Because he sucks. Also forgemaster combo is way slow. A lot of players consider it too slow for competitive standard...and this format is a turn 2-4 format.(sometimes 1)
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Phew it took me a little bit to find this thread. A couple hours ago I played against a Tezzerator deck. Never heard of it before (Thank you Modern for convincing me to learn a format other than standard)
Cards I saw in 3 games (with no sideboard, but I spoke to the kid and got his board) :
Shackles
Expedition Map
Ensnaring Bridge
Clique
Trinket Mage
Engineered Explosives
Thirst for Knowledge
Spell Snare
Condescend
Cryptic Command
Punishing Fire
Pyrite Spellbomb
Aether Spellbomb
Pithing Needle
Tezzeret the Seeker
Misty Rainforest
Miren, the Moaning Well
Academy Ruins
Grove of the Burnwillows
Steam Vents
Scalding Tarn
Islands (duh)
Darksteel Citadel
Board:
Elixir of Immortality
Tormod's Crypt
Relic or Progenitus
Ancient Grudge x3
Blood Moon x3
Firespout x2
Trickbind x3
Crucible of Worlds
I was running a Birthing Pod deck. Match went to 3 games (with no sideboard for testing purposes) but he got me. I'm convinced I want to play this deck but can it actually be competitive at larger tournaments?
Originally posted by Deimosfobos
BTW... what a silly question, I guess I should go to Ux control forum and ask: How come Mana Leak has a place in Ux control?
It's been working fairly well for me against Zoo, Pyro Ascension and Twelvepost but I'm running into some difficulty against Counter-Cat and especially Poison combo.
I'll find some more to talk about in a bit but my main comment is I feel like 4 Cryptic Command might be too much.
How's the game against all of the various Combo decks in the format? All of the lists I've seen in this thread seem like they do alright against Breachpost, but pretty much fold to any of the more degenerate combos in the format- Infect, Splinter Twin. Also, how's the Affinity match up?
How's the game against all of the various Combo decks in the format? All of the lists I've seen in this thread seem like they do alright against Breachpost, but pretty much fold to any of the more degenerate combos in the format- Infect, Splinter Twin. Also, how's the Affinity match up?
Twin is very dependent on getting a Pithing Needle (or two) or a chalice (at 3) as fast as possible; not very good.
Infect is just god-awful. I'm VERY strongly considering how to sideboard for the match but it is a very difficult matchup for this deck.
I've only played ONE match against affinity (went to 3 games) and in game 1, I got a turn 2 Shackles that stole his Atog on turn 3 and he never drew enough business spells for anything to matter; game 2 he flung his Atog at me on turn 3 and I died very much. Game 3, his Atog ate all his stuff around turn 5 and was promptly bounced by Venser, Shaper Savant.
The deck could be competitive but definitely needs some serious work.
Twin is very dependent on getting a Pithing Needle (or two) or a chalice (at 3) as fast as possible; not very good.
Infect is just god-awful. I'm VERY strongly considering how to sideboard for the match but it is a very difficult matchup for this deck.
I've only played ONE match against affinity (went to 3 games) and in game 1, I got a turn 2 Shackles that stole his Atog on turn 3 and he never drew enough business spells for anything to matter; game 2 he flung his Atog at me on turn 3 and I died very much. Game 3, his Atog ate all his stuff around turn 5 and was promptly bounced by Venser, Shaper Savant.
The deck could be competitive but definitely needs some serious work.
Honestly all of the combo decks should be pretty easy since we are running blue. Infect is easily dealt with by path, but make sure that you use it on their turn so they cannot use pact of negation.
My worst matchup is 12post so far, and I believe that it is the only deck that I do worse than 50/50.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thanks for the input. Torpor Orb could be good tech for twin but the catch-all seems to be Night of Souls' Betrayl. Splashing for double black out of the sideboard could be rough...
...back to the drawing board.
Thanks for the input. Torpor Orb could be good tech for twin but the catch-all seems to be Night of Souls' Betrayl. Splashing for double black out of the sideboard could be rough...
...back to the drawing board.
that's way too expensive. phyrexian revoker, pithing needle are your best bets. Also remember that you have counterspells and you should have vendilion clique.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Honestly all of the combo decks should be pretty easy since we are running blue. Infect is easily dealt with by path, but make sure that you use it on their turn so they cannot use pact of negation.
