The spot removal will likely become a Dismember and Gut Shots. I think I've only sided Ratchet Bomb in once, but I like having it against tokens as a silver bullet I can tutor up. Agree re: Echoing Truth. Will make the change as the cantrip on Into the Roil won't come up very often. The reason for the Geth's Verdict is because I want a way to start the combo that costs 2 mana and is instant speed. I've had several games where everything is assembled but I don't have a way to start things off, but do have a Muddle the Mixture.....and nothing to fetch.
I've only ever run one Ghost Quarter. Due to my less than stellar mana base, I've never felt comfortable running more and I do get mana screwed from time to time.
I haven't faced Merfolk or Affinity with this version of the deck, so pure aggro I'm not sure on. There are several changes I want to make. On a bit of a losing streak right now, but not getting sad as the matches are competitive and in 2 of 3, maybe all 3, I've made play errors or taken a bad line that cost me the match. Lost a 3 game set to Cruel Control, and lost to burn twice. Actually, it's not even burn I'm losing to. It's Eidolon of the Great Revel specifically.
Suddenly I can't win with the deck. The matches are competitive, and I've been making some errors which cost me a couple of them. But I was definitely drawing well in the first 10 matches I played with the deck. I'm getting underwhelmed with Thoughtscour. It could be a sweeper. Maybe spot removal. Maybe Tezzeret. As it stands I just don't think it does enough.
The only deck to this point that I felt completely overwhelmed by was Master of Waves Merfolk. Even Jund has to draw well and be careful lest we combo them. They certainly have good tools against us, but they need to respect the combo. I perceived my game against merfolk to be terribly lopsided. Still haven't tested against Affinity.
Suddenly I can't win with the deck. The matches are competitive, and I've been making some errors which cost me a couple of them. But I was definitely drawing well in the first 10 matches I played with the deck. I'm getting underwhelmed with Thoughtscour. It could be a sweeper. Maybe spot removal. Maybe Tezzeret. As it stands I just don't think it does enough.
The only deck to this point that I felt completely overwhelmed by was Master of Waves Merfolk. Even Jund has to draw well and be careful lest we combo them. They certainly have good tools against us, but they need to respect the combo. I perceived my game against merfolk to be terribly lopsided. Still haven't tested against Affinity.
Yeah, variance is a thing in Magic. You can feel like God sometimes, but other times you can't draw for anything. The challenge is building the deck tight enough to where you can recover from bad draws, avoid holes, and adjust to certain match ups. Fixing the deck might make it softer against certain match ups. We have to make the deck as tight and efficient as possible to allow some flexibility.
For our strategy, I think it's ideal to be proactive, which is why I cut Remand. It's effective when it works, but it forces us to sit back when we draw it. I would rather run a card that I can use to forward the plan. As far as cantrips go, we should run a full set of Serum Visions, which help hit land drops. The card I've seen people running lately and has worked well for me is Mishra's Bauble. Gitaxian probe would be another candidate, but we need to be efficient with our mana and we can't afford to pay life.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a great card for our cause because a) he's a plainswalker that can provide immediate value, b) being a plainswalker he's tough to answer outside of counters and discard, c) he can protect himself if need be, and d) most importantly he finds a combo piece among other things.
Another idea is running Talisman of Dominance. I can't run the deck without four. The ramp really increases the odds of a turn four kill. Turn one you play your Vial or discard. Turn two play a Talisman followed by a discard or serum visions. Turn three, Mindcrank or Tezzeret, then turn four vial a Duskmantle, activate then play ghost quarter or whatever.
My current build has dealt with Jund quite well. The match up is the benchmark for any deck that wants to be competitive in my opinion. You have to be resilient to mulligans and bad draws, otherwise Jund will punish you. The cards I've mentioned make the deck more consistent, which gives you game against Jund.
Merfolk nut draws are tough to beat. I like having a sweeper for this match up. I'm still trying to figure out how to side correctly against it. Do I take out discard, or should I leave it in to deal with the lords? Leaving some discard in might work, but Aether Vial makes it harder. So far I've been siding out discard, but I'm still trying different configurations. In a recent match against Merfolk, game two I cast two Damnation with a chance to stabilize and still lost to Master of Waves which he vialed in end of turn on the second one. It was the third one he played. I could have won if it wasn't for Master, but I felt he had good draws both games. Some match ups you might have to concede as unfavorable.
My build is not for everyone, but the ideas have worked against most of the top decks. After all, my goal is to be competitive, and I've considered every angle when putting this together. I used to run a top tier GR Tron build before this, and I feel more confident when playing this deck.
@EggShen: Interesting list. I honestly think you have too many 3-ofs in the deck. A 3-of for me usually means: "I want to see this card every game, but not in multiples." This isn't really something I would say about Serum Visions, Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. Sure, sometimes cuts have to be made, but I think cutting one of those cards to 2 or even 1 copies would probably be better than running lots of 3-ofs (or maybe making cuts in other places).
I initially only wanted Thought Scour for a very "all-in" version of the deck (one similar to your last list) because it's a 1 mana cantrip that can only turn on the combo. If it couldn't do that, I never would have wanted it in the deck to begin with, but the added upside seemed pretty good on paper.
The cheapest sweeper in our colors is Drown in Sorrow and costs 3 mana instead of one. So it's on a very different part of our mana curve and - obviously - serves a very different function than Thought Scour. Swapping those cards in the main deck turns the entire deck into a much more controlling list, which might be the right course, but it's definitely not really an "all-in" version anymore at that point.
@pKinetic: I completely agree that a more controlling version with Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas might be viable and that Remand has an awkward, "nonbo" feel to it in a deck with lots of discard and a pro-active game plan. I think a more controlling version might definitely want to run Talisman of Dominance, some removal/sweepers and probably Thirst for Knowledge ?
