I'm a little confused how this deck works, what happens if you draw your Meishin, the Mind Cage or Dovescape before you resolve Enduring Ideal, or even worse you draw your Form of the Dragon in your opening hand? It seems like See Beyond[/CARD] would be a must run, or is there something I'm missing?
Do you always want to play Enduring Ideal as soon as possible, or do you want to hard cast some of the enchantments first?
I'm a little confused how this deck works, what happens if you draw your Meishin, the Mind Cage or Dovescape before you resolve Enduring Ideal, or even worse you draw your Form of the Dragon in your opening hand? It seems like See Beyond[/CARD] would be a must run, or is there something I'm missing?
Do you always want to play Enduring Ideal as soon as possible, or do you want to hard cast some of the enchantments first?
If you draw into important enchantments, you have several options. What you do is largely determined by your opponent's deck and the present state of the board. If you look at barley's list, He has doubled up on every important enchantment to minimize needing to hardcast something before enduring ideals. He also has molten psyche to shuffle enchantments back into his deck if he needs to wait until after enduring ideals to grab them.
I personally run mistveil plains, so that it doesn't matter if the enchantments get stuck in hand as I can eventually discard them and put them back into my library. As long as I can still lock my opponents out of the game, I can cast enduring ideals safely knowing that I will eventually hit a mistveil plains. I have noticed that I should really put in a second form of the dragon to avoid random exile effects like bitter ordeal, but I haven't yet gotten around to doing it. I also run possibility storm which will often tuck unwanted enchantments back on the bottom of my library for later use.
I've been playing a full playset of Crystal Ball and it's been really good to be honest. My mentality is that aggro should just be a good MU without sweepers. If it's not, then reconsider the configuration of your build because Ideal should beat aggro. Phyreixan Unlife does that pretty much on its own and it's already incorporated in our combo! Man, that was pretty obvious. I figured all my builds with sweepers were pretty terrible in actuality because they didn't focus on the real problem...
Counterspells are still public enemy number one and Silence is still the best white spell at stopping those. Ricochet Trap out of the sb offers a redundancy in that effect, only reactive instead of proactive.
One other discovery I've made is that Stony Silence is terrible in this deck. You don't want to play multiples because they shut off our Blooms and Prisms, which are the only acceleration worth playing without investing a lot of space like Storm or playing green. Damping Matrix is definitely better, and might be the best choice, but it would have to come in for Crystal Ball every time. And I'm not sure if Crystal Ball should ever come out. The card I'm trying at the moment is Pithing Needle. It's so damn versatile I can't believe I hadn't tried it before. It's been very impressive against Pod and Twin and Tron, but I still want more games before I come to a verdict.
Blood Moon supplemented by Suppression Field was too many cards that sit there and potentially do nothing. I got beat down far too often while hoping to mana screw them. I quickly got over the cuteness of it and wanted some defense. I'm settled on a wall that cantrips and Phyrexian Unlife for now. With Field gone, I got to bring Crystal Ball back to the table, which you mentioned. It's seriously been my favorite new card in a long time. Even post-Ideal, it offers utility in that you won't be drawing any Forms
I think if you're going to play Possibility Storm, you have to guarantee it's going to do something relevant. The problem is that for every one time it works, it fails three times more often. And that one time it happens the way you want, you get a feeling of overwhelming satisfaction that blindsides you. If the win or loss is basically coming down to how you flip on PS, your deck better come out on top, know what I mean? I was losing games after I resolved PS, which shouldn't happen.
If Possibility Storm is added again, you probably have to play blue for Transmute. There isn't any other way to get around Storm's trigger that I've found. Most likely, the play is to use Tolaria West to find Ornithopter and storm into Emrakul. And obviously drop all other creatures. It's completely separate from the Enduring Ideal package, unless you also add Dizzy Spell and Gitaxian Probe. And drop all other sorcery spells, just like creatures. It can probably fit in the same deck if you want to brew it up.
I've never tried RW without Bloom. I can't imagine it would work though. You need more than four pieces of mana accel, and I can tell you from experience that Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, etc. aren't worth the space. If it nets 2 or more mana, then it's worth considering in my book.
