Isochron Scepter, like a number of other casual auto-win cards, seems great on paper, but competitively faces a lot of trouble to work properly (at least, in my experience). Packing 1-2 of it of the deck helps a lot on a number of situations. Generaly speaking: to win control-on-control matchups or against non-abrupt midrange decks (and let's face it... jund is everywhere). And, if you manage to survive an early rush against aggro, scepter with the right spell can win.
But getting your whole strategy about the card, and packing the whole 4-of it seems a bit too much.
I like scepter and I have a modern scepter deck that does alright and could probably be tuned to be much better. However, I don't really like in a tezzerator deck because the two cards both require a fair amount of support, serve a similar purpose and you miss out on a lot of the best scepter targets. Even as a one of it is still kind of clunky since you don't have too many targets for it and you don't really want to draw it.
As for scepter being a 2 for 1 it rarely is since you usually play it with 4 mana open so you get the spell at least one activation off of it. Needle is scary but if they drop it before you drop scepter you can just not cast scepter if they do it after you should've gotten at least one spell off it. If you know your meta game it can be worth it to drop it turn 2 game 1 since not every deck has main deck answers to it and it can win the game all by itself.
SO I posted my UB Tezz deck separately because although it plays Tezz, it is a totally different deck. Here is the list but if it is too different I can keep it too my thread.
Most Tezzeret the Seeker lists are basically blue, with splashing of other colors for Engineered Explosives, Blood Moon, and SB cards. A lot people (myself included) have splashed red and white together, though your statement of "all the staples of UWR Control with..." is somewhat vague.
That sounds like a lot of cards. If you want to play something like the standard 2-3 Tezzeret, 3-4 Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, and all of the artifacts that normally come with it, you're talking about something like 12-20 cards, depending on how deep you go. You also need to consider a high island count for Shackles, and the various colorless lands that help out the Tezzeret strategy, e.g. Academy Ruins, Darksteel Citadel, and Miren, the Moaning Well. What does your list look like? How are you assembling these cards? What are you cutting from UWR Control to fit in these cards, and what does the manabase look like?
Decided to try out a more walker heavy suite followed by the silver bullets of Tezzeret. Definitely needs some more testing and some changes (Pyro spellbomb is likely just a relic of the old deck and should be replaced.)
Sideboard is still the older version with Gifts and some new removal (Abrupt and Pulse). Think I might just remove the Norn/Rites package (I do love the Mindslaver Gifts) so that I can drop some Hallowed Fountains and put in the last Watery Grave and Breeding Pool for Deathrite.
So far I've only tested against UWR Geist and it has been going pretty well. Sorin is great for hiding behind a bridge, and T2 Ashiok / Liliana feels great.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Not to be a pain in the rear curmudgeon, but is it really worth playing all of these silver bullets and 1 TtS, and no Trinket Mage? To me, is Sorin really better than a 3rd Tezzeret? Is he playable at all? Why not just take on an extra mana and play Karn? You have to have all of your Watery Graves in play to cast him!
Not to be a pain in the rear curmudgeon, but is it really worth playing all of these silver bullets and 1 TtS, and no Trinket Mage? To me, is Sorin really better than a 3rd Tezzeret? Is he playable at all? Why not just take on an extra mana and play Karn? You have to have all of your Watery Graves in play to cast him!
It really wasn't worth it. Trinket Mage I can live without since the only thing I'd fetch are Needle / Cage / Relic, but I am definitely going to be bumping up Seekers. Agent of Bolas let me win once off a 5/5 Spellskite but other than that , every other time I was wishing he was another Seeker.
Sorin was for fun, and the man is great behind a bridge. Sniping critters (mainly opposing Deathrites) and gaining life can be extremely helpful, that said I think Karn may be better. I had no problem getting to the 3 Watery Graves but that meant I was fetching for them and not additional colors for any explosives I may have needed. What I was looking for was another walker who could actually win a game straight up behind a bridge, and while Sorin can do it, the triple black was not smooth.
