Upkeep Silence is one of my favorite plays, right after Silence in response to a cascade trigger. I may or may not have spent a lot of time playing Eggs before I started playing this deck. As for Repeal, I think it looks terrible on paper, but I tried running two of them one night, and immediately decided I was crazy for ever running less than 4. It doesn't quite do anything, but it's pretty close. I missed the buyback something in response to removal mode in my last post.
What are we thinking on the Kite Shield/Spidersilk Net split? Shield is better against Lightning Bolt but Net is better against fliers like Delver, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth, and Signal Pest. I feel like we care about bolt more. I feel like a 3-3 split might work, or a 2-4 in favor of Shield, but I haven't gotten much/any real testing in with Goblin Gaveleer yet, so I'll defer to your experience.
That's great stuff. After winning a couple of games against BR Delver yesterday where I didn't see a Paladin, one with Gavaleer and another with Mentor, I think optimizing the deck to for resilience will make all the difference.
Aid is such a huge addition to this deck! T1 Aid followed by Gavaleer and multiple equips can be amazingly strong. I did some testing after the PPTQ (which I ended up not participating in but I watched the last round at Top 8) and I had 3 games in a row with T1 Aid. The first I retracted twice on T3 with a Pally in play and drew into 2 more Opals & Mass Hysteria and killed with Mentor tokens, the second I started bashing with Gavaleer on T3 and it was good enough, and the third I dropped Mentor on T2 and protected him at instant speed from Bolt/Helix on T3 while tapped out on my opponents turn. There were a lot of people watching us because we had also been doing some legacy testing (ooo legacy, everybody watch!) and the chatter about Sigarda's Aid quickly changed from "jank" to "completely busted" in the space of 3 games.
The concensus among the better players was that Cheerios is still a glass cannon and my response was, "I completely agree. You won't see me bringing this inconsistent piece of crap to Modern Monday." I don't think any of them bought it.
This is off topic but I have to tell you about the Top 8 at our Modern PPTQ yesterday, which was taken by a guy playing Tron who is a young, very strong legacy player. In the Top 4 against Affinity the Tron player is getting overwhelmed by a fast clock and a rapidly growing board. On his turn he attempts to resolve an Oblivian Stone, and the Affinity player responds with Stubborn Denial with Ferocious. Tron players calls a judge and asks if the ferocious trigger goes on the stack on cast or on resolution. The judge replies on resolution and he proceeds to sacrifice a Star for green to Nature's Claim a Cranial Plating so the ferocious trigger won't happen, then draws his card and proceeds to Bolt two creatures so he will live through the next turn at like 2 life. Then he activates the Stone the following the turn and Newlamog the following for the win.
In the last game of the finals the Abzan player combos for 3 billion life on T4 and loses his board to a Stone and then gets milled out by Newlamog. So entertaining to watch!
I just adore the list I was running in a less interactive matchup, but the problem is that my list really requires 4 Repeal in the sideboard, and then there just aren’t enough sideboard options to do everything needed. So, I’ve come around to Sensei(be_lakor)’s list. I'll just have to get a lot better at considering all of the angles with Repeal, and using them wisely!
I’m still a big fan off the aggressiveness of the Glint Hawk, so I thought I would test with a 1/1 split of Ornithopter & Glint Hawk and see how often I wish one was the other, sort of thing. I love the Hawk’s ability to help us keep going if we draw into it mid-combo, as in we really need to draw an equipment of the Puresteel Paladin trigger and being able to play a hawk to get one. The issue is that occasionally in that scenario we have blue available and not white, or more commonly we’re using our last mana and then we’re not going to be able to get both an Opal and a Retract from one more draw step, so unless we happen to draw into a Paradise Mantle to equip to an untapped creature that isn’t summoning sick (a fringe corner case, to say the least) we fizzle. Of course then with a Goblin Gaveleer in play maybe the extra equipment just makes him lethal. So many scenarios!?
Yep, even there, switching from 4 Thoughtcast to 3 Sigarda's Aid, it would tempting to add back an equip instead of a Goblin, although wrong IMHO. The Nox even looks a little like it's taking an equip slot to me at this stage. After hours of goldfishing and playtesting I have become religious about cracking fetches first to thin the deck whenever possible. We just cannot have too high a percentage of equips or threats left in our deck when we are looking for them.
I think I agree on the Thopter over Hawk, but not sure I can bring myself to run two.
Hi FLCL, we don't run Riddlesmith because it doesn't actually net us cards, it just filters, and most of the time we're drawing live mid-combo anyway, with 13 lands, 16-20 0s, 4 Retract and 4 Repeal. It doesn't work as an engine on its own, and I'd rather draw pretty much anything else on a combo turn. Hope that helps! If you are looking to add some wacky card filtering and/or a second engine, Jeskai Ascendency is always a fun one, especially with a Mentor and Mass Hysteria. I think it's a bit slow at 3 mana, but when you go off with it, boy is it fun.
I really don't see how ornithopter is helping the deck. what does it do? Why do we need it?
I also think the decklists being posted have too few threats.
For example, Be_lakor's list runs 6 wincons in a 60 card deck, or 8 conditional wincons (Gaveleer is only a conditional wincon since it only wins if you hit an aid first). Does anyone really think that's enough? Add to this that 2 of the 6 wincons require 3 mana, which is genuinely hard to achieve in a deck with only 13 lands (noting that you should never be casing a mentor off a mox, since that means you've unloaded your hand prematurely).
There seems to be consensus that upping the mentor count won't solve the issues- this just creates a higher risk of fizzling as we never need them in multiples.
This is why I've gone the route of myth realized (4-of) and storm entity (2-3 of). I accept they have faults, but I can't see any possible other solutions.
My amendments to Be_lakor's list would be as follows:
-4 Thoughtcast (thoughtcast helps us rebuild after a fizzle, so I can see it being put back in, but I can't justify the slots in my own builds)
-2 Monastery Mentor (discussed previously, IMO 3 mana is just way too much)
-1 Plains (if we lower the CMC of the deck, 12 is functional. Barely, but functional)
-1 Noxious Revival (good mid-combo, but feels win-more most of the time to me.)
-2 Ornithopter (as per above, I see no reason to run this)
-1 Mass Hysteria (Hawk, gaveleer and myth realized are CMC 1, if cast turn 1, hysteria doesn't speed them up. Paladin does not need haste. Storm Entity has it inbuilt.)
-2 Equipment (not sure about this)
Gives us 13 slots to work with.
Then I would tentatively add:
+4 Myth Realized (CMC 1 that builds up regardless of what else we draw. Immune to bolt. Excellent T1 Play. Not great later game.)
+4 Glint Hawk (Builds up storm for the Myth and entity, resets equipment for gaveleer off the aid. Mediocre beater on its own right.)
+2 Storm Entity (Useless late game, but explosive early game. Same advantages as Myth, but overall cheaper due to not having an activation cost.)
+3 Sigarda's aid -obvious.
The goal is simple: have at least 3 threats by turn 3. Something should get through.
With Sigarda's Aid in the deck, slots are becoming precious. Just 30 minutes ago I was thinking about replacing my 2 Mentors with Myth Realized because then I could also remove Mass Hysteria and gain a slot for either a Muddle (5th Pally) or a Noxious Revival. I may test this, but as Be_lakor mentioned, in some matchups they just always have chump blockers and the lack of trample equals game loss.
The benefit of Mentor is that it goes wide and if you get a Mass Hysteria in play you can attack with all the tokens the turn you make them. I have won games where Grapeshot got countered and then I just swing in for the kill. But, the mana cost is a huge drawback in this deck.
The benefit of Myth Realized is that it is another thing to do on Turn 1 and almost never has summoning sickness when you want to activate it and attack. But, it's only one creature and against decks that go even a little wide it will never get through. By the way I lost to Mono Green Stompy last night in round 2 and the games were so fast we played another 5. It's a horrific matchup, I went 2-5 but it took less than an hour.
I really don't see how ornithopter is helping the deck. what does it do? Why do we need it?
The deal with Ornithopter is you play it T1 and then T2 equip it with a Mantle and it becomes a Mox Opal.
Last night I lost a game where I drew to within 10 cards of the bottom of my deck at storm count 33 and did not hit a third Mox Opal and was unable to cast Grapeshot. It happens. Ornithopter would not have mattered because I had tapped my Glint Hawk for mana already. (I have Glint Hawks in place of thopters.)
There was a guy who ran Myth Realized that posted some videos awhile back. I'd like to watch them again as he was really good at sequencing and he did a couple of subtle things that surprised me and were very strong in the resource management department. I remember he was patient, but I don't remember any of his "moves" specifically. I probably should have won that game and didn't play it perfectly.
Noxious Revival isn't that much win-more. It has very often saved my ass when other cards couldn't.
Absolutely! How many times has this happened?
You: Attempt to resolve a Paladin.
Opponent: Paladin resolves. Path your Paladin.
You: Thanks for the land, and I'll attempt to resolve a Noxious Revival, paying two life for the phyrexian mana cost.
Opponent: Targeting Paladin... Sigh!
I'd say 80% of the times I play Nox I'm putting Retract or Opal on top mid-combo.
APologies if this comes across as bashing or beating a dead horse, just thought I would add the below as food for thought, but just take it as that, my position is very much a thought experiment rather than a zealous defence of my list above (which I have only provided tentatively)
With Sigarda's Aid in the deck, slots are becoming precious. Just 30 minutes ago I was thinking about replacing my 2 Mentors with Myth Realized because then I could also remove Mass Hysteria and gain a slot for either a Muddle (5th Pally) or a Noxious Revival. I may test this, but as Be_lakor mentioned, in some matchups they just always have chump blockers and the lack of trample equals game loss.
The benefit of Mentor is that it goes wide and if you get a Mass Hysteria in play you can attack with all the tokens the turn you make them. I have won games where Grapeshot got countered and then I just swing in for the kill. But, the mana cost is a huge drawback in this deck.
I agree, it may simply be a question of degree. For me, the degree of downside from the myth is less than the degree of downside for the mentor.
The deal with Ornithopter is you play it T1 and then T2 equip it with a Mantle and it becomes a Mox Opal.
But this only produces net positive mana T3, and even then, what are you playing on T3 that needs the mana? If you're playing a mentor, then you need a mantle, a thopter, the mentor itself and two lands- that's 5 cards. Even on the draw with no mulligans, that's only 5 cards left in hand to generate tokens. If you want to retract, that's more mana (and cards) you need in hand, and the thopter doesn't trigger mentor.
If you're t2ing with paladin to reduce the equip cost, this nets you 1 mana, but so does equipping onto other 1-drop, non-thopter, creatures.
You can alternatively equip T1 to net mana T2, but then you're crowding out other T1 plays (hawk, gaveleer, aid, myth...) to merely generate mana.
It also can't be relied on mid-combo since you need haste to generate more than 1 mana, meaning you need to both draw Mass hysteria and also be net one mana up to cast it.
Absolutely! How many times has this happened?
You: Attempt to resolve a Paladin.
Opponent: Paladin resolves. Path your Paladin.
You: Thanks for the land, and I'll attempt to resolve a Noxious Revival, paying two life for the phyrexian mana cost.
Opponent: Targeting Paladin... Sigh![/card]
This hardly ever occurs for me, firstly (aside from path exiling), your opponent should be removalling in response to the first equipment cast. This means you've committed 1 pally (drawn twice), 1 nox, 1 equipment, 2 lands. This means even if the nox fires off, you've got max 4 cards in hand. Christmas aside, that's often not enough to combo off on.
Also, if I replace the nox with, say, a myth realized, then even if pally gets removed, I get a beatstick to hit them in the face with (noting I will have +1 card in hand since nox won't replace one of my draws). The opportunity cost of the nox can be pretty high.
[quote]I'd say 80% of the times I play Nox I'm putting Retract or Opal on top mid-combo.
In terms of mid-combo analysis, in order to correctly evaluate nox, we need to consider the case where it actually contributes to our combo. This is a relatively difficult analysis, but I'll make a start to show my skepticism. Putting a retract on top only helps if we have: one equipment in hand (to draw the retract), one mana up (to cast the retract), a retract in the yard, equipment in play (or else the retract won't net us cards beyond the one we draw with the equipment we already had in hand), and that within range of the number of equipment being retracted is our wincon (typically, more equipment), AND, that there is NO wincon within 1 card of the top (or else we would draw it after casting the last equipment without noxing). This means that we've already successfully started our combo (i.e. already have 2 equipment, a paladin and surplus mana, and had a retract). The math seems hard here, so I won't attempt it, but it seems highly likely that the nox will only actually be of use in a small number of cases. Consider also the opportunity cost of the nox. If I have, say 1 equipment in hand and a myth realized (in place of nox), then I get at least a 1/1. Agreed, this is not great, but its not nothing, and allows for other play sequences (myth before pally), whereas the nox only allows for a few (nox after pally). The question is, in which cases is the nox actually winning us the game where some other card couldn't win us the game (perhaps in different circumstances)? In my view, Myth will be valuable in more circumstances than nox.
We also need to be cautious of confusing fizzling the combo with not winning. If I fizzle because I hit too many Myths, I can still win with said Myths (albeit, this can be very difficult).
Again however, this may be a question of degree. People may find that nox is preferable to myth, and this may be correct. As I have said, I have not done the math, and metagaming may be important here (particularly if you play vs tokens alot).
One more thing which is just food for thought: if you are having trouble getting through with a tall creature, some possibilities are: rancor, which ticks up myth every turn, albeit costing green. fling or blood (not sure how to hyperlink dual cards: flesh//blood), or temur battle rage could be alternatives. I personally don't use these since I don't have the slots and don't like the colours or the mana commitment, but it may be food for thought.
@the_falsehate:
you posted 2 things which are assumedly both playing errors:
1st: You rarely lose a game when Grapeshot gets countered. Unless you either needed that one damage or your opponent played something like Counterflux Storm generates copies on cast like Emrakul places its timewalk on the stack when being cast.
2nd: A Paladin removed with Path to exile gets put in the exile zone. Noxious Revival can't deal with that. The better example might be with Terminate instead of Path.
Yep, Grapeshot was countered with Counterflux, which sees a lot of play in my local meta.
You're also correct that the Path example required another Paladin in the yard, which was the case in the tourney the other night. It was late when I was posting last night and I didn't put in enough details.
The deal with Ornithopter is you play it T1 and then T2 equip it with a Mantle and it becomes a Mox Opal.
But this only produces net positive mana T3, and even then, what are you playing on T3 that needs the mana? If you're playing a mentor, then you need a mantle, a thopter, the mentor itself and two lands- that's 5 cards. Even on the draw with no mulligans, that's only 5 cards left in hand to generate tokens. If you want to retract, that's more mana (and cards) you need in hand, and the thopter doesn't trigger mentor.
If you're t2ing with paladin to reduce the equip cost, this nets you 1 mana, but so does equipping onto other 1-drop, non-thopter, creatures.
You can alternatively equip T1 to net mana T2, but then you're crowding out other T1 plays (hawk, gaveleer, aid, myth...) to merely generate mana.
It also can't be relied on mid-combo since you need haste to generate more than 1 mana, meaning you need to both draw Mass hysteria and also be net one mana up to cast it.
Let me start by saying that I’m not as big a fan of Ornithoper as Be_lakor, but I don’t think you’ve fully considered the impact of its 0 mana cost. It can produce a net mana gain on T2.
Let’s say T1 you play land, thopter, Paradise Mantle, and then Glint Hawk, returning Mantle to hand. T2 you play a second land, Paladin, and then replay the Mantle and equip to the Glint Hawk. You’re drawing cards and trying to go off and if you draw into another Mantle it can be immediately useful for mana as well because the thopter doesn’t have summoning sickness because it was effectively a "free second creature" on T1! This has created many a T2 kill that would never have happened otherwise. Maybe if you didn't win T2 your opponent's top deck would be removal and you end up losing, etc...
I'd say 80% of the times I play Nox I'm putting Retract or Opal on top mid-combo.
In terms of mid-combo analysis, in order to correctly evaluate nox, we need to consider the case where it actually contributes to our combo. This is a relatively difficult analysis, but I'll make a start to show my skepticism. Putting a retract on top only helps if we have: one equipment in hand (to draw the retract), one mana up (to cast the retract), a retract in the yard, equipment in play (or else the retract won't net us cards beyond the one we draw with the equipment we already had in hand), and that within range of the number of equipment being retracted is our wincon (typically, more equipment), AND, that there is NO wincon within 1 card of the top (or else we would draw it after casting the last equipment without noxing). This means that we've already successfully started our combo (i.e. already have 2 equipment, a paladin and surplus mana, and had a retract). The math seems hard here, so I won't attempt it, but it seems highly likely that the nox will only actually be of use in a small number of cases. Consider also the opportunity cost of the nox. If I have, say 1 equipment in hand and a myth realized (in place of nox), then I get at least a 1/1. Agreed, this is not great, but its not nothing, and allows for other play sequences (myth before pally), whereas the nox only allows for a few (nox after pally). The question is, in which cases is the nox actually winning us the game where some other card couldn't win us the game (perhaps in different circumstances)?
I wasn’t trying to provide an example of “Nox is the only card that works here:”. In my games what happens fairly often is I get like 5 equips on a Palladin and I’m tapped out and I draw into a Mox Opal and I’ve got one equipment left in hand (along with a bunch of land in hand usually, Lol!) and I’ve also drawn into a Nox but I don’t have a Retract in hand. If I Nox right then I’m guaranteed to be able to draw the Retract, then drop the Opal in hand to cast it, and I get a fresh Opal in play and draw six more cards. Maybe the next card on top is great anyway, but maybe not. If I can control my own destiny in this way, why wouldn’t I?
As far as Myth goes I think it's a meta call. I ran that card a little while last year and was really disappointed, while others in the forum loved it. It did not perform well in my meta, which had and still has a lot of Aggro/Stompy & Combo decks.
OK, here's the big Ornithopter trick that hasn't been brought up yet: Ornithopter equipped Paradise Mantle can tap for a mana, super useful. The equip is even free with Paladin if you have metalcraft. Then you cast a Retract, bouncing the Ornithopter, along with some other stuff. If you have a Mass Hysteria out, you can replay the Ornithopter and Paradise Mantle and tap if for mana again. Now you have two extra Mox Opals in your deck, and they aren't even legendary.
I'm a huge advocate of Noxious Revival. As stated above, you can use it mid-combo to regrow a Retract, but it's so much more useful than that. If you're forced to discard a card you really need back, just keep it in the bin until your last draw before you need it back. That way, if your opponent casts a second Thoughtseize you can cast Noxious Revival in response. Now that card you needed is safe on top of your library where discard can't touch it. I've also used it to get a couple extra Mentor triggers in response to a removal spell.
As far as threat density goes, I'm planning on running 4 Goblin Gaveleer, 1 Monastery Mentor, 1 Grapeshot and 1 Mass Hysteria in the main. I really don't like Mentor, but I think I still need to play one. Mass Hysteria lets me attack with Gaveleer the turn I play him, as well as allowing for the Mentor kill and Paradise Mantle shenanigans.
I accept it has uses but this is the deal-breaker for me. Everything in this deck is trying to make it more consistent to buy us more cards. Nox works against that strat by being disadvantage, and disadvantage leads to inconsistency, no way around it. If the deck were consistent and had free slots, I'd throw as many noxes as I could in, but failing that I think nox is a trap. its much like silence- excellent in a good hand, but dead in a dead one. And this deck draws a LOT of dead hands.
If anyone were to take anything from my posts, that is the key point: is it dead in a dead hand? Because this deck draws a LOT of dead hands.
Have you ever toyed with Geist of Saint Traft though? It is worth the investment of thre mana.
No, but it seems terrible to me TBH. Doing nothing until t4 is not what this deck wants to do, and by that stage most good modern decks should either have a far larger board presence than Geist can deal with, or should be in lethal range for burning. Either way, seems to me our opponents can effectively ignore it.
Let’s say T1 you play land, thopter, Paradise Mantle, and then Glint Hawk, returning Mantle to hand. T2 you play a second land, Paladin, and then replay the Mantle and equip to the Glint Hawk. You’re drawing cards and trying to go off and if you draw into another Mantle it can be immediately useful for mana as well because the thopter doesn’t have summoning sickness because it was effectively a "free second creature" on T1! This has created many a T2 kill that would never have happened otherwise. Maybe if you didn't win T2 your opponent's top deck would be removal and you end up losing, etc...
OK, here's the big Ornithopter trick that hasn't been brought up yet: Ornithopter equipped Paradise Mantle can tap for a mana, super useful. The equip is even free with Paladin if you have metalcraft. Then you cast a Retract, bouncing the Ornithopter, along with some other stuff. If you have a Mass Hysteria out, you can replay the Ornithopter and Paradise Mantle and tap if for mana again. Now you have two extra Mox Opals in your deck, and they aren't even legendary.
I did consider this, but it just sound christmas. This is what, a 6 or 7 card combo? In what games are we actually pulling this off that we haven't won anyway?
I already covered this one, the problems are the amount of fuel you've consumed before casing the mentor, and you've crowded out any other T1 plays.
That said, as before I still agree with much of what's being said- it may just be a question of degree. I just wanted to record my thoughts in case someone saw the multiple lists with thopter and mentor and assumed that these were agreed between the community.
The first line is useful if you're on the play and have mulled and your only land is a fetch and you scryed something you need to keep to the top, which is something I find myself doing a lot.
The turn two Mentor line doesn't actually run you out of gas. You've only cast one noncreature spell before the Mentor, and you've only spent 5 cards, 2 lands, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Paradise Mantle, and 1 Monastery Mentor. That means you should still have 3 cards in hand if you are on the play and didn't mull. Turn 2 Mentor followed by 3 triggers is just insane. Even if they have removal on their turn, you still have 3 Monks to beat down with.
What are we thinking on the Kite Shield/Spidersilk Net split? Shield is better against Lightning Bolt but Net is better against fliers like Delver, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth, and Signal Pest. I feel like we care about bolt more. I feel like a 3-3 split might work, or a 2-4 in favor of Shield, but I haven't gotten much/any real testing in with Goblin Gaveleer yet, so I'll defer to your experience.
Aid is such a huge addition to this deck! T1 Aid followed by Gavaleer and multiple equips can be amazingly strong. I did some testing after the PPTQ (which I ended up not participating in but I watched the last round at Top 8) and I had 3 games in a row with T1 Aid. The first I retracted twice on T3 with a Pally in play and drew into 2 more Opals & Mass Hysteria and killed with Mentor tokens, the second I started bashing with Gavaleer on T3 and it was good enough, and the third I dropped Mentor on T2 and protected him at instant speed from Bolt/Helix on T3 while tapped out on my opponents turn. There were a lot of people watching us because we had also been doing some legacy testing (ooo legacy, everybody watch!) and the chatter about Sigarda's Aid quickly changed from "jank" to "completely busted" in the space of 3 games.
The concensus among the better players was that Cheerios is still a glass cannon and my response was, "I completely agree. You won't see me bringing this inconsistent piece of crap to Modern Monday." I don't think any of them bought it.
In the last game of the finals the Abzan player combos for 3 billion life on T4 and loses his board to a Stone and then gets milled out by Newlamog. So entertaining to watch!
I’m still a big fan off the aggressiveness of the Glint Hawk, so I thought I would test with a 1/1 split of Ornithopter & Glint Hawk and see how often I wish one was the other, sort of thing. I love the Hawk’s ability to help us keep going if we draw into it mid-combo, as in we really need to draw an equipment of the Puresteel Paladin trigger and being able to play a hawk to get one. The issue is that occasionally in that scenario we have blue available and not white, or more commonly we’re using our last mana and then we’re not going to be able to get both an Opal and a Retract from one more draw step, so unless we happen to draw into a Paradise Mantle to equip to an untapped creature that isn’t summoning sick (a fringe corner case, to say the least) we fizzle. Of course then with a Goblin Gaveleer in play maybe the extra equipment just makes him lethal. So many scenarios!?
I think I agree on the Thopter over Hawk, but not sure I can bring myself to run two.
Why doesn't this deck run riddlesmith as a poor man's 5-8 puresteel paladin? Seems pretty strong tbh
I also think the decklists being posted have too few threats.
For example, Be_lakor's list runs 6 wincons in a 60 card deck, or 8 conditional wincons (Gaveleer is only a conditional wincon since it only wins if you hit an aid first). Does anyone really think that's enough? Add to this that 2 of the 6 wincons require 3 mana, which is genuinely hard to achieve in a deck with only 13 lands (noting that you should never be casing a mentor off a mox, since that means you've unloaded your hand prematurely).
There seems to be consensus that upping the mentor count won't solve the issues- this just creates a higher risk of fizzling as we never need them in multiples.
This is why I've gone the route of myth realized (4-of) and storm entity (2-3 of). I accept they have faults, but I can't see any possible other solutions.
My amendments to Be_lakor's list would be as follows:
-4 Thoughtcast (thoughtcast helps us rebuild after a fizzle, so I can see it being put back in, but I can't justify the slots in my own builds)
-2 Monastery Mentor (discussed previously, IMO 3 mana is just way too much)
-1 Plains (if we lower the CMC of the deck, 12 is functional. Barely, but functional)
-1 Noxious Revival (good mid-combo, but feels win-more most of the time to me.)
-2 Ornithopter (as per above, I see no reason to run this)
-1 Mass Hysteria (Hawk, gaveleer and myth realized are CMC 1, if cast turn 1, hysteria doesn't speed them up. Paladin does not need haste. Storm Entity has it inbuilt.)
-2 Equipment (not sure about this)
Gives us 13 slots to work with.
Then I would tentatively add:
+4 Myth Realized (CMC 1 that builds up regardless of what else we draw. Immune to bolt. Excellent T1 Play. Not great later game.)
+4 Glint Hawk (Builds up storm for the Myth and entity, resets equipment for gaveleer off the aid. Mediocre beater on its own right.)
+2 Storm Entity (Useless late game, but explosive early game. Same advantages as Myth, but overall cheaper due to not having an activation cost.)
+3 Sigarda's aid -obvious.
The goal is simple: have at least 3 threats by turn 3. Something should get through.
anyway, my cards should finally arrive in the next day or two, so I'll throw some spaghetti to the wall and see what sticks, so to speak....