Has anyone tested Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as source of mana accel? It seems like it would be good if you play a lot of white enchantments and it will let you get a faster enduring ideal.
Does anyone know of a way to get an artifact into play after you cast ideal? I was thinking of trying the Mycosynth Lattice, Stony Silence, Ghostly Prison lock but lattice seems like it's too hard to get out.
If you are running Possibility Storm, you might as well run Curse of Exhaustion. W/ Possibility Storm in play, Curse PREVENTS enchanted players from playing ANYTHING at all. No point in not running one without the other.
The goal of this build was to make it possible to cast Enduring Ideal on turn 3 like back in the good old Seething Song days. I figured that if one could Wargate for Lotus Bloom on turn 2 then it would be possible to cast Ideal on turn 3. Hence, the ramp in this build comprises of Wargating into Bloom. With Glittering Wish and a copy of Wargate in the sideboard, the deck is virtually ruling 6 copies of Wargate. Glittering Wish is great because it's cmc is 2 hence casting it on turn 2 is on par with casting Wargate on turn 3. Glittering Wish also opens up having a wish board which enable one to fetch other answers during a game. Wargating on Turn 2 requires mana ramp on turn 1. I chose Utopia Sprawl because it serves as a mana fixer, and it's non-creature. Creature ramp is twarted by removal and I believe that the strength of Enduring Ideal is that it is creatureless.
This rebuild started off with 3 copies of Diabolic Tutor but over a year it's gone down to a singleton. The mana base reflects the earlier version that required Black sources. The availability of Black sources in this build has not proved to be a problem though I really should reoptimize the mana base.
Remand is taking the place of Serum Vision. Although the deck is faster with Serum Vision, having a better means of interacting with the early game while blindly drawing seems much better than blindly drawing and scry 2. It does double duty as it stales my opponent's early game a turn (buying me a turn) and it can protect Enduring Ideal or some of my early spells.
The Enchantment package is rather bland but gets down to the point. For a year I use to run Meishin, the Mindcage but it didn't seem as necessary. It's a card I rather not hard cast and if I'm going off on Ideal Phyrexian Unlife served better as a means to not die. I've taken out Meishin and doubled my PhUnlife.
In addition, I use to run 2 copies of Leyline of Sanctity. It is a great card as it can shut down strategies like burn and mill. It also wards against hand disruption. However, its utility in the mainboard is a coin flip (it's either fantastic or a dead card). Leyline has been switched for Spellskite. I really like spellskite because it's never a dead draw in the early game. Skite not only protects me from damage (creature or burn) but it also protects my permanents. It also does not die to Firespout (I run in the main and one in the side that I can wish for).
I need help further sculpting the deck including the sideboard. I would like to cut black out but I need more ways to manipulate the deck in the early stages. I really like Tutor though and I think this deck needs a way to tutor for Enduring Ideal. The sideboard is 5 cards over (it's really 3 cards over since I've only recently been testing spellskites). Are there any cards that I should cut (in general) or run?
I really don't think the curse is overly important - its good against lingering souls and weenie strategies, but then ghostly prison deals with that strategy for the most part.
It may not look it but Curse is very important. It's not there for weenie or token decks but it's there to stop birthing pod and hatebears cold. In those games, Curse + Copy Curse almost always shuts them down. Without Curse, there isn't an enchantment in the entire deck list that shuts down birthing pod completely. Furthermore, Copy Enchantment is very relevant in Tron match ups. I've often had to copy either Volition Reins or Detention Sphere in those games. Admittedly though, Copy Enchantment is a dead card without a target but it's consistently been very useful in situations where I need a second copy of a permanent.
Decay... decaying from a wish seems expensive and inefficient, and Detention Sphere does a very similar job. Why have both in the SB?
I think you are exactly right. I've rarely had to use Abrupt Decay. In the early game it's rare that I've used Abrupt Decay on the same turn I Wish for it.
With mana-ramp being utopia spring (to blank creature removal), I believe you've made the deck slightly weaker by adding spellskite. Someone's path to exile has a target again. If you decide to stick with spellskite, perhaps Birds of Paradise will be a better fit for your mana ramp. Judgment call tbh, but at least the BoP can block later on if needed.
