This deck seems really interesting, but what advantage does it have over Scapeshift? It seems like the same goal (Ramp into your win con and cast it), but shift wins the game on the spot.
This deck seems really interesting, but what advantage does it have over Scapeshift? It seems like the same goal (Ramp into your win con and cast it), but shift wins the game on the spot.
The difference between Ideal and shift is that Ideal can operate as a Pillow-Fort deck- enchantment control, albiet with dodgier draws than a dedicated deck. It is thus much less vulnerable than Scapeshift to aggressive metas- you can beat an affinity deck more often than not on the play with a t2 sup field, t3 ghostly or unlife and t4 play. You can also beat it on the draw sometimes in similar fashion. Burn is a bye often. T0 Leyline, T2 S field, T3 unlife or Ghostly sets them back a long way, and that is without playing cards such as faith's fetters. The weakness compared to Scapeshift is tron- you need to race it and can't game 1 very often. Scapeshift is a more rounded less binary deck, inherently smoother, and is more consistent in a vacuum. Both decks have a weakish plan B (decking and R/U control). We also get good to great combo matches in the right build- unlife is unbeatable game 1 by ad nauseam (we can beat theirs once EI resolves). Cards like nevermore, leyline and protective cards like greater auramancy really make Scapeshift's day hard, ditto grisselbrand-shoal decks don't take too kindly to either unlife, suppression field or leyline. Ditto Storm plus Leyline game one is soon game 2.
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I always run GQs for that reason. To be honest even with 3 and a ton of board hate like Stony and Spreading Seas the Tron match is very, very hard. But GQ has value in other matches anyway, taking out specialised lands and potentially allowing repeated landkill with Mistveil plains to put them back if for some reason a defensive lock can be formed but a win cannot be established, as happens vs Martyr Proc game one sometimes (incidentally that is their plan b too).
I always used to run negate side, mixed with condescend. Neither are ideal, pun intended.
Both do a Jo but for my money they are not irreplaceable.
I want to try Silence tech. Not sure how it went or what besides ref blue x decks it came in for...
I want to read a report on the recent list. We had one on the recent landkill list on our rw primer and often you can see why a deck won from reports. EI lists are very binary, rubbish matches and almost un-losable ones, and often it is not specific tech that wins matches, it is instead the matchups, together with the skill of the pilot of course. The original list looked pretty standard bar one or two bits, so I would wager he played it really well and got good matchups.
I have already been talking about chalice this morning in another context. I think it is a good card for Ideal decks. Map I dislike in Ideal anyway. I would rather filter all my draws than add just manabase and silver bullet land tutoring. I like to run two d sphere and one faith's fetters main. Sphere can indeed take out tokens, and even your own bridges if you decide to run Starfield of Nyx as some do. D sphere adds much needed flexibility to the deck. When fetched via Ideal it can deal with hexproofers, which is great v boggles, but then so is Runed Halo.
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ello, So I just finished my first list and played in last night's fnm. I only had 3 practice games before fnm started I did however have a 3-2 night so I am proud of myself for that. Here is my list please help me tune this.
3 ensnaring bridge
1 dovescape
1 form of the dragon
4 ghostly prison
2 greater auramancy
4 leyline of sanctity
1 o ring
1 peace of mind (didn't actually have it so I ran a blind obedience in its place)
1 phyrexian unlife
2 porphyry nodes
4 runed halo
2 sphere of safety
4 suppression field
I lost to burn round one(0-2). (Had to mul to 3 game one).
Round two (0-2)I lost to RWB delver. Game 2 I got robbed. He had one copy of cyclonic Rift in his board and he topped deck it at the right time.
Round 3 I won vs stompy.(2-1) game two I lock his whole board with halos and top decks a strangle root for the win.
Round 4 I won vs 8 rack.(2-0) I was lucky enough to have leyline in my hand both games.finished game 3 with 14 1/1 bird tokens fromantic dovescape
Round 5 I beat aura hexproof (2-0). With such small creature base runed halo really hurt this deck. He got me to 2 life on game one but a topped decked phyrexian unlife just when I needed it.
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Now as for my list I feel I really want to splash either blue or red.
Burn is good, whatever Ideal deck you play it will have Halo and Leylines, which is enough.
Suppression field is excellent in many matches, hitting Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam, cycling in Living End, ten fetches/Lavamancers in burn, Viscera Seer, Pridemages and Vials in hatebears, or Kiki in chord decks, Pendelhaven and Nexus in infect (plus fetches), Grisselbrand in reanimator, lating and manlands in Affinity. Allied with Ghostly prison it is a lot for some decks to handle.
