Thoughtflare: I wanted a big draw spell in the deck, and I settled on this over Blue Sun's Zenith. However, it may be correct to splash a Hallowed Fountain and just go with the superior Sphinx's Revelation. Or it may be correct to not run a big draw spell at all.
Shadow of Doubt: I was running Squelch for a couple of matches before giving up on it for being a terrible topdeck. It does basically the same thing, but I hadn't considered the added benefit of partially countering Slaughter Games plus being a cantrip that doesn't need a target. I should give it a shot.
Cryptic Command: Triple blue is not difficult at all to assemble. I just honestly don't own any. The deck probably should be running some, as that card enables you to go long, which this build is clearly trying to do.
Nihil Spellbomb: You always have black available, so this guy cantrips just as regularly as Relic of Progenitus. You don't get the added benefit of eating cards from graveyards each turn, but you get huge equity against Eggs, as the Spellbomb just keeps coming back with each Sunrise and doesn't require mana to nuke a graveyard. That logic may not make it correct, but that's why I made that decision.
Aether Vial: This deck is clearly going for the long game with a combo finish. This which means we need every draw to be live, and Aether Vial is a terrible topdeck. All it does is enable nut draws, and this deck isn't set up for that. Which brings me to:
Signets: I've dropped these completely and gone up to 25 lands. The more I play, the more I realize that I really don't want to draw them - they do nothing! I am considering testing Pristine Talisman, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
One avenue that I feel really does need to be explored is putting this combo into a Tezzerator shell, but that's an entirely different direction, and one that I would be very, very interested in seeing someone try. I just don't have any of the pieces for that.
So, by allowing us to get in our kill card in through countermagic, at instant speed, it only "enables nut draws" ???
Say what?
Try playing it any turn other than turn one and see what happens. It's a terrible topdeck and is completely crap in multiples, and this deck already runs the risk of drawing bad multiples. In the list I posted earlier, Aether Vial would not improve it. Not at all. You would need to rebuild the entire list around Aether Vial in order to make that card worth running.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Ah, I see, you were talking about your own particular list... You didn't exactly mention it, you know? We can't guess.
I assumed you were giving out general ideas for this deck. My shell uses (and abuses) aether vial to a decent degree, I mean, guildmage, confidant, spellskite and snapcaster all cost 2 and are all better played at instant (snapcaster obviously already is) and free than by paying for them at sorc speed.
My bad - I should have been more clear. And I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial. I'm just not convinced that going all-out combo is correct.
Actually, let me rephrase. If you want to go all-out for the combo plan, I see no reason to try to assemble this kill over Splinter Twin. Twin decks get run up to 8 of each half of their combo, whereas this combo can only hold a max of 4 of each and needs something else to actually trigger the win. Thus a Twin deck is much more likely to draw into their combo, while we're fuddling around with transmuting Muddle the Mixture just to have a shot at finding the kill.
There are reason to like this combo though. It's resilient to creature removal and can't be easily hated. The only permanent hate that stops it is Rest in Peace, and the only way to disrupt it once assembled is artifact destruction or permanent bounce effects.
I think the best way to reliably assemble the combo is in a hardcore control shell that doesn't care about getting the combo online as fast as possible. That's not to say I'm correct, but just that it feels "right" to me to approach it from this direction.
Try playing it any turn other than turn one and see what happens. It's a terrible topdeck and is completely crap in multiples, and this deck already runs the risk of drawing bad multiples. In the list I posted earlier, Aether Vial would not improve it. Not at all. You would need to rebuild the entire list around Aether Vial in order to make that card worth running.
This is exactly right. If you topdeck an aether vial, you've lost a draw. This is ameliorated with Thirst for Knowledge, but otherwise it is a dead draw.
The deck is a control deck with disruption elements, which happens to win by that combo.
In my testing, the "all-in" version does better in game one, but is easily disrupted G2/3. The tempo & control versions fare nearly as well G1, but both do much better G2/3. I'm still testing to see which is better overall - tempo or control shell.
Beseech the Queen may also be playable as a 3-cost tutor for anything - assuming the mana base can support BBB.
That's true, and the cost isn't too onerous in a 2-color version. However, with transmute we've got enough 3-cost tutors for stuff we care about, and transmute cards can be otherwise useful in supporting the strategy. It is a good idea, but I don't think it is solving a problem I've run into yet.
So I've been doing some more testing, and the results aren't coming back positive. This deck is having a really hard time being reliable, and I've been thinking about the various reasons why.
Each piece of the combo is terrible on its own Mindcrank especially is awful, and Duskmantle Guildmage is pretty bad as well. The other notable 2-card combo in modern, Splinter Twin, runs creatures that can do relevant things even when the combo isn't being assembled. We have a Grizzly Bear and an artifact that literally does nothing except give our opponent graveyard advantage when we don't have the combo together. This means that we sit with dead cards in our hand a lot of the time.
We can only carry up to 4 of each effect in our deck at once
This means that going quickly isn't viable; we need to grind the game out. Even loading up on cantrips and filter spells hasn't been reliable enough for me. This takes me back to point one: if we're grinding the game out, the combo pieces are just dead in hand until we can find a window to stick it, which means that we're looking at card disadvantage.
We're still vulnerable to the most common sideboard hate: artifact destruction
Even though the combo is remarkably resilient to maindeck removal spells, it still has trouble with any form of artifact removal/permanent bounce/etc. So you still need to be able to protect it once it's online - which means that you're working just as hard as, say, a Splinter Twin deck.
