Actually, the moral of the story is that you should consider jumping out of the (bad) tribe enough to benefit. Just throwing in Slivers for the sake of them being Slivers is a bad idea, mmk?
chosen stop saying vampires are bad. they are not ´´the best´´ but they are not terrible either.
on the other hand polish zombies are pretty good actually. you can pretty much play mono black or splash any color(white for path,dude in the boat cant remember name, and more),
but this is a vampire threat not a zombie threat, so chosen please, no offence, make another post for zombies if you want to.
chosen stop saying vampires are bad. they are not ´´the best´´ but they are not terrible either.
on the other hand polish zombies are pretty good actually. you can pretty much play mono black or splash any color(white for path,dude in the boat cant remember name, and more),
but this is a vampire threat not a zombie threat, so chosen please, no offence, make another post for zombies if you want to.
I'm not saying they're inherently bad, but rather, I'm suggesting that the OP amongst many others has fallen into the trap of building a tribe to death by including its bad playables merely because they fit the type.
This deck caught my eye after seeing it in a few tournament lists. I decided to try it out casually, and I'm actually impressed with how good it is. You've got nice undercost creatures and you can command a fast aggro game and get a quick kill, but there's also enough control and discard to prevent you from being completely cold against combo. Liliana is awesome. Bob prevents the deck from running out of fuel in the longer games, and you've got enough burn/removal to clear the path for your little Vampires to win the day. Stromkirk's first ability seems pretty inconsequential, until you realize just how many other popular creatures are actually Humans.
I haven't taken it to any tournaments, but so far in my (admittedly limited) playing of the deck, I haven't lost a match yet. Decks I've beaten include Death & Taxes, Modern Soul Sisters, and Splinter Twin.
It's my main deck atm for Modern. Trying to get the most mileage out of the old event deck!
There's a few match ups that are still pretty rough, mainly the tier 1 aggro variety like Delver/Loam. It's hard protecting Bob when he's one of the main keys to win that match up and their 1-drops are just nuts. Storm can be a problem still, but it's your call if you can make room in your sideboard for Mindbreak Traps.
I haven't had a chance to test Vampires online against U/W Cawblade, but it works fine against them in my local area. Cavern of Souls will definitely make that match up a lot easier. Spell Snares screwed up any Gatekeeper plays on their Geists, so the new land will be worth the extra money. Tron seems like a fair game if you can manage to Molten Rain + Surgical their lands.
Were there any specific match ups that felt 50/50ish Mike?
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Budgeted of course. I'd say add Thoughtsieze instead of Duress in the sb if $ isn't an issue. But my thoughts are red isn't very necessary until g2/3 when you sb. Stromkirk is the only one I would justify being in the main deck until you know what you're playing. You could play around with the numbers on the sb.
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[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
Please keep the focus of this thread on the archetype in question. If you have a question as to why this thread is in competitive use the report button or PM me. I've allowed it to stay because the OP has put up IMO the minimum criteria for it to be here.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Were there any specific match ups that felt 50/50ish Mike?
Let's see, in all of the very small MUs I've had, I've felt like I've had the advantage.
I had an answer for everything Soul Sisters tried to do - I got rid of their Sisters fast by either destroying or saccing them, and Stromkirk Noble slides in for easy damage because literally all of their creatures are Humans. They're pretty soft to hand disruption as well as an active Liliana.
Death & Taxes was a bit tougher, but still in Vamps' favor I think. Liliana is easily the best card against them.
The Twin MU was probably the toughest. I'd say it's about 55-45% in our favor. Vampires has enough discard and removal to keep them off their combo most of the time, but sometimes they can still go off. Spellskite is also a pain in the ass. Destroy it immediately.
I've played against U/W CawBlade variants, Jund, Tron (w/Karn), Delver/Loam, and tons of variations of Zoo.
Cawblade seems 50/50ish depending if they can get a resolved Geist into play, but I feel that the match up becomes unfavorable once both players are ripping from the top. If you can get Liliana up and running early, it just becomes one-sided. Lov'n Liliana!
Tron isn't bad. It's really easy games 2-3 with Molten Rain/Surgicals. Siding in additional Artifact removal helps too. First game you just have to rely on luck.
Delver/Loam is miserable. There's nothing much to say other than changing roles from an aggro to control. I'm not entirely sure if Black Sun Zenith should be considered in the SB if the meta calls for it. There's not a whole lot of room left and Killing Wave just seems more at home in this deck. What do you guys think?
Zoo is still a slight problem. It was obscene when it had punishing fire, but now it feels like a downgraded version of Loam, but I haven't played against any versions with Thalia yet.
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I'd like to leave it there, but that's spam. I contend that it's better than Kalastria in almost every way.
Kalastria:
+ 2/2 body Vs 0/1 body.
+ Do 2/Gain 2 Vs Do 1/Gain 1.
Blood Artist:
+ 1B Vs BB. (Though if you have trouble hitting BB you need to go back to the drawing board.)