I'm not so sure about that last one, but Thirst for Knowledge has done a lot of good things for me when I was playing Blue Tron and it could let us pitch awkward additional Æther Vials or the like while digging 3 cards deep and "drawing 2" if we pitch any artifact.
I believe it's still all in combo with Tezzeret and sweepers in the side. You could run Thisrt for Knowledge instead of Tezzeret, as all I really use him for is to dig. If anything remand makes it more controlling. Remand is not good here in my opinion.
I'm debating on Drown in Sorrow, but the big thing is mana constraints and decks that can go over it like Merfolk and Zoo. I can't imagine beating those decks without a sweeper though. Merfolk is tough. I've added three Echoing Truths and three Vapor Snags in there to go along with the sweepers. It might be overkill, but the deck is tuned to beat pretty much anything else you're likely to face. So you can tempo them until you hit a sweeper. You just need to stick a Mindcrank and Aether Vial.
The 3 Serum Visions will become a playset at some point. Just haven't added any tickets to my account lately.
As for the discard, I've found instances where IoK is a blank when you need it to trigger your combo, and it's kind of embarrassing when that happens. I also feel like I have a tendency to keep disruption heavy hands, especially in games 2 & 3 vs. other combo decks, and then peter out if my draws don't come together the way I want. Hence, I've gone from 8 targeted discard to seven (and when you're running that many redundant effects, I'm not sure playset vs. 3-of makes much of a difference). And that Raven's Crime has won a couple games out of the graveyard, but I think the power of Thoughtseize is just better so that will change eventually.
Lets say I'm trying to keep it as an 'all-in' speedster of a combo, but I don't want Thought Scour. What other cards might help it be faster in those last couple slots? Or maybe just more resilient? I'm feeling pretty good about the 6 transmuters, so I'd rather not increase my Dimir Infiltrator count. Without the Tezzeret's, I'm not sure I'll need the Talismans, although ramp doesn't sound terrible. Gitaxian Probe?
Also, you'll have to explain your aversion to targeted discard combined with remand. I totally don't get it. Bounce and discard seem like a nice mix, to me. Is it that on one hand, we're stripping threats...but on the other, we're putting them back? The remand is just an early game cantrip that allows me to get another land out while slowing down our opponent. I hate it when it's bad, but I think it allows for it's fair share of early game wins.
Also, at pKinetic, you seem very worried about life loss. Now, it's entirely possible that I've lost a couple games due to self inflicted damage and never even realized it, but I typically don't even notice it.
Remand is mainly good for tempo disruption in control strategies. It gets boarded out against decks that don't rely on tempo. It's nice to combine it with discard, but how is it any better than just discarding the threat? It cantrips, but being reactive slows us down. Why pay three mana to bounce a spell, draw a card, and discard the threat next turn, when you can pay two mana to to draw a card and discard the same threat in one turn. We want to stay constistant with being proactive and getting to our combo. We don't want to grind out games. It's better to play efficient cantrips that don't react to what our opponent is doing.
Unnessacary life loss is always good to avoid if you can. If you can play a mana base without pain, does it increase your odds of surviving and winning the game? Decks that play fetch and shock lands are doing powerful things, gaining life, or both. Our deck is relying on two fragile cards to win the game. We're already playing four Thoughtseize.
Try Mishra's Bauble. It's free and it cuts your deck to 56 cards. I would try Gitaxian Probe too, but it's important to manage your life total.
This was against a pretty straight foward mid range GW hatebears deck. I combo'd game one then lost the second game. The interesting thing about this match is game three where I was staring down not one, but two hate cards to which I only had two answers and no time. I had boarded in some control after game one with Damnation and Gut Shot and also two Echoing Truth, anticipating a Rest in Peaceor some other hate. My opening hand was awkard with Dimir Infiltrator and a couple of Damnations but I felt secure about dealing with his board. Turn two I play Mindcrank. His turn he proceeds to drop RIP, unsurprisingly. Turn three, I transmute for Echoing Truth. His turn he plays Pithing Needle naming Duskmantle, which initially had me thinking scoop but I had the sweepers which could buy me some time to find my other truth. Even then I figured I wouldn't have the time to combo off, having to set up then bounce both hate cards. I decided to play it out.
I miss a land drop, but was lucky to pick off a Thalia with the Inquisition of Kozilek I drew. I kept three in this game. He swings with Leonin Arbitor, the following turn casts Wilt-leaf Liege and then Flickerwisp targeting my Spellskite leaving me with no blockers. I had missed two consecutive land drops putting me down to eight, then I hit a land and wiped the board. He cast Loxodon Smiter into my other Damnation, then Thalia, Guardian of Thraben came down which was met with a Gut Shot I peeled. I was successfully controlling the board, and after taking out Thalia, I had four mana left to cast Tezzeret. He found me an Aether Vial, then next turn I cast the Vial, another Mindcrank then Duskmantle. At this point he was pretty much top decking. He eventually hit Qasali Pridemage and dispatched my Duskmantle with Journey to Nowhere. I animated my Aether Vial with Tezzeret forcing him to sac Pridemage, then played my second Duskmantle. He plays a Dryad Militant, but I answered it with Gut Shot. I was finally able to attack him with an animated 5/5 Mindcrank and Duskmantle, milling him for 21 cards, and giving me lethal next turn.
This is an example of Tezzeret providing us with a plan B and giving us long game. I'm still unlocking his power, because most of the time I don't even see this plan. Here I was forced to shift game plans and it happened to work. I was fortunate to have dodged Path of Exile, but I'm not sure what my opponent boarded out or if he was running them at all. These practice matches are somewhat misleading because of the range of skill level and decks you're likely to face, but they help you prepare for anything. A lot of the matches are against good decks though. I still need quite a bit more practice before I start to play competitively.
