Will a version of this w/o aether vial be uplayable? Im new and looking for some kind of budget deck (and knights look awesome). Dont have the 100 bucks for a playset of vials.
If the deck is playable without vial, what changes need to be made around the fact that im not running vial?
First of all, Vials aren't really that expensive. You could get a Playset for $60 easy, if that.
The deck is playable, but not as good. You should have a one-drop to replace it, the choice of which will depend on what colors you're running. Steelshaper's gift could be a neat choice if you're running an equipment package, and you can pick up a playset of those for like $12. You could also try running an extra removal spell, like oust.
The one problem with the lack of aether vial is, it's much easier to counter your knights. However, Aether Vial isn't absolutely necessary. If you do get Vials, you want a playset. They're bad topdecks, but you want one in your opening hand as often as possible.
What colors are you running? That would help facilitate better suggestions.
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Maybe i should look elsewhere but on tcgplayer.com the cheapest vials are around 24ish bux. Maybe i need to be less comfortable when searching but its pretty hard to find a credible provider that has all the cards you want, ships internationally and doesnt take 50$ for the shipping.
Thx for answering the question and as i understand it any version of the deck will just be plain better with the vials which kind of repels me from the aidea of a "vialless version" a little.
I was actually looking at the equipment version with puresteel but me not being able to afford vials combined with the banning of sfm resulted in a less powerful deck. This makes me feel like i was playing with a crippled version of the "real thing" which doesnt really compell me. I guess im just a timmy who's sad his creatures arent as stompy as they could be.
The lists that i have been considering have been white but id be open to gw aswell.
Another reason i liked this deck is because i cant stand the jund and junk decks (there is something that i hate about throwing the strongest creatures in a pile and call it a deck, its so thematically displeasing) but like the midrange style.
Yup, to be honest I can't imagine playing without Aether Vial, since I have to put out creatures that are 2cc and 3cc every turn while my opponents shoot 1cc removal spells at it every EOT! That's how efficient creature removal spells are. If you don't play Vial it is very easy to make space for 4x Honor of the Pure or even a few Light from Within.
Spellskite is a good addition if you are thinking of playing Puresteel Knights. I like the card very much but it's expensive now :-/.
Allrightie. Also, i looked up the price of vial and i stand corrected, its 12-18$ so either the price has fluctuated like crazy in 3ish days or im crazy (my vote is on the former :p)
This means that maybe they arent so out of range for me but spellskites indeed look super cool.
And i have a last question: being the noob i am i dont really see which archtypes use vials and why. Merfolk is the only other one i know of but they want to keep mana open for counterspells so they vial in their guys at EoT (if im not mistaken) and thats their primary reason for doing it. Knights dont usually have counterspells so why are they in more need of vial than other creature based decks? I mean knights arent more suspectable to removal than lets say jund midrange, are they? And if so, why?
Thank you for taking time to answer all my questions and sorry to be of inconveniance ^^*
You can use it to sneak in Exemplars, or blockerss, or put a creature into play at the end of your opponent's turn so they can attack during yours.
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Allrightie. Also, i looked up the price of vial and i stand corrected, its 12-18$ so either the price has fluctuated like crazy in 3ish days or im crazy (my vote is on the former :p)
This means that maybe they arent so out of range for me but spellskites indeed look super cool.
And i have a last question: being the noob i am i dont really see which archtypes use vials and why. Merfolk is the only other one i know of but they want to keep mana open for counterspells so they vial in their guys at EoT (if im not mistaken) and thats their primary reason for doing it. Knights dont usually have counterspells so why are they in more need of vial than other creature based decks? I mean knights arent more suspectable to removal than lets say jund midrange, are they? And if so, why?
Thank you for taking time to answer all my questions and sorry to be of inconveniance ^^*
Pretty much as pointed out and summarized by Sliver Swarm Queen, Aether Vial also brings with it the element of surprise and may forces your opponent to play differently, thus affecting their own game plan adversely as well.
for a GW Knight Deck, would Garruk Wildspeaker fit in as a plainswalker and use his 2nd ability for giving knights with trample at maybe 5th or 6th turn alpha strike? i mean by that time maybe you can have 3-4 knights
for a GW Knight Deck, would Garruk Wildspeaker fit in as a plainswalker and use his 2nd ability for giving knights with trample at maybe 5th or 6th turn alpha strike? i mean by that time maybe you can have 3-4 knights
Unfortunately I think it is pretty tough to get Garruk Wildspeaker to fit in there. Firstly the GG might be difficult to attain with a small G splash, while more importantly it does not improve matchups Tribal Knights are traditionally weak against, such as decks with flyers or combo.