+ Free ability Vs B. (This is huge, IMO. The fact that you can just do it for free every time allows you to use your mana in controlling the game instead of having to wait around. You can cast Gatekeeper following Blood Artist and still get the ability, whilst keeping tempo.)
I'm not strictly saying "This > Kalastria", but it has some good points, and I feel they should both see play here. It would make for a much more controlling game though, as it is a 0/1, so you can't poke them when the opportunity arises, and you will need other dudes to get damage in.
I can see a return of B/R Vampires(+Zombies) Aggro returning to standard with this card + Grave Crawler + Bloodflow Connoisseur, but it's something that would require a lot of testing. I can't think of a situation where I'd rather have this over Kalistra when my opponent is back in board position in a control match up. You can usually rely on chipping out an opponent by just kamikaz'n, but the Artist doesn't have that pressure of "take 2 or take 2".
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If you can manage to sneak 2 out in play, then it's pretty legit like having 2+ Suture Priest in Pauper for reach, but still not the same role as Kalastria.
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why not Stromkirk noble in place of Vampire lacerator (blood artist eventually maybe)? Terminate instead of Smother? I invested in Blade of the Bloodchief but I'm not quite sold - this feels likel it should be should be somthing better... maybe Lightning Bolt?
I'm suprised to see no mention of Magma Jet or Blightning in this thread.
Between scrying with Seer and Jet, I have yet to find it necessary to break symmetry and go off-tribal with Dark Confidant.
Maybe it's just the absence of Blood Crypt, but I suspect that even with a few Crypts Stromkirk Noble is hard to drop turn 1. I've got too many other good things to do turns 2-5 than cast Noble.
As much as I love the new Blood Artist, he's got mono-black Nocturnus Vamps written all over him. R/B needs to play a balanced mix of burn, removal, and hand disruption + consistent bear pokes each turn. Highborn brings immediate pressure, and the built in sac outlet on Falkenrath Aristocrat enhances Highborn's agenda.
Speaking of Aristocrat...Cavern of Soul's. 'Nuff said.
I also like Arc Trail MB. It's extremely rare that it doesn't earn it's spot. Worst case scenerio it's 2 direct to opponent and 1 to ping Bloodghast for a Highborn activation.
@Thunderpig: Rarely. If it looks like I might miss my turn four land drop and need it badly, I almost always find it with a scry.
Hmmm. F Bolt over Trail huh? That makes me nervous lol.
@Lego: Tracker stinks against aggro. Lacerator is a work horse who gets his bear beats fast. Personally, I'd consider Tracker in mono-black Nocturnus, but not in B/R.
Stormkirk Noble, Bloodcrazed Neonate, Markov Blademaster, Stormkirk Captain, Gatekeeper of Malakir could all be put into a version focused more on removing their threats to ensure early damage to get those +1/+1 counters, something like this:
4x Bloodcrazed Neonate
4x Markov Blademaster
4x Stormkirk Noble
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Stormkirk Captain
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Terminate
4x Dark Confidant
4x Inquistion of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
20 land
Cocaktrice Game Room Quotes
[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
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It seems like you need about 22 - 23 land to reliably cast a 3 cc spell on turn 3 (without filtering or scry or similar).
@Polish: I would love to see a build like that using Small Pox somewhere in the maindeck. Cheap resiliant beaters with some burn/removal in the mainboard supported with available disruption in the side... Looks like a recipe for a beating. Black Zoo...
Seems like he loves hardraping opponent's hand with Blightning. Cool MD anyway. Vampire+Zombies awww <3
Lightning Bolt and Blightning are just that good. So good it justifies splashing red. Red artifact hate in SB is key too.
Blightning does violate an opponent's hand effectively and Inquisition/Thoughtseize/Duress are superb for getting some intel.
We discuss at length about burn, removal, threats, tempo, curve, fixing, meta, synergies, combos, etc.
Quite frankly, I find hand disruption and information to be the most important element in my games. Hence, I run x3 Inquisition (peek and stall), x3 Blightning (rape) and in the SB goes x4 Duress (peek and neuter).
I don't care much for 28 creatures as listed above. If I was playing straight aggro, I'd play Zoo instead. I see the appeal of recursion tricks though.
What do you think about blood artist? Kinda like highborn, only no activation cost and no restriction to vampires, or even creatures you control. The downside is you are limited to only leaching one life. It's mana cost is also easier.
Edit: just read the thread. Im the fourth person to suggest the card.
Here's one of the latest build I've been working on. I might drop Seers entirely since they seem like a dead card over 50% of the time against some Tier 1 decks. Maybe for 2 Thoughtseizes in their place. I switched out the old anti-Tron tech for Fulminator Mages since they can potentially be un-counterable. Cavern is still good around 2-3, but 4 seems too excessive and it becomes difficult to get Terminate or Liliana online. I'm sticking with 2 for now, but I'm open to ideas for a better mana base.
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Interesting how this deck worked out. The sideboard is questionable...