Spellskite has probably been the best improvement I've made in this deck as it's taking the slot of 2 Leylines. I've been reluctant to put creatures in this deck simply because it makes my opponent's creature removal active. However unlike Leyline, Spellskite is not often a dead draw. Furthermore, without Spellskite this deck will frequently lose to much faster decks like Infect. Spellskite also stops Splitter Twin. Skite has been brilliant overall. In addition I don't mind if Spellskite gets Pathed (so long as I can fetch a basic).
I don't like Tutor and I don't like having black for one card. I'll definitely play around with See beyond.
For two reasons. The first being that most of the time you simply win by Form + Dovescape + Phyrexian Unlife. Other enchantments on the field are win-mores at that point. The second being that it may take the spot of a more relevant card.
The OP has not been active for a long time. I tried this deck out for a while (it's combo, I'll play anything that's combo) so I'll give you my opinion.
No, it doesn't. For one, your enchantments are all in different colors (Sprawl = green, Unlife/Dovescape = white, Form = red, etc).
Secondly, the enchantments are mostly 1/2 ofs, so it's going to be hard to get enough of them down to make a difference. Your main goal is to put them into play with Ideal, not to hardcast them. 1-2 is good for the consistency of the deck - you don't draw them too often (Ideal puts enchantments from your library, not your hand, onto the battlefield) - but bad for trying to achieve high devotion.
Thirdly, the mana costs of the high-devotion enchantments are, as expected, high. This becomes a chicken-and-egg situation: to get high devotion, you need to hardcast a 6+CMC enchantment. But if you manage to do that, you'd be far ahead, so what do you need the extra devotion for?
Lastly, you have to figure out what you want to do even if you have a high devotion in one color. Nykthos into Ideal? It's very rare that you get 3 enchantments down before hitting 7 mana (let alone three of the same color), so Nykthos simply acts as a land that taps for colorless 99% of the time.
Hey Guys, Its me again with another episode of "Is this too crazy or might it just work" I know that the package most people use to lock their opponents out of the game is Form + Dovescape + phyrexian unlife these days. which is pretty good but still gives your opponent a chance to hit you. What if we now replace the phyrexian unlife with archetype of imagination the new enchantment creature. i know it's harder to cast than unlife, and isn't as good against decks like burn, or fast aggro decks. It also is easier to remove without dovescape on the field, but it serves the purpose of completely blocking our opponents out of attacking us and can attack back for some extra damage if we want to try and take a turn off our clock? a shock land plus a swing from the archetype means one less dragon that needs to hit our opponent. What do you guys think?
For those of you who havent sseen archetype of illusion
4UU
Enchantment Creature — Human Wizard Uncommon
Creatures you control have flying.
Creatures your opponents control lose flying and can't have or gain flying.
"Is it not the embodiment of our aspirations?"
—Prokopios, astronomer of Meletis
Illus. Robie Trevino #32/165 3/2
As long as you always cheat out the blue Archetype last, I think a one Archetype-1+ Unlife split might actually be the best lock configuration for this deck. Archetype + Form freezes Emrakul and her Annihilator in her tracks (one of the few ways to break out of Form + Dovescape + X locks), and Dovescape keeps spells from killing Archetype! Now just kick out Grim Lavamancer, keep Murderous Redcap from killing Archetype, pray Ulamog never arrives, and cheat out Unlife first if you're nearly dead to fliers, and we're all good...
The OP has not been active for a long time. I tried this deck out for a while (it's combo, I'll play anything that's combo) so I'll give you my opinion.
No, it doesn't. For one, your enchantments are all in different colors (Sprawl = green, Unlife/Dovescape = white, Form = red, etc).
Secondly, the enchantments are mostly 1/2 ofs, so it's going to be hard to get enough of them down to make a difference. Your main goal is to put them into play with Ideal, not to hardcast them. 1-2 is good for the consistency of the deck - you don't draw them too often (Ideal puts enchantments from your library, not your hand, onto the battlefield) - but bad for trying to achieve high devotion.