I'm not sure where this should go next. The more I test it, the more I feel like I would just be better off playing Splinter Twin. If there's a shell that can put this combo together, it's going to be something really different than what we've seen here.
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I agree with division by zorro. I've played this for a while in a number of different shells. It isn't a competitive deck because both combo pieces are bad by themselves. I often take G1 by surprise, but after that it is just too hard to protect both a do-nothing artifact and a do-nothing creature and keep 3 mana up.
Having both a creature & artifact - and decks mainboard/sideboard a lot of hate for both card types - means your opponent needs only have an answer to one or the other. And the combo pieces provide no value until they go off, so it is very different than pod combos or tron, where you can get something out of pod & tron lands even if it gets destroyed right away. In fact, mindcrank may help your opponent.
Protecting the combo is extra hard because the removal is cheaper than the protection, so your opponent can drop their own creature and path to exile the duskmantle guildmage or shattering spree your mindcrank. And if you don't get a counter in, you've wasted your turn keeping mana up. So you fall behind in board presence for the first several turns by leaving mana to protect your combo. Plus, the tutors are pricier - transmute is 3cc, whereas birthing pod tutors for 2 life, Sylvan Scrying & Expedition Map are cheaper or the costs can be spread across turns.
Going all-in combo isn't great because you end up with duplicate dead cards in your hand, so I put it in a control/tempo shell. But the combo pieces are still lousy, so you end up cutting more and more of them for more tempo/control pieces, relying on transmute for the combo, until you just end up with a bad delver/tempo/control deck with an alternate win condition.
It is fun to play, and it has been competitive at the FNM level, but just isn't something I'd want at a PTQ. Unless someone can post some actual competitive results, I'm moving back to RU affinity, BW tokens & WU turbofog.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I'm not wild about Far // Away here. I think it is too costly and too slow. Options are nice, and I see this works as bounce, protection for duskmantle guildmage, and sac removal. But bounce for 2 or sac for 3 is a little too mana intense - hard to keep mana up for anything else and use either half. It isn't bad, I'd just prefer something like vapor snag for bounce (because it also triggers our combo) or geth's verdict for sac removal (again, triggers the combo) since they're so much cheaper.
Isochron Scepter isn't a bad idea, if only because it'd draw the artifact hate off mindcrank. Attaching far // away would be nice, but it is even nastier to attach counters like remand or mana leak; or some removal like smother; or both with dimir charm.
Neither solve the central problems of combo pieces that do nothing until both sides are on the board and are easily hated. But putting a counter on isochron scepter is sure to draw some of the artifact hate, so that's not a bad idea.
Could Disciple of Deceit give some more life, and a different tutor package to the deck? Play more 2 cmc good stuff and then have the compo as a back up? All you need is some way to tap/untap Disciple repeatedly....
Could Disciple of Deceit give some more life, and a different tutor package to the deck? Play more 2 cmc good stuff and then have the compo as a back up? All you need is some way to tap/untap Disciple repeatedly....
Adding the untapping engine would really dilute the deck, so I don't think Disciple is the way to go.
If we wanted any redundant tutoring, I would just run Muddle the Mixture. It fetches both Guildmage and Crank, and it protects the combo.
But sadly, as you also said, I don't think this deck is very viable right now.
I think disciple probably does have a spot here, you could go all in combo and add the heartless summoning + myr retriever + selhoff occultist/gravestorm combo there too and instead of be redundant just be super combo dense.
I've been working on this deck all by my lonesome for a few weeks now after somebody PM'd me the idea of including the Mindcrank/Guildmage as an alternate win con in a very different deck. I decided the alternate win con was more fun that what I was originally working on, and going all-in combo style has become my new focus. Only recently started to jam some games on MTGO with it. Here is what I'm currently running (due to card availability).
In playing in the Tournament Practice room, the deck feels very close to being competitive. I'm losing more than I'm winning by a wide margin right now, but I'm new to modern, and quite possibly am just not smart enough to play a deck like this. Even so, it seems like I'm in most matches. Lots of them go to 3 games, and I'm frequently realizing I made play errors after the fact which might have altered the outcome. Here is what I wrote to another poster via private message...
So the deck is a fun one to play. With all the tutoring available, you're never far from assembling your combo or a brutal Isochron Scepter. I really, really need 2 more Spellskites to give the deck a fair chance because it seems like every other deck I play in the Tournament Practice room on MTGO is running Abrupt Decay (Jund, Junk, or just straight G/B Rock). That card is tough to beat. Deck's running Abrupt Decay are also usually running some number of one-mana discard spells (i.e. Thoughtseize), which further complicates matters a bit. I've slowly increased my own one-mana discard to fight fire with fire.
I also seem to run into a fair amount of Death and Taxes style decks, which run several cards that crush us, although I managed to beat the green/white version in a tight match. Aven Mindcensor and Leonin Arbiter kill our tutoring, Thalia makes a good portion of our deck worse, bouncing Scepters via Flickerwisp can be a bummer, etc.
But the deck does put pressure on the opponent to have answers and have them quickly. My favorite aspect of Duskmantle Guildmage is that once he's out with the crank, they really can't remove him via instant/sorcery or they instantly lose (assuming you have three mana up to activate him). If our opponent does have answers, though, we can run out of steam pretty quickly with no card draw. Our top-decks are okay, but I still feel like I run out of gas from time to time. Not sure how to fix it without diluting the main angle of attack.