Allrightie. Also, i looked up the price of vial and i stand corrected, its 12-18$ so either the price has fluctuated like crazy in 3ish days or im crazy (my vote is on the former :p)
This means that maybe they arent so out of range for me but spellskites indeed look super cool.
And i have a last question: being the noob i am i dont really see which archtypes use vials and why. Merfolk is the only other one i know of but they want to keep mana open for counterspells so they vial in their guys at EoT (if im not mistaken) and thats their primary reason for doing it. Knights dont usually have counterspells so why are they in more need of vial than other creature based decks? I mean knights arent more suspectable to removal than lets say jund midrange, are they? And if so, why?
Thank you for taking time to answer all my questions and sorry to be of inconveniance ^^*
Firstly, I'd advocate that just because you don't have Vials, doesn't mean that you can't have a good Knight Deck. It's true that Vial is a must-have in Merfolk because of the need to cast counterspells, but I'm in the camp that believes that Vial isn't Absolutely necessary in order to win. Earlier in this thread, there was a good link and explaination of the pros and cons of using Aether Vial which would be worth looking at in your case. Many people only look at the best possible senario of going first and playing a Vial, but the reality is that you're never guaranteed to start with one, and topdecking one turn 6+ is rarely good since white has almost no way to generate card advantage to make up for bad draws.
Take Merfolk for example. Say they go first and play a vial. If we play a vial on our 1st turn, we will always be a turn behind on putting counters on our vial and getting our creatures out. If we started with a Student of Warfare on our turn 1, it will take the Merfolk deck about 3 additional turns to put out enough lords to effectively trade with that single Student after we level it up twice on our 2nd turn. If we use Honor of the Pure alongside Exemplar, we can often bait the counterspell on Honor the turn before Exemplar comes into play (and let's face it, Merfolk generally doesn't have enough counters to counter things every turn).
The point I'm trying to make is that while Vial is a good card in some matchups, I don't think that Knights are unplayable without it. It shines in the control matchup, but a Cavern of Souls is another answer if you're really worried about counterspells. Due to white's general lack of CA, I'd say that Vial may not be right for all players that are new to Knights. A few of my friends (who play Merfolk with Vial) still don't know how to use it effectively imo, and that hurts them more than helps.
Now all of this speculation is assuming a few things, one of which is that you're playing mono-white Knights. If you're playing more than one color, then yes, Vial will help smooth out your deck and make it more consistent. I play mono-white, and have never felt at a disadvantage without it. You do play differently that way, and there may be certain times where you hold off on playing a creature in order to keep removal open, but those are all just decisions that need to be made on a game-to-game basis.
tl;dr - Knights are fun! Play them even without Aether Vial!
I have a Green-White configuration in my signature that doesn't use Aether Vial.
Some of us debated Aether Vial usage very early in this thread. If you want to use Aether Vial, most of us agreed that you have to run 4 for the highest probability of drawing it on turn 1 or 2. If you don't draw it on turn 1 or 2, it effectively becomes a dead draw, since you won't have enough turns for it to collect charge counters. Running less than 4 just didn't make much sense from a probability standpoint.
Aether Vial is probably more important in Legacy, where counterspells are prevalent, but in Modern, it does not seem as vital.
Firstly, I'd advocate that just because you don't have Vials, doesn't mean that you can't have a good Knight Deck. It's true that Vial is a must-have in Merfolk because of the need to cast counterspells, but I'm in the camp that believes that Vial isn't Absolutely necessary in order to win. Earlier in this thread, there was a good link and explaination of the pros and cons of using Aether Vial which would be worth looking at in your case. Many people only look at the best possible senario of going first and playing a Vial, but the reality is that you're never guaranteed to start with one, and topdecking one turn 6+ is rarely good since white has almost no way to generate card advantage to make up for bad draws.