Thirdly, the mana costs of the high-devotion enchantments are, as expected, high. This becomes a chicken-and-egg situation: to get high devotion, you need to hardcast a 6+CMC enchantment. But if you manage to do that, you'd be far ahead, so what do you need the extra devotion for?
Lastly, you have to figure out what you want to do even if you have a high devotion in one color. Nykthos into Ideal? It's very rare that you get 3 enchantments down before hitting 7 mana (let alone three of the same color), so Nykthos simply acts as a land that taps for colorless 99% of the time.
Thank you for the analysis. It makes sense to me. I was helping someone else with a more causal enchantment deck (think 4 Ghostly Prison, Mesa Enchantress) and it worked for them, but it was really too casual for actual play. I thought I would drop the idea in here to bounce it around, because I always like the Enduring Ideal decks, its just not too viable because its so very expensive.
Lectrys. Some of the decks are running black these days right? As such, wouldn't night of soul's betrayal, or curse of death's hold stop even redcap and lavamancer? This gives a good lock on just about any deck without having to worry too much about running subpar cards. It does stick us in four colors though, which I am wary of. I'm definitely going to try running one archetype in my (admittedly outdated) ruw build.
Lectrys. Some of the decks are running black these days right? As such, wouldn't night of soul's betrayal, or curse of death's hold stop even redcap and lavamancer? This gives a good lock on just about any deck without having to worry too much about running subpar cards. It does stick us in four colors though, which I am wary of. I'm definitely going to try running one archetype in my (admittedly outdated) ruw build.
Those two enchantments are options, and I have seen them in some builds. They're not very good third cards in the Form + Dovescape partial lock because they can't deal with X/2+'s that are already in play, but they're good fourth cards.
Those two enchantments are options, and I have seen them in some builds. They're not very good third cards in the Form + Dovescape partial lock because they can't deal with X/2+'s that are already in play, but they're good fourth cards.
I was thinking as a follow up to solidify the lock after form, dove scape, illusion, and finish up with curse stopping anything else. But that may be overkill.
My first post in this tread and I really love the Ideal enginge, and on how flexible it is in terms of buildig it (UWR, UWG, etc. etc.).
I just tried out the Mono-U build of Choosen1 along with the Wish/Wargate Version of Jessica, The Possibility Storm Version (Which is nice, fun, but horrible inconsistent), UWR of all kind, just UW etc. etc.
Most explosive Ideal on turn three was the Wish/Wargate Version with Utopia Sprawl. But only one where I had the Forrest, Sprawl, Wargate and Ideal drawn until turn three. But this is very rare, cause you need so much pieces in hand to go off on turn three. If there are no counter spells on the other side.
For my prefered playstyle, I'll stick on the Mono-U version. It packes so much tech and raw control, and has much answers to problematic match ups, like heavy counter, tron etc. But is a little weaker to Aggro match ups.
Anyway, the winning core of the Deck with 7-10 Cards in total let us build so many diffrent directions on how the deck works, and that is what I love to tinker around with the Ideal Archetype.
Just sharing my thoughts on my testing so far, and more thoughts are to come:)
hello everybody, been tooling around with this deck for about 2-ish years now. (dont quote me on that, im terrible with time) but anywho, its nice to see other people using the wargate > lotus bloom, method to power out ideal. after the seething song ban alot of people seemed to just drop the deck for some reason.
i love the utopian sprawl idea from jessica, i've been using BoP this whole time, and while i havent had as much trouble with removal as one would expect, sprawl seems like such a superior choice.
archetype of imagination is interesting as well, but (with the exception of infect) unlife seems superior.
anyways, heres the list ive been using for some time now, im going to swap BoP's for sprawls as soon as i can get my hands on em.
been debating with myself on -1 pentad prism, +1 wargate. boseiju in the SB because its just slow mana and pain vs non blue decks.
pact of negation seems righteous to me for enduring ideal, after ideal is cast, you wont need mana for anything else. so paying for pact is fine. this makes it the perfect spell to force ideal through.
angel's grace is cute vs twin combos where they tap-out to get the kill. only for you to survive at 1 life. untap, and cast ideal grabbing unlife.
it's decent vs aggro too, so long as they arent holding burn. and it allows pact to be used without having to pay 3UU next upkeep.