Since posting that, I've also found that a resolved Liliana of the Veil can be rough to deal with. Lately I've been eyeballing the Isochron Scepters. As great as this card seems, it should maybe be a one-of to tutor up along with some of my other silver bullet type cards. I've had a turn 2 Silence-on-a-Stick and still lost. Because you know what else comes down on turn 2 before I can activate it? Tarmogoyf. Same with Remand. If those scepter 'combos' are not a sure thing, why am I still running so many copies? Of course, it has turned a few games around for me as well and definitely draws artifact hate away from Mindcrank...
Also been contemplating the Disciples. Wondering if maybe Dimir Infiltrator isn't just better. It would free up the need for Springleaf Drum and might open up an alt win condition with something like Runechanter's Pike. But I feel like before I cut them, I have to play with all 4 Spellskites first (and I'm not shelling out 40 bucks for them). Maybe with the last 2 spellskites, a couple Creeping Tar-Pits, and a bit more experience, the deck would be fine. Much like the Isochron Scepter, a resolved Disciple will typically draw removal spells, making my combo a little safer in the process. And the extra mana from Springleaf Drum has actually been pretty helpful.
For me, the reason to play a deck like this is the tutoring. It's the only thing that really sets it apart in my mind. Sure, other combo decks find their pieces pretty fast with cantrips. Usually. But I pretty much always have my pieces in hand by turn 4.
*Edit* Does Gitaxian Probe have a spot in the deck? Replacing my four least needed cards with a set of those might be a worthwhile endeavor. I've been in standoffs before against burn where knowing what they had would have been huge (it's entirely possible to get burned out with a lethal Duskmantle activation on the stack). Or maybe just more discard? Wrench Mind?
The goal of this setup is to be able to bait them into loading up on enchantment destruction, switching your gameplan to discard, and bashing face.
I'd take out the Mindcranks, B. ascensions, and a few other cards to cram in the whole sideboard, and just go early control smash/burn while controlling their hand.
It's certainly possible that Bloodchief Ascension is a worthy inclusion, or maybe even better when properly built around. I chose to go with Duskmantle because I could tutor it up with my transmute cards and with Disciple of Deceit. I just really enjoy being able to go get my combo pieces. Dark Confidant, though. That card should maybe be in my list as well. I need some way to get up on cards. Of course I don't have them online...
I feel Dark Confidant would be great in the deck, As long as there aren't any CMC3-drops in it. Gaining an extra card each turn at the price of 0-2 life per card isn't too bad. Something like Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood might help out as a replacement, but I doubt it would be as synergistic.
I'm not crazy about bloodchief ascension because it takes work to turn on. If you're dealing 8-9 damage in the first 3 turns, you may as well just play burn, it'll be more consistent. Also, transmuting T3 is way too late to turn it on - you're looking at a T5 activation which isn't any faster than casting duskmantle guildmage & activating in response to removal.
Muddle the mixture or dimir infiltrator will fetch either combo piece if you're using duskmantle guildmage, and they work immediately, if you have mana and can put something in your opponent's yard. In my experience, the two best things going for the deck is that (1) the 2-drop tutors can fetch 1-of silver bullets from your sideboard G2/G3 and (2) the tempo variant can play the combo as an incidental wincon, and with tutors you don't need lots of combo-piece redundancy. Tutoring for combo pieces also lets you dodge the dreaded T1 thoughtseize.
The problem is the deck spends too long durdling, each combo piece is bad on its own, and . Adding Disciple of Deceit to work with Springleaf Drum feels like more of the same. They're both bad on their own, but pretty good together, which increases the variance on this high variance deck. They also don't impact the board, which is a problem in the deck. Maindecking Spellskite feels right, but I'd put it in more of an all-in shell like in the first post.
The only potentially relevant card I've seen since Gatecrash has been maybe swan song to counter removal, and that's only marginally better than dispel. Everything else seems worse than what we have - ulcerate typically isn't as good as dismember, bile blight is OK and tutorable, drown in sorry is OK too, but I can't think of when we'd want them over existing removal options.
The ramp from the drum is nice, but the deck really needs better card draw and cantrips. However, due to more consistent combo decks like storm, those won't be forthcoming. I'd be happy to be wrong, I still have the deck put together and collecting dust.
With my all-in version, I never really feel like I'm durdling. At least not at first. With most keepable hands, I'm pretty close to assembling my combo and am aggressively working towards that. The durdling around, at least in my experience, happens when an initial bout of disruption (counters, discard, creature kill, or permanent destruction) stalls me out, and then I've got a grip of situationally bad counters and goofy topdecks like Springleaf Drum.
Rune Snag may be too cute in my list. Was originally chosen due to its synergy with Disciple of Deceit. Maybe something like Boomerang would be better. Or a better counterspell in general. If I lighten up on the Isochron Scepter theme, I imagine Cryptic Command might be worth considering. While it can't be tutored up, the overall power level might make up for it.
I think you'll find that 20 lands is not going to be enough. Transmuting costs 3, and unless you have a Spellskite out or some other way to protect your Duskmantle Guildmage, it's dangerous to put him out until you have access to 5 mana so that you can activate his ability in response to removal. Getting to 5 mana on 20 lands, even with cantrips, can take too long in modern.
I definitely think Spellskite belongs in the deck, as well. Your targeted removal will help a little bit vs. Abrupt Decay, but you can't stop the topdecks. Otherwise, I like where you're going with it and would be curious to see how a more cantrippy version does for you. Thought Scour is a particularly nice idea.
The budget build on the front page isn't a bad place to start. Use whatever lands you have, maybe go up to 23 lands, and swap in remand for spell pierce & smother.
Budget B/U Version: The budget version is cheap to build and very reliable. The only downside is that the alternate wincon is a bit weaker.
If you want to go all-in, you don't need the tar pit, delver, or pike. You may want the full 4x mindcrank and guildmage. Some people earlier were suggesting 4x Springleaf Drum and 4x Disciple of Deceit for an all-in version. I haven't tested it, but it is definitely budget friendly, and anything that accelerates you is going to help.
I think you'll find that 20 lands is not going to be enough. Transmuting costs 3, and unless you have a Spellskite out or some other way to protect your Duskmantle Guildmage, it's dangerous to put him out until you have access to 5 mana so that you can activate his ability in response to removal. Getting to 5 mana on 20 lands, even with cantrips, can take too long in modern.
I definitely think Spellskite belongs in the deck, as well. Your targeted removal will help a little bit vs. Abrupt Decay, but you can't stop the topdecks. Otherwise, I like where you're going with it and would be curious to see how a more cantrippy version does for you. Thought Scour is a particularly nice idea.
Yeah, I'm actually thinking about going more "all-in" with the last 8 cards, running the Æther Vials and Gut Shots. That way, I can probably skip on running more lands (especially since I'm running more cantrips and some filtering in Serum Visions) - I'm not sure about that, though.
Btw.: If you're running 8 discard spells and 4 Muddle the Mixture, running a Duskmantle Guildmage out there isn't nearly as dangerous as you might imagine - depending on the match-up, of course. If you're not getting overwhelmed quickly (which could be a big problem and the reason to run some removal), you can basically transmute for your missing/removed combo piece over and over and try to protect it with discard and counters.
I think I'll put something like the list you're proposing together for some testing. However, I'm not sold on Aether Vial. Being able to get a combo piece out past countermagic is nice, but I suspect with 8 targeted discard, you'll be able to force an opening and/or play around counters as needed. It seems like a really bad topdeck, and against some opponents, not even that necessary. That said, it does enable a turn 3 surprise kill that can't really be stopped (barring the occasional trickbind, I suppose). Actually, it might be worth it just to make the opponent sweat every sorcery/instant they cast. Maybe I just talked myself into it. I don't think gut shot is better than Spellskite, though. Spellskite not only protects your combo, but actively messes up some tier 1 and tier 2 decks. I'll use a couple of those (since that's all I own) in place of the Gut Shots.
*Edit* Also been considering Ensnaring Bridge somewhere in the 75, maybe even mainboard. Seems good against a lot of modern decks.
Match 1 vs. Infect (2-0)
He mulled to 5, I had a Thoughtseize and a Spellskite in my opener. I took a couple hits from a glistener elf while assembling my combo. I think I had it together by turn 5 or 6, but he was never really in it. Singleton Gut Shot was ready to do work also, but wasn't needed.
Game 2 he had a good start with 8 poison by turn two off of mutagenic + mutagenic + giant growth. But my Spellskite came down on turn 2 also (whew!), and a Raven's Crime took his last card, which was an Apostle's Blessing. He conceded a little early, I thought, because I didn't quite have combo assembled. I was going to transmute it up, though...
Match 2 vs. Eggs (2-0)
Had the "turn 3" Aether Vial kill set up, but he didn't cast anything for me to spring the trap on him. So turn 4 combo win instead.
Game 2 he got mana screwed and I basically goldfished a turn 5 combo win.
Match 3 vs. some sort of Bant Ramp brew (1-0)
I had a good hand and assembled my combo pretty quickly after a couple early discard spells, but was stalled on 2 mana for a long time and couldn't kill him. He got a little flooded, but conceded the entire match in what I can only assume was a fit or rage??
Match 4 vs. Junk Urzatron Reanimator Brew (2-1)
These games were fun and I had some really good hands. In game 1, an Abrupt Decay on my Aether Vial broke up what was going to be a turn 3 kill. I battled on while he reanimated an Ashen Rider. I was one mana short of being able to Ghost Quarter him for the win, but a reanimated eldrazi ended that plan.
Game 2 I was color screwed at first. But then an Aether Vial and a Mindcrank were drawn, which saved me from that. Then I was mana screwed for a bit. Luckily I got both pieces down with Spellskite protection, because he was holding Abrupt Decay and some Memoricide clone with Convoke. Eventually he tried to Abrupt Decay my Guildmage, and I activated his ability in response for the win.
Game 3 we both had good hands. I had the turn 3 win set up via Aether Vial, and he had a turn 4 Memoricide-like spell (can't remember name), but I vialed Duskmantle in response, then activated Duskmantle in response, and combo'd him out.
Thoughts:
Need to jam more games, but Aether Vial can be really, really potent. The difference between turn 3 and 4 is huge. Now, it seemed like I had that sequence of cards an inordinately high percentage of the time, so i don't want to get all psyched about something that may not really happen that often. But man, it was fun when it happened. Spellskite was good. Want more. Transmuters did their thing. Not 100% convinced Dimir Infiltrator is better than Disciple of Deceit. Disciple is 'MUST KILL' critter, but her tutoring can be broken up. Infiltrator isn't a scary creature, but the transmute can't be stopped...