Take Merfolk for example. Say they go first and play a vial. If we play a vial on our 1st turn, we will always be a turn behind on putting counters on our vial and getting our creatures out. If we started with a Student of Warfare on our turn 1, it will take the Merfolk deck about 3 additional turns to put out enough lords to effectively trade with that single Student after we level it up twice on our 2nd turn. If we use Honor of the Pure alongside Exemplar, we can often bait the counterspell on Honor the turn before Exemplar comes into play (and let's face it, Merfolk generally doesn't have enough counters to counter things every turn).
The point I'm trying to make is that while Vial is a good card in some matchups, I don't think that Knights are unplayable without it. It shines in the control matchup, but a Cavern of Souls is another answer if you're really worried about counterspells. Due to white's general lack of CA, I'd say that Vial may not be right for all players that are new to Knights. A few of my friends (who play Merfolk with Vial) still don't know how to use it effectively imo, and that hurts them more than helps.
Now all of this speculation is assuming a few things, one of which is that you're playing mono-white Knights. If you're playing more than one color, then yes, Vial will help smooth out your deck and make it more consistent. I play mono-white, and have never felt at a disadvantage without it. You do play differently that way, and there may be certain times where you hold off on playing a creature in order to keep removal open, but those are all just decisions that need to be made on a game-to-game basis.
tl;dr - Knights are fun! Play them even without Aether Vial!
Btw, is there a reason for not even mentioning fiendslayer paladin ? i mean i'm not even claiming to be moderately good at this game but he seem to be at least a good sideboard option, am i wrong? ^^"
*EDIT* i should learn to read, sorry.
*EDIT 2* may i instead ask why were not running caverns in the mono white vials deck? afraid of non-basic hate? i get that we can get creatures uncounterable with vial but what if we don't draw it? it would be nice to still have uncounterable creatures.
also: is elspeth as essential as aether vial or could there be another drop on the curve that might do her job?
Regarding your question on Caverns, I think to an extent, counterspells are not that prevalent in modern compared to in Legacy, maybe because of a lack of non-conditional counters. One reason I could think of where Caverns doesn't help is in leveling up Student of Warfare. Also, Caverns may have Mutavault as a competitor for the same slots - both cannot be use to cast Path to Exile for example.
Btw, is there a reason for not even mentioning fiendslayer paladin ? i mean i'm not even claiming to be moderately good at this game but he seem to be at least a good sideboard option, am i wrong? ^^"
*EDIT* i should learn to read, sorry.
*EDIT 2* may i instead ask why were not running caverns in the mono white vials deck? afraid of non-basic hate? i get that we can get creatures uncounterable with vial but what if we don't draw it? it would be nice to still have uncounterable creatures.
also: is elspeth as essential as aether vial or could there be another drop on the curve that might do her job?
IMHO, Elspeth is how we recover best after a boardwipe or to get that last bit of damage over the top of some blockers etc. However some in this thread like to use Hero of Bladehold if they also use multiple Honor of the Pures. A more budget card in the 4-drop spot could be Kinsbaile Cavalier or Angelic Destiny.
Just regarding the Aether Vial discussion, I don't think any of us doubt its effectiveness. It is absolutely a card you want to see in your opening hand, and if you can compliment it with a suite of 2-3 cmc creatures you are going to be applying some major pressure against your opponent. Combat tricks with Knight Exemplar, Silverblade Paladin and colour prot? Yes please. It also gives you open mana to spend on other things, like playing a Sword of X and Y, Elspeth or mega-honor of the pure Light from Within. The con that we face is that it's a horrible topdeck draw, in a deck that doesn't have any card draw other than maybe Sword of Fire and Ice and Horizon Canopy. It could mean the difference between life and death when you draw this on Turn 3+ instead of a land, Path or knight.
Thus, running Aether Vial is a bit of a gamble, and essentially a deal with the devil. When it works, it's great. Some games it may not even show up at all. But when it doesn't work, you have likely just cost yourself a turn for card draw. This is affordable in junk hatebears, D+T, merfolk, and other lists that destroy land and tax opponents for attrition, or have card draw to compensate, but until wizards prints an efficiently-costed knight that lets us draw cards there isn't much to negate this (not counting Court Hussar and Sky Hussar). It's up to you to decide whether you feel its pros can outweigh the cons.
Edit: obviously I forgot to mention Puresteel Paladin, but you can't just dump him in a regular knights list.