Suppression field is one of the best t2 plays the deck can make.
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Burn is good, whatever Ideal deck you play it will have Halo and Leylines, which is enough.
Suppression field is excellent in many matches, hitting Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam, cycling in Living End, ten fetches/Lavamancers in burn, Viscera Seer, Pridemages and Vials in hatebears, or Kiki in chord decks, Pendelhaven and Nexus in infect (plus fetches), Grisselbrand in reanimator, lating and manlands in Affinity. Allied with Ghostly prison it is a lot for some decks to handle.
Suppression field is one of the best t2 plays the deck can make.
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Nodes is bad without Heliod, the whole point is being able to "lock". Runed halo I presume is a 4 of, so after that...either ensnaring bridge type cards or more o rings.
Remember there are different eldrazi archetypes now....hard to test against them all at the moment- so much variation in the lists.
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Nodes is bad without Heliod, the whole point is being able to "lock". Runed halo I presume is a 4 of, so after that...either ensnaring bridge type cards or more o rings.
Remember there are different eldrazi archetypes now....hard to test against them all at the moment- so much variation in the lists.
I have been enjoying considerable success against the colorless, UR, and Gx builds we have seen online and at the PT. Leyline and Halo give you 8 maindeck outs to Seer. Prison generally stops the Smasher/Endless One/Mimic charge and Field slows Bombs, Vaults, and Blinkmoths. Rings and Journeys stop Smasher at parity, and our deck blanks Dismember and Drowners. Form is also unbeatable once in play, at least in G1, and Nevermore answers all the oddballs and Halo is just plain good.
If I can lock down the Affinity matchup, this is a deck I might play.
Nodes is bad without Heliod, the whole point is being able to "lock". Runed halo I presume is a 4 of, so after that...either ensnaring bridge type cards or more o rings.
Remember there are different eldrazi archetypes now....hard to test against them all at the moment- so much variation in the lists.
I have been enjoying considerable success against the colorless, UR, and Gx builds we have seen online and at the PT. Leyline and Halo give you 8 maindeck outs to Seer. Prison generally stops the Smasher/Endless One/Mimic charge and Field slows Bombs, Vaults, and Blinkmoths. Rings and Journeys stop Smasher at parity, and our deck blanks Dismember and Drowners. Form is also unbeatable once in play, at least in G1, and Nevermore answers all the oddballs and Halo is just plain good.
If I can lock down the Affinity matchup, this is a deck I might play.
Affinity isn't really that hard to beat on my book. It's pretty much straight forward aggro, so lock they beaters with the usual pieces (ghostly prison,ensnaring bridge, runed halo and slow 'em down with suppression field, and lock 'em really hard with sphere of safety), then bring your sb stuff, a.k.a. stony silence and aura of silence which are also cool for the tron matchup, (which I still believe is practically unwinnable) and for the ones that worry about colorless eldrazi, it also hoses the only real threat that deck has against us, ratchet bomb.
When they beat us is mostly due to bad draws IMO. Oh, and they don't really pack much sb tech which can hurt us.
As for the SCG Lafayette guy, I don't really know what is that singleton flagstones of trokair doing there.
If he had a full set, those things can be used to fetch mistveil plains and then get them into the deck again.
I don't know about gemstone caverns, I mean, it's pretty much against the odds to get one on your opening hand, and on the other hand, they'll be hurting our manabase.
I could give it a try, but I don't really see it as necessary. It'd probably work better on an "all-in/ramp" version.
Otherwise I'd replace that flagstones for an old fashioned plains.
I'm currently testing Heliod, god of the sun + 2x porphyry nodes over assemble the legion again, on a mono white build, which I'm not really sure about as it usually sucks with my 3x ensnaring bridges.
Basically heliod becomes only a support for the nodes, and that's why I'm kinda skeptical about it.
Then I've changed my manabase from 23 lands to 26 as I was getting stuck at times, but that costed me my 2x nyx-fleece rams which saved my ass lots of times.
Altough scrying is good, I've never really got to hardcast form of the dragon, so I should probably get rid of the scrylands, but I'm gonna test'em a bit more first.
My other build is basically less lands, UWR, and no heliod+nodes.
Slowlands (mistveil plains + scrylands) are typically great if played on turn 1, but I've lost lots of games due to being 1 turn slower because of them, so I should probably adjust the number of them.
