I'm glad that there has been a lot of discussion on simulated plays. T4 is very often the absolute, decisive turn in modern and we want to have a dominating board presence by this point (or T5 at the very latest). It's what decides why cards like Hero of Bladehold, despite being amazing, haven't seen much play in most of our decklists. In an aggro knights deck that seeks a T4, T5 or (latest) T6 win, a 4cmc card must have instantaneous game-changing effects. Wilt-Leaf Liege provides an anthem (exponentially improved in a G/W list). Kinsbaile Cavalier provides an anthem that essentially doubles all strikes from at least 2 to 4. Light from Within doubles all 2/2s into 4/4s, and Elspeth, Knight-Errant provides a temporary buff with evasion. I have actually taken a recent liking to running Angelic Destiny alongside Elspeth, and the instant T4 win-gratification it can give with more ease (especially when dropped on a pro-colour creature). The added 1 damage (or 2 with double strike) can make or break a game - especially as our opponents harm themselves with incremental damage from fetchlands and shocklands.
It's this exact reason why Aether Vial should be recognized for its amazing synergy with an aggro tribe (in securing an early T4-T5 win) but I feel that its drawbacks should not necessarily make it an auto-include for EVERY knights deck. It's easy to fantasize about perfect scenarios where we have a vial in our opening hand - which is indeed optimal - but remember there is only 4 of these in every 60 card deck. Your odds of finding one in your opening hand are just under 40%, and mulling to 6 yields you a draw chance of 35%. Drawing into your first vial on T3+ is not a welcome sight - especially when running a colour that exchanges card draw for card advantage. This is also to say nothing of the risks associated with emptying your hand quickly and being totalled by a surprise terminus, supreme verdict, jund charm, volcanic fallout//pyroclasm, rough (rough/tumble), black sun's zenith, mutilate, etc.
I'm not arguing against running the vials or saying that the cons outweigh the pros - just that we should be wary of the risks. I own a set myself and i'm not ignorant of its potential, but drawing a vial on T3 or T4 (or, god forbid, two in a row) is not necessarily what you want to see. I find that this is more forgivable in G/W or Puresteel builds that have some card draw (to negate your lost draw). The trick toolbox of vial with any knights deck provides a heavy tempo gain and a strong incentive to run it, but if you do make sure you have enough 2cmc creatures to compensate the curve (probably more than 8).
For many people (and when limiting the number of non-creature spells) it has been a toss-up between Brave the Elements and vial. Thus I find Sesordereht's decision to run both intriguing - you can maintain a means to rush creatures to the board and still have a defensive spell / wincon. Sesordereht - You should let us know in future matchups if this combination has any serious opportunities for synergy - EoT plays followed up by an unblockable charge of creatures is certainly noteworthy in the rogue/tier 1.5 toolbox.
I'm currently running a mono-white build that isn't using vial and has been played at a competitive level with some pretty decent results. I'll be sure to post some results after the next tourney. With Angelic Destiny, I actually had two matches go:
T1: Plains, SoW.
T2: Plains, level up. Swing for 3.
T3: Cavern, Mirran Crusader. Swing for 3.
T4: Plains, Angelic Destiny on the Crusader, swing for 12 in the air and 3 on the ground for critical. (21 damage in total).
At this point I still have 3-4 cards in hand and can stay in the game if faced with a board wipe or loss of board control. I have also won the game with only two creatures in play. I know that I could have more creatures in play with a vial (mitigating the effects of spot removal or sacrifice), but there is some security in still having cards to play if the assault goes south.
I don't know why I feel so uneasy with Aether Vial. Maybe it's just my bad luck i've had with them, seeming to never draw them in opening hands and lose tempo when I draw them late. My meta is also chock-full of competitive creature-control and combo, so maybe its my frustration for a lack of recent matchups against other aggro or tribal decks that gets it. Perhaps its been the shortage of Jund, Bant, Bogle, and Zoo matches as of late - it's always fun to blow them away with decisive combat.
I have to say that I prefer the Cavalier, despite the extra cost. I'll admit immediately that the Paladin's lower cost is attractive and the immediacy of his ability (+ vial tricks) is useful, but he is still inferior. This is for three reasons.
1. - The first (and most important) reason is that it is easier to get 2 for 1'd with the Paladin moreso than with the Cavalier. Say you are swinging at an opponent with both the Paladin and a soulbonded Knight of Meadowgrain, leveled Student of Warfare, or a Knight of the White Orchid, etc. Your opponent has a bunch of tokens or 2/2 hatebears or something similar. They bolt/destroy your other soulbonded Knight, and your Paladin is now just a helpless 2/2 swinging towards his doom and your tempo loss. This conditional combat effectiveness flies in the face of knight combat efficiency and limits his potential - he is an easy fix for a wary opponent.
Attacking with a Cavalier and a Knight of Meadowgrain and having the Meadowgrain bolted will still yield a Cavalier swinging with DS. In reality the Cavalier would be bolted but still - the point is the Paladin's conditional playstyle limits his potential in a meta packed with removal. Playing him essentially is like giving another creature DS and maintaining a DS blocker; attacking with him is risky. And in an aggro deck, we want to attack with everything - we need him to be more than just a utility card.
2. - At 3 mana, he clogs up the slots of other 3-drop attackers - I would play numerous other T3 knights before I play him (situation permitting). Casting and Vialing out 3-5 creatures, then dropping a Kinsbaile on T4 or T5 as a finisher and swinging with the rest is itself a wincon and viable strategy. We need as many wincons as possible to push the knight damage effectiveness over the edge, and Kinsbaile Cavalier with his immediate anthem certainly is one.
3. - If you have 2 or more knights in play other than the Paladin, the Cavalier is strictly better.
3.5 - Drawing two of them really, really sucks. Soulbonding them to each other is a loss of his ability, not to mentioned getting 2 for 1'd with 2 of them. The odds are unlikely, but still a possibility.