And I think that Nabbydian makes a very good point. The WW demand of knights only affords us so many nonbasic land options. And IMO Cavern of Souls and Mutavault (+ Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter) both compete for that spot. You can reduce redundancy and increase effectiveness of running the cavern with other non-basic lands by keeping a creature count above 24 or so, but in a snap decision that involves cavern or mutavault I would probably have to go with cavern every time. Especially if you have chosen to not run Aether Vial in your deck.
For the knight aggro or midrange-aggro strategy, we need to ensure that our creatures are hitting the field each time. They do more to make sure they stay there with their strong typing + combat efficiency than many other creatures in their category, but we can't win if we have no answers to countering them while they are still spells.
Wilt-Leaf Liege - use if you are running G/W and/or expect to face Liliana of the Veil often. Which is very likely. Also great versus Raven's Crime and Smallpox. I don't think this should go any further than sideboard material in a non G/W list.
Kinsbaile Cavalier - the only other knight lord, probably best used in a deck with HoTP or LfW. He must also be used in a deck that uses a lot of creatures, min. 24, to maximize the effectiveness of his ability. You should run him if you can count on usually having 2-3 non-double strike knights already in play.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - very versatile, probably the easiest 4-drop to just fit in despite your strategy, although this does not make her an auto-include. Probably best in a deck that uses 24 or less creatures (instead using slots for more control options) and does not use Honor of the Pure.
Light from Within - Great in a mono-white deck that uses lots of WW cards, including knight of meadowgrain and leonin-relic warder. Puts everything out of bolt range (Lightning Bolt is, after all, the most common spell played in modern) and works wonders for swinging the battlefield in your favour. The tradeoff is that this card can be very circumstantial, where the +2/+2 only helps one creature and you wish for a temporary +3/+3 and flying instead. Run with lots of WW creatures.
Heliod, God of the Sun - Obviously has great synergy, and is only under consideration because he is likely to hit the field as a 5/6 indestructible most of the time. His vigilance is a great plus (knights desperately need vigilance) and helps us poke our opponents with confidence. Pooping out tokens is a great mana sink for games that reach a deadlock, or if we are forced into topdecking.
Angelic Destiny - Use as a cheaper alternative to Elspeth. Not suited for a competitive environment. I used to run this, but I found it to be more flash than substance. As an enchantment it obviously suffers the 2 for 1 curse, but if you can get it on your creature then it's game over. No creature is going to stop your 6/6 double-striking Mirran Crusader. If an opponent is going to shoot your creature with a killspell, they would do it before the enchant attaches, which makes the semi-Rancor 'return to hand' clause mostly null and void. This card is a gamble and is very vulnerable to sacrifice, but you can increase your attach odds by running lots of pro-colour creatures. This is also something you side out immediately if you are up against bounce or exile removal.
Elspeth, Cavalier and Light can give your creatures an immediate and noteworthy effect when they come into play.
Any others that i'm missing?
Five drops:
Swords of X and Y usually count as 5 drops, IMO. We want to ensure we have emptied our hand of creatures before playing one, and by that point we may have 5 lands. If not we should be down to utility spells and/or topdecking. Spending two turns to get a sword online when we could be playing creatures doesn't seem worthwhile, unless a strike will be critical to hurting our opponent's tempo.
Light from Within - Great in a mono-white deck that uses lots of WW cards, including knight of meadowgrain and leonin-relic warder. Puts everything out of bolt range (Lightning Bolt is, after all, the most common spell played in modern) and works wonders for swinging the battlefield in your favour. The tradeoff is that this card can be very circumstantial, where the +2/+2 only helps one creature and you wish for a temporary +3/+3 and flying instead. Run with lots of WW creatures.
I had forgot this card was around, but it is very very good for knights. Its like two honor the pure in one card. It comes done two turns later, but its got a much bigger impact.
I'm always worried that knights are trying to play fair in a format where everyone else isn't. But Light from Within is well worth a look especially with almost all of our playable cards having WW in the mana cost.
I had forgot this card was around, but it is very very good for knights. Its like two honor the pure in one card. It comes done two turns later, but its got a much bigger impact.
I'm always worried that knights are trying to play fair in a format where everyone else isn't. But Light from Within is well worth a look especially with almost all of our playable cards having WW in the mana cost.
Pretty much. Knights is mostly a "fair deck" which short of combat tricks via Aether Vial we don't really have anything degenerate going for them. Heck even Merfolk had a Master of Waves spawning elemental tokens and Pro-Red to boot. Still, Knights tribal's strong point is the protection from colors, and there are more anthem spells such as Honor of the Pure, Glorious Anthem, Light from Within (to mention a few) in white, which is Knights traditional color.