21 lands was barely enough. 22 might be correct (with my setup. More cantrips might change that). Only cast Thought Scour once, and that was to dig for land. Discard was good, not suprising news I suppose). Overall it was pretty fun and felt at least a little streamlined. Mana base needs work, but that will come with more $.
Remand is typically pretty good, as most 'timewalks' tend to be. Since I'm very aggressively trying to put my combo out, I sometimes just need that one extra turn to get it online. It works great when you remand a fat spell, rip a Thoughtseize off the top (I'm not usually saving my Thoughtseizes just to improve my Remands), and then pluck said spell from their hand. It was actually Remand which caused my round 3 opponent to rage quit, now that I think about it. He finally ramped up to some huge amount of mana and tried to cast some fatty, only to have it go back to his hand.
So I should try Serum Visions in place of what? Thought Scour? I can do that. With so many other ways to start the combo up (discard, gutshot, infiltrator, sneaky Aether Vial activation) I may not really need Thought Scour as much.
As for sideboarding, I've got nothing yet. The Aether Vial has me thinking some nice bullets like Phyrexian Revoker should be there. Any other good hateful two-mana creatures in blue/black/colorless? Or non-creatures, for that matter? Leyline of the Void might be good vs. Graveyard abusers. Ensnaring Bridge since I don't need to attack? (why is that card so expensive? I remember buying them for a $1 back in the day). What do we do about a resolved Rest in Peace? I could sideboard an isochron scepter and a couple answers from other colors to go with it? Like Abrupt Decay? Into the Roil?
Sooooo, disregard that bit about Leyline of the Void being a good sideboard card. No sense in short circuiting my entire combo with replacement effects. I crammed a few Serum Visions in the deck and got a couple games in.
Bant Knights Brew (2-1)
He had a decent start, pressuring with exalted knights. I had my combo pieces on line, but my three lands were Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter, and island. Serum Visions binned a couple non-black sources to help me get to a swamp quicker. The turn before he would have got me I drew it and Ghost Quartered him for the combo win.
Second game I had a decent start, but was slowed down by two Qasali Pridemages killing my two Mindcranks. I was okay with that as I had an Academy Ruins to get them back, but his other threats beat me down and he finished me off before I could get everything online. Might have been some other lines to take there.
Third game he had a less aggressive start, but had turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity, making all my discard booty. I once again Ghost Quarter killed him after stalling on lands for a few turns. That's becoming a bit of a theme.
UW Venser control Brew -
Game one saw me discard a couple counterspells, assemble the combo with Vial out, and combo him in response to path.
Game 2 he had turn 0 Leyline, but he repeated them same mistake as game one and tried to Celestial Purge the Guildmage. He also tapped low too quickly for non-impactful spells (Wall of Omens and Venser).
so I haven't faced any serious decks yet, but I'm liking things so far. Ghost Quarter proved it's worth, and while I'd like more, I'm having issues with color screw already. Once I get more blue/black lands (Darkslick Shores, namely) maybe I can find room for more. I liked Serum Visions both times I cast it.
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
Shadow of Doubt: I was running Squelch for a couple of matches before giving up on it for being a terrible topdeck. It does basically the same thing, but I hadn't considered the added benefit of partially countering Slaughter Games plus being a cantrip that doesn't need a target. I should give it a shot.
Cryptic Command: Triple blue is not difficult at all to assemble. I just honestly don't own any. The deck probably should be running some, as that card enables you to go long, which this build is clearly trying to do.
Nihil Spellbomb: You always have black available, so this guy cantrips just as regularly as Relic of Progenitus. You don't get the added benefit of eating cards from graveyards each turn, but you get huge equity against Eggs, as the Spellbomb just keeps coming back with each Sunrise and doesn't require mana to nuke a graveyard. That logic may not make it correct, but that's why I made that decision.
Aether Vial: This deck is clearly going for the long game with a combo finish. This which means we need every draw to be live, and Aether Vial is a terrible topdeck. All it does is enable nut draws, and this deck isn't set up for that. Which brings me to:
Signets: I've dropped these completely and gone up to 25 lands. The more I play, the more I realize that I really don't want to draw them - they do nothing! I am considering testing Pristine Talisman, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.
One avenue that I feel really does need to be explored is putting this combo into a Tezzerator shell, but that's an entirely different direction, and one that I would be very, very interested in seeing someone try. I just don't have any of the pieces for that.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Try playing it any turn other than turn one and see what happens. It's a terrible topdeck and is completely crap in multiples, and this deck already runs the risk of drawing bad multiples. In the list I posted earlier, Aether Vial would not improve it. Not at all. You would need to rebuild the entire list around Aether Vial in order to make that card worth running.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
My bad - I should have been more clear. And I agree with your assessment of Aether Vial. I'm just not convinced that going all-out combo is correct.
Actually, let me rephrase. If you want to go all-out for the combo plan, I see no reason to try to assemble this kill over Splinter Twin. Twin decks get run up to 8 of each half of their combo, whereas this combo can only hold a max of 4 of each and needs something else to actually trigger the win. Thus a Twin deck is much more likely to draw into their combo, while we're fuddling around with transmuting Muddle the Mixture just to have a shot at finding the kill.
There are reason to like this combo though. It's resilient to creature removal and can't be easily hated. The only permanent hate that stops it is Rest in Peace, and the only way to disrupt it once assembled is artifact destruction or permanent bounce effects.