Despite these advantages I still think Silverblade is a strong card and should see play with the knights tribe - just use him decks with fewer 3-drops or less than 22-23 creatures. And/or use him in decks that sport non-knight creatures like Thalia, Qasali Pridemage, Grand Abolisher, Metamorph, etc.
As for Win-cons that can push the game over the edge by T4+ for an alpha-strike (of one or more critters), these four seem to be used most often: Brave the Elements, Elspeth-Knight Errant, Sword of X and Y, and Kinsbaile Cavalier. In a protection-heavy deck I have found Angelic Destiny to be viable as well. I have always seemed to find success when playing Knights via a somewhat "XBlade" approach of utilizing powerful equipment and/or enchantments alongside cost-effective creatures and removal. Do you guys have any thoughts on this?
On a brighter note, it looks like a full set of Flagstones of Trokair will be an auto-include in every knights deck with the new legend rule.
The first (and most important) reason is that it is easier to get 2 for 1'd with the Paladin moreso than with the Cavalier. Say you are swinging at an opponent with both the Paladin and a soulbonded Knight of Meadowgrain, leveled Student of Warfare, or a Knight of the White Orchid, etc. Your opponent has a bunch of tokens or 2/2 hatebears or something similar. They bolt/destroy your other soulbonded Knight, and your Paladin is now just a helpless 2/2 swinging towards his doom and your tempo loss. This conditional combat effectiveness flies in the face of knight combat efficiency and limits his potential - he is an easy fix for a wary opponent.
Attacking with a Cavalier and a Knight of Meadowgrain and having the Meadowgrain bolted will still yield a Cavalier swinging with DS. In reality the Cavalier would be bolted but still - the point is the Paladin's conditional playstyle limits his potential in a meta packed with removal. Playing him essentially is like giving another creature DS and maintaining a DS blocker; attacking with him is risky. And in an aggro deck, we want to attack with everything - we need him to be more than just a utility card.
I see what you're getting at, but your example is flawed.
1) Swing with Cavalier and Meadowgrain: They bolt the Cavalier, kill your Meadowgrain with their 2/3 Tarmogoyf.
2) Swing with Paladin and Soulbonded Meadowgrain: They bolt either one, kill the other.
In both situations the other one is dead. The only way that this doesn't happen is if they only have 2/2's (or 2/1's) out, and that's the only time there's a difference in results. I don't think it happens enough to justify the extra mana.
Now, the argument can be made that a removal-heavy meta favors the Cavalier in enough situations to justify the extra mana, but if you're counting out that double strike for combat math (which often becomes the case), then it's dangerous either way.
2. - At 3 mana, he clogs up the slots of other 3-drop attackers - I would play numerous other T3 knights before I play him (situation permitting). Casting and Vialing out 3-5 creatures, then dropping a Kinsbaile on T4 or T5 as a finisher and swinging with the rest is itself a wincon and viable strategy. We need as many wincons as possible to push the knight damage effectiveness over the edge, and Kinsbaile Cavalier with his immediate anthem certainly is one.
On the other hand, you can either drop a T4 Kinsbale unprotected or a Paladin protected (with BtE). That extra mana can clear away blockers with a PtE, or be used on T5 to cast an Exemplar and Equip a sword.
3. - If you have 2 or more knights in play other than the Paladin, the Cavalier is strictly better.
If you have three knights in play, you're probably winning either way.
3.5 - Drawing two of them really, really sucks. Soulbonding them to each other is a loss of his ability, not to mentioned getting 2 for 1'd with 2 of them. The odds are unlikely, but still a possibility.
Drawing two Cavaliers really, really sucks, too, since the abilities don't stack. He doesn't stack with the Crusader, either, which hurts his playability.
It really is a close call and is probably meta-dependent, but there are better alpha strike opportunities than a Cavalier.
It's this exact reason why Aether Vial should be recognized for its amazing synergy with an aggro tribe (in securing an early T4-T5 win) but I feel that its drawbacks should not necessarily make it an auto-include for EVERY knights deck. It's easy to fantasize about perfect scenarios where we have a Vial in our opening hand - which is indeed optimal - but remember there is only 4 of these in every 60 card deck. Your odds of finding one in your opening hand are just under 40%, and mulling to 6 yields you a draw chance of 35%. Drawing into your first vial on T3+ is not a welcome sight - especially when running a colour that exchanges card draw for card advantage. This is also to say nothing of the risks associated with emptying your hand quickly and being totalled by a surprise terminus, supreme verdict, jund charm, volcanic fallout//pyroclasm, rough and tumble, black sun's zenith, mutilate, etc.
Sweepers are the primary threat to Knights' success. You can have a good board position with Exemplar, Crusader, and KotWO, and a single 2-mana pyroclasm can wipe you clean. The biggest drawback to Knights is its lack of access to card draw and/or ways to replenish your hand.
That's why Vial is a deal with the devil. Yes, it's great to get it out turn one, but if you draw two, it's rare that you're going to have enough creatures to be able to apply the pressure necessary to get through against the best decks.
Now, while you can Vial in Student of Warfare and level him up, you're still paying less mana for a 3/3 that's going to get bolted. The only times I've ever gotten him to the 4/4 double-striker are when they don't have removal, and IMHO there are better things to spend 8 mana on than a 4/4 double striker.
Compare him, for example, to Champion of the Parish. Now, the Parishioner is not a Knight, but in this deck he triggers off of every other Knight so he gets the honorary Knighthood even if he's not traditionally one.
For reference, this is basically the build I have right now:
Note: I'd put in more Vials and Metamorphs if I had them; I'm still padding the MTG slush fund.