I've now moved away from an Aether Vial build primarily because of the lack of card draw in a G/W build (that I currently have at least) and have found that not top decking the dead artifact later in the game has worked out fantastically. I'll post a decklist in the coming days when I have the deck with me, but I was wondering how many people have tried the deck with no vial.
The reason why I like it is because I typically start out faster than people and burn out once they establish board presence. This way there are less dead topdecks and I've liked it.
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I've now moved away from an Aether Vial build primarily because of the lack of card draw in a G/W build (that I currently have at least) and have found that not top decking the dead artifact later in the game has worked out fantastically. I'll post a decklist in the coming days when I have the deck with me, but I was wondering how many people have tried the deck with no vial.
The reason why I like it is because I typically start out faster than people and burn out once they establish board presence. This way there are less dead topdecks and I've liked it.
I have a G/W build in my signature that does not use Aether Vial. I used to use Wall of Omens. It comes and goes.
how about door of destinies as an anthem like pump? i'm still thinking nykthos would be viable in a tribal knight deck and it pumps student of warfare plus make equipping swords easier
Door of Destinies requires you to not only play it, but to play a lot of knights after it to have an appreciable effect. Adaptive Automaton is one mana cheaper, gives +1/+1 to all your other creatures, and counts as a knight himself. Coat of arms costs one mana more, but does far more for the deck than door of destinies, and isn't usually bad unless it's coming up against another tribal deck (though, the 5 mana cost makes it unusable in most scenarios.)
Nykthos would have to replace something like Mutavault, since otherwise, it'll make too many of your lands practically unusable. Even then, it can only be played in mono-white pretty much, and can easily be useless.
It could work, I'm not saying it can't, just saying why I think it may be a bad idea.
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Yup, I'm with Sliver Swarm Queen on this with regards to Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. I think Mutavault is a better choice here, and even then, I'll hate to get one of this non-W lands as one of my opening 2 lands.
So with the unbanning of Bitterblossom, what are people's thoughts on how to fight it? I know there's Qasali Pridemage for the G/W builds, but I can't think of anything for straight mono white builds.
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Qasali Pridemage only works if you're on the play, otherwise it would have shroud by the time you could do anything.
If Faeries start popping up quite a bit, then maybe the version running Vial would be the way to go for protection from counter spells. I still think that with First Strike, Lifelink, and running 4x Brave the Elements. We'll see, I've never tested the matchup.
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Why, oh why, oh why couldn't it have been a knight.
It looks like knights will be, more or less, completely neglected for the Theros set.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
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First of all, Vials aren't really that expensive. You could get a Playset for $60 easy, if that.
The deck is playable, but not as good. You should have a one-drop to replace it, the choice of which will depend on what colors you're running. Steelshaper's gift could be a neat choice if you're running an equipment package, and you can pick up a playset of those for like $12. You could also try running an extra removal spell, like oust.
The one problem with the lack of aether vial is, it's much easier to counter your knights. However, Aether Vial isn't absolutely necessary. If you do get Vials, you want a playset. They're bad topdecks, but you want one in your opening hand as often as possible.
What colors are you running? That would help facilitate better suggestions.
Yup, to be honest I can't imagine playing without Aether Vial, since I have to put out creatures that are 2cc and 3cc every turn while my opponents shoot 1cc removal spells at it every EOT! That's how efficient creature removal spells are. If you don't play Vial it is very easy to make space for 4x Honor of the Pure or even a few Light from Within.
Spellskite is a good addition if you are thinking of playing Puresteel Knights. I like the card very much but it's expensive now :-/.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
You can use it to sneak in Exemplars, or blockerss, or put a creature into play at the end of your opponent's turn so they can attack during yours.