I think the best way to reliably assemble the combo is in a hardcore control shell that doesn't care about getting the combo online as fast as possible. That's not to say I'm correct, but just that it feels "right" to me to approach it from this direction.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
This is exactly right. If you topdeck an aether vial, you've lost a draw. This is ameliorated with Thirst for Knowledge, but otherwise it is a dead draw.
In my testing, the "all-in" version does better in game one, but is easily disrupted G2/3. The tempo & control versions fare nearly as well G1, but both do much better G2/3. I'm still testing to see which is better overall - tempo or control shell.
That's true, and the cost isn't too onerous in a 2-color version. However, with transmute we've got enough 3-cost tutors for stuff we care about, and transmute cards can be otherwise useful in supporting the strategy. It is a good idea, but I don't think it is solving a problem I've run into yet.
Each piece of the combo is terrible on its own
Mindcrank especially is awful, and Duskmantle Guildmage is pretty bad as well. The other notable 2-card combo in modern, Splinter Twin, runs creatures that can do relevant things even when the combo isn't being assembled. We have a Grizzly Bear and an artifact that literally does nothing except give our opponent graveyard advantage when we don't have the combo together. This means that we sit with dead cards in our hand a lot of the time.
We can only carry up to 4 of each effect in our deck at once
This means that going quickly isn't viable; we need to grind the game out. Even loading up on cantrips and filter spells hasn't been reliable enough for me. This takes me back to point one: if we're grinding the game out, the combo pieces are just dead in hand until we can find a window to stick it, which means that we're looking at card disadvantage.
We're still vulnerable to the most common sideboard hate: artifact destruction
Even though the combo is remarkably resilient to maindeck removal spells, it still has trouble with any form of artifact removal/permanent bounce/etc. So you still need to be able to protect it once it's online - which means that you're working just as hard as, say, a Splinter Twin deck.
I'm not sure where this should go next. The more I test it, the more I feel like I would just be better off playing Splinter Twin. If there's a shell that can put this combo together, it's going to be something really different than what we've seen here.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Having both a creature & artifact - and decks mainboard/sideboard a lot of hate for both card types - means your opponent needs only have an answer to one or the other. And the combo pieces provide no value until they go off, so it is very different than pod combos or tron, where you can get something out of pod & tron lands even if it gets destroyed right away. In fact, mindcrank may help your opponent.
Protecting the combo is extra hard because the removal is cheaper than the protection, so your opponent can drop their own creature and path to exile the duskmantle guildmage or shattering spree your mindcrank. And if you don't get a counter in, you've wasted your turn keeping mana up. So you fall behind in board presence for the first several turns by leaving mana to protect your combo. Plus, the tutors are pricier - transmute is 3cc, whereas birthing pod tutors for 2 life, Sylvan Scrying & Expedition Map are cheaper or the costs can be spread across turns.
Going all-in combo isn't great because you end up with duplicate dead cards in your hand, so I put it in a control/tempo shell. But the combo pieces are still lousy, so you end up cutting more and more of them for more tempo/control pieces, relying on transmute for the combo, until you just end up with a bad delver/tempo/control deck with an alternate win condition.
It is fun to play, and it has been competitive at the FNM level, but just isn't something I'd want at a PTQ. Unless someone can post some actual competitive results, I'm moving back to RU affinity, BW tokens & WU turbofog.
Isochron Scepter isn't a bad idea, if only because it'd draw the artifact hate off mindcrank. Attaching far // away would be nice, but it is even nastier to attach counters like remand or mana leak; or some removal like smother; or both with dimir charm.
Neither solve the central problems of combo pieces that do nothing until both sides are on the board and are easily hated. But putting a counter on isochron scepter is sure to draw some of the artifact hate, so that's not a bad idea.
Could Disciple of Deceit give some more life, and a different tutor package to the deck? Play more 2 cmc good stuff and then have the compo as a back up? All you need is some way to tap/untap Disciple repeatedly....
Adding the untapping engine would really dilute the deck, so I don't think Disciple is the way to go.
If we wanted any redundant tutoring, I would just run Muddle the Mixture. It fetches both Guildmage and Crank, and it protects the combo.
But sadly, as you also said, I don't think this deck is very viable right now.
4 Disciple of Deceit
2 Spellskite
1 Dimir Infiltrator
3 Mindcrank
3 Springleaf Drum
3 Isochron Scepter
3 Remand
3 Muddle the Mixture
1 Into the Roil
1 Boros Charm
1 Geth's Verdict
1 Raven's Crime
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
23 lands (which do not include Creeping Tar-Pit
In playing in the Tournament Practice room, the deck feels very close to being competitive. I'm losing more than I'm winning by a wide margin right now, but I'm new to modern, and quite possibly am just not smart enough to play a deck like this. Even so, it seems like I'm in most matches. Lots of them go to 3 games, and I'm frequently realizing I made play errors after the fact which might have altered the outcome. Here is what I wrote to another poster via private message...
Since posting that, I've also found that a resolved Liliana of the Veil can be rough to deal with. Lately I've been eyeballing the Isochron Scepters. As great as this card seems, it should maybe be a one-of to tutor up along with some of my other silver bullet type cards. I've had a turn 2 Silence-on-a-Stick and still lost. Because you know what else comes down on turn 2 before I can activate it? Tarmogoyf. Same with Remand. If those scepter 'combos' are not a sure thing, why am I still running so many copies? Of course, it has turned a few games around for me as well and definitely draws artifact hate away from Mindcrank...