Moving forward I do like the rest of the deck and will stick with it for now making these changes:
- 1 Tezz, Agent
- 1 Pyrite Spellbomb
- 1 Sorin Markov (Might try him out one more time)
+1 Tezz, Seeker
+1 Spellskite
+1 Karn
Edit:
Thinking about it though, maybe someone like Jace, Memory Adept would do better for sitting behind a bridge? He wins in 6 turns at the worst assuming they shuffled everything back in, and can help to draw answers if needed, along with being much easier to cast since everything other than Academy Ruins is a blue source. Maybe not though because Eldrazi are a thing.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I thought I had this deck figured out, and that I totally understood (most of) of the weird interactions and subtleties, but someone on The Source pointed out that with a Bridge and a Seeker in play, if you play Miren, the Moaning Well, you can ultimate Tezzeret and sac your Bridge to Miren to kill them. I was already a staunch supporter of including the land, but now it seems like a must. Maybe I was the only one who missed this, however!
I thought I had this deck figured out, and that I totally understood (most of) of the weird interactions and subtleties, but someone on The Source pointed out that with a Bridge and a Seeker in play, if you play Miren, the Moaning Well, you can ultimate Tezzeret and sac your Bridge to Miren to kill them. I was already a staunch supporter of including the land, but now it seems like a must. Maybe I was the only one who missed this, however!
That changes things. Always wondered how to make it past your own bridge without making yourself vulnerable. Need to pick up a Miren or 2 now.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
Just received the cards today!
I builded that amazing deck, was waiting this moment for week, and got beated to death by UWR, I was so sad...
The deck seemed so slow, but i think saw the potential. Is TonyRo's list still up to date? is there any development?
Thx Guys, i wont let down Tezzy.
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I'm french canadian, english is not my mother tongue, please forgive any mistakes.
BRW
''Know thy self, know thy enemy. A thousand battles, a thousand victories.''
Am I the only one having success with Tezzerator against UWR Control? I just beat it against an 8-Man - it looked like Shahar Shenhar's most recent list.
Miren is far better with things like Shackles and Spellskite (even Trinket Mage) though. I can't think of many artifacts in the Tezzeretor lists I'd be happy tossing away for a mana, just for fun.
You think so? I have been running Batterskull in testing for a while, and the problem is that you lose colossal amounts of time if they:
1. Have the Maelstrom Pulse.
2. Can kill the germ.
You generate zero value and negative tempo. With the Thragtusk, it's an automatic two-for-one against Jund's removal suite, and you get a lot of the value upfront.
Sideboarded games against Jund where you don't stick a Blood Moon and immediately win tend to be very long, grindy affairs. You have removal, they have removal and discard, they have threats, you have answers. What you really want is to ensure that in those games, your deck is as value-packed and threat dense to win these grindfests. It feels to me like Thragtusk is much better at that than Batterskull, but I could be wrong - I'd need to test them both in a bunch of games.
And as far as I'm concerned, if you can make the artifact part relevant, i.e. by tutoring it up with Tezzeret, then you're likely way ahead anyway. Not sure being an artifact is actually that relevant, except for with Ruins I guess.
Batterskull could be better, but I'm not certain I can write off Thragtusk right away, which is why I'd asked if anyone had actually tested the card in Tezzerator against Jund.
PS - There is some precedent for this - the list is obviously not the same, but this is interesting nonetheless:
It's also worth noting that Jund is very likely to bring in multiple copies of Ancient Grudge against us, so it makes sense to have strong SB cards that aren't artifacts!
You think so? I have been running Batterskull in testing for a while, and the problem is that you lose colossal amounts of time if they:
1. Have the Maelstrom Pulse.
2. Can kill the germ.
You generate zero value and negative tempo. With the Thragtusk, it's an automatic two-for-one against Jund's removal suite, and you get a lot of the value upfront.
Sideboarded games against Jund where you don't stick a Blood Moon and immediately win tend to be very long, grindy affairs. You have removal, they have removal and discard, they have threats, you have answers. What you really want is to ensure that in those games, your deck is as value-packed and threat dense to win these grindfests. It feels to me like Thragtusk is much better at that than Batterskull, but I could be wrong - I'd need to test them both in a bunch of games.
And as far as I'm concerned, if you can make the artifact part relevant, i.e. by tutoring it up with Tezzeret, then you're likely way ahead anyway. Not sure being an artifact is actually that relevant, except for with Ruins I guess.
Batterskull could be better, but I'm not certain I can write off Thragtusk right away, which is why I'd asked if anyone had actually tested the card in Tezzerator against Jund.
PS - There is some precedent for this - the list is obviously not the same, but this is interesting nonetheless:
Im not sure how many people are actually playing green. Either way, If they kill th germ you bounce it to your hand, if they try to kill batterskull you bounce it to your hand if you have mana open. Id rather run wurmcoil over thragtusk, having an artifact as a wincon is probably a good idea.