Pretty much as pointed out and summarized by Sliver Swarm Queen, Aether Vial also brings with it the element of surprise and may forces your opponent to play differently, thus affecting their own game plan adversely as well.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Unfortunately I think it is pretty tough to get Garruk Wildspeaker to fit in there. Firstly the GG might be difficult to attain with a small G splash, while more importantly it does not improve matchups Tribal Knights are traditionally weak against, such as decks with flyers or combo.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Firstly, I'd advocate that just because you don't have Vials, doesn't mean that you can't have a good Knight Deck. It's true that Vial is a must-have in Merfolk because of the need to cast counterspells, but I'm in the camp that believes that Vial isn't Absolutely necessary in order to win. Earlier in this thread, there was a good link and explaination of the pros and cons of using Aether Vial which would be worth looking at in your case. Many people only look at the best possible senario of going first and playing a Vial, but the reality is that you're never guaranteed to start with one, and topdecking one turn 6+ is rarely good since white has almost no way to generate card advantage to make up for bad draws.
Take Merfolk for example. Say they go first and play a vial. If we play a vial on our 1st turn, we will always be a turn behind on putting counters on our vial and getting our creatures out. If we started with a Student of Warfare on our turn 1, it will take the Merfolk deck about 3 additional turns to put out enough lords to effectively trade with that single Student after we level it up twice on our 2nd turn. If we use Honor of the Pure alongside Exemplar, we can often bait the counterspell on Honor the turn before Exemplar comes into play (and let's face it, Merfolk generally doesn't have enough counters to counter things every turn).
The point I'm trying to make is that while Vial is a good card in some matchups, I don't think that Knights are unplayable without it. It shines in the control matchup, but a Cavern of Souls is another answer if you're really worried about counterspells. Due to white's general lack of CA, I'd say that Vial may not be right for all players that are new to Knights. A few of my friends (who play Merfolk with Vial) still don't know how to use it effectively imo, and that hurts them more than helps.
Now all of this speculation is assuming a few things, one of which is that you're playing mono-white Knights. If you're playing more than one color, then yes, Vial will help smooth out your deck and make it more consistent. I play mono-white, and have never felt at a disadvantage without it. You do play differently that way, and there may be certain times where you hold off on playing a creature in order to keep removal open, but those are all just decisions that need to be made on a game-to-game basis.
tl;dr - Knights are fun! Play them even without Aether Vial!
Some of us debated Aether Vial usage very early in this thread. If you want to use Aether Vial, most of us agreed that you have to run 4 for the highest probability of drawing it on turn 1 or 2. If you don't draw it on turn 1 or 2, it effectively becomes a dead draw, since you won't have enough turns for it to collect charge counters. Running less than 4 just didn't make much sense from a probability standpoint.
Aether Vial is probably more important in Legacy, where counterspells are prevalent, but in Modern, it does not seem as vital.
Regarding your question on Caverns, I think to an extent, counterspells are not that prevalent in modern compared to in Legacy, maybe because of a lack of non-conditional counters. One reason I could think of where Caverns doesn't help is in leveling up Student of Warfare. Also, Caverns may have Mutavault as a competitor for the same slots - both cannot be use to cast Path to Exile for example.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
IMHO, Elspeth is how we recover best after a boardwipe or to get that last bit of damage over the top of some blockers etc. However some in this thread like to use Hero of Bladehold if they also use multiple Honor of the Pures. A more budget card in the 4-drop spot could be Kinsbaile Cavalier or Angelic Destiny.
Very few things are essential in a Knights deck, other than land.
Elspeth, Knight Errant is used in some Knight builds, but Hero of Bladehold or even Wilt-Leaf Liege have been used as the 4-drop.
Thus, running Aether Vial is a bit of a gamble, and essentially a deal with the devil. When it works, it's great. Some games it may not even show up at all. But when it doesn't work, you have likely just cost yourself a turn for card draw. This is affordable in junk hatebears, D+T, merfolk, and other lists that destroy land and tax opponents for attrition, or have card draw to compensate, but until wizards prints an efficiently-costed knight that lets us draw cards there isn't much to negate this (not counting Court Hussar and Sky Hussar). It's up to you to decide whether you feel its pros can outweigh the cons.
Edit: obviously I forgot to mention Puresteel Paladin, but you can't just dump him in a regular knights list.
And I think that Nabbydian makes a very good point. The WW demand of knights only affords us so many nonbasic land options. And IMO Cavern of Souls and Mutavault (+ Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter) both compete for that spot. You can reduce redundancy and increase effectiveness of running the cavern with other non-basic lands by keeping a creature count above 24 or so, but in a snap decision that involves cavern or mutavault I would probably have to go with cavern every time. Especially if you have chosen to not run Aether Vial in your deck.