If all of these artifacts being used, would Thirst for Knowledge be a helpful card to draw into combo pieces or is Serum Visions more helpful because it is cheaper?
@TequilaFlavor -
Sleight of Hand is an interesting option. I may give that a whirl to see how it works.
@pKinetic -
Certainly in the mana base, avoiding life loss is better than giving life away willy-nilly. But when it comes to Mishra's Bauble vs. Gitaxian Probe, I'm more than willing to spend two life to see my opponent's hand. I value that pretty highly given the type of deck we're playing. And of course I won't always have to spend two life to do it.
@both of ya'll re: Remand -
I'm not totally stuck on remand, it just seems like it pulls it weight far more often than it's bad. I think it might be a mistake to compare how Remand is used in a certain deck or a certain archetype, and then assume that's the only way to use it. It may get boarded out against non-tempo decks in a control shell, but we're a different animal and it fills a different role for us.
For me, Remand is basically the same as the Talisman, but it doesn't cost me life and it cantrips so I'm not down a card. And it has other applications like allowing me to force a Mindcrank onto the battlefield past countermagic. It doesn't ramp, but it does allow me to get to my third land drop with no change in the board state. If I go turn 2 Talisman and then discard something, they still have mana up to drop a Tarmogoyf or a Dark Confidant or whatever. If I remand their turn 2 play, regardless of what it is, I can still discard whatever the worst threat is on my turn 3, and then play one of my many two drops. There's no way to drop two two-drops on turn three (or a Tezz), but because I stalled the opponent's board development, it's pretty close to a wash in my mind. That said, it is lackluster in certain matchups and later in the game it loses some of it's oomph. I'm not opposed to trying something else, but it's gonna have to be good to take Remand's spot. It's just a powerful and versatile card (which is why it sees so much play).
I do like that Tezz digs so deep for Mindcrank. I'll mull things over a bit (and check his price online, LOL).
If all of these artifacts being used, would Thirst for Knowledge be a helpful card to draw into combo pieces or is Serum Visions more helpful because it is cheaper?
I like Serum Vision because it helps hit land drops. Thirst for Knowledge might be good too, but I'm not sure if three mana is too steep.
Modo was bugged for a while, so I hadn't been playing. I've settled on four Spellskite, added more cycling with Gitaxian Probes and cut Thoughtseize all together. Tezzeret continues to fill in the holes and sometimes do heavy lifting. He's won me plenty of games.
The side board is tuned more for Pod as it's been quite hard to beat. The Relics should've always been in there. This should now be more resilient to hate, as there is plenty of it running around, particularly in the form of Ancient Grudge. What a nasty card.
I've been doing satisfyingly well against Burn, even more so now that we have the full set of Spellskites.
We should be ready for prime time folks. Reports coming soon.
No muddle the mixture at all, eh? I suppose with 7 (potentially) 0 mana cantrips that might be okay. It's not usually a card I'm sad to see, though.
Ancient Grudge is rough, but Academy Ruins earns it's keep against it.
Agree with that 3rd main deck spellskite. Card is so solid for us.
Modo still seems buggy to me, so I haven't been on much. Having trouble getting a game finished without it just suddenly ending the match, claiming either me or my opponent wins...
Yesterday was brutal. I played in a couple of dailies and grinded some eight and two mans. I dropped both dailies at 1-1, taking losses to Burn and Melira Pod (I believe it was Melira Pod, but I played so many games). I didn't 2-1 any eight mans, but I attribute most of my losses to poor opening hands. The rest of the loses could have been the result of questionable plays or just plain tilting. I've always known variance to be a part of magic, but at times it prompts you to think negatively. The drawback of playing a deck such as this is that your game plan being linear leaves you with not a lot of margin for error, although Tezzeret tries to alleviate that. The modern meta game is so diverse that beating it depends on favorable draws as much as anything else, in my opinion. I've learned that in order to maximize your chances of winning you must take advantage of every opportunity and make the correct play. You can't get caught up in drawing badly, getting disrupted, or your opponent top decking, which applies to Magic in general. The most important thing I've learned playing this deck is playing the games out. So it helps to keep this in mind because playing this deck in a competitive environment requires really tight play.
A perfect example of this is when I played UWR control with Kiki-Resto combo. In the third game I had a kill on turn six I believe. My opponent had gotten a few hits with Restoration Angel to get me down to nine but I had Mindcrank and Aether Vial with two counters on my board with Duskmantle in hand. I had the mana I needed to activate Duskmantle's first effect. He had two cards in hand, a Snapcaster and an unknown card. He attacked with two angels leaving him with no blockers. He had four mana up but nothing in his graveyard to kill Duskmantle with Snappy, so I went for it end of turn. The unknown card turned out to be Path of Exile. I ended up losing the game, but if played correctly I would have won. How should I have played it?
Today I had much better results, going 3-0 in an eight man and cashing another so far. My play has been a little tighter, and of course it feels like I'm drawing better
Do we have enough info to solve this? Seems like you were in trouble to me. If you EoT vial in your Guildmage and attack on your turn (assuming he doesn't try to Path at EoT as well, which would be an unlikely blunder by game 3), he can flash in snappy, block, force you to activate the combo ability, and then path your Guildmage in response. Assuming he had enough white/blue mana to do so, of course. If you had enough to activate the ability twice on your turn, then I guess you could have activated again in response to the path, but otherwise, I don't see how you get out of the situation. Waiting can't be right as he was winning on board.
Here's a decklist by Barry Egan that Gerry Thompson posted on Starcity.
