It's simply mindcrank combo shoved into a deck with thopter sword combo, the obligatory 4x Muddle the Mixture since it tutors either piece of either combo, and some protection to force it through. I really like Dimir Charm on paper, for shoring up aggro matchups, binning an opponent's card to start the combo, OR fatesealing yourself and potentially even getting a Sword in the graveyard.
I love Skite main, but they might want to be Ensnaring Bridges game 1. Postboard, if your opponent has access to white mana, the game either becomes "keep them off RIP" if you are going for Mindcrank combo, "keep them off Stony Silence" if you are going for Thopter aggro, or "forget both and play alternate win cons" if you end up with Tasigur/Wurmcoil instead of a likely combo hand.
It's simply mindcrank combo shoved into a deck with thopter sword combo, the obligatory 4x Muddle the Mixture since it tutors either piece of either combo, and some protection to force it through. I really like Dimir Charm on paper, for shoring up aggro matchups, binning an opponent's card to start the combo, OR fatesealing yourself and potentially even getting a Sword in the graveyard.
I love Skite main, but they might want to be Ensnaring Bridges game 1. Postboard, if your opponent has access to white mana, the game either becomes "keep them off RIP" if you are going for Mindcrank combo, "keep them off Stony Silence" if you are going for Thopter aggro, or "forget both and play alternate win cons" if you end up with Tasigur/Wurmcoil instead of a likely combo hand.
RIP kills your thopter engine too sadly
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I fooled with it for a while, but the results were not what I wanted. I found the deck to be really fragile for some reason, easy to disrupt even with muddle to tutor. To be fair I didn't run 100 matches for real thorough testing though.
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Legacy RB Goblins
Yes. I essentially took the typical mindcrank deck, took out a couple counters and discard, and slid in 3 foundry 2 sword. For some reason I had a terrible time with it. That's not to say it can't be done, I didn't have any good results. To be fair, I haven't been making very good decisions lately. I'm sure that's a huge factor.
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Why are you running Dimir Infiltrator over Muddle the Mixture? The only reason I can think of would be to run a Grixis list and pair it with Kolaghan's Command, running Liliana the Last Hope, or something with a graveyard recursion engine. Mindcrank combo isn't something you really want to rush out, either. I'd recommend cutting down to two copies of each combo piece and then running more tutors.
I tried Muddle the Mixture (it is too narrow as a counterspell) and found it less useful than Dimir Infiltrator which can be another body on the board as a blocker (or attacker) and is easier to cast/transmute (without the UU cost).
Tasigur provides sort-of graveyard recursion.
Since the "transmute" mechanic is clunky and slow (3 mana at sorcery speed) I prefer to max out on the combo pieces and rely on filtering like Thirst for Knowledge (another option is the sorcery speed Compulsive Research) to get rid of redundant copies rather than running more tutors.
Seems like if you want dig/quality in a control shell then forbidden alchemy is going to provide the best card selection even though it's not CA. It combines very well with delve though, and with enough discard and control elements you can have more say over the threat density.
A grixis shell with kolaghans command seems especially nice as you can the make early and get it back later. I'm going to start brewing a bit with it as I really like the idea. I'll post if I get anything with traction in testing.
I tried Muddle the Mixture (it is too narrow as a counterspell) and found it less useful than Dimir Infiltrator which can be another body on the board as a blocker (or attacker) and is easier to cast/transmute (without the UU cost).
Tasigur provides sort-of graveyard recursion.
Since the "transmute" mechanic is clunky and slow (3 mana at sorcery speed) I prefer to max out on the combo pieces and rely on filtering like Thirst for Knowledge (another option us the sorcery speed Compulsive Research) to get rid of redundant copies rather than running more tutors.
It may be clunky, but tutoring is tutoring. How often do your opponents allow you to recur the infiltrators? The main advantage of Muddle is the slot efficiency- it's situational protection for the combo and it's a sorcery speed tutor. Given how starved for slots most control decks are, I value this trait very highly. I will admit that not being able to flash them back with Snapcaster in a pinch does make Muddle less attractive. The main problems with this combo are that both pieces are useless on their own, and both pieces are easy to interact with. Every bit of remotely relevant protection you can cram in is worth it.
Seems like if you want dig/quality in a control shell then forbidden alchemy is going to provide the best card selection even though it's not CA. It combines very well with delve though, and with enough discard and control elements you can have more say over the threat density.
A grixis shell with kolaghans command seems especially nice as you can the make early and get it back later. I'm going to start brewing a bit with it as I really like the idea. I'll post if I get anything with traction in testing.
It's certainly the route I took. Being able run Bolt is very, very handy. Here's the list I've been using:
^^
Any progress with the deck ?
Now with Fatal Push we don't need Bolt and can stay in "Dimir" colors.
I'm still not sure what is the best control package and what should be the deck's plan B of winning.
I'm also not sure that Gurmag Angler us the best secondary threat alongside Tasigur but with only 21 lands I need something cheap (or with cost-reduction).
i love the look of this. Supreme will seems a great way to dig for the missing pieces. im currently playtesting a mardu version of the deck, utilizing bloodchief ascension over the guildmage
The new Search for Azcanta seems like a perfect addition to the deck as it help dig for the combo while filtering draws and milling cards to enable Tasigur and Snapcaster and turning into a land that can find Mindcrank (or any other non-creature spell) later in the game. Muddle the Mixture can also tutor for it.
I got some games with it online and I really like it so far.
The deck deals well with control decks and midrange decks with the combination of efficient disruption and a combo finish later in the game.
The hardest matchup by far is Burn (and other fast aggro decks) as the manabase is painful and there is no lifegain in the colors.
I haven't played against Tron yet so I'm not sure how it'll go, I might need to add some Rain of Tears to the SB in addition to Ceremonious Rejection which is already there against Eldrazi Tron/Affinity.
How do you guys feel about the new Mastermind's Acquisition? It gives you four extra combo pieces, and can also give you "I win" hate cards game one, and can also be a tutor for about anything in the deck. I know wish cards see extensive play in vintage and legacy, especially in combo decks. I used to play twin then Pili Pala in modern but quit modern for commander for awhile, and I want to come back
It doesn't really fit the deck imho being a 4-mana card (especially in my deck with only 21x lands) while Muddle the Mixture
(which can get both parts of the combo) costs 3-mana to transmute and can also counter spells.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
I can't imagine trying to play this deck without Pact of Negation. The combo is fragile and once assembled its nice to have a counterspell to protect it.
Pact is definitely worth consideration, but it's something I never tested. How many would you run? Seems like if you want it to consistently protect your combo, you'd need 4 copies because you're hoping to combo off pretty early (it can be primed to go off as early as turn 3). But it also seems like a bit of a bad draw if you don't have the combo online.
Other, preemptive ways to protect the combo (e.g. Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spellskite ) have moderate value at any point in the game, whereas Pact is really only playable on that final turn.
*Edit* I assumed the reintroduction of BBE into the format would increase the prevalence of both Kolaghan's Command and Ancient Grudge, once again making this deck a bad choice. If your meta is full of Jund, I'd steer clear of this.
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But here's some Turn 3 Pr0n for anybody who stumbles across it in the future
U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
It's simply mindcrank combo shoved into a deck with thopter sword combo, the obligatory 4x Muddle the Mixture since it tutors either piece of either combo, and some protection to force it through. I really like Dimir Charm on paper, for shoring up aggro matchups, binning an opponent's card to start the combo, OR fatesealing yourself and potentially even getting a Sword in the graveyard.
I love Skite main, but they might want to be Ensnaring Bridges game 1. Postboard, if your opponent has access to white mana, the game either becomes "keep them off RIP" if you are going for Mindcrank combo, "keep them off Stony Silence" if you are going for Thopter aggro, or "forget both and play alternate win cons" if you end up with Tasigur/Wurmcoil instead of a likely combo hand.
RIP kills your thopter engine too sadly
U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
I like the combo and tried building a control deck around it, here:
4x Duskmantle Guildmage
3x Dimir Infiltrator
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (16)
2x Go for the Throat
2x Victim of Night
4x Remand
2x Mana Leak
1x Countersquall
1x Hero's Downfall
4x Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (11)
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Mindcrank
Land (21)
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Dismember
2x Languish
3x Countersquall
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Echoing Truth
1x Gurmag Angler
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Ratchet Bomb
Tasigur provides sort-of graveyard recursion.