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"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not." - John Lennon
Wurmcoil Engine is obviously very good - my only objection would be that it's one mana more expensive than Thragtusk, and they can reduce it down to a 3/3 Lifelink or Deathtouch (you get whichever is worse for you) with a single Ancient Grudge without you obtaining any value. I notice that Jund players are also packing Shatterstorm now, which is obviously very good at clearing away the tokens.
Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine are obviously good against Jund - what's different with Tezzerator is that they're obviously already bringing in things like Ancient Grudge, Shatterstorm, more Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, even Deglamer against you. It's logical to bring in some strong SB cards that actually dodge these cards instead of run right into them. I don't know if Thragtusk is objectively better, I'll only know once I get to testing. I also like the Tusk quite a bit against Burn, which is not the best matchup in the world in my opinion.
Wurmcoil Engine is obviously very good - my only objection would be that it's one mana more expensive than Thragtusk, and they can reduce it down to a 3/3 Lifelink or Deathtouch (you get whichever is worse for you) with a single Ancient Grudge without you obtaining any value. I notice that Jund players are also packing Shatterstorm now, which is obviously very good at clearing away the tokens.
Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine are obviously good against Jund - what's different with Tezzerator is that they're obviously already bringing in things like Ancient Grudge, Shatterstorm, more Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, even Deglamer against you. It's logical to bring in some strong SB cards that actually dodge these cards instead of run right into them. I don't know if Thragtusk is objectively better, I'll only know once I get to testing. I also like the Tusk quite a bit against Burn, which is not the best matchup in the world in my opinion.
While it may not help your burn match up as much, what about Molten-Tail Masticore? Get's tutored immediately with Tezzeret, dodges everything but path and deglamer with regenerate, and can shoot dead trinket mages and spellskites for removal/burn.
I personally haven't tested it (just recently started building Tezzerator) but it seems like a viable option.
With the Gifts package my favorite card to bring in against Jund is Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Other than a Liliana (assuming you have no other creatures on board) they have no answer to it. It blocks everything, gains life, goes on the offensive while staying on d, and it's an artifact that you could eventually tutor out. (It happens sometimes.)
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I think in general Batterskull is good, but I don't totally get why people want to bring it in vs. Jund when you know you're facing ~2 Maelstrom Pulse, 2-3 Ancient Grudge, and 0-2 Creeping Corrosions or Shatterstorms.
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But getting your whole strategy about the card, and packing the whole 4-of it seems a bit too much.
By the way, is it the right thread to discuss Tezzerator also withTezzeret, Agent of Bolas?
As for scepter being a 2 for 1 it rarely is since you usually play it with 4 mana open so you get the spell at least one activation off of it. Needle is scary but if they drop it before you drop scepter you can just not cast scepter if they do it after you should've gotten at least one spell off it. If you know your meta game it can be worth it to drop it turn 2 game 1 since not every deck has main deck answers to it and it can win the game all by itself.
whats its matchup like against BGx/jund and against pod? How does it fare against UWR control?
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Buried Ruins
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Mox Opal
4 Dimir Signet
4 Trinket Mage
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Damnation
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Executioner's Capsule
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Spellskite
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Batterskull
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
That sounds like a lot of cards. If you want to play something like the standard 2-3 Tezzeret, 3-4 Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge, and all of the artifacts that normally come with it, you're talking about something like 12-20 cards, depending on how deep you go. You also need to consider a high island count for Shackles, and the various colorless lands that help out the Tezzeret strategy, e.g. Academy Ruins, Darksteel Citadel, and Miren, the Moaning Well. What does your list look like? How are you assembling these cards? What are you cutting from UWR Control to fit in these cards, and what does the manabase look like?
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4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Spellskite
Planeswalkers
3 Ashiok, Nightmare Weave
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Sorin Markov
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Relic of Progentius
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Torpor Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Watery Grave
3 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
2 Academy Ruins
4 Island
Sideboard is still the older version with Gifts and some new removal (Abrupt and Pulse). Think I might just remove the Norn/Rites package (I do love the Mindslaver Gifts) so that I can drop some Hallowed Fountains and put in the last Watery Grave and Breeding Pool for Deathrite.
So far I've only tested against UWR Geist and it has been going pretty well. Sorin is great for hiding behind a bridge, and T2 Ashiok / Liliana feels great.
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He discusses it here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=11019021&postcount=167
List:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Pithing Needle
4 Spellskite
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Talisman of Dominance
1 Mox Opal
1 Welding Jar
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Torpor Orb
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Marsh Flats
3 Watery Grave
1 Underground River
1 Darkslick Shores
4 River of Tears
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Inkmoth Nexus
1 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Academy Ruins
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Disfigure
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Pristine Talisman
1 Torpor Orb
1 Executioner's Capsule
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Welding Jar
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
It really wasn't worth it. Trinket Mage I can live without since the only thing I'd fetch are Needle / Cage / Relic, but I am definitely going to be bumping up Seekers. Agent of Bolas let me win once off a 5/5 Spellskite but other than that , every other time I was wishing he was another Seeker.
Sorin was for fun, and the man is great behind a bridge. Sniping critters (mainly opposing Deathrites) and gaining life can be extremely helpful, that said I think Karn may be better. I had no problem getting to the 3 Watery Graves but that meant I was fetching for them and not additional colors for any explosives I may have needed. What I was looking for was another walker who could actually win a game straight up behind a bridge, and while Sorin can do it, the triple black was not smooth.
Moving forward I do like the rest of the deck and will stick with it for now making these changes:
- 1 Tezz, Agent
- 1 Pyrite Spellbomb
- 1 Sorin Markov (Might try him out one more time)
+1 Tezz, Seeker
+1 Spellskite
+1 Karn
Edit:
Thinking about it though, maybe someone like Jace, Memory Adept would do better for sitting behind a bridge? He wins in 6 turns at the worst assuming they shuffled everything back in, and can help to draw answers if needed, along with being much easier to cast since everything other than Academy Ruins is a blue source. Maybe not though because Eldrazi are a thing.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
That changes things. Always wondered how to make it past your own bridge without making yourself vulnerable. Need to pick up a Miren or 2 now.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
I builded that amazing deck, was waiting this moment for week, and got beated to death by UWR, I was so sad...
The deck seemed so slow, but i think saw the potential. Is TonyRo's list still up to date? is there any development?
Thx Guys, i wont let down Tezzy.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
You're better off running Batterskull. It is harder to remove and furthers the artifact strategy.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
1. Have the Maelstrom Pulse.
2. Can kill the germ.
You generate zero value and negative tempo. With the Thragtusk, it's an automatic two-for-one against Jund's removal suite, and you get a lot of the value upfront.
Sideboarded games against Jund where you don't stick a Blood Moon and immediately win tend to be very long, grindy affairs. You have removal, they have removal and discard, they have threats, you have answers. What you really want is to ensure that in those games, your deck is as value-packed and threat dense to win these grindfests. It feels to me like Thragtusk is much better at that than Batterskull, but I could be wrong - I'd need to test them both in a bunch of games.
And as far as I'm concerned, if you can make the artifact part relevant, i.e. by tutoring it up with Tezzeret, then you're likely way ahead anyway. Not sure being an artifact is actually that relevant, except for with Ruins I guess.
Batterskull could be better, but I'm not certain I can write off Thragtusk right away, which is why I'd asked if anyone had actually tested the card in Tezzerator against Jund.
PS - There is some precedent for this - the list is obviously not the same, but this is interesting nonetheless:
Reid Duke's RUG Shackles/Moon from GP:SD
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Im not sure how many people are actually playing green. Either way, If they kill th germ you bounce it to your hand, if they try to kill batterskull you bounce it to your hand if you have mana open. Id rather run wurmcoil over thragtusk, having an artifact as a wincon is probably a good idea.
Batterskull and Wurmcoil Engine are obviously good against Jund - what's different with Tezzerator is that they're obviously already bringing in things like Ancient Grudge, Shatterstorm, more Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, even Deglamer against you. It's logical to bring in some strong SB cards that actually dodge these cards instead of run right into them. I don't know if Thragtusk is objectively better, I'll only know once I get to testing. I also like the Tusk quite a bit against Burn, which is not the best matchup in the world in my opinion.
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While it may not help your burn match up as much, what about Molten-Tail Masticore? Get's tutored immediately with Tezzeret, dodges everything but path and deglamer with regenerate, and can shoot dead trinket mages and spellskites for removal/burn.
I personally haven't tested it (just recently started building Tezzerator) but it seems like a viable option.
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