Lots of people will be trying this out now, but since it's pretty hard to play well, I think it will definitely remain below the radar. There are some interesting bits, like the land count, the Pacts, and the Tolaria West. I've never been comfortable at our land count, but as I continued to add cantrips, I thought it might improve. However, I hate having to use my cantrips to dig for mana instead of gas, so more lands seems good to me. Especially as we use our Ghost Quarters more like spells. The fetchlands are interesting, and will get better with Polluted Delta coming soon. Allows you enough mana to make sure you get to 3 by turn 3 every game, while whittling the land count down a little so that you're not drawing as many in the later turns. I know, I know, land thinning isn't statically relavent. To that, I say...whatever!
Some things seem a little off to me, though. I surely don't understand the singleton Leyline of Sanctity in the board, and the Illness in the Ranks seems pretty narrow. Especially considering how quickly Honor of the Pure or Intangible Virtue puts tokens out of range. Minor gripes.
The land count is what struck me too. I have yet to try Academy of Ruins but it looks like it works for him as well.
In my example he had the mana to go Path, Snapcaster, Path, but he couldn't Path Duskmantle with my manu up. After I vialed Duskmantle EoT, next turn I activated his effect first then attacked. I realized now it's correct to attack first then wait until the damage step to activate. A lot of mistakes I've made in the past involve not using the stack optimally. I've missed a lot of plays where I could have gone off because I didn't respond to Mindcrank going on the stack.
Hmmmmm. I think I may have messed this up as well in the past. Ha! I can think of two games for sure that I lost by not waiting on the mindcrank activation to trigger the ability. At that point, it doesn't matter if he paths you in response, you've got milling on the stack already and his ability will resolve even when he's exiled. *facepalm* Guess I can't click "Always yield to Mindcrank's ability" in the future.
Still, though, in the example above, you were doomed regardless. He flashes in Snapcaster and blocks. Then, before damage, you're forced to activate the ability in the hopes that his Snapcaster going to the yard will trigger the combo (or you just lose your combo piece, which he's fine with as well). At which point he Paths in response and you're sunk.
Re: Illness in the Ranks. Seems like ratchet bomb is better vs. tokens, to me. It can be tutored up. It can be retrieved with Academy Ruins. And it can do work against things other than tokens as well.
Is Dimir Charm the better two mana combo activator (compared to my Geth's Verdict)? I guess the flexibility it provides is very nice, but man there are times when I just need to kill that damn tarmogoyf, yo!
*Edit* I'd also be curious to hear his thoughts on Pact of Negation. I dig that you can fetch it with Tolaria West in order to force something onto the field past countermagic, but then it kills your whole next turn. Or you can use it to make sure you can go off safely, I suppose, when you don't care about next turn's mana because the game will be over. Worth some testing, in any event.
Is Dimir Charm the better two mana combo activator (compared to my Geth's Verdict)? I guess the flexibility it provides is very nice, but man there are times when I just need to kill that damn tarmogoyf, yo!
*Edit* I'd also be curious to hear his thoughts on Pact of Negation. I dig that you can fetch it with Tolaria West in order to force something onto the field past countermagic, but then it kills your whole next turn. Or you can use it to make sure you can go off safely, I suppose, when you don't care about next turn's mana because the game will be over. Worth some testing, in any event.
And I thought you were running Gut Shot?
Yep. I missed Snapcaster blocking forcing me to activate.
Dimir charm is good, and more versatile than Geth's.
My latest list hasn't been running Gut Shot, but I've added a singleton along with Slaughter Pact.
I'm having a hard time not seeing Echoing Truth in the sideboard. It's won me more than a few games once I know the hate comes. It even saves your pieces.
One Spellskite in the 75 is tough. Budget not being a concern, it has to be a four of.
The 25 land count allows you to mulligan more aggressively. I guess with no answers to hate, the best you can do is hope to dodge it. I guess I like to be slightly more interactive. This combo does catch a lot of people off guard.
I'm Barry Egan, the guy who got his 4-0 decklist on Star City. Honestly that list was one of the first I tried out after discovering Aether Vial, and I think I got pretty lucky because I've found a lot of the card choices to be sub-optimal. I didn't find Tolaria West to be worth it. Pact of negation is usually only good if you can combo on your next upkeep before losing to the Pact. I've tried versions with more Gut Shots but drawing multiples can be really bad. I've tried Snapcaster and think you would want to use more cantrips like Thought Scour in that version. Right now I think I like more discard and 6-8 transmuters. this is the list I'm currently playing, though I'm not convinced it's right yet.
4 Vial
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gut Shot
4 Mindcrank
4 Spellskite
1 Echoing Truth
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Watery Grave
2 River of Tears
4 Underground River
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
So between you, me, and pKinetic, I think we can continue to jam games and post results until we find something resembling 'optimal.' I'm a tad limited by card availability right now, so my results have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Your current list is very very close to what we've been working with, as I'm sure you've noted if you scrolled back a few pages. I'm curious how the Cavern has been working for you lately. Is it good even without Tolaria West? Does it ever burn you in terms of mana/color screw? Between your higher count of targeted discard and the four vials, I have to think it might not be entirely necessary, but I admit I've never tried it.
I also notice you've a new, lower land count. Does it feel more streamlined at 22? The land count in your original list was by far the most interesting bit to me. During testing, I kept feeling like I needed more land, but with the deck having such a low curve it seemed odd to jam more in. And then you post a 4-0 with a whopping 25! I've run a few games at 24 lands and so far I've liked it better than the 21 I was running before. But I'm also running 4 Serum Visions and 4 Sleight of Hand right now, so it's hard for me to tell what's really correct vs. incorrect and simply being masked by card selection/filtering.
