoul than the flying cat. Any thoughts?