And yes, I realize my curve is high, but I like to go on the draw, for a couple reasons. First off, playing a third-turn KotWO (especially off a Vial) and then laying an untapped land is one of my favoritest plays ever. Having the ability for Mr. Orchid to catch you up land-wise is huge, and it happens enough that getting overrun is not much of an issue.
BtE and Swords are necessary additions, IMHO. Again - limited card draw means you have to protect your Knights, and these are good ways to do it, since they both protect your dudes and offer ways to finish the game.
The deck as it stands isn't finished, but I like where it's at and it only needs a few tweaks. It stands up surprisingly well to a lot of the more common builds out there.
I see what you're getting at, but your example is flawed.
1) Swing with Cavalier and Meadowgrain: They bolt the Cavalier, kill your Meadowgrain with their 2/3 Tarmogoyf.
2) Swing with Paladin and Soulbonded Meadowgrain: They bolt either one, kill the other.
In both situations the other one is dead. The only way that this doesn't happen is if they only have 2/2's (or 2/1's) out, and that's the only time there's a difference in results. I don't think it happens enough to justify the extra mana.
True, in the example I gave it's likely they both would have been dead, I guess it wasn't the best example. The main point I am trying to make here is that the Cavalier is still functional with his ability even if he is the only creature in play. If the Paladin is un-bonded from another creature he's just a 2/2 bear for Domri Rade to -2 or a Goyf to gobble up, there's no way around it unless you can vial something in time. This can have serious implications for board position. I just feel that the Paladin's limitations make him less of a beater and more of a utility card, and while he may shine in matchups against decks lacking removal, most decks will have their way with him the first chance they get. I feel I can only really count on him for the DS for the turn he is played. It also makes running BtE all the more worthwhile in a deck that uses him, albeit you would also want the vial for combat tricks - and that brings us back to the discussion of a BtE and vial toss up.
Quote from Laimbrane »
Now, the argument can be made that a removal-heavy meta favors the Cavalier in enough situations to justify the extra mana, but if you're counting out that double strike for combat math (which often becomes the case), then it's dangerous either way.
I'm not sure what you mean here, is it dangerous either way for tempo loss?
Quote from Laimbrane »
On the other hand, you can either drop a T4 Kinsbale unprotected or a Paladin protected (with BtE). That extra mana can clear away blockers with a PtE, or be used on T5 to cast an Exemplar and Equip a sword.
Very valid point, although the T5 example doesn't really concern our discussion. There are a multitude of plays you could make on T5, including dropping a Cavalier supported by BtE to ensure the Cavalier survives and enough damage is freely dealt across the board. I find well-played swords can be more effective for making people scoop rather than dealing critical damage by T4 or T5.
Quote from Laimbrane »
If you have three knights in play, you're probably winning either way.
You said probably. What if, despite having three knights in play, the toughness of the creatures your facing down outmatch your first strike damage output? Wouldn't you rather cast a Cavalier than a Paladin here? Remember that the Cavalier is more or less a finisher, I would want to have enough knights already in play so that I could take full advantage of his ability. And having a bunch of knights in play is what we are all striving for anyways, right? By that point the decisive turn to play him may be T5, where all he needs to do is exist - and this can be afforded with an extra mana for BtE. In what's likely a weakness to this argument, though, is a knights deck likely won't have 5 land by turn 5.:rolleyes:
Quote from Laimbrane »
Drawing two Cavaliers really, really sucks, too, since the abilities don't stack. He doesn't stack with the Crusader, either, which hurts his playability.
It really is a close call and is probably meta-dependent, but there are better alpha strike opportunities than a Cavalier.
Yeah it would suck, I fully agree. But even with two in play they would still be functional without the need for the other. And he doesn't stack with the Crusader any more than the Paladin does, so how does that hurt his playability? Your last point, however, is sound. It truly is a close call and meta + deck dependent. There are certainly better alpha strike opportunities than the Cavalier, that's why most people would only run one or two at a time.
Funny enough I actually run Silverblade Paladin in my deck right now, not the Cavalier. But I wanted to make sure a case could adequately be made for the pros and cons of both cards, and that they are indeed both viable but function differently. Despite having 4 Exemplars and 4 BtEs and maybe 4 vials in a deck to help cover the Paladin, he still feels extremely vulnerable and to me is more of a utility than beater, as I don't expect him to last long once in play. This keeps him only a few notches above Accorder Paladin for risky plays to me. I don't like how the game must play to support him, rather than as a durable, self-sufficient creature he plays to support you.
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'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Sweepers are the primary threat to Knights' success. You can have a good board position with Exemplar, Crusader, and KotWO, and a single 2-mana pyroclasm can wipe you clean. The biggest drawback to Knights is its lack of access to card draw and/or ways to replenish your hand.
That's why Vial is a deal with the devil. Yes, it's great to get it out turn one, but if you draw two, it's rare that you're going to have enough creatures to be able to apply the pressure necessary to get through against the best decks.
Now, while you can Vial in Student of Warfare and level him up, you're still paying less mana for a 3/3 that's going to get bolted. The only times I've ever gotten him to the 4/4 double-striker are when they don't have removal, and IMHO there are better things to spend 8 mana on than a 4/4 double striker.
Indeed, I also find sweepers to be a massive threat to our Knights' success. If anything, it's all the more reason to run BtE to prevent as much as you can, be it a pyroclasm or a killspell aimed at an Exemplar prior to Supreme Verdict. I've often considered running Mana Tithe at times alongside BtE and Path, but there is limited space for non-creature cards.
I think vial as a deal with the devil is a perfect explanation and should have been in the flavour text. As you said, what it lacks with a dead draw it can make up in tempo, such as your SoW example. In the grand scheme of things, it really is a risky card to run - especially without supporting card draw. You're rolling the dice with draw odds diminishing from 40% each time. I'm always working on my MtG poker face.