Finally, how have you liked the maindeck Echoing Truth? I've never actually considered it for the main, but if it's performing well for you I'm game to try it as it really does work against some powerful hate cards. Not to mention ruining tokens day. I kept a two Echoing Truth hand against Black/White tokens and drew a third. It was nice to combo him out when all he had was a few anthems on the field, and no creatures at all.
I've been playing it so much I don't remember the specifics of the 4-0, though I'm pretty sure I beat Affinity, Melira Pod, and UR Twin. I have not been winning nearly as much lately and am about ready to give up on the deck, or at least Cube Draft until Khans comes out and revisit it later. Here is the list I'd be playing right now:
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Aether Vial
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Inquisition
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gut shot
4 Mindcrank
3 Spellskite
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
2 River of Tears
1 Swamp
2 Tolaria West
4 Underground River
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Watery Grave
SB
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deathmark
1 Extirpate
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
The 4 Leylines may seem bad but there's a lot of burn and discard online and have found it to be almost unbeatable. I side in the Thirst for Knowledge to discard extra/drawn Leylines. I haven't gotten many games in with this list, but I've learned enough that I think it's almost perfect. One thing I'm not sure of is whether you want an alternate win con such as Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and/or Creeping Tar Pit.
Yeah, there is too much hate to win consistently with a pure combo version. I don't think you need Leylines as they take up too many slots. Cantrips are key to making your deck run consistently, and I don't value transmutors as much, expecially since I run Tezzeret.
This is my current list. I used to run a fourth Tezzeret, but he gets sided out in some match ups. He is excellent against burn, along with spellkite. My toughest match up is Melira Pod, by far. I seem to have terrible luck against it as they seem to have an answer every time. Even when they beat down I should be able to go off before they kill me, but for a while it seems I haven't been able to draw well enough. I don't think I can tune the deck any more to stop it.
There are other match ups that are going to give you problems like Tron and BG/x among others. I think Tezzeret gives you a better percentage against the meta. If a deck is siding in a bunch of hate I prepare for a grind. That's where Tezzeret comes in handy. I pretty much board in Echoing Truths preemptively game two for this reason too.
I run eleven cantrips to mitigate the effect of discard against me. BG/x junk variants, the best discard deck, is going to be a tough match up no matter what. It's draw and die roll dependent, but I'd say it's close to 50/50.
It takes a fair amount of practice and tuning to compete with this strategy. I think it rivals twin. In fact I think I've beaten twin overall, especially since main decking a set of spellskites and adding the torpor orbs and Echoing truths (great against Blood Moon). The deck can win if you're in tune with the meta and adjust your deck accordingly.
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I've only ever run one Ghost Quarter. Due to my less than stellar mana base, I've never felt comfortable running more and I do get mana screwed from time to time.
I haven't faced Merfolk or Affinity with this version of the deck, so pure aggro I'm not sure on. There are several changes I want to make. On a bit of a losing streak right now, but not getting sad as the matches are competitive and in 2 of 3, maybe all 3, I've made play errors or taken a bad line that cost me the match. Lost a 3 game set to Cruel Control, and lost to burn twice. Actually, it's not even burn I'm losing to. It's Eidolon of the Great Revel specifically.
The only deck to this point that I felt completely overwhelmed by was Master of Waves Merfolk. Even Jund has to draw well and be careful lest we combo them. They certainly have good tools against us, but they need to respect the combo. I perceived my game against merfolk to be terribly lopsided. Still haven't tested against Affinity.
Yeah, variance is a thing in Magic. You can feel like God sometimes, but other times you can't draw for anything. The challenge is building the deck tight enough to where you can recover from bad draws, avoid holes, and adjust to certain match ups. Fixing the deck might make it softer against certain match ups. We have to make the deck as tight and efficient as possible to allow some flexibility.
For our strategy, I think it's ideal to be proactive, which is why I cut Remand. It's effective when it works, but it forces us to sit back when we draw it. I would rather run a card that I can use to forward the plan. As far as cantrips go, we should run a full set of Serum Visions, which help hit land drops. The card I've seen people running lately and has worked well for me is Mishra's Bauble. Gitaxian probe would be another candidate, but we need to be efficient with our mana and we can't afford to pay life.
Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas is a great card for our cause because a) he's a plainswalker that can provide immediate value, b) being a plainswalker he's tough to answer outside of counters and discard, c) he can protect himself if need be, and d) most importantly he finds a combo piece among other things.
Another idea is running Talisman of Dominance. I can't run the deck without four. The ramp really increases the odds of a turn four kill. Turn one you play your Vial or discard. Turn two play a Talisman followed by a discard or serum visions. Turn three, Mindcrank or Tezzeret, then turn four vial a Duskmantle, activate then play ghost quarter or whatever.
My current build has dealt with Jund quite well. The match up is the benchmark for any deck that wants to be competitive in my opinion. You have to be resilient to mulligans and bad draws, otherwise Jund will punish you. The cards I've mentioned make the deck more consistent, which gives you game against Jund.
Merfolk nut draws are tough to beat. I like having a sweeper for this match up. I'm still trying to figure out how to side correctly against it. Do I take out discard, or should I leave it in to deal with the lords? Leaving some discard in might work, but Aether Vial makes it harder. So far I've been siding out discard, but I'm still trying different configurations. In a recent match against Merfolk, game two I cast two Damnation with a chance to stabilize and still lost to Master of Waves which he vialed in end of turn on the second one. It was the third one he played. I could have won if it wasn't for Master, but I felt he had good draws both games. Some match ups you might have to concede as unfavorable.
My build is not for everyone, but the ideas have worked against most of the top decks. After all, my goal is to be competitive, and I've considered every angle when putting this together. I used to run a top tier GR Tron build before this, and I feel more confident when playing this deck.
I believe it's still all in combo with Tezzeret and sweepers in the side. You could run Thisrt for Knowledge instead of Tezzeret, as all I really use him for is to dig. If anything remand makes it more controlling. Remand is not good here in my opinion.