My worst matchup is 12post so far, and I believe that it is the only deck that I do worse than 50/50.
I don't play PtE which might explain my difficulty with Infect. Pyro Ascension is not difficult but (perhaps because I don't run Path) I do find Twin to be difficult if they play 8 counters.
that's way too expensive. phyrexian revoker, pithing needle are your best bets. Also remember that you have counterspells and you should have vendilion clique.
I agree that it's too expensive; I actually should have included that in my post. I run Pithing Needle main but only run Cryptic Command as a counter maindeck. A white splash might actually be nice and would open up Meddling Mage and Wrath of God in the sideboard...
RE:infectious baloth, I feel your deck has too many kinks. Your SB Blood Moons will hurt your chances of casting Cryptic Command as you have few basics, you're playing a lot of very underwhelming artifacts that can't warrant slots (especially not as bullets, because they are the sort of card that you'll be very unhappy to draw into as your one-of,) and your curve is awkward.
I've been messing with the idea of Tezzerator because the format is only combo and aggro... with the lack of Sword of the Meek, it is a much weaker deck, but I find that in spite of that fact you still have a great aggro matchup, and your combo matchup should be cake once you get the list to be ideal. Here's something I've cooked up that isn't anywhere near ideal:
The first thing you might notice is the lack of graveyard disruption. With Dredge being practically dead, and Dredgevine strategies being suboptimal in the field, the only graveyard based decks to watch out for are Living End, which cannot really get a leg up in this format anyway. Nonetheless, we have lots of hate for the deck anyway, so any slot used on Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt is a waste.
The next thing you'll notice is that I choose to run slower, more broad answers in the form of counterspells. While having four Negate and two Voidslime in my 75 could be considered slow in a field of turn two and three combo decks, that is the inherent risk you have to take with control. You cannot afford to hate against one deck with say, Spell Pierce, and then lose to BreachPost because they can pay out of it anyway. I feel Negate is the best counterspell to use when you don't have to worry about creatures, so that gets the nod here.
Mindbreak Trap in the board is just an obvious inclusion, however I don't know if all four are warranted, one cannot argue that they are ever dead in the matchups you want them in.
The issue with Tezzerator now is that you have so many fast decks that are all as capable as Elves was then, so it is harder to keep up with all of them in their variety and keep a consistent suite of instant speed answers. I feel that without Ancestral Visions, a Thirst deck is the most capable of being "the" control deck in Modern, you just have to prepare for the right beast to battle with.
Is there any reason to not run Goyf in these lists that splash Green? Goyf + Clique seems to be the best way to go in terms of mounting pressure on an opponent in a control deck.
The issue with Tarmogoyf is that the deck is chock full of things needed against multiple archetypes that are tutored for in the right context. If you try to expend any slots on goyf, the rest of the deck loses what gives it merit. :/
He would be a good way to end games though, if Tezzeret doesn't get the job done (which he usually does.)
Is Trickbind not a decent sideboard card against any of our bad match ups?
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Originally posted by Deimosfobos
BTW... what a silly question, I guess I should go to Ux control forum and ask: How come Mana Leak has a place in Ux control?
Trickbind is sort of a catch-all against Storm and can get around Twin's counters which is desirable, however the deck has multiple ways to interact with Twin (they're cold to Torpor Orb/Spellskite for the most part,) and Mindbreak Trap is great against Storm and also can shut down Ascension by exiling multiple Manamorphose from the stack when they drain their mana or other shenanigans. :3
Anyone considered Surge Node? It allows you to use Tezzeret to fetch Chalice or Explosives for more than 0.
It could have been more broken if I am understanding how Chalice of the Void works. If it triggered whenever a spell was played, and then checked the mana cost, you could actually jack up the charge to counter a particularly pesky spell.
Also, Myr Superion can be fetched easily with Tezzeret for a big beater. It is just an idea, I can see that this might not work out, but I figure a singleton, maybe even in the sideboard could work. You can just toss it to Thirst for Knowledge if you draw it. Elixer of Immortality will put it back in the library if you need it later.
RE:infectious baloth, I feel your deck has too many kinks. Your SB Blood Moons will hurt your chances of casting Cryptic Command as you have few basics, you're playing a lot of very underwhelming artifacts that can't warrant slots (especially not as bullets, because they are the sort of card that you'll be very unhappy to draw into as your one-of,) and your curve is awkward.