Quote from Laimbrane »
Compare him, for example, to Champion of the Parish. Now, the Parishioner is not a Knight, but in this deck he triggers off of every other Knight so he gets the honorary Knighthood even if he's not traditionally one.
For reference, this is basically the build I have right now:
I think this looks pretty solid, you certainly have a strong mana base. Are you sure about running only 1 vial though? That seems like your asking for a dead draw - it may be more worthwhile to just take it out until you run a set.
I think we had a discussion about running Champion of the Parish a while ago, and the consensus deemed that as a 1-drop, non-knight creature, he didn't measure up because of his long-term potential. He is a bad card to draw into on T3+ without having superior numbers of creatures, and even then his role is circumstantial - at least with the student you can sink mana into it if you draw one late game. With only 21 creatures, are you sure that his usefulness can be maximized?
Otherwise you have some good choices, I can see the merit of DoJ>Wrath since you are running Nimbus. Your sideboard could probably be upgraded a bit, albeit I like your choice of a set of Kor Firewalker, I used to run the same. If you ever get a chance to invest in a set of Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace you should do so - they are invaluable in reversing games against your opponents, especially combo decks. Prices on the leyline have shot up since I last checked, though. Cards can be expensive. I'm no stranger to it in Canada, I often order most of my cards from the States.
Quote from Sajrajt »
Lots of interesting stuff!
I quite enjoyed this. If you don't mind me asking, were you using TappedOut to do this, or did you carefully document a game with a friend, or document one from Cockatrice/Lackey?
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'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Double Strike is not "This creature deals double damage", but "This creature deals damage in first strike phase as well as in normal strike phase". It only works in combat. Kinsblade is also 2/2 bear in "fights", it is noncombat damage. Only deathtouch helps in "fights".
You're quite right, I just read Wizard's unveiling discussion of it, it shows how much I've played around with the Fight mechanic. At the prerelease and the other few matches where i've played with/against it I guess we all inadvertently considered the damage to be combat damage rather than just damage, and thus made use of creature abilities like first strike. That actually makes the mechanic much better than I initially thought.
Quote from Sajrajt »
I was quite suprised that you actually consider playing Kinsblade Cavalier. Ok, if I want to test him out, I cant just switch him for Silverblade, because I need to maintain my mana curve. I have to switch him for lets say Wilt-Leaf liege. Then what will I play on 3 mana slot? Silverblade is out of question, Mirran Crusader allready have double strike, KoTR and Exemplar are allready in.
That leaves me with three options:
1) Play alot of 2cmc knights: Accorder Paladins, Daring Skyjeks, Leonin Skyhunter, Knight of the Holy Nimbus. Maybe play it mono W with no Aather Vials and use Kinsblade with evasive creatures as finisher - T1 SoW T2 AP T3 KE T4 Kinsblade to attack with 3/2, 4/2 and 3/2 double strike (20 damage) or T1 SoW T2 Skyjeck T3 Skyjeck T4 level and skyhunter T5 Kinsblade to attack for 16 in air, but then my creatures are very fragile, removal spoil everthing and pyroclasm will be big blowout. It is not as fast as gruul aggro, infect or affinity on top of that.
2) Use Paladin en-Vec instead of Silverbalde to get more awesome version of Mirran Crusader (that can even use Rancor) and preserve my current deck strategy.
3) Redesign whole deck, add black for Haakon and alike.
I certainly would consider playing him, given the right circumstances. If you feel that you can only exchange him for a Wilt-Leaf Liege and you are going to sub your Silverblade(s), then my most immediate recommendation would probably be to add in Paladin en-Vec as you suggested in option 2). He is fantastic with Rancor in a G/W setting; I know Nabbydian would back me up here. You also have access to Stillmoon Cavalier, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, Skyhunter Skirmisher and, to a lesser extent, Riftmarked Knight and Tivadar of Thorn, among others.
Your options 1) and 3) seem a little extreme and like completely different playstyles. You can include a Cavalier or two as a subtle adjustment: use him for your 4cmc slot instead of what you previously had, and make use of the immediate effect of his anthem. He may just surprise you.
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'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Indeed, I also find sweepers to be a massive threat to our Knights' success. If anything, it's all the more reason to run BtE to prevent as much as you can, be it a pyroclasm or a killspell aimed at an Exemplar prior to Supreme Verdict. I've often considered running Mana Tithe at times alongside BtE and Path, but there is limited space for non-creature cards.
Sweepers are the main reason that I run Metamorphs - having an Exemplar in play with a Vial at four is a great way to prevent your creatures from getting blown up.
As far as card draw... yeah, it's hard. I've seen some people splash blue for Court Hussar, and Sky Hussar is a draw option, if clumsy.
I think this looks pretty solid, you certainly have a strong mana base. Are you sure about running only 1 vial though? That seems like your asking for a dead draw - it may be more worthwhile to just take it out until you run a set.
I only have 1. I'd like to get more when I have the funds.
I think we had a discussion about running Champion of the Parish a while ago, and the consensus deemed that as a 1-drop, non-knight creature, he didn't measure up because of his long-term potential. He is a bad card to draw into on T3+ without having superior numbers of creatures, and even then his role is circumstantial - at least with the student you can sink mana into it if you draw one late game. With only 21 creatures, are you sure that his usefulness can be maximized?
All very good points. I'd just added him in.
Otherwise you have some good choices, I can see the merit of DoJ>Wrath since you are running Nimbus. Your sideboard could probably be upgraded a bit, albeit I like your choice of a set of Kor Firewalker, I used to run the same. If you ever get a chance to invest in a set of Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace you should do so - they are invaluable in reversing games against your opponents, especially combo decks. Prices on the leyline have shot up since I last checked, though. Cards can be expensive. I'm no stranger to it in Canada, I often order most of my cards from the States.
Nabi, could you please share with us your last G/W Vial Knights decklist?