I'm debating on Drown in Sorrow, but the big thing is mana constraints and decks that can go over it like Merfolk and Zoo. I can't imagine beating those decks without a sweeper though. Merfolk is tough. I've added three Echoing Truths and three Vapor Snags in there to go along with the sweepers. It might be overkill, but the deck is tuned to beat pretty much anything else you're likely to face. So you can tempo them until you hit a sweeper. You just need to stick a Mindcrank and Aether Vial.
As for the discard, I've found instances where IoK is a blank when you need it to trigger your combo, and it's kind of embarrassing when that happens. I also feel like I have a tendency to keep disruption heavy hands, especially in games 2 & 3 vs. other combo decks, and then peter out if my draws don't come together the way I want. Hence, I've gone from 8 targeted discard to seven (and when you're running that many redundant effects, I'm not sure playset vs. 3-of makes much of a difference). And that Raven's Crime has won a couple games out of the graveyard, but I think the power of Thoughtseize is just better so that will change eventually.
Lets say I'm trying to keep it as an 'all-in' speedster of a combo, but I don't want Thought Scour. What other cards might help it be faster in those last couple slots? Or maybe just more resilient? I'm feeling pretty good about the 6 transmuters, so I'd rather not increase my Dimir Infiltrator count. Without the Tezzeret's, I'm not sure I'll need the Talismans, although ramp doesn't sound terrible. Gitaxian Probe?
Also, you'll have to explain your aversion to targeted discard combined with remand. I totally don't get it. Bounce and discard seem like a nice mix, to me. Is it that on one hand, we're stripping threats...but on the other, we're putting them back? The remand is just an early game cantrip that allows me to get another land out while slowing down our opponent. I hate it when it's bad, but I think it allows for it's fair share of early game wins.
Also, at pKinetic, you seem very worried about life loss. Now, it's entirely possible that I've lost a couple games due to self inflicted damage and never even realized it, but I typically don't even notice it.
Unnessacary life loss is always good to avoid if you can. If you can play a mana base without pain, does it increase your odds of surviving and winning the game? Decks that play fetch and shock lands are doing powerful things, gaining life, or both. Our deck is relying on two fragile cards to win the game. We're already playing four Thoughtseize.
Try Mishra's Bauble. It's free and it cuts your deck to 56 cards. I would try Gitaxian Probe too, but it's important to manage your life total.
This was against a pretty straight foward mid range GW hatebears deck. I combo'd game one then lost the second game. The interesting thing about this match is game three where I was staring down not one, but two hate cards to which I only had two answers and no time. I had boarded in some control after game one with Damnation and Gut Shot and also two Echoing Truth, anticipating a Rest in Peaceor some other hate. My opening hand was awkard with Dimir Infiltrator and a couple of Damnations but I felt secure about dealing with his board. Turn two I play Mindcrank. His turn he proceeds to drop RIP, unsurprisingly. Turn three, I transmute for Echoing Truth. His turn he plays Pithing Needle naming Duskmantle, which initially had me thinking scoop but I had the sweepers which could buy me some time to find my other truth. Even then I figured I wouldn't have the time to combo off, having to set up then bounce both hate cards. I decided to play it out.
I miss a land drop, but was lucky to pick off a Thalia with the Inquisition of Kozilek I drew. I kept three in this game. He swings with Leonin Arbitor, the following turn casts Wilt-leaf Liege and then Flickerwisp targeting my Spellskite leaving me with no blockers. I had missed two consecutive land drops putting me down to eight, then I hit a land and wiped the board. He cast Loxodon Smiter into my other Damnation, then Thalia, Guardian of Thraben came down which was met with a Gut Shot I peeled. I was successfully controlling the board, and after taking out Thalia, I had four mana left to cast Tezzeret. He found me an Aether Vial, then next turn I cast the Vial, another Mindcrank then Duskmantle. At this point he was pretty much top decking. He eventually hit Qasali Pridemage and dispatched my Duskmantle with Journey to Nowhere. I animated my Aether Vial with Tezzeret forcing him to sac Pridemage, then played my second Duskmantle. He plays a Dryad Militant, but I answered it with Gut Shot. I was finally able to attack him with an animated 5/5 Mindcrank and Duskmantle, milling him for 21 cards, and giving me lethal next turn.
This is an example of Tezzeret providing us with a plan B and giving us long game. I'm still unlocking his power, because most of the time I don't even see this plan. Here I was forced to shift game plans and it happened to work. I was fortunate to have dodged Path of Exile, but I'm not sure what my opponent boarded out or if he was running them at all. These practice matches are somewhat misleading because of the range of skill level and decks you're likely to face, but they help you prepare for anything. A lot of the matches are against good decks though. I still need quite a bit more practice before I start to play competitively.
4 River of Tears
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
3 Swamp
1 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures: 9
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Spellskite
4 Mindcrank
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Æther Vial
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Damnation
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Gut Shot
3 Defense Grid
3 Echoing Truth
-3 Vapor Snag, +3 Defense Grid
Better equipped to handle Delver decks or decks with permission.
Sleight of Hand is an interesting option. I may give that a whirl to see how it works.
@pKinetic -
Certainly in the mana base, avoiding life loss is better than giving life away willy-nilly. But when it comes to Mishra's Bauble vs. Gitaxian Probe, I'm more than willing to spend two life to see my opponent's hand. I value that pretty highly given the type of deck we're playing. And of course I won't always have to spend two life to do it.
@both of ya'll re: Remand -
I'm not totally stuck on remand, it just seems like it pulls it weight far more often than it's bad. I think it might be a mistake to compare how Remand is used in a certain deck or a certain archetype, and then assume that's the only way to use it. It may get boarded out against non-tempo decks in a control shell, but we're a different animal and it fills a different role for us.