I've been messing with the idea of Tezzerator because the format is only combo and aggro... with the lack of Sword of the Meek, it is a much weaker deck, but I find that in spite of that fact you still have a great aggro matchup, and your combo matchup should be cake once you get the list to be ideal. Here's something I've cooked up that isn't anywhere near ideal:
The first thing you might notice is the lack of graveyard disruption. With Dredge being practically dead, and Dredgevine strategies being suboptimal in the field, the only graveyard based decks to watch out for are Living End, which cannot really get a leg up in this format anyway. Nonetheless, we have lots of hate for the deck anyway, so any slot used on Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt is a waste.
The next thing you'll notice is that I choose to run slower, more broad answers in the form of counterspells. While having four Negate and two Voidslime in my 75 could be considered slow in a field of turn two and three combo decks, that is the inherent risk you have to take with control. You cannot afford to hate against one deck with say, Spell Pierce, and then lose to BreachPost because they can pay out of it anyway. I feel Negate is the best counterspell to use when you don't have to worry about creatures, so that gets the nod here.
Mindbreak Trap in the board is just an obvious inclusion, however I don't know if all four are warranted, one cannot argue that they are ever dead in the matchups you want them in.
The issue with Tezzerator now is that you have so many fast decks that are all as capable as Elves was then, so it is harder to keep up with all of them in their variety and keep a consistent suite of instant speed answers. I feel that without Ancestral Visions, a Thirst deck is the most capable of being "the" control deck in Modern, you just have to prepare for the right beast to battle with.
Re: Your critique of my splash-W list:
I appreciate the critique; do keep in mind that I was making an arbitrary white splash simply in order to build a sample list including PtE.
Re: Your list:
The first point I'd like to raise is that graveyard hate is still relevant. A one-of Relic of Progenitus is great against Tarmogoyf, Pyromancer Ascension, Goryo's Vengeance (some people do actually run it), and Melira combo. So a single slot to disrupt Pyromancer Ascension, Goryo's Vengeance and Melira/persist is certainly not a waste. (This is to say nothing of the recently spoiled Snapcaster Mage which Patrick Chapin wrote an entire, very compelling article about just today.)
I do agree with many of your choices (particularly the increased number of EE mainboard) and your increased countermagic.
I would like to understand the choices to run Elixir of Immortality and run a reduced number of Tezzeret, the Seeker in greater depth.
Additionally, I do not feel that a "Tolaria West" package is a wise decision in this type of metagame as it is very slow. I would almost certainly cut the one-of Tolaria West along with the Ghost Quarters and Tectonic Edge. This would let you run more Darksteel Citadel, making Thirst for Knowledge more effective; increasing the effectiveness of the deck overall.
Trinisphere is a very interesting choice and I would like to understand it a bit better, I do agree that it could be very good for a metagame like this (particularly against zoo and storm combo).
What is your opinion of Aether and Pyrite spellbomb? I've been running them in all my lists to great success; AEther spellbomb often buying me a critical turn against TwelvePost (effectively countering Emrakul) or bouncing a Gaddock Teeg (which lets me drop a chalice the following turn) and Pyrite Spellbomb performing less effectively, taking out a Goblin Guide, Kitchen Finks or Gaddock Teeg or letting me get the last few points of damage in when used with Academy Ruins. Have you tested with them? If you have, I'd like to know what some of your results were when testing with them. If not, I suggest at least trying them.
Have you considered Venser, Shaper Savant? He is one of the few things that can "counter" Emrakul and Banefire and often buys a lot of time against other decks. He has been one 'spell' that I've consistently wanted.
Given the recent surge in MTGO results for this deck, I've moved it out of Modern General.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Honestly the deck is better without Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas. You just got to find a way to make thirst work.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
statistically you need around 12 artifacts to make thirst work. Also 4 darksteel citadel is a bit much as it will cause you to get color-screwed.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
So would I be correct in believing that something like Torpor Orb and Ensnaring Bridge when used together could actually slow down an eldrazi titan from 12-post? If so I think I actually like this deck a lot more, as the two cards help slow down zoo and splinter twin a lot also...with spellskite protecting the engine and your life total from a Banefire with Pyromancer's Ascension on the board. I would just have to find a proper build of this deck to tackle the bigger names though.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Really looking into playing this as its a nice break-in-point for Control into the Modern format.