Sorry for the late reply, I went on a short MTGS hiatus due to heavy workload and travelling :rolleyes:, I'll post my most recent GW Vial Knights list later when I'm home, and will update the decklists in the opening post if possible ;).
I certainly would consider playing him, given the right circumstances. If you feel that you can only exchange him for a Wilt-Leaf Liege and you are going to sub your Silverblade(s), then my most immediate recommendation would probably be to add in Paladin en-Vec as you suggested in option 2). He is fantastic with Rancor in a G/W setting; I know Nabbydian would back me up here. You also have access to Stillmoon Cavalier, Wilt-Leaf Cavaliers, Skyhunter Skirmisher and, to a lesser extent, Riftmarked Knight and Tivadar of Thorn, among others.
Paladin is really there as a color hoser. He works especially effective against UWR tempo decks which relies on Lightning Helix and Lightning Bolt to clear the path of creatures, which is very prevalent in my meta. Rancor on the Paladin allows me to race against their burn.
As far as card draw... yeah, it's hard. I've seen some people splash blue for Court Hussar, and Sky Hussar is a draw option, if clumsy.
I really like Court Hussar, that said I'm not sure if it is worthwhile to splash one more color just for this knight. It's P/T is just underwhelming....
Woah! Those are some nice full-art cards! How on earth did you get a hold of them? I'll see if I can upload a photo of my list too, if I get a chance. Gotta love full-art BtE and foil DCI Paths.
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Standard WRG Naya Blitz WR Boros Aggro W White Lightning
Modern W Death and Taxes WKnights R Red Deck Wins RG Zoo WG Hatebears WG Aura Hexproof WU Luminarch Ascension WB Tokens WUB Esper Control
'Tact' is the art of making a point without making an enemy. - Sir Isaac Newton
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Woah! Those are some nice full-art cards! How on earth did you get a hold of them? I'll see if I can upload a photo of my list too, if I get a chance. Gotta love full-art BtE and foil DCI Paths.
Thanks! I find them amazing too :nod:.
I send them for commission.;) I actually have a few more Knights alters which is not in the picture, I'll post them up too :).
Deck - everything is foil aside of Temple Gardens, Horizon Canopies and three Arid Mesas, but I am working on it (also I want to replace promo foils with regular foils in time)
Celestial Flare looks like a good sideboard card. Infect doesn't really have a good answer to this and can't just hexproof their guy like they do for Path to Exile. Looks like it'd do a number on the Bogle-Enchant deck too. It's less exciting elsewhere, but I think the card is a meta choice worth considering
Celestial Flare looks like a good sideboard card. Infect doesn't really have a good answer to this and can't just hexproof their guy like they do for Path to Exile. Looks like it'd do a number on the Bogle-Enchant deck too. It's less exciting elsewhere, but I think the card is a meta choice worth considering
Celestial Flare looks interesting, straightaway when I saw this card it reminds me of Wing Shards and Dispense Justice, but I find the "sacrifcing blocking creature" useful too. At least we don't need to worry about an opposing Goyf stopping our whole army of Knights.
hello experienced knight players!
I've been coming back to this primer here and there for a while now being very tempted to build one version of knights or another, and with an all of a sudden easier access to cards for modern then I've had in the past I was toying with the idea of building a G// version of knights adding in a few non-knight utility creatures in the form of deathrite shaman, disciple of bolas, and potentially bob if I could afford them ^_^'
not to mention the conjunction of G and B gives access to both abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse
hello experienced knight players!
I've been coming back to this primer here and there for a while now being very tempted to build one version of knights or another, and with an all of a sudden easier access to cards for modern then I've had in the past I was toying with the idea of building a G// version of knights adding in a few non-knight utility creatures in the form of deathrite shaman, disciple of bolas, and potentially bob if I could afford them ^_^'
not to mention the conjunction of G and B gives access to both abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse
Hi there, nice to know the primer/thread contains something that interest you ;).
yup that's right, at the moment Modern decks is suddenly easier to complete with the influx of cards with more players holding Modern cards than ever :thumbsup:.
I can understand your desire to play strong creature cards such as Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman, while staple spells such as Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse are just so main deckable. However as a tribal deck we really cant afford to have too many creatures that are non-knight, that means we can't be playing playsets of Bob and DRS and still retain a knight core. Although you mention you only wishes to add in a few of these utility creatures, I believe in most games you would prefer to see this utility creatures more than knights eventually. That said, it is certainly possible to pop a few DRS and Bob into a Junk Knights, just that I think it would make more sense to just play Junk instead (I really hate to say this though :rolleyes:0. Not to forget in Junk Knights if we play Knight Exemplar, the WW is a problem to achieve, so is the other WW knights and Student of Warfare, which is a 1-drop knight dependant on a strong W mana base to level up quickly. Overall I think consistency is compromised here :-/.
I completely understand, i was mainly compelled more so of the fact of being able to run a copy of haakon, stronghold scourge in being able to rebuild if a boardwipe hits at an inopportune moment, and being able to drop in a disciple of bolas in response to targeted removal.
though might have been the best though out not paying atention to color restrictive costs for a fast creature based deck
I have to say I tend to play slower decks so all out approaches don't always click right away for me
How would you be able to drop in disciple of bolas in response to targeted removal? I don't see any means of giving it flash that you have listed. would you prefer momentous fall instead, perhaps?
I completely understand, i was mainly compelled more so of the fact of being able to run a copy of haakon, stronghold scourge in being able to rebuild if a boardwipe hits at an inopportune moment, and being able to drop in a disciple of bolas in response to targeted removal.
though might have been the best though out not paying atention to color restrictive costs for a fast creature based deck
I have to say I tend to play slower decks so all out approaches don't always click right away for me
I did played a BW Haakon/Knight Exemplar Knights deck in Legacy, it was difficult to get the WW & BB manabase right but being legacy there is Wasteland so it should be easier to setup in Modern.