Timely smacks aggro, and is never useless unless you're vs combo.
this makes for a weird game-1 that tends to have enough answers to any deck for reasonable a chance at winning, and plenty of favorable matchups against twin-based decks.
game-2 and 3 it turns into bant/5cc hate-enchantments.
Exchaning life gain and cards like spellskite for high permission and going for Dovescape-Form-Unlife lock. This pretty much wins you the game right away.
where's the high permission in that list?
there are 4 remand and 1 detention sphere. the other 55 cards try to assemble the combo.
i wouldnt even call remand permission, its too tempo
my question is what's tolaria west grabbing outside of boseiju? lotus bloom? that's not something id like to suspend on turn 2/3. is the slow mana even worth having a tutor that only hits 1 land? i guess it hits mistveil too, but fetxhes are so much better at that job, and there's already 4 arid mesa.
and too a far lesser extent, why does this list run meishin MB? it's not about to come down early enough to stop infect, aside from that it makes melira damage combo harder. night of souls' betreyal would be a better option there.
and too a far lesser extent, why does this list run meishin MB? it's not about to come down early enough to stop infect, aside from that it makes melira damage combo harder. night of souls' betreyal would be a better option there.
auramancy is a trap, imo
Yeah, now that Archetype of Imagination is released, I have no clue why Meishin should be in Enduring Ideal anymore. Phyrexian Unlife saves your butt early and seals up Dovescape + Form of the Dragon, and Archetype also seals up Dovescape + Form and shuts down Emrakul. Meishin is like an expensive Archetype that, while it doesn't die to Grim Lavamancer or Murderous Redcap and it can prevent death by combat immediately, can't deal with Emrakul.
Do you always want to play Enduring Ideal as soon as possible, or do you want to hard cast some of the enchantments first?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
If you draw into important enchantments, you have several options. What you do is largely determined by your opponent's deck and the present state of the board. If you look at barley's list, He has doubled up on every important enchantment to minimize needing to hardcast something before enduring ideals. He also has molten psyche to shuffle enchantments back into his deck if he needs to wait until after enduring ideals to grab them.
I personally run mistveil plains, so that it doesn't matter if the enchantments get stuck in hand as I can eventually discard them and put them back into my library. As long as I can still lock my opponents out of the game, I can cast enduring ideals safely knowing that I will eventually hit a mistveil plains. I have noticed that I should really put in a second form of the dragon to avoid random exile effects like bitter ordeal, but I haven't yet gotten around to doing it. I also run possibility storm which will often tuck unwanted enchantments back on the bottom of my library for later use.
Counterspells are still public enemy number one and Silence is still the best white spell at stopping those. Ricochet Trap out of the sb offers a redundancy in that effect, only reactive instead of proactive.
One other discovery I've made is that Stony Silence is terrible in this deck. You don't want to play multiples because they shut off our Blooms and Prisms, which are the only acceleration worth playing without investing a lot of space like Storm or playing green. Damping Matrix is definitely better, and might be the best choice, but it would have to come in for Crystal Ball every time. And I'm not sure if Crystal Ball should ever come out. The card I'm trying at the moment is Pithing Needle. It's so damn versatile I can't believe I hadn't tried it before. It's been very impressive against Pod and Twin and Tron, but I still want more games before I come to a verdict.
1 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
3 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
1 Rugged Prairie
4 Wall of Omens
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
4 Crystal Ball
4 Silence
4 Enduring Ideal
2 Dovescape
3 Phyrexian Unlife
2 Form of the Dragon
3 Blood Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Pithing Needle
4 Wrath of God
3 Rest in Peace
3 Ricochet Trap
1 Blood Moon
So here's what I'm playing now! 24 lands because we want 4 on turn 4 - classic Magic!
I think if you're going to play Possibility Storm, you have to guarantee it's going to do something relevant. The problem is that for every one time it works, it fails three times more often. And that one time it happens the way you want, you get a feeling of overwhelming satisfaction that blindsides you. If the win or loss is basically coming down to how you flip on PS, your deck better come out on top, know what I mean? I was losing games after I resolved PS, which shouldn't happen.