For me, Remand is basically the same as the Talisman, but it doesn't cost me life and it cantrips so I'm not down a card. And it has other applications like allowing me to force a Mindcrank onto the battlefield past countermagic. It doesn't ramp, but it does allow me to get to my third land drop with no change in the board state. If I go turn 2 Talisman and then discard something, they still have mana up to drop a Tarmogoyf or a Dark Confidant or whatever. If I remand their turn 2 play, regardless of what it is, I can still discard whatever the worst threat is on my turn 3, and then play one of my many two drops. There's no way to drop two two-drops on turn three (or a Tezz), but because I stalled the opponent's board development, it's pretty close to a wash in my mind. That said, it is lackluster in certain matchups and later in the game it loses some of it's oomph. I'm not opposed to trying something else, but it's gonna have to be good to take Remand's spot. It's just a powerful and versatile card (which is why it sees so much play).
I do like that Tezz digs so deep for Mindcrank. I'll mull things over a bit (and check his price online, LOL).
I like Serum Vision because it helps hit land drops. Thirst for Knowledge might be good too, but I'm not sure if three mana is too steep.
4 River of Tears
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
3 Swamp
Creatures: 9
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Spellskite
4 Mindcrank
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Æther Vial
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Damnation
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
2 Torpor Orb
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Echoing Truth
Modo was bugged for a while, so I hadn't been playing. I've settled on four Spellskite, added more cycling with Gitaxian Probes and cut Thoughtseize all together. Tezzeret continues to fill in the holes and sometimes do heavy lifting. He's won me plenty of games.
The side board is tuned more for Pod as it's been quite hard to beat. The Relics should've always been in there. This should now be more resilient to hate, as there is plenty of it running around, particularly in the form of Ancient Grudge. What a nasty card.
I've been doing satisfyingly well against Burn, even more so now that we have the full set of Spellskites.
We should be ready for prime time folks. Reports coming soon.
Ancient Grudge is rough, but Academy Ruins earns it's keep against it.
Agree with that 3rd main deck spellskite. Card is so solid for us.
Modo still seems buggy to me, so I haven't been on much. Having trouble getting a game finished without it just suddenly ending the match, claiming either me or my opponent wins...
Yesterday was brutal. I played in a couple of dailies and grinded some eight and two mans. I dropped both dailies at 1-1, taking losses to Burn and Melira Pod (I believe it was Melira Pod, but I played so many games). I didn't 2-1 any eight mans, but I attribute most of my losses to poor opening hands. The rest of the loses could have been the result of questionable plays or just plain tilting. I've always known variance to be a part of magic, but at times it prompts you to think negatively. The drawback of playing a deck such as this is that your game plan being linear leaves you with not a lot of margin for error, although Tezzeret tries to alleviate that. The modern meta game is so diverse that beating it depends on favorable draws as much as anything else, in my opinion. I've learned that in order to maximize your chances of winning you must take advantage of every opportunity and make the correct play. You can't get caught up in drawing badly, getting disrupted, or your opponent top decking, which applies to Magic in general. The most important thing I've learned playing this deck is playing the games out. So it helps to keep this in mind because playing this deck in a competitive environment requires really tight play.
A perfect example of this is when I played UWR control with Kiki-Resto combo. In the third game I had a kill on turn six I believe. My opponent had gotten a few hits with Restoration Angel to get me down to nine but I had Mindcrank and Aether Vial with two counters on my board with Duskmantle in hand. I had the mana I needed to activate Duskmantle's first effect. He had two cards in hand, a Snapcaster and an unknown card. He attacked with two angels leaving him with no blockers. He had four mana up but nothing in his graveyard to kill Duskmantle with Snappy, so I went for it end of turn. The unknown card turned out to be Path of Exile. I ended up losing the game, but if played correctly I would have won. How should I have played it?
Today I had much better results, going 3-0 in an eight man and cashing another so far. My play has been a little tighter, and of course it feels like I'm drawing better
Here's a decklist by Barry Egan that Gerry Thompson posted on Starcity.
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Marsh Flats
3 Misty Rainforest
2 River of Tears
1 Tolaria West
3 Watery Grave
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mindcrank
1 Dimir Charm
1 Gut Shot
4 Muddle the Mixture
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Torpor Orb
1 Spellskite
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Disfigure
2 Swan Song
2 Damnation
2 Deathmark
1 Drown in Sorrow
Lots of people will be trying this out now, but since it's pretty hard to play well, I think it will definitely remain below the radar. There are some interesting bits, like the land count, the Pacts, and the Tolaria West. I've never been comfortable at our land count, but as I continued to add cantrips, I thought it might improve. However, I hate having to use my cantrips to dig for mana instead of gas, so more lands seems good to me. Especially as we use our Ghost Quarters more like spells. The fetchlands are interesting, and will get better with Polluted Delta coming soon. Allows you enough mana to make sure you get to 3 by turn 3 every game, while whittling the land count down a little so that you're not drawing as many in the later turns. I know, I know, land thinning isn't statically relavent. To that, I say...whatever!
Some things seem a little off to me, though. I surely don't understand the singleton Leyline of Sanctity in the board, and the Illness in the Ranks seems pretty narrow. Especially considering how quickly Honor of the Pure or Intangible Virtue puts tokens out of range. Minor gripes.
The Illness in the Ranks is good against Young Pyromancer.
The land count is what struck me too. I have yet to try Academy of Ruins but it looks like it works for him as well.