Also been contemplating the Disciples. Wondering if maybe Dimir Infiltrator isn't just better. It would free up the need for Springleaf Drum and might open up an alt win condition with something like Runechanter's Pike. But I feel like before I cut them, I have to play with all 4 Spellskites first (and I'm not shelling out 40 bucks for them). Maybe with the last 2 spellskites, a couple Creeping Tar-Pits, and a bit more experience, the deck would be fine. Much like the Isochron Scepter, a resolved Disciple will typically draw removal spells, making my combo a little safer in the process. And the extra mana from Springleaf Drum has actually been pretty helpful.
For me, the reason to play a deck like this is the tutoring. It's the only thing that really sets it apart in my mind. Sure, other combo decks find their pieces pretty fast with cantrips. Usually. But I pretty much always have my pieces in hand by turn 4.
*Edit* Does Gitaxian Probe have a spot in the deck? Replacing my four least needed cards with a set of those might be a worthwhile endeavor. I've been in standoffs before against burn where knowing what they had would have been huge (it's entirely possible to get burned out with a lethal Duskmantle activation on the stack). Or maybe just more discard? Wrench Mind?
Why use Duskmantle instead of Bloodchief Ascension, is it a budget choice?
If so, then you probably won't like this list:
4 Spark Elemental
4 Dark Confidant
3 Spellskite
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Magma Jet
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Mindcrank
Lands(21):
4 Watery Grave
4 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Graven Cairns
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Island
Sideboard swap for game two:
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Cry of Contrition
4 Augur of Skulls
The goal of this setup is to be able to bait them into loading up on enchantment destruction, switching your gameplan to discard, and bashing face.
I'd take out the Mindcranks, B. ascensions, and a few other cards to cram in the whole sideboard, and just go early control smash/burn while controlling their hand.
I feel Dark Confidant would be great in the deck, As long as there aren't any CMC3-drops in it. Gaining an extra card each turn at the price of 0-2 life per card isn't too bad. Something like Night's Whisper or Sign in Blood might help out as a replacement, but I doubt it would be as synergistic.
Muddle the mixture or dimir infiltrator will fetch either combo piece if you're using duskmantle guildmage, and they work immediately, if you have mana and can put something in your opponent's yard. In my experience, the two best things going for the deck is that (1) the 2-drop tutors can fetch 1-of silver bullets from your sideboard G2/G3 and (2) the tempo variant can play the combo as an incidental wincon, and with tutors you don't need lots of combo-piece redundancy. Tutoring for combo pieces also lets you dodge the dreaded T1 thoughtseize.
The problem is the deck spends too long durdling, each combo piece is bad on its own, and . Adding Disciple of Deceit to work with Springleaf Drum feels like more of the same. They're both bad on their own, but pretty good together, which increases the variance on this high variance deck. They also don't impact the board, which is a problem in the deck. Maindecking Spellskite feels right, but I'd put it in more of an all-in shell like in the first post.
The only potentially relevant card I've seen since Gatecrash has been maybe swan song to counter removal, and that's only marginally better than dispel. Everything else seems worse than what we have - ulcerate typically isn't as good as dismember, bile blight is OK and tutorable, drown in sorry is OK too, but I can't think of when we'd want them over existing removal options.
The ramp from the drum is nice, but the deck really needs better card draw and cantrips. However, due to more consistent combo decks like storm, those won't be forthcoming. I'd be happy to be wrong, I still have the deck put together and collecting dust.
Rune Snag may be too cute in my list. Was originally chosen due to its synergy with Disciple of Deceit. Maybe something like Boomerang would be better. Or a better counterspell in general. If I lighten up on the Isochron Scepter theme, I imagine Cryptic Command might be worth considering. While it can't be tutored up, the overall power level might make up for it.
I'll start toying with some new configurations.
I definitely think Spellskite belongs in the deck, as well. Your targeted removal will help a little bit vs. Abrupt Decay, but you can't stop the topdecks. Otherwise, I like where you're going with it and would be curious to see how a more cantrippy version does for you. Thought Scour is a particularly nice idea.
Budget B/U Version: The budget version is cheap to build and very reliable. The only downside is that the alternate wincon is a bit weaker.
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Ghost Quarter
4 Island
3 Swamp
2 Underground River
Creatures
3 Duskmantle Guildmage
3 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Mindcrank
1 Runechanter's Pike
Instants/Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thought Scour
3 Muddle the Mixture
3 Spell Pierce
2 Duress
3 Dismember
3 Smother
3 Gut Shot
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Torpor Orb
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Devour Flesh
3 Relic of Progenitus
If you want to go all-in, you don't need the tar pit, delver, or pike. You may want the full 4x mindcrank and guildmage. Some people earlier were suggesting 4x Springleaf Drum and 4x Disciple of Deceit for an all-in version. I haven't tested it, but it is definitely budget friendly, and anything that accelerates you is going to help.
I think I'll put something like the list you're proposing together for some testing. However, I'm not sold on Aether Vial. Being able to get a combo piece out past countermagic is nice, but I suspect with 8 targeted discard, you'll be able to force an opening and/or play around counters as needed. It seems like a really bad topdeck, and against some opponents, not even that necessary. That said, it does enable a turn 3 surprise kill that can't really be stopped (barring the occasional trickbind, I suppose). Actually, it might be worth it just to make the opponent sweat every sorcery/instant they cast. Maybe I just talked myself into it. I don't think gut shot is better than Spellskite, though. Spellskite not only protects your combo, but actively messes up some tier 1 and tier 2 decks. I'll use a couple of those (since that's all I own) in place of the Gut Shots.