Similar to you, I also prefer to play slower decks over all out "drop the hand" decks :nod:;).
How would you be able to drop in disciple of bolas in response to targeted removal? I don't see any means of giving it flash that you have listed. would you prefer momentous fall instead, perhaps?
Paladin en-Vec
It's this exact reason why Aether Vial should be recognized for its amazing synergy with an aggro tribe (in securing an early T4-T5 win) but I feel that its drawbacks should not necessarily make it an auto-include for EVERY knights deck. It's easy to fantasize about perfect scenarios where we have a vial in our opening hand - which is indeed optimal - but remember there is only 4 of these in every 60 card deck. Your odds of finding one in your opening hand are just under 40%, and mulling to 6 yields you a draw chance of 35%. Drawing into your first vial on T3+ is not a welcome sight - especially when running a colour that exchanges card draw for card advantage. This is also to say nothing of the risks associated with emptying your hand quickly and being totalled by a surprise terminus, supreme verdict, jund charm, volcanic fallout//pyroclasm, rough (rough/tumble), black sun's zenith, mutilate, etc.
I'm not arguing against running the vials or saying that the cons outweigh the pros - just that we should be wary of the risks. I own a set myself and i'm not ignorant of its potential, but drawing a vial on T3 or T4 (or, god forbid, two in a row) is not necessarily what you want to see. I find that this is more forgivable in G/W or Puresteel builds that have some card draw (to negate your lost draw). The trick toolbox of vial with any knights deck provides a heavy tempo gain and a strong incentive to run it, but if you do make sure you have enough 2cmc creatures to compensate the curve (probably more than 8).
For many people (and when limiting the number of non-creature spells) it has been a toss-up between Brave the Elements and vial. Thus I find Sesordereht's decision to run both intriguing - you can maintain a means to rush creatures to the board and still have a defensive spell / wincon. Sesordereht - You should let us know in future matchups if this combination has any serious opportunities for synergy - EoT plays followed up by an unblockable charge of creatures is certainly noteworthy in the rogue/tier 1.5 toolbox.
I'm currently running a mono-white build that isn't using vial and has been played at a competitive level with some pretty decent results. I'll be sure to post some results after the next tourney. With Angelic Destiny, I actually had two matches go:
T1: Plains, SoW.
T2: Plains, level up. Swing for 3.
T3: Cavern, Mirran Crusader. Swing for 3.
T4: Plains, Angelic Destiny on the Crusader, swing for 12 in the air and 3 on the ground for critical. (21 damage in total).
At this point I still have 3-4 cards in hand and can stay in the game if faced with a board wipe or loss of board control. I have also won the game with only two creatures in play. I know that I could have more creatures in play with a vial (mitigating the effects of spot removal or sacrifice), but there is some security in still having cards to play if the assault goes south.
I don't know why I feel so uneasy with Aether Vial. Maybe it's just my bad luck i've had with them, seeming to never draw them in opening hands and lose tempo when I draw them late. My meta is also chock-full of competitive creature-control and combo, so maybe its my frustration for a lack of recent matchups against other aggro or tribal decks that gets it. Perhaps its been the shortage of Jund, Bant, Bogle, and Zoo matches as of late - it's always fun to blow them away with decisive combat.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I have to say that I prefer the Cavalier, despite the extra
1. - The first (and most important) reason is that it is easier to get 2 for 1'd with the Paladin moreso than with the Cavalier. Say you are swinging at an opponent with both the Paladin and a soulbonded Knight of Meadowgrain, leveled Student of Warfare, or a Knight of the White Orchid, etc. Your opponent has a bunch of tokens or 2/2 hatebears or something similar. They bolt/destroy your other soulbonded Knight, and your Paladin is now just a helpless 2/2 swinging towards his doom and your tempo loss. This conditional combat effectiveness flies in the face of knight combat efficiency and limits his potential - he is an easy fix for a wary opponent.
Attacking with a Cavalier and a Knight of Meadowgrain and having the Meadowgrain bolted will still yield a Cavalier swinging with DS. In reality the Cavalier would be bolted but still - the point is the Paladin's conditional playstyle limits his potential in a meta packed with removal. Playing him essentially is like giving another creature DS and maintaining a DS blocker; attacking with him is risky. And in an aggro deck, we want to attack with everything - we need him to be more than just a utility card.
2. - At 3 mana, he clogs up the slots of other 3-drop attackers - I would play numerous other T3 knights before I play him (situation permitting). Casting and Vialing out 3-5 creatures, then dropping a Kinsbaile on T4 or T5 as a finisher and swinging with the rest is itself a wincon and viable strategy. We need as many wincons as possible to push the knight damage effectiveness over the edge, and Kinsbaile Cavalier with his immediate anthem certainly is one.
3. - If you have 2 or more knights in play other than the Paladin, the Cavalier is strictly better.
3.5 - Drawing two of them really, really sucks. Soulbonding them to each other is a loss of his ability, not to mentioned getting 2 for 1'd with 2 of them. The odds are unlikely, but still a possibility.
Despite these advantages I still think Silverblade is a strong card and should see play with the knights tribe - just use him decks with fewer 3-drops or less than 22-23 creatures. And/or use him in decks that sport non-knight creatures like Thalia, Qasali Pridemage, Grand Abolisher, Metamorph, etc.
As for Win-cons that can push the game over the edge by T4+ for an alpha-strike (of one or more critters), these four seem to be used most often: Brave the Elements, Elspeth-Knight Errant, Sword of X and Y, and Kinsbaile Cavalier. In a protection-heavy deck I have found Angelic Destiny to be viable as well.
On a brighter note, it looks like a full set of Flagstones of Trokair will be an auto-include in every knights deck with the new legend rule.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I see what you're getting at, but your example is flawed.