Bit annoyed at the prices though. Would it be possible to run say the split lands from ISD, M11/12 and/or lands Shadowmore in place of the rather pricey shocklands?
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I'm brainstorming a list that'll run the Blightsteel Collosus/ Kuldotha Forgemaster
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
Because he sucks. Also forgemaster combo is way slow. A lot of players consider it too slow for competitive standard...and this format is a turn 2-4 format.(sometimes 1)
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Cards I saw in 3 games (with no sideboard, but I spoke to the kid and got his board) :
Shackles
Expedition Map
Ensnaring Bridge
Clique
Trinket Mage
Engineered Explosives
Thirst for Knowledge
Spell Snare
Condescend
Cryptic Command
Punishing Fire
Pyrite Spellbomb
Aether Spellbomb
Pithing Needle
Tezzeret the Seeker
Misty Rainforest
Miren, the Moaning Well
Academy Ruins
Grove of the Burnwillows
Steam Vents
Scalding Tarn
Islands (duh)
Darksteel Citadel
Board:
Elixir of Immortality
Tormod's Crypt
Relic or Progenitus
Ancient Grudge x3
Blood Moon x3
Firespout x2
Trickbind x3
Crucible of Worlds
I was running a Birthing Pod deck. Match went to 3 games (with no sideboard for testing purposes) but he got me. I'm convinced I want to play this deck but can it actually be competitive at larger tournaments?
I'll find some more to talk about in a bit but my main comment is I feel like 4 Cryptic Command might be too much.
Twin is very dependent on getting a Pithing Needle (or two) or a chalice (at 3) as fast as possible; not very good.
Infect is just god-awful. I'm VERY strongly considering how to sideboard for the match but it is a very difficult matchup for this deck.
I've only played ONE match against affinity (went to 3 games) and in game 1, I got a turn 2 Shackles that stole his Atog on turn 3 and he never drew enough business spells for anything to matter; game 2 he flung his Atog at me on turn 3 and I died very much. Game 3, his Atog ate all his stuff around turn 5 and was promptly bounced by Venser, Shaper Savant.
The deck could be competitive but definitely needs some serious work.
Some thoughts on sideboarding:
The hate cards for Twin seem to be Torpor Orb and Night of Souls Betrayal. For Infect combo, Darkblast, Ghost Quarter, and Night of Souls Betrayal seem to really put the screws in. Gut Shot might work as well.
My worst matchup is 12post so far, and I believe that it is the only deck that I do worse than 50/50.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Thanks for the input. Torpor Orb could be good tech for twin but the catch-all seems to be Night of Souls' Betrayl. Splashing for double black out of the sideboard could be rough...
...back to the drawing board.
that's way too expensive. phyrexian revoker, pithing needle are your best bets. Also remember that you have counterspells and you should have vendilion clique.
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Thomas Jefferson
I don't play PtE which might explain my difficulty with Infect. Pyro Ascension is not difficult but (perhaps because I don't run Path) I do find Twin to be difficult if they play 8 counters.
I agree that it's too expensive; I actually should have included that in my post. I run Pithing Needle main but only run Cryptic Command as a counter maindeck. A white splash might actually be nice and would open up Meddling Mage and Wrath of God in the sideboard...
Something like:
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
4 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Path to Exile
3 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Talisman of Progress
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Mox Opal
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Academy Ruins
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Blood Moon
4 Firespout
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Meddling Mage
The sideboard was randomly thrown together but I feel the maindeck has some strength.
I've been messing with the idea of Tezzerator because the format is only combo and aggro... with the lack of Sword of the Meek, it is a much weaker deck, but I find that in spite of that fact you still have a great aggro matchup, and your combo matchup should be cake once you get the list to be ideal. Here's something I've cooked up that isn't anywhere near ideal:
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Spellskite
2x Tezzeret the Seeker
3x Cryptic Command
2x Negate
2x Voidslime
3x Path to Exile
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Mox Opal
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Vedalken Shackles
1x Pithing Needle
1x Trinisphere
1x AEther Spellbomb
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Steam Vents
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
1x Tectonic Edge
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tolaria West
10x Island
4x Mindbreak Trap
2x Negate
2x Threads of Disloyalty
4x Firespout
2x Spellskite
1x Torpor Orb
(any criticism is greatly appreciated)
The first thing you might notice is the lack of graveyard disruption. With Dredge being practically dead, and Dredgevine strategies being suboptimal in the field, the only graveyard based decks to watch out for are Living End, which cannot really get a leg up in this format anyway. Nonetheless, we have lots of hate for the deck anyway, so any slot used on Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt is a waste.