In my example he had the mana to go Path, Snapcaster, Path, but he couldn't Path Duskmantle with my manu up. After I vialed Duskmantle EoT, next turn I activated his effect first then attacked. I realized now it's correct to attack first then wait until the damage step to activate. A lot of mistakes I've made in the past involve not using the stack optimally. I've missed a lot of plays where I could have gone off because I didn't respond to Mindcrank going on the stack.
Still, though, in the example above, you were doomed regardless. He flashes in Snapcaster and blocks. Then, before damage, you're forced to activate the ability in the hopes that his Snapcaster going to the yard will trigger the combo (or you just lose your combo piece, which he's fine with as well). At which point he Paths in response and you're sunk.
Re: Illness in the Ranks. Seems like ratchet bomb is better vs. tokens, to me. It can be tutored up. It can be retrieved with Academy Ruins. And it can do work against things other than tokens as well.
*Edit* I'd also be curious to hear his thoughts on Pact of Negation. I dig that you can fetch it with Tolaria West in order to force something onto the field past countermagic, but then it kills your whole next turn. Or you can use it to make sure you can go off safely, I suppose, when you don't care about next turn's mana because the game will be over. Worth some testing, in any event.
And I thought you were running Gut Shot?
Yep. I missed Snapcaster blocking forcing me to activate.
Dimir charm is good, and more versatile than Geth's.
You might as well run Pact of Negation if you're running Tolaria West.
My latest list hasn't been running Gut Shot, but I've added a singleton along with Slaughter Pact.
I'm having a hard time not seeing Echoing Truth in the sideboard. It's won me more than a few games once I know the hate comes. It even saves your pieces.
One Spellskite in the 75 is tough. Budget not being a concern, it has to be a four of.
The 25 land count allows you to mulligan more aggressively. I guess with no answers to hate, the best you can do is hope to dodge it. I guess I like to be slightly more interactive. This combo does catch a lot of people off guard.
4 Vial
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gut Shot
4 Mindcrank
4 Spellskite
1 Echoing Truth
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Watery Grave
2 River of Tears
4 Underground River
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
So between you, me, and pKinetic, I think we can continue to jam games and post results until we find something resembling 'optimal.' I'm a tad limited by card availability right now, so my results have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Your current list is very very close to what we've been working with, as I'm sure you've noted if you scrolled back a few pages. I'm curious how the Cavern has been working for you lately. Is it good even without Tolaria West? Does it ever burn you in terms of mana/color screw? Between your higher count of targeted discard and the four vials, I have to think it might not be entirely necessary, but I admit I've never tried it.
I also notice you've a new, lower land count. Does it feel more streamlined at 22? The land count in your original list was by far the most interesting bit to me. During testing, I kept feeling like I needed more land, but with the deck having such a low curve it seemed odd to jam more in. And then you post a 4-0 with a whopping 25! I've run a few games at 24 lands and so far I've liked it better than the 21 I was running before. But I'm also running 4 Serum Visions and 4 Sleight of Hand right now, so it's hard for me to tell what's really correct vs. incorrect and simply being masked by card selection/filtering.
Finally, how have you liked the maindeck Echoing Truth? I've never actually considered it for the main, but if it's performing well for you I'm game to try it as it really does work against some powerful hate cards. Not to mention ruining tokens day. I kept a two Echoing Truth hand against Black/White tokens and drew a third. It was nice to combo him out when all he had was a few anthems on the field, and no creatures at all.
I'm impressed with your 4-0. A general report would be nice.
I see you added the full set of spellskites. What's the sideboard look like?
1 Pact of Negation
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Aether Vial
4 Serum Visions
1 Sleight of Hand
4 Inquisition
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gut shot
4 Mindcrank
3 Spellskite
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Island
2 River of Tears
1 Swamp
2 Tolaria West
4 Underground River
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Watery Grave
SB
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deathmark
1 Extirpate
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spellskite
2 Torpor Orb
1 Echoing Truth
1 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
The 4 Leylines may seem bad but there's a lot of burn and discard online and have found it to be almost unbeatable. I side in the Thirst for Knowledge to discard extra/drawn Leylines. I haven't gotten many games in with this list, but I've learned enough that I think it's almost perfect. One thing I'm not sure of is whether you want an alternate win con such as Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas and/or Creeping Tar Pit.
4 River of Tears
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Island
3 Swamp
Creatures: 9
4 Duskmantle Guildmage
2 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Spellskite
4 Mindcrank
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Æther Vial
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Damnation
1 Spellskite
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thoughtseize
2 Torpor Orb
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Echoing Truth
Yeah, there is too much hate to win consistently with a pure combo version. I don't think you need Leylines as they take up too many slots. Cantrips are key to making your deck run consistently, and I don't value transmutors as much, expecially since I run Tezzeret.
This is my current list. I used to run a fourth Tezzeret, but he gets sided out in some match ups. He is excellent against burn, along with spellkite. My toughest match up is Melira Pod, by far. I seem to have terrible luck against it as they seem to have an answer every time. Even when they beat down I should be able to go off before they kill me, but for a while it seems I haven't been able to draw well enough. I don't think I can tune the deck any more to stop it.
There are other match ups that are going to give you problems like Tron and BG/x among others. I think Tezzeret gives you a better percentage against the meta. If a deck is siding in a bunch of hate I prepare for a grind. That's where Tezzeret comes in handy. I pretty much board in Echoing Truths preemptively game two for this reason too.
I run eleven cantrips to mitigate the effect of discard against me. BG/x junk variants, the best discard deck, is going to be a tough match up no matter what. It's draw and die roll dependent, but I'd say it's close to 50/50.
It takes a fair amount of practice and tuning to compete with this strategy. I think it rivals twin. In fact I think I've beaten twin overall, especially since main decking a set of spellskites and adding the torpor orbs and Echoing truths (great against Blood Moon). The deck can win if you're in tune with the meta and adjust your deck accordingly.