Nodes is bad without Heliod, the whole point is being able to "lock". Runed halo I presume is a 4 of, so after that...either ensnaring bridge type cards or more o rings.
Remember there are different eldrazi archetypes now....hard to test against them all at the moment- so much variation in the lists.
I have been enjoying considerable success against the colorless, UR, and Gx builds we have seen online and at the PT. Leyline and Halo give you 8 maindeck outs to Seer. Prison generally stops the Smasher/Endless One/Mimic charge and Field slows Bombs, Vaults, and Blinkmoths. Rings and Journeys stop Smasher at parity, and our deck blanks Dismember and Drowners. Form is also unbeatable once in play, at least in G1, and Nevermore answers all the oddballs and Halo is just plain good.
If I can lock down the Affinity matchup, this is a deck I might play.
I always found affinity to be fine, game one SF and GP was always strong and not being able to hit Etched champion means squat when you run 4 Halo.
I once played a whole event with an affinity player telling me in no uncertain terms that he was scared of my deck having been my playtest partner for it.
I think both this deck and its Pillow fort cousin are quite well placed against Eldrazi. Ideal lists are naturally more likely to be inconsistent, but if the whole field was Eldrazi I would hope to win more than I lost. The main issue is if the Eldrazi started to run All is Dust, but that is unlikely and, frankly, not that much of an issue if Ideal has resolved.
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Ghostly Prison + Supression field too slow for affinity?
No, Field t2 hurts them- Ravagers sac ability and the equip cost on plating are both activated. Prison makes them have to make a big monster rather than hoarding, Field makes it hard for them to do so. Just being alive t4 gives you Wrath options (with field an GP stopping Inkmoth-you-to-death next turn plays). Once Sphere hits they have to win by another route, once Leyline hits that closes off.
Stony silence in the board is awesome against affinity and essential for Tron, the bogey man of Prison decks.
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What about Sacred Mesa instead of Heliod? The upkeep sucks but it lets you attack under a bridge.
It is a bad card. Remember Ideal lists can use Form of the Dragon to win or detention sphere/o ring effects to remove their own Bridges if Heliod beats to win are needed. A lot of the point of Heliod is that it locks with nodes to much zoo sized decks and survives wrath. Personally I think Heliod is better in decks without Bridge, but I have run both.
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No, Field t2 hurts them- Ravagers sac ability and the equip cost on plating are both activated. Prison makes them have to make a big monster rather than hoarding, Field makes it hard for them to do so. Just being alive t4 gives you Wrath options (with field an GP stopping Inkmoth-you-to-death next turn plays). Once Sphere hits they have to win by another route, once Leyline hits that closes off.
Stony silence in the board is awesome against affinity and essential for Tron, the bogey man of Prison decks.
So, how many board wipers do you play mainboard? I haven't really tried anyone yet, basically because I wouldn't know what to cut.
So far, my playtesting with Heliod+nodes gave me good results, seldomly got both online though, so I'm probably just going creatureless again and keeping a couple porphyry nodes mainboard, as IMO, with or without the lock is a really efficient card (getting rid of a 4/5 tarmogoyf, or 2/3 random creatures is awesome for a single 1 CMC card). Heliod, god of the sun doesn't really find its place on my deck and on my playstyle, with 3/4 mainboard ensnaring bridges and suppression fields it becomes only a good blocker and only better if nodes are there.
I was thinking about bringing back assemble the legion, but I'm probably just keeping it on sb, switching it for the nodes in case form of the dragon is not enough to win (horrible interaction with nodes). I've never had issues with FOTD alone, only a Soul sisters deck which eventually went to +100 life and counting (which I won with a massive army created with assemble the legion) and a couple random decks which had leyline of sanctity out.
Sacred Mesa doesn't seem like a good inclusion here. Firstly it nonboes with suppression field which I think, we've all got to the conclusion is a core card here. Secondly, if you don't sacrifice a pegasus you must sacrifice the card so basically it costs you 2 mana to keep every turn (more with suppression fields out), therefore, you won't be able to have a decent army until you have enough mana to pay for it.
Better try luminarch ascension instead, at least it doesn't die to itself..
Other wincons you can try are sigil of the empty throne (useless once enduring ideal resolves), starfield to nyx, assemble the legion, karma, another form of the dragon (hello, copy enchantment) and jankier/slower options are helix pinnacle, baneful omen (which I include mainly because it can get around leyline), manlands, curse of the pierced heart, etc.