The next thing you'll notice is that I choose to run slower, more broad answers in the form of counterspells. While having four Negate and two Voidslime in my 75 could be considered slow in a field of turn two and three combo decks, that is the inherent risk you have to take with control. You cannot afford to hate against one deck with say, Spell Pierce, and then lose to BreachPost because they can pay out of it anyway. I feel Negate is the best counterspell to use when you don't have to worry about creatures, so that gets the nod here.
Mindbreak Trap in the board is just an obvious inclusion, however I don't know if all four are warranted, one cannot argue that they are ever dead in the matchups you want them in.
The issue with Tezzerator now is that you have so many fast decks that are all as capable as Elves was then, so it is harder to keep up with all of them in their variety and keep a consistent suite of instant speed answers. I feel that without Ancestral Visions, a Thirst deck is the most capable of being "the" control deck in Modern, you just have to prepare for the right beast to battle with.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
He would be a good way to end games though, if Tezzeret doesn't get the job done (which he usually does.)
It could have been more broken if I am understanding how Chalice of the Void works. If it triggered whenever a spell was played, and then checked the mana cost, you could actually jack up the charge to counter a particularly pesky spell.
Also, Myr Superion can be fetched easily with Tezzeret for a big beater. It is just an idea, I can see that this might not work out, but I figure a singleton, maybe even in the sideboard could work. You can just toss it to Thirst for Knowledge if you draw it. Elixer of Immortality will put it back in the library if you need it later.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Re: Your critique of my splash-W list:
I appreciate the critique; do keep in mind that I was making an arbitrary white splash simply in order to build a sample list including PtE.
Re: Your list:
The first point I'd like to raise is that graveyard hate is still relevant. A one-of Relic of Progenitus is great against Tarmogoyf, Pyromancer Ascension, Goryo's Vengeance (some people do actually run it), and Melira combo. So a single slot to disrupt Pyromancer Ascension, Goryo's Vengeance and Melira/persist is certainly not a waste. (This is to say nothing of the recently spoiled Snapcaster Mage which Patrick Chapin wrote an entire, very compelling article about just today.)
I do agree with many of your choices (particularly the increased number of EE mainboard) and your increased countermagic.
I would like to understand the choices to run Elixir of Immortality and run a reduced number of Tezzeret, the Seeker in greater depth.
Additionally, I do not feel that a "Tolaria West" package is a wise decision in this type of metagame as it is very slow. I would almost certainly cut the one-of Tolaria West along with the Ghost Quarters and Tectonic Edge. This would let you run more Darksteel Citadel, making Thirst for Knowledge more effective; increasing the effectiveness of the deck overall.
Trinisphere is a very interesting choice and I would like to understand it a bit better, I do agree that it could be very good for a metagame like this (particularly against zoo and storm combo).
What is your opinion of Aether and Pyrite spellbomb? I've been running them in all my lists to great success; AEther spellbomb often buying me a critical turn against TwelvePost (effectively countering Emrakul) or bouncing a Gaddock Teeg (which lets me drop a chalice the following turn) and Pyrite Spellbomb performing less effectively, taking out a Goblin Guide, Kitchen Finks or Gaddock Teeg or letting me get the last few points of damage in when used with Academy Ruins. Have you tested with them? If you have, I'd like to know what some of your results were when testing with them. If not, I suggest at least trying them.
Have you considered Venser, Shaper Savant? He is one of the few things that can "counter" Emrakul and Banefire and often buys a lot of time against other decks. He has been one 'spell' that I've consistently wanted.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Academy Ruins
seems like a good start...
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I haven't had that experience.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Bit annoyed at the prices though. Would it be possible to run say the split lands from ISD, M11/12 and/or lands Shadowmore in place of the rather pricey shocklands?