Since the "transmute" mechanic is clunky and slow (3 mana at sorcery speed) I prefer to max out on the combo pieces and rely on filtering like Thirst for Knowledge (another option is the sorcery speed Compulsive Research) to get rid of redundant copies rather than running more tutors.
A grixis shell with kolaghans command seems especially nice as you can the make early and get it back later. I'm going to start brewing a bit with it as I really like the idea. I'll post if I get anything with traction in testing.
It may be clunky, but tutoring is tutoring. How often do your opponents allow you to recur the infiltrators? The main advantage of Muddle is the slot efficiency- it's situational protection for the combo and it's a sorcery speed tutor. Given how starved for slots most control decks are, I value this trait very highly. I will admit that not being able to flash them back with Snapcaster in a pinch does make Muddle less attractive. The main problems with this combo are that both pieces are useless on their own, and both pieces are easy to interact with. Every bit of remotely relevant protection you can cram in is worth it.
It's certainly the route I took. Being able run Bolt is very, very handy. Here's the list I've been using:
3 Mindcrank
3 Duskmantle Guildmage
Value 30
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
3 Muddle the Mixture
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
2 Cryptic Command
1 Far // Away
2 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Cascade Bluffs
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Sunken Hollow
Any progress with the deck ?
Now with Fatal Push we don't need Bolt and can stay in "Dimir" colors.
I'm still not sure what is the best control package and what should be the deck's plan B of winning.
I'm also not sure that Gurmag Angler us the best secondary threat alongside Tasigur but with only 21 lands I need something cheap (or with cost-reduction).
Other options can probably be:
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Vendilion Clique or a PW like Liliana, the Last Hope or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver/Jace, Architect of Thought.
Maybe even Duskmantle Seer that can trigger Mindcrank and help draw cards.
4x Duskmantle Guildmage
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (17)
3x Fatal Push
2x Victim of Night
4x Remand
3x Mana Leak
2x Muddle the Mixture
3x Thirst for Knowledge
Sorcery (10)
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Mindcrank
Land (21)
4x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
2x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Countersquall
2x Victim of Night
1x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
2x Languish
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pithing Needle
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Ratchet Bomb
I'm still unsure about the maindeck counters: 4x Remand + 3x Mana Leak, should I maindeck some Spell Snare/Countersquall instead ?
Or maybe some more removal or more Snapcaster Mages ?
Also for removal is: 3x Fatal Push + 2x Victim of Night enough or should there be some number of Dismember/Murderous Cut added as well ?
I think that Supreme Will can be a good addition to the deck being both a tool to dig for the combo and a counterspell.
Here is my updated list:
4x Duskmantle Guildmage
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instant (17)
4x Fatal Push
2x Victim of Night
4x Remand
4x Muddle the Mixture
3x Supreme Will
Sorcery (10)
4x Serum Visions
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Mindcrank
Land (21)
4x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Flooded Strand
2x Watery Grave
4x Darkslick Shores
2x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Echoing Truth
2x Ceremonious Rejection
3x Countersquall
2x Go for the Throat
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Damnation
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ratchet Bomb
i love the look of this. Supreme will seems a great way to dig for the missing pieces. im currently playtesting a mardu version of the deck, utilizing bloodchief ascension over the guildmage
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/mardu-crank/
Muddle the Mixture can also tutor for it.
To add 2x copies of it I'd take out: 1x Mindcrank and 1x Supreme Will or even 2x Mindcrank.
The deck deals well with control decks and midrange decks with the combination of efficient disruption and a combo finish later in the game.
The hardest matchup by far is Burn (and other fast aggro decks) as the manabase is painful and there is no lifegain in the colors.
I haven't played against Tron yet so I'm not sure how it'll go, I might need to add some Rain of Tears to the SB in addition to Ceremonious Rejection which is already there against Eldrazi Tron/Affinity.
(which can get both parts of the combo) costs 3-mana to transmute and can also counter spells.
Thopter Sword seems decent since the tutors hit that as well, but it does take extra slots and loses to grave and artifact hate.
Other, preemptive ways to protect the combo (e.g. Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, Spellskite ) have moderate value at any point in the game, whereas Pact is really only playable on that final turn.
*Edit* I assumed the reintroduction of BBE into the format would increase the prevalence of both Kolaghan's Command and Ancient Grudge, once again making this deck a bad choice. If your meta is full of Jund, I'd steer clear of this.