For the knight aggro or midrange-aggro strategy, we need to ensure that our creatures are hitting the field each time. They do more to make sure they stay there with their strong typing + combat efficiency than many other creatures in their category, but we can't win if we have no answers to countering them while they are still spells.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Slovenhjelm, these are my thoughts on 4 drops:
Hero of Bladehold - use if you are already running Honor of the Pure, and especially use if you are already running HoTP + Brave the Elements.
Wilt-Leaf Liege - use if you are running G/W and/or expect to face Liliana of the Veil often. Which is very likely. Also great versus Raven's Crime and Smallpox. I don't think this should go any further than sideboard material in a non G/W list.
Kinsbaile Cavalier - the only other knight lord, probably best used in a deck with HoTP or LfW. He must also be used in a deck that uses a lot of creatures, min. 24, to maximize the effectiveness of his ability. You should run him if you can count on usually having 2-3 non-double strike knights already in play.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - very versatile, probably the easiest 4-drop to just fit in despite your strategy, although this does not make her an auto-include. Probably best in a deck that uses 24 or less creatures (instead using slots for more control options) and does not use Honor of the Pure.
Light from Within - Great in a mono-white deck that uses lots of WW cards, including knight of meadowgrain and leonin-relic warder. Puts everything out of bolt range (Lightning Bolt is, after all, the most common spell played in modern) and works wonders for swinging the battlefield in your favour. The tradeoff is that this card can be very circumstantial, where the +2/+2 only helps one creature and you wish for a temporary +3/+3 and flying instead. Run with lots of WW creatures.
Heliod, God of the Sun - Obviously has great synergy, and is only under consideration because he is likely to hit the field as a 5/6 indestructible most of the time. His vigilance is a great plus (knights desperately need vigilance) and helps us poke our opponents with confidence. Pooping out tokens is a great mana sink for games that reach a deadlock, or if we are forced into topdecking.
Angelic Destiny - Use as a cheaper alternative to Elspeth. Not suited for a competitive environment. I used to run this, but I found it to be more flash than substance. As an enchantment it obviously suffers the 2 for 1 curse, but if you can get it on your creature then it's game over. No creature is going to stop your 6/6 double-striking Mirran Crusader. If an opponent is going to shoot your creature with a killspell, they would do it before the enchant attaches, which makes the semi-Rancor 'return to hand' clause mostly null and void. This card is a gamble and is very vulnerable to sacrifice, but you can increase your attach odds by running lots of pro-colour creatures. This is also something you side out immediately if you are up against bounce or exile removal.
Elspeth, Cavalier and Light can give your creatures an immediate and noteworthy effect when they come into play.
Any others that i'm missing?
Five drops:
Swords of X and Y usually count as 5 drops, IMO. We want to ensure we have emptied our hand of creatures before playing one, and by that point we may have 5 lands. If not we should be down to utility spells and/or topdecking. Spending two turns to get a sword online when we could be playing creatures doesn't seem worthwhile, unless a strike will be critical to hurting our opponent's tempo.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I had forgot this card was around, but it is very very good for knights. Its like two honor the pure in one card. It comes done two turns later, but its got a much bigger impact.
I'm always worried that knights are trying to play fair in a format where everyone else isn't. But Light from Within is well worth a look especially with almost all of our playable cards having WW in the mana cost.
Pretty much. Knights is mostly a "fair deck" which short of combat tricks via Aether Vial we don't really have anything degenerate going for them. Heck even Merfolk had a Master of Waves spawning elemental tokens and Pro-Red to boot. Still, Knights tribal's strong point is the protection from colors, and there are more anthem spells such as Honor of the Pure, Glorious Anthem, Light from Within (to mention a few) in white, which is Knights traditional color.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
The reason why I like it is because I typically start out faster than people and burn out once they establish board presence. This way there are less dead topdecks and I've liked it.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I have a G/W build in my signature that does not use Aether Vial. I used to use Wall of Omens. It comes and goes.
Nykthos would have to replace something like Mutavault, since otherwise, it'll make too many of your lands practically unusable. Even then, it can only be played in mono-white pretty much, and can easily be useless.
It could work, I'm not saying it can't, just saying why I think it may be a bad idea.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
If Faeries start popping up quite a bit, then maybe the version running Vial would be the way to go for protection from counter spells. I still think that with First Strike, Lifelink, and running 4x Brave the Elements. We'll see, I've never tested the matchup.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge