Most of the games I've won with Sigils were either UW Control or W/x Hatebears. Typically each Sigil was for about 7, but sometimes they were as high as 10. The reason it works is that the first Sigil usually happens the turn after Paladin came down, so the sequence is a two-turn clock with Swing 7, Second Sigil, swing lethal while Grapeshot (useless as a Storm win for whatever reason) clears away blockers. The reason they didn't kill me first is because other decks don't win on Turn 3.
Typically, this line of play is because of something preventing a Storm turn but not a safe Paladin. Canonist, Thalia, Leyline, storm hate such as Mindbreak Trap. You can be convinced our not, but it's just fact that I've done it enough that I dislike going below 3 Sigils at any given time.
I never meant to imply that EtW is just better than Mentor. Each is better at some things than the other. Mentor is the best of the two at covering Paladin's specific weaknesses while maintaining high speed, which is why Mentor is a 4-of and EtW is a 1-of (also because it's easier on colors). But EtW is still very capable as a 5th Mentor that covers slightly different bases for increased flexibility and consistency.
I'm not sure what's wrong with a maindeck Sacred Foundry... Unless you're worried about the extra shock?? It simply gives me consistent access to the deck's third color (Grapeshot) and allows easy support of EtW sideboard with forcing 4 or more colors, which would probably either take sideboard slots or weaken the manabase maindeck (such as a Godless Shrine when nothing is black maindeck, meaning one less blue source and a shock without adding anything).
I will update the OP sometime today or Friday.
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Typically each Sigil was for about 7, but sometimes they were as high as 10. ... The reason they didn't kill me first is because other decks don't win on Turn 3
Sorry I'm not following, but here's the disconnect: most decks I'm not seeing 7+ mana, and certainly not on turn 3. Against UW control and Hatebears, do you mean they didn't have an answer for paladin t6, or sigil t7? How is that related to t3?
If you get to cast a Sigil for 7 and equip it to a paladin, and then grapeshot to clear away blockers, do you mean that you needed the grapeshot for a small number AND couldn't go off? That's surprising to me, particularly on t7 with so much open mana. Wouldn't the combo have just been easier than swinging twice? How did hatebears not have any artifact/ench removal by t7, and how did UW not have a counter/verdict/spot removal for either the paladin OR the sigil by t7?
I'm cutting the EtW side for a Void Snare for hate permanents. Same with Mindbreak Trap, there's no reason with silence in the deck to walk into it. Just keep looping until a silence resolves, then win. Revival the silence if it's countered. Other storm decks have reasons to consider going super-wide with EtW, but we dont share those constraints, with the ability to tutor up 2 mana bullets and dig for 1 mana bullets. Between silence, void snare, echoing truth, and the ability to recur them (revival) we shouldn't have a problem with a hate permanent or a single counter. Mindbreak Trap and its ilk (Counterflux) should not be scary cards, because we have silence (or pact, w/e).
You've convinced me on the Hurkyl's Recall, if only so I can run 2 echoing truth main (less need to waste a revival when we need a mini-retract AND a leyline bounce)
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EDIT
As to the sacred foundry, we should always plan to start at a virtual 12, and anticipate needing all 4 Noxious Revival. That's an absurdly low amount for burn, which represents a real % of (most) metas. Assuming ~2 from fetches each game, we start at 10 against an equipped opponent. Because we may need to muddle, maximizing blue sources should be an absolute priority. At the same time, I don't think we want less than 2 plains for path. I've updated my list here - the land looks like:
More generally: 10 fetches, must always fetch plains, 4 must fetch island, no more than 2 non-blue sources, minimize path blowout, minimize life loss. Without the last two requirements Foundry is perfectly fine, but I find the last two absolutely vital. Without EtW I'll never need red unless I'm going off, in which case Mox Opal is right there.
No, I mean they didn't have an answer for Sigil for 7 on turn 3 or 4. You actually do usually see that amount of mana, you just don't realize it because of the way you utilize it. When partially going off, you are almost guaranteed to find multiple lands, at least one Paradise Mantle, and at least 2 Opals. That means that you can untap on turn 3 with 3 lands and an Opal for 4 mana immediately. On turn 4 you have 4 lands, a higher chance of seeing more Opals and having extra Paladins, and can easily manage 7 mana. Burning Opals to do this quickly isn't really an issue, because each turn you get your next land drop. Against Thalia, you only get to effectively use 1 Opal for this line of play, but it works out the same: pay 1 for Opal, untap next turn and have +1 land and an Opal and a Mantle.
This did not happen on turn 7. There was not this much "open mana". And in the face of most things that force this line of play, the combo is simply not a possible option. How do you propose going off fully through Thalia without Grapeshotting her first?
Edit: For reference, the first time I have a record of doing it, I mentioned it in post #74 of this thread. In fairness I also was still ok with Gemstone Caverns at the time, so there's a certain element of adolescence, but I did do it, and repeated it in other matches.
Gemstone Caverns are definitely good sideboard material. I just rolled over Scapeshift and Storm today, and faced a pretty bad looking GW ramp deck. He kept playing until the fourth game, where I went, turn 1 Pally, and he Path'd it. Turn 2 I went, Spoils for Pally, cast Pally, Retract, go off and he ragequit tot he second Retract.
I won a game through Thorn of Amethyst by dropping two Paladins and drawing through to a third one, then dropping Sigils for 7 every turn while using an occasional Grapeshot to clear his board.
For the time (when Caverns were in the SB) that seems like a reasonable answer to a resolved Thalia. Today, I'm not convinced. We've added 4 Muddle to find Echoing Truth for EoT bounce, and post SB I'd bring in a second echoing. The early lists ran Spoils, which makes 1-ofs less safe (nevermind the burn matchup) so I think we'd just be talking past each other.
If it turns out 4 muddle + 2 echoing isn't enough to take care of thalia-effects (relevant - doesn't hit transmute) then I'd bring in 4 Mentors instead, and drop 1 or 2 equipment a turn through thalia and keep building up a swarm of prowess creatures - they're probably not keeping sweepers in.
But again, I think we're talking about different stages of the deck's life. I think that the tools available now change the landscape significantly - we haven't run 2 Noxious Revival in the SB for a long time, and that upends the tradeoffs of grapeshot-as-a-boardwipe. With the ability to transmute echoing truth t3, bounce t4 and go off or bounce eot t4 and untap without thalia t5, she doesn't seem scary.
Same with Rule of Law, etc. Transmute is an ability, and doesn't get hit by the "one spell per turn" tax. Transmute, paladin, untap bounce go off.
I have decided that retract is too good not to play. So here is my new build. I used the fetch lands that I had laying around. Does anyone have any good sideboard plans besides Wear//Tear for Leyline of Sanctity? Played turn one Paladin into turn two Paladin/Retract win against a durdly creature deck. Seems good against a slow metagame, even won with double Glint Hawk beat down.
Does anyone have any good sideboard plans besides Wear//Tear for Leyline of Sanctity? Played turn one Paladin into turn two Paladin/Retract win against a durdly creature deck. Seems good against a slow metagame, even won with double Glint Hawk beat down.
This doesn't even feel like the same deck to be honest. Echoing Truth has been and will continue to be a great answer, probably better that Wear/Tear for our deck. What is Glint Hawk doing here? Why more than 1 Grapeshot? Without 4x Muddle the Mixture, what happens when you don't see Paladin all game?
Please don't misunderstand this for distaste - off-the-wall brewing is what lets decks like Cheeri0s happen at all, but this feels like a significant deviation from the core of what makes Cheeri0s consistent.
Question for everyone playing the deck. Would Gemstone Caverns work as a replacement for Mox Opal, or could it be run along side the opal? I wouldn't expect the "exile a card" clause to be a big downside in this deck with so many redundant artifacts.
Edit: just noticed someone mentioned it on the first page with a short response. Is the biggest issue the fact that you will only get the mana if you are on the draw? Wouldn't this be good after game 1 & 2?
I tried it out, 2 in the board for when I was on the draw, it really sucks to draw it and have the colorless screw you over or draw a second one and have the Legendary screw you over, overall I don't think it is worth these risks.
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PAPER FINISHES FOR OUR BABY!! The list below got 3rd at SCG States South Carolina, losing to either Burn or Junk in the semi-finals. Mentor is awesome.
His sideboard is a little wonky, and the maindeck Mentor is a really interesting call. I've been pretty set on playing it in the sideboard, but I think I'm still going to try Silences in those maindeck slots.
Edit: Sarnath'd by kenshin! And wow, look at his enthusiasm =D
Greetings All!! I'm Stephen D, the pilot of Cheerios in States this past Sunday. They misspelled my last name, which sucks, but they will fix it eventually lol.
Straight to the point to answer as many questions about my list as possible: 21 Cheerios is very doable, with 20 post-board for space concerns. We can still win on turn 2 with 20 cereal, so don't worry about it. Having 3 Noxious Revival is perfectly fine. I noticed that I sided one out more frequently than I liked, and cutting it has had no determinable impact thus far. Maindeck Mentor allows us to go wide instead of up if we can't find Paladin, but what I learned was that 8 cards to start with isn't enough. (4 Paladin, 4 Muddle) This moves the number of keepable hands up even harder, up to 11 cards we want to see in our opener, instead of the semi-sketchy 8. And yes, it was relevant. I did attack Affinity and Burn to death. I lost to burn, but that guy was drawing perfectly, all throughout the tourney. Twas unreal.
Sideboard seems wonky, but it hits what I feel to be the hardest matchups. Batwing Brume is purely for Twin decks, as Muddle doesn't stop them from going off, so we have 2 plans post board against them. We kill them, or they kill them. Cavern for our Human friends. Gut shot for Spirit of the Labyrinth and Thalia, which shut us out, and also gives us game against Infect and Affinity (the lands anyway.) Silence for Red White decks to punch through removal, and Angel's Grace for Ad Naseum (they draw their deck and lose, haha), Burn (Eidolon of the Great Revel is very very bad), Scapeshift (since they are tapped out the turn they go off giving us a chance to win the next turn), etc.
I have been pushing this list through match after match to grind all the numbers, and I think I am very close to a super optimal list. I have numerous turn 2 wins throughout the day, even through Leyline, and enough turn 3 kills to go around.
To Serene, Silence is a strong card in the main, I cannot lie, but most of our opponents are likely to be setting up during the first 3 turns of the game, and I feel that gunning for it during those 3 turns is key to taking them by surprise, which I did.
Funny story, in the top 8 my first opponent cast Fracturing Gust on me when I cast a Grapeshot with 24 storm. He went to 50, and I lost a lot of cereal and an Opal, then to 26 when it resolved. Still enough gas to kill him.
Don't let anyone talk you down guys. This deck is real.
I'm glad you agree that 8 cards maindeck is not quite optimal. I thought I was going soft when we moved to the new manabase and I was forced to leave behind Plunges as spare Tutors. When I was on the black all-in lists, I ran 4/4 Spoils and Plunge. Maindeck Mentor covers that very nicely, though I wish he was either 2cmc (to maximize Muddle) or didn't die to everything Paladin does (Bolt, Path, Decay). This is actually why I feel silence is maindeckable; it prevents literally everything outside of Turn 1 Discard (or Spell Pierce Path?). But, as you point out, it effectively lowers consistency by requiring two cards, instead of raising it by adding gas. I will try maindeck Mentors when I play GP Charlotte. Come up in July and rep with me!
I figured Brume was for Twin, but I hadn't really considered them tough. Don't we just race them really well? Are they using more removal than they used to?
I think maybe all 4 Caverns, and possibly the 4th Mentor. I'm not sure how I would reorganize it just yet. I love that Mentor simultaneously replaces Paladin and Empty the Warrens whenever he's needed.
Grace to beat Eidolon is pure genius.
21 equips feels fine for me, I prefer 22-23 but it's still very much in the butter zone. The realization that 24 was not optimal was actually very important in progressing the deck. Any space at all in this deck is huge and allows for wild variations and deep innovative thinking.
Congratulations, Stephen, and THANK YOU! Thank you for playing, innovating, raising the profile, and most of all, thanks for having fun and making the Magic world a little bit happier!
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
In fact, we don't really race the blue red decks as well as we would hope. They are packing bolts and electrolyze and such to gun down the paladin, and outside of the turn one cantrip, they don't really tap out unless they are going for the win, which is why I opted for Brume in the board. We can bait the Paladin, let him die by 'trying' to go for it, and when they go for it next turn we snag them.
I also wish that Mentor was a 3 drop, but sadly it isn't so. I've tried other 2 drops such as Riddlesmith (no no) and Erayo (always lose when he flips, believe it or not), but nothing. I couldn't find anything of value, and while Myth Realized is bonkers, its basically another Grapeshot (one thing that hits hard). I felt that going wider would work, and to be fair, I was rewarded for it.
I think 3 is the number to go for right now... we could get away with 2, which is what I do post-board against decks that I simply want to race with Paladin.
4 Caverns is a lot lol, and one of the matchups where we want them is the same matchup I want to be casting Brume, which makes 4 slightly awkward, pushing me into 3. 4 may be the right call in Charlotte, depending on how the meta has evolved up to then.
Thank for serenechaos. I toyed with an idea similar to yours for a bit, and when I stumbled upon this forum I really liked the idea. It seems we have all gone through similar evolutions, but I think this one now is the one to run, at least in the coming weeks. 11 cards that we can win with makes your opening hands so much better, and mulligans don't hurt nearly as bad with so much gas. I'm glad to have been (or currently be) the bannerman for Cheerios, and to show the players that what we have is the fastest deck in Modern.
Congrats on the finish! Anyway, I am so playing this! Also, could you give a detailed breakdown of all your matches (or what you can remember ). Thanks!
Here are the matches guys! Shout out to the random gentleman who's name I cannot remember for letting me borrow a Monastery Mentor. (My buddy traded for one so that I would have the third one, but left it at home, haha)
Round 1: Affinity (Previous Premier IQ Winner Joseph Greer)
To be fair, I forgot who won the die roll. I saw the robots begin to populate the field on turn one, and I simply played a fetch. He attacks, and I crack the fetch, then follow it up with another land. He attacks one more time, and proceeds to die to a Grapeshot on my third turn. I sideboard Silence and Gut Shot to fight back a bit and be aggressive against Galvanic Blast and the like. Much like game 1, on my third turn my library finds its way into my hand and we sign the slip 2-0 me.
My opponents sitting on my right decided to mulligan, and in the time it took them to finish the mulligan, we were shuffling up for game two. "I've got a need.. A need for speed."
Round 2: Affinity
Game one was awesome here. And by awesome I mean that I mulliganed into an awkward hand and die having only played 1-2 lands. I know he's on robots, and as such I don't sideboard much as his list looked quite standard with no funny stuff going on. I keep my six game two, which consists of 2 shields 3 lands and retract. I start with a shock land and he plays Ornithoper and some random artifact and then Thoughtseizes me turn one, and he has no idea what is going on, which is great. He takes a shield (lol) and when I draw for my turn my prayers are answered: Monastery Mentor. I play another land and pass and he drops Ravager. I drop Mentor and 2 shields (yay draw steps giving me cards) and have 2 monks. He plays Etched Champion, and at this point his board is 3 lands Ravager Champion Ornithopter and Springleaf Drum. On my turn I cast Retract, Shield Shield and crash in for 13 damage. He opts to sac enough stuff to bring the Champion to a 5/5 and trade with the Mentor, as he lost metalcraft in the process, and my 5 monks get there. (YES) Game three I keep a strong 7, jamming 2 Paladins and ending the game rather fast. I think this was a turn 2 kill.
Round 3: Burn
This is such a silly matchup for me, haha. I go for the turn 2 win and he tapped out turn one for a Swiftspear. While I do fizzle, I have a Paladin that also happens to be a 3/12. He can't kill the paladin, so he jams Eidolon of the Great Revel, which is basically puttting a gun to my head. On my turn I take the two to cast Accorder's Shield, giving my paladin Vigilance, and I begin to attack and attack and attack until my opponent is sitting at 4 life. He goes to two casting a Lightning Helix, which eats a Muddle the Mixture, and at 2 life, he really can't cast spells to do anything, and dies shortly after. Game two he starts with double Leyline of Sanctity, and I draw nothing of value and die. Sad times. Game three he starts with Leyline again, and I start with a Godless Shrine tapped. He fetches a basic mountain and suspends Rift Bolt. He tapped out on turn one, so OBVIOUSLY I'm gonna go for it. He dies turn 2 as I draw the vast majority of my deck, Echoing Truth the Leyline, and Grapeshot for the kill.
Round 4: Scapeshift
We had quite the number of people from Augusta come up with us, and I got paired down against one of our number. With a 2-1 record against my 3-0, he scooped to me here to put me at 4-0, as it put me straight through to top 8 and allowed us to get some much needed food. I am grateful that teamwork came through here, as battling a teammate is something I never like doing.
Rounds 5-6: ID to top 8
At this point, I've gotten a lot of funny looks and the turn 2 kill through Leyline has gotten a good deal of attention, so I needlessly stress myself out for a bit before top 8 starts.
Quarterfinals: Little Abzan
I start us off as I am the higher seed and I keep my hand. I play land and he follows with Noble Heirarch. I play another land and pass, and he jams Loxodon Smiter (that's big). I end up playing a Paladin and fizzle, so he jams another beef stick. He dies to Grapeshot the following turn.
Game 2 he starts with Leyline, and I keep a hand without Paladin, but everything else needed to go off. Long story short, he plays creatures and attacks me, and I die. Game three was epic though. Of all the top 8 matches, no one really seemed to care what was happening at the other tables, but basically stood behind me the entire time. We start off just like we did game one, save the fact that he has a Leyline, haha. I end up with 3 Paladins in play and proceed to draw all but 2 cards, and with my lands and Paradise Mantle and bounce the Leyline and Grapeshot, to which HE RESPONDS WITH FRACTURING GUST. I lose an Opal and a bunch of cereal, and he goes to a whopping 50 health, before the Grapeshot brings him down to 26. I tank for a minute, and everyone is like, 'wow' because, well, I've seemingly lost the game. I go through the three separate piles of my hand, considering I have so many cards (props to the guy behind me who said 'needs moar Reliquary Tower'), I drop the last 4 equipment, drawing my last 2 cards, then use my 3 remaining Retracts and Noxious Revivals to double the storm count, return the Grapeshot to my deck, draw it, and kill him anyway. This brought cheers from the crowd, hugs and high-fives from friends and people I don't know alike. Best game of magic all day, hands down. (having a stupidly high storm count really wasn't necessary, but I loved it, he loved it, and the crowd loved it, so yeah)
Semis: Perfect Burn
I call this deck perfect burn, as every game of magic this kid played he drew spot of perfect the entire time. Turns two and three Eidolon against me and my friends almost every game (always had one on turn two), perfect draws... it was crazy. I did not have hands that could go off fast enough to get past the Eidolon, and my adventure ends there.
Yes, I realize that I got a little bit lucky that my friend Tristan decided to scoop to me in round 4, but look where it got us. Probably the luckier part was the fact that I got to sit next to everyone playing Splinter Twin, rather than across from them.
@Lou: Thanks for the report and for taking the time to write it up. Excited to hear about your finishes and think ahead to translating this into more regular results.
I have a few concerns about the matches presented in this report. This isn't so much directed at Lou as it is directed at all of us as players, and in general at matchup reports.
First, there is a tendency in reporting matches to attribute any wins to playskill and deck power, and attribute losses to bad luck. Lou's report doesn't have this problem nearly as much as other reports I have seen, but it's still present. Instead of writing off losses as our own bad luck and/or the good luck of an opponent, we need to think how we can read those moments for improvement areas. Here's an example of this at play:
"Game one was awesome here. And by awesome I mean that I mulliganed into an awkward hand and die having only played 1-2 lands."
When I read this, I don't see bad luck. I see inconsistent mulligans and challenges in the opening hand. That observation is totally backed up both by my own testing, other matchup reports, and the lists themselves, which can be very land-light. While this might be a necessary consequence of the deck, it's also something we need to think about with respect to larger events. If we lose some % of our games to mulligans, how is that going to play out at a GP where we need to go X-2 on day 1? Especially if we don't have byes going into the event? This could suggest deckbuilding changes to improve our mulligans.
"Game 2 he starts with Leyline, and I keep a hand without Paladin, but everything else needed to go off. Long story short, he plays creatures and attacks me, and I die."
Here's the mulligan issue again. The hand looks good but because it's missing that one critical piece, it can't go the distance. This is a big issue in our deck because we don't have the same kind of cantrips that we see in other combo decks like Storm or Ad Nauseam, and we don't have the same kind of alternate win routes and game paces as we see in Twin. This could also influence deckbuilding decisions when trying to smooth out lists.
"I did not have hands that could go off fast enough to get past the Eidolon, and my adventure ends there."
I don't read this and see a "kid" who gets "perfect" draws. I read this and see we have a serious problem in the 44%ish of games where Burn is going to start with an Eidolon in their opening 7. That worries me because Burn is right around 10% of the metagame, which means we have a very real chance of autolosing 1-2 of our Burn games to this card. Again, the opportunity here is for deckbuilding (more removal? more interaction?) and not for blaming bad luck.
All of this is to say that we need to read between the lines in losses. To me, Lou's report indicates that we are playing a fragile, high variance deck, not that anyone is more/less lucky than their opponents. To some extent, we already knew we are playing a fragile, high variance deck, but this just confirms it and shows how that can be both good and bad at a tournament.
My second big concern with the matchup report is the number of games that didn't get played. We are looking at two IDs to get into the T8, and then an intentional scoop from a friend to seal it. That's not the kind of steamrolling performance I would hope for, especially if I was sleeving this up for a GP.
The big point in this is that we need more testing and more critical assessment of the lists and the sideboard. PARTICULARLY the sideboard, because our main 60 has a lot less flexibility than most other decks, and we need to draw a lot of strength from our board. We have spent a lot of time crafting that main 60, but probably not nearly enough time on the sideboard. This can be very dangerous, given that you are playing at least as many sideboard games as game 1s, and in reality it's probably many more. Lou made some interesting suggestions and ideas for the board, but that's where a lot more testing needs to take place.
Since the deck has such a high artifact count, and Muddle the Mixture can tutor for it, would a 1-of Cranial Plating be worth it?
We want alternate wincons to be things that work when we don't have Paladin on the field, cause once we have Paladin online we can win with storm.
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Typically, this line of play is because of something preventing a Storm turn but not a safe Paladin. Canonist, Thalia, Leyline, storm hate such as Mindbreak Trap. You can be convinced our not, but it's just fact that I've done it enough that I dislike going below 3 Sigils at any given time.
I never meant to imply that EtW is just better than Mentor. Each is better at some things than the other. Mentor is the best of the two at covering Paladin's specific weaknesses while maintaining high speed, which is why Mentor is a 4-of and EtW is a 1-of (also because it's easier on colors). But EtW is still very capable as a 5th Mentor that covers slightly different bases for increased flexibility and consistency.
I'm not sure what's wrong with a maindeck Sacred Foundry... Unless you're worried about the extra shock?? It simply gives me consistent access to the deck's third color (Grapeshot) and allows easy support of EtW sideboard with forcing 4 or more colors, which would probably either take sideboard slots or weaken the manabase maindeck (such as a Godless Shrine when nothing is black maindeck, meaning one less blue source and a shock without adding anything).
I will update the OP sometime today or Friday.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Sorry I'm not following, but here's the disconnect: most decks I'm not seeing 7+ mana, and certainly not on turn 3. Against UW control and Hatebears, do you mean they didn't have an answer for paladin t6, or sigil t7? How is that related to t3?
If you get to cast a Sigil for 7 and equip it to a paladin, and then grapeshot to clear away blockers, do you mean that you needed the grapeshot for a small number AND couldn't go off? That's surprising to me, particularly on t7 with so much open mana. Wouldn't the combo have just been easier than swinging twice? How did hatebears not have any artifact/ench removal by t7, and how did UW not have a counter/verdict/spot removal for either the paladin OR the sigil by t7?
I'm cutting the EtW side for a Void Snare for hate permanents. Same with Mindbreak Trap, there's no reason with silence in the deck to walk into it. Just keep looping until a silence resolves, then win. Revival the silence if it's countered. Other storm decks have reasons to consider going super-wide with EtW, but we dont share those constraints, with the ability to tutor up 2 mana bullets and dig for 1 mana bullets. Between silence, void snare, echoing truth, and the ability to recur them (revival) we shouldn't have a problem with a hate permanent or a single counter. Mindbreak Trap and its ilk (Counterflux) should not be scary cards, because we have silence (or pact, w/e).
Here's my new sideboard plan:
4x Monastery Mentor
4x Silence
2x Void Snare
1x Hurkyl's Recall
You've convinced me on the Hurkyl's Recall, if only so I can run 2 echoing truth main (less need to waste a revival when we need a mini-retract AND a leyline bounce)
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EDIT
As to the sacred foundry, we should always plan to start at a virtual 12, and anticipate needing all 4 Noxious Revival. That's an absurdly low amount for burn, which represents a real % of (most) metas. Assuming ~2 from fetches each game, we start at 10 against an equipped opponent. Because we may need to muddle, maximizing blue sources should be an absolute priority. At the same time, I don't think we want less than 2 plains for path. I've updated my list here - the land looks like:
More generally: 10 fetches, must always fetch plains, 4 must fetch island, no more than 2 non-blue sources, minimize path blowout, minimize life loss. Without the last two requirements Foundry is perfectly fine, but I find the last two absolutely vital. Without EtW I'll never need red unless I'm going off, in which case Mox Opal is right there.
This did not happen on turn 7. There was not this much "open mana". And in the face of most things that force this line of play, the combo is simply not a possible option. How do you propose going off fully through Thalia without Grapeshotting her first?
Edit: For reference, the first time I have a record of doing it, I mentioned it in post #74 of this thread. In fairness I also was still ok with Gemstone Caverns at the time, so there's a certain element of adolescence, but I did do it, and repeated it in other matches.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If it turns out 4 muddle + 2 echoing isn't enough to take care of thalia-effects (relevant - doesn't hit transmute) then I'd bring in 4 Mentors instead, and drop 1 or 2 equipment a turn through thalia and keep building up a swarm of prowess creatures - they're probably not keeping sweepers in.
But again, I think we're talking about different stages of the deck's life. I think that the tools available now change the landscape significantly - we haven't run 2 Noxious Revival in the SB for a long time, and that upends the tradeoffs of grapeshot-as-a-boardwipe. With the ability to transmute echoing truth t3, bounce t4 and go off or bounce eot t4 and untap without thalia t5, she doesn't seem scary.
Same with Rule of Law, etc. Transmute is an ability, and doesn't get hit by the "one spell per turn" tax. Transmute, paladin, untap bounce go off.
4 Rugged Prairie
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Glint Hawk
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Noncreature Spells:
4 Retract
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Grapeshot
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Kite Shield
4 Sigil of Distinction
4 Bone Saw
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
Edit:
Yes, Simian Spirit Guide is a good replacement and it let's you play a turn one Puresteel Paladin off of Rugged Prairie.
This doesn't even feel like the same deck to be honest. Echoing Truth has been and will continue to be a great answer, probably better that Wear/Tear for our deck. What is Glint Hawk doing here? Why more than 1 Grapeshot? Without 4x Muddle the Mixture, what happens when you don't see Paladin all game?
Please don't misunderstand this for distaste - off-the-wall brewing is what lets decks like Cheeri0s happen at all, but this feels like a significant deviation from the core of what makes Cheeri0s consistent.
Edit: just noticed someone mentioned it on the first page with a short response. Is the biggest issue the fact that you will only get the mana if you are on the draw? Wouldn't this be good after game 1 & 2?
Modern:
Tezzeret
???
Legacy:
Imperial Painter aka. Strawberry Shortcake
Tezzeret, aka. Dack in Black
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82550
3 Monastery Mentor
4 Puresteel Paladin
Spells:
4 Kite Shield
3 Noxious Revival
4 Mox Opal
4 Accorder's Shield
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Bone Saw
1 Sigil of Distinction
2 Mystic Gate
1 Grapeshot
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Paradise Mantle
4 Retract
1 Echoing Truth
2 Glimmervoid
1 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
1 Island
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Silence
3 Batwing Brume
3 Gut Shot
3 Angel's Grace
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82550
His sideboard is a little wonky, and the maindeck Mentor is a really interesting call. I've been pretty set on playing it in the sideboard, but I think I'm still going to try Silences in those maindeck slots.
Edit: Sarnath'd by kenshin! And wow, look at his enthusiasm =D
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Straight to the point to answer as many questions about my list as possible: 21 Cheerios is very doable, with 20 post-board for space concerns. We can still win on turn 2 with 20 cereal, so don't worry about it. Having 3 Noxious Revival is perfectly fine. I noticed that I sided one out more frequently than I liked, and cutting it has had no determinable impact thus far. Maindeck Mentor allows us to go wide instead of up if we can't find Paladin, but what I learned was that 8 cards to start with isn't enough. (4 Paladin, 4 Muddle) This moves the number of keepable hands up even harder, up to 11 cards we want to see in our opener, instead of the semi-sketchy 8. And yes, it was relevant. I did attack Affinity and Burn to death. I lost to burn, but that guy was drawing perfectly, all throughout the tourney. Twas unreal.
Sideboard seems wonky, but it hits what I feel to be the hardest matchups. Batwing Brume is purely for Twin decks, as Muddle doesn't stop them from going off, so we have 2 plans post board against them. We kill them, or they kill them. Cavern for our Human friends. Gut shot for Spirit of the Labyrinth and Thalia, which shut us out, and also gives us game against Infect and Affinity (the lands anyway.) Silence for Red White decks to punch through removal, and Angel's Grace for Ad Naseum (they draw their deck and lose, haha), Burn (Eidolon of the Great Revel is very very bad), Scapeshift (since they are tapped out the turn they go off giving us a chance to win the next turn), etc.
I have been pushing this list through match after match to grind all the numbers, and I think I am very close to a super optimal list. I have numerous turn 2 wins throughout the day, even through Leyline, and enough turn 3 kills to go around.
To Serene, Silence is a strong card in the main, I cannot lie, but most of our opponents are likely to be setting up during the first 3 turns of the game, and I feel that gunning for it during those 3 turns is key to taking them by surprise, which I did.
Funny story, in the top 8 my first opponent cast Fracturing Gust on me when I cast a Grapeshot with 24 storm. He went to 50, and I lost a lot of cereal and an Opal, then to 26 when it resolved. Still enough gas to kill him.
Don't let anyone talk you down guys. This deck is real.
I figured Brume was for Twin, but I hadn't really considered them tough. Don't we just race them really well? Are they using more removal than they used to?
I think maybe all 4 Caverns, and possibly the 4th Mentor. I'm not sure how I would reorganize it just yet. I love that Mentor simultaneously replaces Paladin and Empty the Warrens whenever he's needed.
Grace to beat Eidolon is pure genius.
21 equips feels fine for me, I prefer 22-23 but it's still very much in the butter zone. The realization that 24 was not optimal was actually very important in progressing the deck. Any space at all in this deck is huge and allows for wild variations and deep innovative thinking.
Congratulations, Stephen, and THANK YOU! Thank you for playing, innovating, raising the profile, and most of all, thanks for having fun and making the Magic world a little bit happier!
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I also wish that Mentor was a 3 drop, but sadly it isn't so. I've tried other 2 drops such as Riddlesmith (no no) and Erayo (always lose when he flips, believe it or not), but nothing. I couldn't find anything of value, and while Myth Realized is bonkers, its basically another Grapeshot (one thing that hits hard). I felt that going wider would work, and to be fair, I was rewarded for it.
I think 3 is the number to go for right now... we could get away with 2, which is what I do post-board against decks that I simply want to race with Paladin.
4 Caverns is a lot lol, and one of the matchups where we want them is the same matchup I want to be casting Brume, which makes 4 slightly awkward, pushing me into 3. 4 may be the right call in Charlotte, depending on how the meta has evolved up to then.
Thank for serenechaos. I toyed with an idea similar to yours for a bit, and when I stumbled upon this forum I really liked the idea. It seems we have all gone through similar evolutions, but I think this one now is the one to run, at least in the coming weeks. 11 cards that we can win with makes your opening hands so much better, and mulligans don't hurt nearly as bad with so much gas. I'm glad to have been (or currently be) the bannerman for Cheerios, and to show the players that what we have is the fastest deck in Modern.
Round 1: Affinity (Previous Premier IQ Winner Joseph Greer)
To be fair, I forgot who won the die roll. I saw the robots begin to populate the field on turn one, and I simply played a fetch. He attacks, and I crack the fetch, then follow it up with another land. He attacks one more time, and proceeds to die to a Grapeshot on my third turn. I sideboard Silence and Gut Shot to fight back a bit and be aggressive against Galvanic Blast and the like. Much like game 1, on my third turn my library finds its way into my hand and we sign the slip 2-0 me.
My opponents sitting on my right decided to mulligan, and in the time it took them to finish the mulligan, we were shuffling up for game two. "I've got a need.. A need for speed."
Round 2: Affinity
Game one was awesome here. And by awesome I mean that I mulliganed into an awkward hand and die having only played 1-2 lands. I know he's on robots, and as such I don't sideboard much as his list looked quite standard with no funny stuff going on. I keep my six game two, which consists of 2 shields 3 lands and retract. I start with a shock land and he plays Ornithoper and some random artifact and then Thoughtseizes me turn one, and he has no idea what is going on, which is great. He takes a shield (lol) and when I draw for my turn my prayers are answered: Monastery Mentor. I play another land and pass and he drops Ravager. I drop Mentor and 2 shields (yay draw steps giving me cards) and have 2 monks. He plays Etched Champion, and at this point his board is 3 lands Ravager Champion Ornithopter and Springleaf Drum. On my turn I cast Retract, Shield Shield and crash in for 13 damage. He opts to sac enough stuff to bring the Champion to a 5/5 and trade with the Mentor, as he lost metalcraft in the process, and my 5 monks get there. (YES) Game three I keep a strong 7, jamming 2 Paladins and ending the game rather fast. I think this was a turn 2 kill.
Round 3: Burn
This is such a silly matchup for me, haha. I go for the turn 2 win and he tapped out turn one for a Swiftspear. While I do fizzle, I have a Paladin that also happens to be a 3/12. He can't kill the paladin, so he jams Eidolon of the Great Revel, which is basically puttting a gun to my head. On my turn I take the two to cast Accorder's Shield, giving my paladin Vigilance, and I begin to attack and attack and attack until my opponent is sitting at 4 life. He goes to two casting a Lightning Helix, which eats a Muddle the Mixture, and at 2 life, he really can't cast spells to do anything, and dies shortly after. Game two he starts with double Leyline of Sanctity, and I draw nothing of value and die. Sad times. Game three he starts with Leyline again, and I start with a Godless Shrine tapped. He fetches a basic mountain and suspends Rift Bolt. He tapped out on turn one, so OBVIOUSLY I'm gonna go for it. He dies turn 2 as I draw the vast majority of my deck, Echoing Truth the Leyline, and Grapeshot for the kill.
Round 4: Scapeshift
We had quite the number of people from Augusta come up with us, and I got paired down against one of our number. With a 2-1 record against my 3-0, he scooped to me here to put me at 4-0, as it put me straight through to top 8 and allowed us to get some much needed food. I am grateful that teamwork came through here, as battling a teammate is something I never like doing.
Rounds 5-6: ID to top 8
At this point, I've gotten a lot of funny looks and the turn 2 kill through Leyline has gotten a good deal of attention, so I needlessly stress myself out for a bit before top 8 starts.
Quarterfinals: Little Abzan
I start us off as I am the higher seed and I keep my hand. I play land and he follows with Noble Heirarch. I play another land and pass, and he jams Loxodon Smiter (that's big). I end up playing a Paladin and fizzle, so he jams another beef stick. He dies to Grapeshot the following turn.
Game 2 he starts with Leyline, and I keep a hand without Paladin, but everything else needed to go off. Long story short, he plays creatures and attacks me, and I die. Game three was epic though. Of all the top 8 matches, no one really seemed to care what was happening at the other tables, but basically stood behind me the entire time. We start off just like we did game one, save the fact that he has a Leyline, haha. I end up with 3 Paladins in play and proceed to draw all but 2 cards, and with my lands and Paradise Mantle and bounce the Leyline and Grapeshot, to which HE RESPONDS WITH FRACTURING GUST. I lose an Opal and a bunch of cereal, and he goes to a whopping 50 health, before the Grapeshot brings him down to 26. I tank for a minute, and everyone is like, 'wow' because, well, I've seemingly lost the game. I go through the three separate piles of my hand, considering I have so many cards (props to the guy behind me who said 'needs moar Reliquary Tower'), I drop the last 4 equipment, drawing my last 2 cards, then use my 3 remaining Retracts and Noxious Revivals to double the storm count, return the Grapeshot to my deck, draw it, and kill him anyway. This brought cheers from the crowd, hugs and high-fives from friends and people I don't know alike. Best game of magic all day, hands down. (having a stupidly high storm count really wasn't necessary, but I loved it, he loved it, and the crowd loved it, so yeah)
Semis: Perfect Burn
I call this deck perfect burn, as every game of magic this kid played he drew spot of perfect the entire time. Turns two and three Eidolon against me and my friends almost every game (always had one on turn two), perfect draws... it was crazy. I did not have hands that could go off fast enough to get past the Eidolon, and my adventure ends there.
Yes, I realize that I got a little bit lucky that my friend Tristan decided to scoop to me in round 4, but look where it got us. Probably the luckier part was the fact that I got to sit next to everyone playing Splinter Twin, rather than across from them.
I have a few concerns about the matches presented in this report. This isn't so much directed at Lou as it is directed at all of us as players, and in general at matchup reports.
First, there is a tendency in reporting matches to attribute any wins to playskill and deck power, and attribute losses to bad luck. Lou's report doesn't have this problem nearly as much as other reports I have seen, but it's still present. Instead of writing off losses as our own bad luck and/or the good luck of an opponent, we need to think how we can read those moments for improvement areas. Here's an example of this at play:
"Game one was awesome here. And by awesome I mean that I mulliganed into an awkward hand and die having only played 1-2 lands."
When I read this, I don't see bad luck. I see inconsistent mulligans and challenges in the opening hand. That observation is totally backed up both by my own testing, other matchup reports, and the lists themselves, which can be very land-light. While this might be a necessary consequence of the deck, it's also something we need to think about with respect to larger events. If we lose some % of our games to mulligans, how is that going to play out at a GP where we need to go X-2 on day 1? Especially if we don't have byes going into the event? This could suggest deckbuilding changes to improve our mulligans.
"Game 2 he starts with Leyline, and I keep a hand without Paladin, but everything else needed to go off. Long story short, he plays creatures and attacks me, and I die."
Here's the mulligan issue again. The hand looks good but because it's missing that one critical piece, it can't go the distance. This is a big issue in our deck because we don't have the same kind of cantrips that we see in other combo decks like Storm or Ad Nauseam, and we don't have the same kind of alternate win routes and game paces as we see in Twin. This could also influence deckbuilding decisions when trying to smooth out lists.
"I did not have hands that could go off fast enough to get past the Eidolon, and my adventure ends there."
I don't read this and see a "kid" who gets "perfect" draws. I read this and see we have a serious problem in the 44%ish of games where Burn is going to start with an Eidolon in their opening 7. That worries me because Burn is right around 10% of the metagame, which means we have a very real chance of autolosing 1-2 of our Burn games to this card. Again, the opportunity here is for deckbuilding (more removal? more interaction?) and not for blaming bad luck.
All of this is to say that we need to read between the lines in losses. To me, Lou's report indicates that we are playing a fragile, high variance deck, not that anyone is more/less lucky than their opponents. To some extent, we already knew we are playing a fragile, high variance deck, but this just confirms it and shows how that can be both good and bad at a tournament.
My second big concern with the matchup report is the number of games that didn't get played. We are looking at two IDs to get into the T8, and then an intentional scoop from a friend to seal it. That's not the kind of steamrolling performance I would hope for, especially if I was sleeving this up for a GP.
The big point in this is that we need more testing and more critical assessment of the lists and the sideboard. PARTICULARLY the sideboard, because our main 60 has a lot less flexibility than most other decks, and we need to draw a lot of strength from our board. We have spent a lot of time crafting that main 60, but probably not nearly enough time on the sideboard. This can be very dangerous, given that you are playing at least as many sideboard games as game 1s, and in reality it's probably many more. Lou made some interesting suggestions and ideas for the board, but that's where a lot more testing needs to take place.
PucaTrade Invite. Sign up and enjoy the first 500 points ($5) free!
We want alternate wincons to be things that work when we don't have Paladin on the field, cause once we have Paladin online we can win with storm.
Modern:
Tezzeret
???
Legacy:
Imperial Painter aka. Strawberry Shortcake
Tezzeret, aka. Dack in Black