1) Swing with Cavalier and Meadowgrain: They bolt the Cavalier, kill your Meadowgrain with their 2/3 Tarmogoyf.
2) Swing with Paladin and Soulbonded Meadowgrain: They bolt either one, kill the other.
In both situations the other one is dead. The only way that this doesn't happen is if they only have 2/2's (or 2/1's) out, and that's the only time there's a difference in results. I don't think it happens enough to justify the extra mana.
Now, the argument can be made that a removal-heavy meta favors the Cavalier in enough situations to justify the extra mana, but if you're counting out that double strike for combat math (which often becomes the case), then it's dangerous either way.
On the other hand, you can either drop a T4 Kinsbale unprotected or a Paladin protected (with BtE). That extra mana can clear away blockers with a PtE, or be used on T5 to cast an Exemplar and Equip a sword.
If you have three knights in play, you're probably winning either way.
Drawing two Cavaliers really, really sucks, too, since the abilities don't stack. He doesn't stack with the Crusader, either, which hurts his playability.
It really is a close call and is probably meta-dependent, but there are better alpha strike opportunities than a Cavalier.
Sweepers are the primary threat to Knights' success. You can have a good board position with Exemplar, Crusader, and KotWO, and a single 2-mana pyroclasm can wipe you clean. The biggest drawback to Knights is its lack of access to card draw and/or ways to replenish your hand.
That's why Vial is a deal with the devil. Yes, it's great to get it out turn one, but if you draw two, it's rare that you're going to have enough creatures to be able to apply the pressure necessary to get through against the best decks.
Now, while you can Vial in Student of Warfare and level him up, you're still paying less mana for a 3/3 that's going to get bolted. The only times I've ever gotten him to the 4/4 double-striker are when they don't have removal, and IMHO there are better things to spend 8 mana on than a 4/4 double striker.
Compare him, for example, to Champion of the Parish. Now, the Parishioner is not a Knight, but in this deck he triggers off of every other Knight so he gets the honorary Knighthood even if he's not traditionally one.
For reference, this is basically the build I have right now:
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Knight of the White Orchid
3 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
Support:
4 Path to Exile
4 Brave the Elements
2 Day of Judgment
1 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Feast or Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Ajani Goldmane
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
23 Plains
4 Kor Firewalker
1 Day of Judgment
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Norn's Annex
2 Trinisphere
Note: I'd put in more Vials and Metamorphs if I had them; I'm still padding the MTG slush fund.
And yes, I realize my curve is high, but I like to go on the draw, for a couple reasons. First off, playing a third-turn KotWO (especially off a Vial) and then laying an untapped land is one of my favoritest plays ever. Having the ability for Mr. Orchid to catch you up land-wise is huge, and it happens enough that getting overrun is not much of an issue.
BtE and Swords are necessary additions, IMHO. Again - limited card draw means you have to protect your Knights, and these are good ways to do it, since they both protect your dudes and offer ways to finish the game.
The deck as it stands isn't finished, but I like where it's at and it only needs a few tweaks. It stands up surprisingly well to a lot of the more common builds out there.
I'm not sure what you mean here, is it dangerous either way for tempo loss?
Very valid point, although the T5 example doesn't really concern our discussion. There are a multitude of plays you could make on T5, including dropping a Cavalier supported by BtE to ensure the Cavalier survives and enough damage is freely dealt across the board. I find well-played swords can be more effective for making people scoop rather than dealing critical damage by T4 or T5.
You said probably.
Yeah it would suck, I fully agree. But even with two in play they would still be functional without the need for the other. And he doesn't stack with the Crusader any more than the Paladin does, so how does that hurt his playability? Your last point, however, is sound. It truly is a close call and meta + deck dependent. There are certainly better alpha strike opportunities than the Cavalier, that's why most people would only run one or two at a time.
Funny enough I actually run Silverblade Paladin in my deck right now, not the Cavalier. But I wanted to make sure a case could adequately be made for the pros and cons of both cards, and that they are indeed both viable but function differently. Despite having 4 Exemplars and 4 BtEs and maybe 4 vials in a deck to help cover the Paladin, he still feels extremely vulnerable and to me is more of a utility than beater, as I don't expect him to last long once in play. This keeps him only a few notches above Accorder Paladin for risky plays to me. I don't like how the game must play to support him, rather than as a durable, self-sufficient creature he plays to support you.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I've looked for years for cards that would be effective in replenishing a knight player's hand, but outside of Well of Lost Dreams, Infiltration Lens, Gift of Estates, Endless Horizons and common cantrips (ideally Wall of Omens, To Arms! and Scout's Warning) there really just isn't anything there. Every other colour has answers to this, except White.
I think vial as a deal with the devil is a perfect explanation and should have been in the flavour text. As you said, what it lacks with a dead draw it can make up in tempo, such as your SoW example. In the grand scheme of things, it really is a risky card to run - especially without supporting card draw. You're rolling the dice with draw odds diminishing from 40% each time. I'm always working on my MtG poker face.
I think this looks pretty solid, you certainly have a strong mana base. Are you sure about running only 1 vial though? That seems like your asking for a dead draw - it may be more worthwhile to just take it out until you run a set.
I think we had a discussion about running Champion of the Parish a while ago, and the consensus deemed that as a 1-drop, non-knight creature, he didn't measure up because of his long-term potential. He is a bad card to draw into on T3+ without having superior numbers of creatures, and even then his role is circumstantial - at least with the student you can sink mana into it if you draw one late game. With only 21 creatures, are you sure that his usefulness can be maximized?
Otherwise you have some good choices, I can see the merit of DoJ>Wrath since you are running Nimbus. Your sideboard could probably be upgraded a bit, albeit I like your choice of a set of Kor Firewalker, I used to run the same. If you ever get a chance to invest in a set of Leyline of Sanctity and Rest in Peace you should do so - they are invaluable in reversing games against your opponents, especially combo decks. Prices on the leyline have shot up since I last checked, though. Cards can be expensive.