*Edit* Also been considering Ensnaring Bridge somewhere in the 75, maybe even mainboard. Seems good against a lot of modern decks.
4 Mindcrank
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Remand
4 Thought Scour
2 Spellskite
1 Gut Shot
1 Academy Ruins
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Darkslick Shores
4 Drowned Catacomb
3 Island
7 Swamp
4 Watery Grave
Match 1 vs. Infect (2-0)
He mulled to 5, I had a Thoughtseize and a Spellskite in my opener. I took a couple hits from a glistener elf while assembling my combo. I think I had it together by turn 5 or 6, but he was never really in it. Singleton Gut Shot was ready to do work also, but wasn't needed.
Game 2 he had a good start with 8 poison by turn two off of mutagenic + mutagenic + giant growth. But my Spellskite came down on turn 2 also (whew!), and a Raven's Crime took his last card, which was an Apostle's Blessing. He conceded a little early, I thought, because I didn't quite have combo assembled. I was going to transmute it up, though...
Match 2 vs. Eggs (2-0)
Had the "turn 3" Aether Vial kill set up, but he didn't cast anything for me to spring the trap on him. So turn 4 combo win instead.
Game 2 he got mana screwed and I basically goldfished a turn 5 combo win.
Match 3 vs. some sort of Bant Ramp brew (1-0)
I had a good hand and assembled my combo pretty quickly after a couple early discard spells, but was stalled on 2 mana for a long time and couldn't kill him. He got a little flooded, but conceded the entire match in what I can only assume was a fit or rage??
Match 4 vs. Junk Urzatron Reanimator Brew (2-1)
These games were fun and I had some really good hands. In game 1, an Abrupt Decay on my Aether Vial broke up what was going to be a turn 3 kill. I battled on while he reanimated an Ashen Rider. I was one mana short of being able to Ghost Quarter him for the win, but a reanimated eldrazi ended that plan.
Game 2 I was color screwed at first. But then an Aether Vial and a Mindcrank were drawn, which saved me from that. Then I was mana screwed for a bit. Luckily I got both pieces down with Spellskite protection, because he was holding Abrupt Decay and some Memoricide clone with Convoke. Eventually he tried to Abrupt Decay my Guildmage, and I activated his ability in response for the win.
Game 3 we both had good hands. I had the turn 3 win set up via Aether Vial, and he had a turn 4 Memoricide-like spell (can't remember name), but I vialed Duskmantle in response, then activated Duskmantle in response, and combo'd him out.
Thoughts:
Need to jam more games, but Aether Vial can be really, really potent. The difference between turn 3 and 4 is huge. Now, it seemed like I had that sequence of cards an inordinately high percentage of the time, so i don't want to get all psyched about something that may not really happen that often. But man, it was fun when it happened. Spellskite was good. Want more. Transmuters did their thing. Not 100% convinced Dimir Infiltrator is better than Disciple of Deceit. Disciple is 'MUST KILL' critter, but her tutoring can be broken up. Infiltrator isn't a scary creature, but the transmute can't be stopped...
21 lands was barely enough. 22 might be correct (with my setup. More cantrips might change that). Only cast Thought Scour once, and that was to dig for land. Discard was good, not suprising news I suppose). Overall it was pretty fun and felt at least a little streamlined. Mana base needs work, but that will come with more $.
So I should try Serum Visions in place of what? Thought Scour? I can do that. With so many other ways to start the combo up (discard, gutshot, infiltrator, sneaky Aether Vial activation) I may not really need Thought Scour as much.
As for sideboarding, I've got nothing yet. The Aether Vial has me thinking some nice bullets like Phyrexian Revoker should be there. Any other good hateful two-mana creatures in blue/black/colorless? Or non-creatures, for that matter? Leyline of the Void might be good vs. Graveyard abusers. Ensnaring Bridge since I don't need to attack? (why is that card so expensive? I remember buying them for a $1 back in the day). What do we do about a resolved Rest in Peace? I could sideboard an isochron scepter and a couple answers from other colors to go with it? Like Abrupt Decay? Into the Roil?
*Edit* Ratchet Bomb? Torpor Orb?
Bant Knights Brew (2-1)
He had a decent start, pressuring with exalted knights. I had my combo pieces on line, but my three lands were Academy Ruins, Ghost Quarter, and island. Serum Visions binned a couple non-black sources to help me get to a swamp quicker. The turn before he would have got me I drew it and Ghost Quartered him for the combo win.
Second game I had a decent start, but was slowed down by two Qasali Pridemages killing my two Mindcranks. I was okay with that as I had an Academy Ruins to get them back, but his other threats beat me down and he finished me off before I could get everything online. Might have been some other lines to take there.
Third game he had a less aggressive start, but had turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity, making all my discard booty. I once again Ghost Quarter killed him after stalling on lands for a few turns. That's becoming a bit of a theme.
UW Venser control Brew -
Game one saw me discard a couple counterspells, assemble the combo with Vial out, and combo him in response to path.
Game 2 he had turn 0 Leyline, but he repeated them same mistake as game one and tried to Celestial Purge the Guildmage. He also tapped low too quickly for non-impactful spells (Wall of Omens and Venser).
so I haven't faced any serious decks yet, but I'm liking things so far. Ghost Quarter proved it's worth, and while I'd like more, I'm having issues with color screw already. Once I get more blue/black lands (Darkslick Shores, namely) maybe I can find room for more. I liked Serum Visions both times I cast it.