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
The benefit of Mentor is that it goes wide and if you get a Mass Hysteria in play you can attack with all the tokens the turn you make them. I have won games where Grapeshot got countered and then I just swing in for the kill. But, the mana cost is a huge drawback in this deck.
The benefit of Myth Realized is that it is another thing to do on Turn 1 and almost never has summoning sickness when you want to activate it and attack. But, it's only one creature and against decks that go even a little wide it will never get through. By the way I lost to Mono Green Stompy last night in round 2 and the games were so fast we played another 5. It's a horrific matchup, I went 2-5 but it took less than an hour.
I like the primer pick! +1
The deal with Ornithopter is you play it T1 and then T2 equip it with a Mantle and it becomes a Mox Opal.
Last night I lost a game where I drew to within 10 cards of the bottom of my deck at storm count 33 and did not hit a third Mox Opal and was unable to cast Grapeshot. It happens. Ornithopter would not have mattered because I had tapped my Glint Hawk for mana already. (I have Glint Hawks in place of thopters.)
There was a guy who ran Myth Realized that posted some videos awhile back. I'd like to watch them again as he was really good at sequencing and he did a couple of subtle things that surprised me and were very strong in the resource management department. I remember he was patient, but I don't remember any of his "moves" specifically. I probably should have won that game and didn't play it perfectly.
Absolutely! How many times has this happened?
You: Attempt to resolve a Paladin.
Opponent: Paladin resolves. Path your Paladin.
You: Thanks for the land, and I'll attempt to resolve a Noxious Revival, paying two life for the phyrexian mana cost.
Opponent: Targeting Paladin... Sigh!
I'd say 80% of the times I play Nox I'm putting Retract or Opal on top mid-combo.
I agree, it may simply be a question of degree. For me, the degree of downside from the myth is less than the degree of downside for the mentor.
But this only produces net positive mana T3, and even then, what are you playing on T3 that needs the mana? If you're playing a mentor, then you need a mantle, a thopter, the mentor itself and two lands- that's 5 cards. Even on the draw with no mulligans, that's only 5 cards left in hand to generate tokens. If you want to retract, that's more mana (and cards) you need in hand, and the thopter doesn't trigger mentor.
If you're t2ing with paladin to reduce the equip cost, this nets you 1 mana, but so does equipping onto other 1-drop, non-thopter, creatures.
You can alternatively equip T1 to net mana T2, but then you're crowding out other T1 plays (hawk, gaveleer, aid, myth...) to merely generate mana.
It also can't be relied on mid-combo since you need haste to generate more than 1 mana, meaning you need to both draw Mass hysteria and also be net one mana up to cast it.
In terms of mid-combo analysis, in order to correctly evaluate nox, we need to consider the case where it actually contributes to our combo. This is a relatively difficult analysis, but I'll make a start to show my skepticism. Putting a retract on top only helps if we have: one equipment in hand (to draw the retract), one mana up (to cast the retract), a retract in the yard, equipment in play (or else the retract won't net us cards beyond the one we draw with the equipment we already had in hand), and that within range of the number of equipment being retracted is our wincon (typically, more equipment), AND, that there is NO wincon within 1 card of the top (or else we would draw it after casting the last equipment without noxing). This means that we've already successfully started our combo (i.e. already have 2 equipment, a paladin and surplus mana, and had a retract). The math seems hard here, so I won't attempt it, but it seems highly likely that the nox will only actually be of use in a small number of cases. Consider also the opportunity cost of the nox. If I have, say 1 equipment in hand and a myth realized (in place of nox), then I get at least a 1/1. Agreed, this is not great, but its not nothing, and allows for other play sequences (myth before pally), whereas the nox only allows for a few (nox after pally). The question is, in which cases is the nox actually winning us the game where some other card couldn't win us the game (perhaps in different circumstances)? In my view, Myth will be valuable in more circumstances than nox.
We also need to be cautious of confusing fizzling the combo with not winning. If I fizzle because I hit too many Myths, I can still win with said Myths (albeit, this can be very difficult).
Again however, this may be a question of degree. People may find that nox is preferable to myth, and this may be correct. As I have said, I have not done the math, and metagaming may be important here (particularly if you play vs tokens alot).
One more thing which is just food for thought: if you are having trouble getting through with a tall creature, some possibilities are: rancor, which ticks up myth every turn, albeit costing green. fling or blood (not sure how to hyperlink dual cards: flesh//blood), or temur battle rage could be alternatives. I personally don't use these since I don't have the slots and don't like the colours or the mana commitment, but it may be food for thought.
Yep, Grapeshot was countered with Counterflux, which sees a lot of play in my local meta.
You're also correct that the Path example required another Paladin in the yard, which was the case in the tourney the other night. It was late when I was posting last night and I didn't put in enough details.
Let me start by saying that I’m not as big a fan of Ornithoper as Be_lakor, but I don’t think you’ve fully considered the impact of its 0 mana cost. It can produce a net mana gain on T2.
Let’s say T1 you play land, thopter, Paradise Mantle, and then Glint Hawk, returning Mantle to hand. T2 you play a second land, Paladin, and then replay the Mantle and equip to the Glint Hawk. You’re drawing cards and trying to go off and if you draw into another Mantle it can be immediately useful for mana as well because the thopter doesn’t have summoning sickness because it was effectively a "free second creature" on T1! This has created many a T2 kill that would never have happened otherwise. Maybe if you didn't win T2 your opponent's top deck would be removal and you end up losing, etc...
I wasn’t trying to provide an example of “Nox is the only card that works here:”. In my games what happens fairly often is I get like 5 equips on a Palladin and I’m tapped out and I draw into a Mox Opal and I’ve got one equipment left in hand (along with a bunch of land in hand usually, Lol!) and I’ve also drawn into a Nox but I don’t have a Retract in hand. If I Nox right then I’m guaranteed to be able to draw the Retract, then drop the Opal in hand to cast it, and I get a fresh Opal in play and draw six more cards. Maybe the next card on top is great anyway, but maybe not. If I can control my own destiny in this way, why wouldn’t I?
As far as Myth goes I think it's a meta call. I ran that card a little while last year and was really disappointed, while others in the forum loved it. It did not perform well in my meta, which had and still has a lot of Aggro/Stompy & Combo decks.
Here's a couple other Ornithopter lines:
Turn 1: land, Ornithopter
Turn 2: Sigarda's Aid, Paradise Mantle, Puresteel Paladin
Turn 1: land, Ornithopter, Paradise Mantle equip
Turn 2: land, Monastery Mentor
I'm a huge advocate of Noxious Revival. As stated above, you can use it mid-combo to regrow a Retract, but it's so much more useful than that. If you're forced to discard a card you really need back, just keep it in the bin until your last draw before you need it back. That way, if your opponent casts a second Thoughtseize you can cast Noxious Revival in response. Now that card you needed is safe on top of your library where discard can't touch it. I've also used it to get a couple extra Mentor triggers in response to a removal spell.
As far as threat density goes, I'm planning on running 4 Goblin Gaveleer, 1 Monastery Mentor, 1 Grapeshot and 1 Mass Hysteria in the main. I really don't like Mentor, but I think I still need to play one. Mass Hysteria lets me attack with Gaveleer the turn I play him, as well as allowing for the Mentor kill and Paradise Mantle shenanigans.
Great work on the banner Be_lakor! It's perfect.
I accept it has uses but this is the deal-breaker for me. Everything in this deck is trying to make it more consistent to buy us more cards. Nox works against that strat by being disadvantage, and disadvantage leads to inconsistency, no way around it. If the deck were consistent and had free slots, I'd throw as many noxes as I could in, but failing that I think nox is a trap. its much like silence- excellent in a good hand, but dead in a dead one. And this deck draws a LOT of dead hands.
If anyone were to take anything from my posts, that is the key point: is it dead in a dead hand? Because this deck draws a LOT of dead hands.
No, but it seems terrible to me TBH. Doing nothing until t4 is not what this deck wants to do, and by that stage most good modern decks should either have a far larger board presence than Geist can deal with, or should be in lethal range for burning. Either way, seems to me our opponents can effectively ignore it.
I'll be honest, this sounds Christmas to me.
I did consider this, but it just sound christmas. This is what, a 6 or 7 card combo? In what games are we actually pulling this off that we haven't won anyway?
This works with any 1-drop, not just thopter.
I already covered this one, the problems are the amount of fuel you've consumed before casing the mentor, and you've crowded out any other T1 plays.
That said, as before I still agree with much of what's being said- it may just be a question of degree. I just wanted to record my thoughts in case someone saw the multiple lists with thopter and mentor and assumed that these were agreed between the community.
The turn two Mentor line doesn't actually run you out of gas. You've only cast one noncreature spell before the Mentor, and you've only spent 5 cards, 2 lands, 1 Ornithopter, 1 Paradise Mantle, and 1 Monastery Mentor. That means you should still have 3 cards in hand if you are on the play and didn't mull. Turn 2 Mentor followed by 3 triggers is just insane. Even if they have removal on their turn, you still have 3 Monks to beat down with.