If Possibility Storm is added again, you probably have to play blue for Transmute. There isn't any other way to get around Storm's trigger that I've found. Most likely, the play is to use Tolaria West to find Ornithopter and storm into Emrakul. And obviously drop all other creatures. It's completely separate from the Enduring Ideal package, unless you also add Dizzy Spell and Gitaxian Probe. And drop all other sorcery spells, just like creatures. It can probably fit in the same deck if you want to brew it up.
I've never tried RW without Bloom. I can't imagine it would work though. You need more than four pieces of mana accel, and I can tell you from experience that Desperate Ritual, Pyretic Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide, etc. aren't worth the space. If it nets 2 or more mana, then it's worth considering in my book.
Does anyone know of a way to get an artifact into play after you cast ideal? I was thinking of trying the Mycosynth Lattice, Stony Silence, Ghostly Prison lock but lattice seems like it's too hard to get out.
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
This rebuild started off with 3 copies of Diabolic Tutor but over a year it's gone down to a singleton. The mana base reflects the earlier version that required Black sources. The availability of Black sources in this build has not proved to be a problem though I really should reoptimize the mana base.
Remand is taking the place of Serum Vision. Although the deck is faster with Serum Vision, having a better means of interacting with the early game while blindly drawing seems much better than blindly drawing and scry 2. It does double duty as it stales my opponent's early game a turn (buying me a turn) and it can protect Enduring Ideal or some of my early spells.
The Enchantment package is rather bland but gets down to the point. For a year I use to run Meishin, the Mindcage but it didn't seem as necessary. It's a card I rather not hard cast and if I'm going off on Ideal Phyrexian Unlife served better as a means to not die. I've taken out Meishin and doubled my PhUnlife.
In addition, I use to run 2 copies of Leyline of Sanctity. It is a great card as it can shut down strategies like burn and mill. It also wards against hand disruption. However, its utility in the mainboard is a coin flip (it's either fantastic or a dead card). Leyline has been switched for Spellskite. I really like spellskite because it's never a dead draw in the early game. Skite not only protects me from damage (creature or burn) but it also protects my permanents. It also does not die to Firespout (I run in the main and one in the side that I can wish for).
I need help further sculpting the deck including the sideboard. I would like to cut black out but I need more ways to manipulate the deck in the early stages. I really like Tutor though and I think this deck needs a way to tutor for Enduring Ideal. The sideboard is 5 cards over (it's really 3 cards over since I've only recently been testing spellskites). Are there any cards that I should cut (in general) or run?
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Godless Shrine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Temple Garden
1x Watery Grave
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Stomping Ground
Ramp
3x Glittering Wish
4x Lotus Bloom
3x Wargate
3x Utopia Sprawl
Deck Manipulation
4x Peer Through Depths
4x Remand
1x Diabolic Tutor
End Game
4x Enduring Ideal
1x Dovescape
2x Form of the Dragon
2x Phyrexian Unlife
1x Detention Sphere
1x Copy Enchantment
1x Volition Reins
Early Game Defenses
1x Firespout
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Spellskite
1x Wargate
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Detention Sphere
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Firespout
Control Targets
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Silence
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Spellskite
Restrictions
1x Aura of Silence
1x Rest in Peace
1x Damping Matrix
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Torpor Orb
1x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Ghostly Prison
It may not look it but Curse is very important. It's not there for weenie or token decks but it's there to stop birthing pod and hatebears cold. In those games, Curse + Copy Curse almost always shuts them down. Without Curse, there isn't an enchantment in the entire deck list that shuts down birthing pod completely. Furthermore, Copy Enchantment is very relevant in Tron match ups. I've often had to copy either Volition Reins or Detention Sphere in those games. Admittedly though, Copy Enchantment is a dead card without a target but it's consistently been very useful in situations where I need a second copy of a permanent.
I think you are exactly right. I've rarely had to use Abrupt Decay. In the early game it's rare that I've used Abrupt Decay on the same turn I Wish for it.
Spellskite has probably been the best improvement I've made in this deck as it's taking the slot of 2 Leylines. I've been reluctant to put creatures in this deck simply because it makes my opponent's creature removal active. However unlike Leyline, Spellskite is not often a dead draw. Furthermore, without Spellskite this deck will frequently lose to much faster decks like Infect. Spellskite also stops Splitter Twin. Skite has been brilliant overall. In addition I don't mind if Spellskite gets Pathed (so long as I can fetch a basic).
I don't like Tutor and I don't like having black for one card. I'll definitely play around with See beyond.
Thanks for your feedback!
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Does this deck get any better with the new Devotion cards? We are playing a lot of enchantments which have mana symbols.
No, it doesn't. For one, your enchantments are all in different colors (Sprawl = green, Unlife/Dovescape = white, Form = red, etc).
Secondly, the enchantments are mostly 1/2 ofs, so it's going to be hard to get enough of them down to make a difference. Your main goal is to put them into play with Ideal, not to hardcast them. 1-2 is good for the consistency of the deck - you don't draw them too often (Ideal puts enchantments from your library, not your hand, onto the battlefield) - but bad for trying to achieve high devotion.
Thirdly, the mana costs of the high-devotion enchantments are, as expected, high. This becomes a chicken-and-egg situation: to get high devotion, you need to hardcast a 6+CMC enchantment. But if you manage to do that, you'd be far ahead, so what do you need the extra devotion for?
Lastly, you have to figure out what you want to do even if you have a high devotion in one color. Nykthos into Ideal? It's very rare that you get 3 enchantments down before hitting 7 mana (let alone three of the same color), so Nykthos simply acts as a land that taps for colorless 99% of the time.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Temple Garden
1x Stomping Ground
4x Arid Mesa
1x Plains
1x Mistveil Plains
Win Condition
1x Dovescape
4x Enduring Ideal
2x Form of the Dragon
2x Phyrexian Unlife
Mana Ramp
3x Glittering Wish
4x Lotus Bloom
3x Utopia Sprawl
3x Wargate
4x Peer Through Depths
4x Remand
1x See Beyond
Early Game
1x Detention Sphere
1x Firespout
2x Ghostly Prison
2x Spellskite
Value
1x Copy Enchantment
1x Volition Reins
1x Leyline of Sanctity
Wish Targets
1x Wargate
1x Detention Sphere
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Firespout
Anti-Counterspells
1x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2x Silence
Protection
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Curse of Death's Hold
Combo Distruption
1x Rest in Peace
1x Damping Matrix
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Torpor Orb
1x Aura of Silence
For those of you who havent sseen archetype of illusion
4UU
Enchantment Creature — Human Wizard Uncommon
Creatures you control have flying.
Creatures your opponents control lose flying and can't have or gain flying.
"Is it not the embodiment of our aspirations?"
—Prokopios, astronomer of Meletis
Illus. Robie Trevino #32/165 3/2
Thank you for the analysis. It makes sense to me. I was helping someone else with a more causal enchantment deck (think 4 Ghostly Prison, Mesa Enchantress) and it worked for them, but it was really too casual for actual play. I thought I would drop the idea in here to bounce it around, because I always like the Enduring Ideal decks, its just not too viable because its so very expensive.
Those two enchantments are options, and I have seen them in some builds. They're not very good third cards in the Form + Dovescape partial lock because they can't deal with X/2+'s that are already in play, but they're good fourth cards.
Alternately, there's always Oblivion Ringing/Detention Sphereing Lavamancer and Nevermoreing Ulamog.
I was thinking as a follow up to solidify the lock after form, dove scape, illusion, and finish up with curse stopping anything else. But that may be overkill.
My first post in this tread and I really love the Ideal enginge, and on how flexible it is in terms of buildig it (UWR, UWG, etc. etc.).
I just tried out the Mono-U build of Choosen1 along with the Wish/Wargate Version of Jessica, The Possibility Storm Version (Which is nice, fun, but horrible inconsistent), UWR of all kind, just UW etc. etc.
Most explosive Ideal on turn three was the Wish/Wargate Version with Utopia Sprawl. But only one where I had the Forrest, Sprawl, Wargate and Ideal drawn until turn three. But this is very rare, cause you need so much pieces in hand to go off on turn three. If there are no counter spells on the other side.