I quite enjoyed this.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I certainly would consider playing him, given the right circumstances. If you feel that you can only exchange him for a Wilt-Leaf Liege and you are going to sub your Silverblade(s), then my most immediate recommendation would probably be to add in Paladin en-Vec as you suggested in option 2). He is fantastic with Rancor in a G/W setting; I know Nabbydian would back me up here.
Your options 1) and 3) seem a little extreme and like completely different playstyles. You can include a Cavalier or two as a subtle adjustment: use him for your 4cmc slot instead of what you previously had, and make use of the immediate effect of his anthem. He may just surprise you.
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Sweepers are the main reason that I run Metamorphs - having an Exemplar in play with a Vial at four is a great way to prevent your creatures from getting blown up.
As far as card draw... yeah, it's hard. I've seen some people splash blue for Court Hussar, and Sky Hussar is a draw option, if clumsy.
I only have 1. I'd like to get more when I have the funds.
All very good points. I'd just added him in.
Thanks for the advice!
Sorry for the late reply, I went on a short MTGS hiatus due to heavy workload and travelling :rolleyes:, I'll post my most recent GW Vial Knights list later when I'm home, and will update the decklists in the opening post if possible ;).
Paladin is really there as a color hoser. He works especially effective against UWR tempo decks which relies on Lightning Helix and Lightning Bolt to clear the path of creatures, which is very prevalent in my meta. Rancor on the Paladin allows me to race against their burn.
I really like Court Hussar, that said I'm not sure if it is worthwhile to splash one more color just for this knight. It's P/T is just underwhelming....
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
And the Decklist below:
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Paladin en-Vec
4 Student of Warfare
3 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Spells [4]
4 Path to Exile
Enchantments [4]
4 Rancor
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Lands [22]
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Marsh Flats
9 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Brave the Elements
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Relic of Progenitus
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
WRG Naya Blitz
WR Boros Aggro
W White Lightning
Modern
W Death and Taxes
W Knights
R Red Deck Wins
RG Zoo
WG Hatebears
WG Aura Hexproof
WU Luminarch Ascension
WB Tokens
WUB Esper Control
And as water has no constant form, there are in war no constant conditions. - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
I send them for commission.;) I actually have a few more Knights alters which is not in the picture, I'll post them up too :).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Foils Horizon Canopy and fetches really does cost a bomb :rolleyes:.
Those foils really look amazing...
I have a completed all foil Knights deck below (except Savannah), but that's for legacy, which is why my modern knights deck is mostly alters ;).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Celestial Flare looks like a good sideboard card. Infect doesn't really have a good answer to this and can't just hexproof their guy like they do for Path to Exile. Looks like it'd do a number on the Bogle-Enchant deck too. It's less exciting elsewhere, but I think the card is a meta choice worth considering
Celestial Flare looks interesting, straightaway when I saw this card it reminds me of Wing Shards and Dispense Justice, but I find the "sacrifcing blocking creature" useful too. At least we don't need to worry about an opposing Goyf stopping our whole army of Knights.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I've been coming back to this primer here and there for a while now being very tempted to build one version of knights or another, and with an all of a sudden easier access to cards for modern then I've had in the past I was toying with the idea of building a G// version of knights adding in a few non-knight utility creatures in the form of deathrite shaman, disciple of bolas, and potentially bob if I could afford them ^_^'
not to mention the conjunction of G and B gives access to both abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse
Currently playing
Nath of The Gilt-Leaf
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Hi there, nice to know the primer/thread contains something that interest you ;).
I can understand your desire to play strong creature cards such as Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman, while staple spells such as Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse are just so main deckable. However as a tribal deck we really cant afford to have too many creatures that are non-knight, that means we can't be playing playsets of Bob and DRS and still retain a knight core. Although you mention you only wishes to add in a few of these utility creatures, I believe in most games you would prefer to see this utility creatures more than knights eventually. That said, it is certainly possible to pop a few DRS and Bob into a Junk Knights, just that I think it would make more sense to just play Junk instead (I really hate to say this though :rolleyes:0. Not to forget in Junk Knights if we play Knight Exemplar, the WW is a problem to achieve, so is the other WW knights and Student of Warfare, which is a 1-drop knight dependant on a strong W mana base to level up quickly. Overall I think consistency is compromised here :-/.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
though might have been the best though out not paying atention to color restrictive costs for a fast creature based deck
I have to say I tend to play slower decks so all out approaches don't always click right away for me
Currently playing
Nath of The Gilt-Leaf
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
What are the pros and cons of playing a Knight deck in the current meta? What are the hardest / easiest match ups?
With Haakon, Stromgald Scourge it might be a different story lolz...off my mind if we play a singleton Haakon then we probably need a little Dredging I suppose via Life from the Loam/Darkblast type dredge cards or Grisly Savage. I'll hate to have my Dark Confidant or Deathrite Shaman dredged into graveyard though since there is no way to recur them.
I did played a BW Haakon/Knight Exemplar Knights deck in Legacy, it was difficult to get the WW & BB manabase right but being legacy there is Wasteland so it should be easier to setup in Modern.
Similar to you, I also prefer to play slower decks over all out "drop the hand" decks :nod:;).
Perhaps he intended to have Aether Vial around?
LOLZ, :thumbsup:+1 :nod:.
Hi MemoryLapse, let me do some thinking first, I'll get back to you again on this :).
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
Fiendslayer Paladin 1ww (R)
Lifelink
First strike
Can't be the target of black or red spells your opp controls.
Thanx to Bookworm10 for the Sig.
Check out my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ThyrixSyx
Cockatrice: shadowkill
Rules Adviser
I'm not a big fan that it's not protection from Red/Black. But It's still pretty good.