Oh, and about flagstones of trokair, I'm just testing them. I mainly use them for fetching mistveil plains, I guess they would be better if I played shocklands or stuff.. The only thing that stops me from playing them is blood moon, otherwise they're just upgraded plains.
Luminarch is just not as good as Starfield, Heliod, or Sigil. That said none work with bridge at all.
You can normally mill soul Sisters- 2 mistveil plains. If you run Monastery Siege you have to be super careful if you put it into discard/draw mode and not do it. If you are up vs Proc lifegain- forget it- the game is a draw.
Form is normally enough.
I run the blue splash for ideal, and use Supreme Verdicts, 2/3 depending on the expected meta.I am also a full on Bridge free list- used to use one but in testing too often had to remove my own. Final straw was losing to a Bitterblossom fae deck in a pptq where Hurkyls on my solitary artifact lost me the game. He said after "I expected a bridge" and at that point I thought I would concentrate on enchantments. Since I use Starfield of Nyx as a win con Bridge becomes less attractive (fetch off ideal sometimes does the job there and then), or sometimes Wrath and Starfield in the same turn when they are tapped out (via Nykthos mana). The second splash means I have a wider toolbox and am happy to lose Bridge. SFN is a package with Monastery Siege, that gets me to the combo but sometimes at the expense of wincons.
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I am interested in this deck. I have started collecting key pieces since I'd rather spend my resources building another deck than play Modern in an Eldrazi infested meta. Hopefully, by the next update this deck is a go.
Questions though:
1. How does Porphyry Nodes combo with Heliod? Does Heliod's Indestructibility dodge the destroy effect or are you forced to produce a token so Nodes won't be sacrificed?
2. What if the opponent has Leyline of Sanctity? How does the deck usually win? Heliod beats?
3. @drmarkb - Current list please? I'd prefer a straight W version just to get a feel of the deck.
I am interested in this deck. I have started collecting key pieces since I'd rather spend my resources building another deck than play Modern in an Eldrazi infested meta. Hopefully, by the next update this deck is a go.
Questions though:
1. How does Porphyry Nodes combo with Heliod? Does Heliod's Indestructibility dodge the destroy effect or are you forced to produce a token so Nodes won't be sacrificed?
2. What if the opponent has Leyline of Sanctity? How does the deck usually win? Heliod beats?
3. @drmarkb - Current list please? I'd prefer a straight W version just to get a feel of the deck.
(1)- Heliod is indestructible. Nodes destroys, can't hit Heliod and thus never goes away. Any creature with power equal to 5 or less will be munched by Nodes one by one, until such time as Nodes and Heliod exist alone, with any new creatures having to be greater than 5 cc power to avoid munching. Note that Starfield knackers this board state, Nodes becoming a 1/1.
(2) Leyline does nothing to any card bar Form. You can....
(a) Heliod or Starfield them, or Luminarch if you play it.
(b) Deck them. Lock them so that they can't cast useful spells via Dovescape, and just play unlife/form to shoot yourself-reset your life.
(c) you can actually cast dovescape and Ideal in the same turn, making 7 one ones. Not ideal but I have done it to a locked affinity deck.
Also, Leyline for most decks is a g2 card- you can often win g1 and just sit back and not lose.
You can also O ring the Leyline.
Good experienced players normally scoop at the resolved Ideal if they can't win, esp at PPTQ level events.
3- I normally splash- I can post my list, but the deck is Wu.
A white list would look like.....
2 Mistveil plains, 4 Nykthos, 3-4 Ghost Quarter, plains, perhaps running manlands- 24/5 lands
boseiju as an option.
options
2/3 sup field
0-3 bridge
2-3 wraths
peace of mind (sometimes used to get form or other wincons into the bin post Ideal so that you can mistvei plains it). Monastery siege does the same thing in Wu.
1/2 plan B wincons- Heliod (often with nodes), Starfield (risky but gives other lines of play and an instawin option post wrath), Luminarch (good for sneaking down past blue control based decks that are low on burn, weaker against zoo, infect, affinity). Sigil- hard to resolve vs blue but better with cheap enchntments like nodes tht can come down straight after . These get worse the more Bridges you play. If you play Bridge it is nice to be able to remove it if Form plans go wrong.
The board needs anti infect cards and anti tron cards as these are weak-ish matches- mainly because infect boards in Nature's Claim to buy a window. Lots of anti tron.
Running 4 gqs and going to surgical is one way to go.
Other than that recurring GQs into crucible (though they will probably play crucible or loam) + 4 stony silence and Eidolon of Rhetoric (which slows them to a crawl).
One anti infect/fast zoo option is the white shoal, another is celestial flare or fog effects.
I sometimes debate if it is worth going after tron, its such a bad game 1 that even getting an even chance in G2 leaves the match unfavourable. Stony/Eidolon are nuts anyway against many other decks, so generally I say yes, go for it, but without cards like spreading seas or landkill mono-w has a harder time than R or U splashes.
Thanks for the reply. I'd go for the W version without Starfield for now to test the waters, when I'm experienced enough then I might tinker with the splashes. I like Monastery Siege but I feel the deck would be more consistent if it's in mono colored shell (with the exception of Dovescape and Privileged Position). But I guess if you have played Ideal then the game is almost always in the bag and I think you can still discard once you reach 8 cards then you can use Mistveil's ability. Although it is a nonbo with S Fields so I guess Wheel of Sun and Moon can be a one off?
Based on the SB cards, this deck can adapt against Tron but I'm more worried about fast decks now that you have mentioned it. So I guess tax effects is the way to go plus the Nodes.
Thanks for the baseline. I'll try to come up with a list.
Last question: Would you prefer a Bridge in either version?
Its not unfavourable against zoo, but it can be if you spend too much time with cards that don't instantly do stuff- too many wins cons.
Infect is ok on the play, harder game 2.
Yes Chalice is runnable in the deck, very much so. The interaction with Nykthos ond sphere of safety is not so good, but the card can ratchet up the two slot. I don't own the primer but if I did I would mention that, as it is a hot topic. Is it enough to warrant a lower enchantment count? I don't know. It might be overkill.
The difference between Ideal and shift is that Ideal can operate as a Pillow-Fort deck- enchantment control, albiet with dodgier draws than a dedicated deck. It is thus much less vulnerable than Scapeshift to aggressive metas- you can beat an affinity deck more often than not on the play with a t2 sup field, t3 ghostly or unlife and t4 play. You can also beat it on the draw sometimes in similar fashion. Burn is a bye often. T0 Leyline, T2 S field, T3 unlife or Ghostly sets them back a long way, and that is without playing cards such as faith's fetters. The weakness compared to Scapeshift is tron- you need to race it and can't game 1 very often. Scapeshift is a more rounded less binary deck, inherently smoother, and is more consistent in a vacuum. Both decks have a weakish plan B (decking and R/U control). We also get good to great combo matches in the right build- unlife is unbeatable game 1 by ad nauseam (we can beat theirs once EI resolves). Cards like nevermore, leyline and protective cards like greater auramancy really make Scapeshift's day hard, ditto grisselbrand-shoal decks don't take too kindly to either unlife, suppression field or leyline. Ditto Storm plus Leyline game one is soon game 2.
I always used to run negate side, mixed with condescend. Neither are ideal, pun intended.
Both do a Jo but for my money they are not irreplaceable.
I want to try Silence tech. Not sure how it went or what besides ref blue x decks it came in for...
I want to read a report on the recent list. We had one on the recent landkill list on our rw primer and often you can see why a deck won from reports. EI lists are very binary, rubbish matches and almost un-losable ones, and often it is not specific tech that wins matches, it is instead the matchups, together with the skill of the pilot of course. The original list looked pretty standard bar one or two bits, so I would wager he played it really well and got good matchups.
I have already been talking about chalice this morning in another context. I think it is a good card for Ideal decks. Map I dislike in Ideal anyway. I would rather filter all my draws than add just manabase and silver bullet land tutoring. I like to run two d sphere and one faith's fetters main. Sphere can indeed take out tokens, and even your own bridges if you decide to run Starfield of Nyx as some do. D sphere adds much needed flexibility to the deck. When fetched via Ideal it can deal with hexproofers, which is great v boggles, but then so is Runed Halo.
3 ensnaring bridge
1 dovescape
1 form of the dragon
4 ghostly prison
2 greater auramancy
4 leyline of sanctity
1 o ring
1 peace of mind (didn't actually have it so I ran a blind obedience in its place)
1 phyrexian unlife
2 porphyry nodes
4 runed halo
2 sphere of safety
4 suppression field
4 enduring ideal
15 plains
2 mistveil plains
4 salt crusted steppe
1 Boseiju
1 ghost quarter
3 nykthos
Sideboard
1 aura of silence
1 luminarch
1 nevermore
2 porphyry nodes
4 Stony silence
4 silence
1 Pithing Needle.
I lost to burn round one(0-2). (Had to mul to 3 game one).
Round two (0-2)I lost to RWB delver. Game 2 I got robbed. He had one copy of cyclonic Rift in his board and he topped deck it at the right time.
Round 3 I won vs stompy.(2-1) game two I lock his whole board with halos and top decks a strangle root for the win.
Round 4 I won vs 8 rack.(2-0) I was lucky enough to have leyline in my hand both games.finished game 3 with 14 1/1 bird tokens fromantic dovescape
Round 5 I beat aura hexproof (2-0). With such small creature base runed halo really hurt this deck. He got me to 2 life on game one but a topped decked phyrexian unlife just when I needed it.
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Now as for my list I feel I really want to splash either blue or red.
Thoughts?
(I posted this in pillow by mistake )
Suppression field is excellent in many matches, hitting Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam, cycling in Living End, ten fetches/Lavamancers in burn, Viscera Seer, Pridemages and Vials in hatebears, or Kiki in chord decks, Pendelhaven and Nexus in infect (plus fetches), Grisselbrand in reanimator, lating and manlands in Affinity. Allied with Ghostly prison it is a lot for some decks to handle.
Suppression field is one of the best t2 plays the deck can make.
Suppression field is excellent in many matches, hitting Lightning Storm in Ad Nauseam, cycling in Living End, ten fetches/Lavamancers in burn, Viscera Seer, Pridemages and Vials in hatebears, or Kiki in chord decks, Pendelhaven and Nexus in infect (plus fetches), Grisselbrand in reanimator, lating and manlands in Affinity. Allied with Ghostly prison it is a lot for some decks to handle.
Suppression field is one of the best t2 plays the deck can make.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Remember there are different eldrazi archetypes now....hard to test against them all at the moment- so much variation in the lists.
I have been enjoying considerable success against the colorless, UR, and Gx builds we have seen online and at the PT. Leyline and Halo give you 8 maindeck outs to Seer. Prison generally stops the Smasher/Endless One/Mimic charge and Field slows Bombs, Vaults, and Blinkmoths. Rings and Journeys stop Smasher at parity, and our deck blanks Dismember and Drowners. Form is also unbeatable once in play, at least in G1, and Nevermore answers all the oddballs and Halo is just plain good.
If I can lock down the Affinity matchup, this is a deck I might play.
Affinity isn't really that hard to beat on my book. It's pretty much straight forward aggro, so lock they beaters with the usual pieces (ghostly prison,ensnaring bridge, runed halo and slow 'em down with suppression field, and lock 'em really hard with sphere of safety), then bring your sb stuff, a.k.a. stony silence and aura of silence which are also cool for the tron matchup, (which I still believe is practically unwinnable) and for the ones that worry about colorless eldrazi, it also hoses the only real threat that deck has against us, ratchet bomb.
When they beat us is mostly due to bad draws IMO. Oh, and they don't really pack much sb tech which can hurt us.
As for the SCG Lafayette guy, I don't really know what is that singleton flagstones of trokair doing there.
If he had a full set, those things can be used to fetch mistveil plains and then get them into the deck again.
I don't know about gemstone caverns, I mean, it's pretty much against the odds to get one on your opening hand, and on the other hand, they'll be hurting our manabase.
I could give it a try, but I don't really see it as necessary. It'd probably work better on an "all-in/ramp" version.
Otherwise I'd replace that flagstones for an old fashioned plains.
I'm currently testing Heliod, god of the sun + 2x porphyry nodes over assemble the legion again, on a mono white build, which I'm not really sure about as it usually sucks with my 3x ensnaring bridges.
Basically heliod becomes only a support for the nodes, and that's why I'm kinda skeptical about it.
Then I've changed my manabase from 23 lands to 26 as I was getting stuck at times, but that costed me my 2x nyx-fleece rams which saved my ass lots of times.
This is what I'm toying with right now.
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Sphere of Safety
4 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Suppression Field
1 Peace of Mind
1 Form of the Dragon
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Dovescape
8 Plains
4 Enduring Ideal
2 Calciform Pools
2 Mistveil Plains
1 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Porphyry Nodes
1 Greater Auramancy
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Heliod, God of the Sun
1 mikokoro, center of the sea
SB: 1 Nyx-Fleece Ram
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Aura of Silence
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Nevermore
SB: 1 Greater Auramancy
Altough scrying is good, I've never really got to hardcast form of the dragon, so I should probably get rid of the scrylands, but I'm gonna test'em a bit more first.
My other build is basically less lands, UWR, and no heliod+nodes.
1 Assemble the Legion
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Sphere of Safety
2 Ghost Quarter
6 Plains
4 Runed Halo
4 Suppression Field
3 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Peace of Mind
2 Nyx-Fleece Ram
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Dovescape
4 Enduring Ideal
3 Mistveil Plains
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Form of the Dragon
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Greater Auramancy
4 Monastery Siege
4 Hallowed Fountain
SB: 3 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Nevermore
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Slowlands (mistveil plains + scrylands) are typically great if played on turn 1, but I've lost lots of games due to being 1 turn slower because of them, so I should probably adjust the number of them.
Any thoughts?
Cheers.
SST.
I always found affinity to be fine, game one SF and GP was always strong and not being able to hit Etched champion means squat when you run 4 Halo.
I once played a whole event with an affinity player telling me in no uncertain terms that he was scared of my deck having been my playtest partner for it.
I think both this deck and its Pillow fort cousin are quite well placed against Eldrazi. Ideal lists are naturally more likely to be inconsistent, but if the whole field was Eldrazi I would hope to win more than I lost. The main issue is if the Eldrazi started to run All is Dust, but that is unlikely and, frankly, not that much of an issue if Ideal has resolved.
No, Field t2 hurts them- Ravagers sac ability and the equip cost on plating are both activated. Prison makes them have to make a big monster rather than hoarding, Field makes it hard for them to do so. Just being alive t4 gives you Wrath options (with field an GP stopping Inkmoth-you-to-death next turn plays). Once Sphere hits they have to win by another route, once Leyline hits that closes off.
Stony silence in the board is awesome against affinity and essential for Tron, the bogey man of Prison decks.
It is a bad card. Remember Ideal lists can use Form of the Dragon to win or detention sphere/o ring effects to remove their own Bridges if Heliod beats to win are needed. A lot of the point of Heliod is that it locks with nodes to much zoo sized decks and survives wrath. Personally I think Heliod is better in decks without Bridge, but I have run both.
So, how many board wipers do you play mainboard? I haven't really tried anyone yet, basically because I wouldn't know what to cut.
So far, my playtesting with Heliod+nodes gave me good results, seldomly got both online though, so I'm probably just going creatureless again and keeping a couple porphyry nodes mainboard, as IMO, with or without the lock is a really efficient card (getting rid of a 4/5 tarmogoyf, or 2/3 random creatures is awesome for a single 1 CMC card).
Heliod, god of the sun doesn't really find its place on my deck and on my playstyle, with 3/4 mainboard ensnaring bridges and suppression fields it becomes only a good blocker and only better if nodes are there.
I was thinking about bringing back assemble the legion, but I'm probably just keeping it on sb, switching it for the nodes in case form of the dragon is not enough to win (horrible interaction with nodes). I've never had issues with FOTD alone, only a Soul sisters deck which eventually went to +100 life and counting (which I won with a massive army created with assemble the legion) and a couple random decks which had leyline of sanctity out.
Sacred Mesa doesn't seem like a good inclusion here. Firstly it nonboes with suppression field which I think, we've all got to the conclusion is a core card here. Secondly, if you don't sacrifice a pegasus you must sacrifice the card so basically it costs you 2 mana to keep every turn (more with suppression fields out), therefore, you won't be able to have a decent army until you have enough mana to pay for it.
Better try luminarch ascension instead, at least it doesn't die to itself..
Other wincons you can try are sigil of the empty throne (useless once enduring ideal resolves), starfield to nyx, assemble the legion, karma, another form of the dragon (hello, copy enchantment) and jankier/slower options are helix pinnacle, baneful omen (which I include mainly because it can get around leyline), manlands, curse of the pierced heart, etc.
Oh, and about flagstones of trokair, I'm just testing them. I mainly use them for fetching mistveil plains, I guess they would be better if I played shocklands or stuff.. The only thing that stops me from playing them is blood moon, otherwise they're just upgraded plains.
Cheers.
SST.
You can normally mill soul Sisters- 2 mistveil plains. If you run Monastery Siege you have to be super careful if you put it into discard/draw mode and not do it. If you are up vs Proc lifegain- forget it- the game is a draw.
Form is normally enough.
I run the blue splash for ideal, and use Supreme Verdicts, 2/3 depending on the expected meta.I am also a full on Bridge free list- used to use one but in testing too often had to remove my own. Final straw was losing to a Bitterblossom fae deck in a pptq where Hurkyls on my solitary artifact lost me the game. He said after "I expected a bridge" and at that point I thought I would concentrate on enchantments. Since I use Starfield of Nyx as a win con Bridge becomes less attractive (fetch off ideal sometimes does the job there and then), or sometimes Wrath and Starfield in the same turn when they are tapped out (via Nykthos mana). The second splash means I have a wider toolbox and am happy to lose Bridge. SFN is a package with Monastery Siege, that gets me to the combo but sometimes at the expense of wincons.
Questions though:
1. How does Porphyry Nodes combo with Heliod? Does Heliod's Indestructibility dodge the destroy effect or are you forced to produce a token so Nodes won't be sacrificed?
2. What if the opponent has Leyline of Sanctity? How does the deck usually win? Heliod beats?
3. @drmarkb - Current list please? I'd prefer a straight W version just to get a feel of the deck.
I find that we Have to run Monastery Siege, at least 2, hard to justify Not running it.
(1)- Heliod is indestructible. Nodes destroys, can't hit Heliod and thus never goes away. Any creature with power equal to 5 or less will be munched by Nodes one by one, until such time as Nodes and Heliod exist alone, with any new creatures having to be greater than 5 cc power to avoid munching. Note that Starfield knackers this board state, Nodes becoming a 1/1.
(2) Leyline does nothing to any card bar Form. You can....
(a) Heliod or Starfield them, or Luminarch if you play it.
(b) Deck them. Lock them so that they can't cast useful spells via Dovescape, and just play unlife/form to shoot yourself-reset your life.
(c) you can actually cast dovescape and Ideal in the same turn, making 7 one ones. Not ideal but I have done it to a locked affinity deck.
Also, Leyline for most decks is a g2 card- you can often win g1 and just sit back and not lose.
You can also O ring the Leyline.
Good experienced players normally scoop at the resolved Ideal if they can't win, esp at PPTQ level events.
3- I normally splash- I can post my list, but the deck is Wu.
A white list would look like.....
2 Mistveil plains, 4 Nykthos, 3-4 Ghost Quarter, plains, perhaps running manlands- 24/5 lands
boseiju as an option.
core cards
4 ideal
1 unlife
1 form
4 Leyline
4 Halo
4 ghostly prison
3-4 sphere of safety
1 dovescape
2-3 greater auramancy
1-2 orings
options
2/3 sup field
0-3 bridge
2-3 wraths
peace of mind (sometimes used to get form or other wincons into the bin post Ideal so that you can mistvei plains it). Monastery siege does the same thing in Wu.
1/2 plan B wincons- Heliod (often with nodes), Starfield (risky but gives other lines of play and an instawin option post wrath), Luminarch (good for sneaking down past blue control based decks that are low on burn, weaker against zoo, infect, affinity). Sigil- hard to resolve vs blue but better with cheap enchntments like nodes tht can come down straight after . These get worse the more Bridges you play. If you play Bridge it is nice to be able to remove it if Form plans go wrong.
The board needs anti infect cards and anti tron cards as these are weak-ish matches- mainly because infect boards in Nature's Claim to buy a window. Lots of anti tron.
Running 4 gqs and going to surgical is one way to go.
Other than that recurring GQs into crucible (though they will probably play crucible or loam) + 4 stony silence and Eidolon of Rhetoric (which slows them to a crawl).
One anti infect/fast zoo option is the white shoal, another is celestial flare or fog effects.
I sometimes debate if it is worth going after tron, its such a bad game 1 that even getting an even chance in G2 leaves the match unfavourable. Stony/Eidolon are nuts anyway against many other decks, so generally I say yes, go for it, but without cards like spreading seas or landkill mono-w has a harder time than R or U splashes.
Based on the SB cards, this deck can adapt against Tron but I'm more worried about fast decks now that you have mentioned it. So I guess tax effects is the way to go plus the Nodes.
Thanks for the baseline. I'll try to come up with a list.
Last question: Would you prefer a Bridge in either version?
Infect is ok on the play, harder game 2.
Yes Chalice is runnable in the deck, very much so. The interaction with Nykthos ond sphere of safety is not so good, but the card can ratchet up the two slot. I don't own the primer but if I did I would mention that, as it is a hot topic. Is it enough to warrant a lower enchantment count? I don't know. It might be overkill.