For my prefered playstyle, I'll stick on the Mono-U version. It packes so much tech and raw control, and has much answers to problematic match ups, like heavy counter, tron etc. But is a little weaker to Aggro match ups.
Anyway, the winning core of the Deck with 7-10 Cards in total let us build so many diffrent directions on how the deck works, and that is what I love to tinker around with the Ideal Archetype.
Just sharing my thoughts on my testing so far, and more thoughts are to come:)
Greetings from Switzerland
i love the utopian sprawl idea from jessica, i've been using BoP this whole time, and while i havent had as much trouble with removal as one would expect, sprawl seems like such a superior choice.
archetype of imagination is interesting as well, but (with the exception of infect) unlife seems superior.
anyways, heres the list ive been using for some time now, im going to swap BoP's for sprawls as soon as i can get my hands on em.
6 Forest
4 Island
4 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
Spells
1 Lotus bloom
2 Pact of Negation
2 Angel's Grace
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Pentad Prism
4 See Beyond
1 Detention Sphere
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Wargate
1 Dovescape
4 Enduring Ideal
2 Form of the Dragon
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Pact of Negation
1 Angel's Grace
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Suppression Field
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Blood Moon
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Nevermore
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Meishin, The Mind Cage
been debating with myself on -1 pentad prism, +1 wargate. boseiju in the SB because its just slow mana and pain vs non blue decks.
pact of negation seems righteous to me for enduring ideal, after ideal is cast, you wont need mana for anything else. so paying for pact is fine. this makes it the perfect spell to force ideal through.
angel's grace is cute vs twin combos where they tap-out to get the kill. only for you to survive at 1 life. untap, and cast ideal grabbing unlife.
it's decent vs aggro too, so long as they arent holding burn. and it allows pact to be used without having to pay 3UU next upkeep.
Timely smacks aggro, and is never useless unless you're vs combo.
this makes for a weird game-1 that tends to have enough answers to any deck for reasonable a chance at winning, and plenty of favorable matchups against twin-based decks.
game-2 and 3 it turns into bant/5cc hate-enchantments.
1 Detention Sphere
1 Dovescape
4 Enduring Ideal
2 Form of the Dragon
4 Lotus Bloom
1 Meishin, the Mind Cage
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Pentad Prism
1 Phyrexian Unlife
4 Remand
3 See Beyond
1 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Hallowed Fountain
7 Island
1 Mistveil Plains
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolaria West
1 Aura of Silence
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Greater Auramancy
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Nevermore
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Rest in Peace
3 Silence
Exchaning life gain and cards like spellskite for high permission and going for Dovescape-Form-Unlife lock. This pretty much wins you the game right away.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
i wouldnt even call remand permission, its too tempo
my question is what's tolaria west grabbing outside of boseiju? lotus bloom? that's not something id like to suspend on turn 2/3. is the slow mana even worth having a tutor that only hits 1 land? i guess it hits mistveil too, but fetxhes are so much better at that job, and there's already 4 arid mesa.
and too a far lesser extent, why does this list run meishin MB? it's not about to come down early enough to stop infect, aside from that it makes melira damage combo harder. night of souls' betreyal would be a better option there.
auramancy is a trap, imo
Yeah, now that Archetype of Imagination is released, I have no clue why Meishin should be in Enduring Ideal anymore. Phyrexian Unlife saves your butt early and seals up Dovescape + Form of the Dragon, and Archetype also seals up Dovescape + Form and shuts down Emrakul. Meishin is like an expensive Archetype that, while it doesn't die to Grim Lavamancer or Murderous Redcap and it can prevent death by combat immediately, can't deal with Emrakul.
Speaking of Greater Auramancy, is there anything that Perplexing Chimera can deal with that other enchantments (e.g. Dovescape vs. noncreature spells, Unlife/Form vs. death by combat, Leyline of Sanctity vs. infinite Redcaps, Nevermore/Blood Moon vs. Ulamog, Detention Sphere vs. Birthing Pod) can't?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)