Yo, this is Lantern's friend Tobyjuan, Just had a quick idea that maybe Liliana of the Veil would be a good inclusion to the deck, her discard ability is less annoying when you have recuring creatures like bloodghast and it would help a ton more against combo and control.
Here's one of the latest build I've been working on. I might drop Seers entirely since they seem like a dead card over 50% of the time against some Tier 1 decks. Maybe for 2 Thoughtseizes in their place. I switched out the old anti-Tron tech for Fulminator Mages since they can potentially be un-counterable. Cavern is still good around 2-3, but 4 seems too excessive and it becomes difficult to get Terminate or Liliana online. I'm sticking with 2 for now, but I'm open to ideas for a better mana base.
I would be much more concerned about Cavern diluting the mana base for casting a kicked Gatekeeper and Highborn activation on turn 3 than casting Liliana.
I'm not sure Cavern is necessary at all TBH. If you were counting on Nocturnus or Aristocrat to finish, then yes, but here I dunno. Sure it's good but B/R Vamps is all about tempo, and if something disrupts that tempo it goes onto the chopping block imo.
Also when assessing Cavern, take into consideration some of the colored mana intensity of the deck; Highborn, Bloodghast, Liliana, Gatekeeper, Terminate, Volcanic Fallout, Shattering Spree, Fulminator Mage.
on the other hand polish zombies are pretty good actually. you can pretty much play mono black or splash any color(white for path,dude in the boat cant remember name, and more),
but this is a vampire threat not a zombie threat, so chosen please, no offence, make another post for zombies if you want to.
I'm not saying they're inherently bad, but rather, I'm suggesting that the OP amongst many others has fallen into the trap of building a tribe to death by including its bad playables merely because they fit the type.
I haven't taken it to any tournaments, but so far in my (admittedly limited) playing of the deck, I haven't lost a match yet. Decks I've beaten include Death & Taxes, Modern Soul Sisters, and Splinter Twin.
Is anyone out there still playing this deck?
WBGJunk TokensGBW
Multiplayer:
WWWLuminarch StonebladeWWW
BBBMono-Black ControlBBB
GRGKessig PredatorsGRG
There's a few match ups that are still pretty rough, mainly the tier 1 aggro variety like Delver/Loam. It's hard protecting Bob when he's one of the main keys to win that match up and their 1-drops are just nuts. Storm can be a problem still, but it's your call if you can make room in your sideboard for Mindbreak Traps.
I haven't had a chance to test Vampires online against U/W Cawblade, but it works fine against them in my local area. Cavern of Souls will definitely make that match up a lot easier. Spell Snares screwed up any Gatekeeper plays on their Geists, so the new land will be worth the extra money. Tron seems like a fair game if you can manage to Molten Rain + Surgical their lands.
Were there any specific match ups that felt 50/50ish Mike?
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With Cavern of souls and Blood Artist being released in AVR, Vampires should have a few things to think about.
The combination of Kalastria Highborn and Blood Artist seems like a blood bath!
4 Kalastria Highborn
3 Stromkirk Captain
4 Bloodghast
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Viscera Seer
3 Vampire Lacerator
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Smother
1 Phyrexian Arena
3 Blade of the Bloodchief
Land
14 Swamp
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Mountain
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Combustion
2 Feast of Blood
2 Shattering Spree
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Duress
2 Dash Hopes
1 Smother
Budgeted of course. I'd say add Thoughtsieze instead of Duress in the sb if $ isn't an issue. But my thoughts are red isn't very necessary until g2/3 when you sb. Stromkirk is the only one I would justify being in the main deck until you know what you're playing. You could play around with the numbers on the sb.
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Formats played: Modern
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Cocaktrice Game Room Quotes
[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
Let's see, in all of the very small MUs I've had, I've felt like I've had the advantage.
I had an answer for everything Soul Sisters tried to do - I got rid of their Sisters fast by either destroying or saccing them, and Stromkirk Noble slides in for easy damage because literally all of their creatures are Humans. They're pretty soft to hand disruption as well as an active Liliana.
Death & Taxes was a bit tougher, but still in Vamps' favor I think. Liliana is easily the best card against them.
The Twin MU was probably the toughest. I'd say it's about 55-45% in our favor. Vampires has enough discard and removal to keep them off their combo most of the time, but sometimes they can still go off. Spellskite is also a pain in the ass. Destroy it immediately.
What MUs have You faced so far, Polish?
WBGJunk TokensGBW
Multiplayer:
WWWLuminarch StonebladeWWW
BBBMono-Black ControlBBB
GRGKessig PredatorsGRG
Im going to jump in and agree on the Liliana is your key against D+T. (I play D+T)
When we had to face Jund, it was a 50/50 for the D+T player. Liliana made it more like a 35/40.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyCawblade seems 50/50ish depending if they can get a resolved Geist into play, but I feel that the match up becomes unfavorable once both players are ripping from the top. If you can get Liliana up and running early, it just becomes one-sided. Lov'n Liliana!
Tron isn't bad. It's really easy games 2-3 with Molten Rain/Surgicals. Siding in additional Artifact removal helps too. First game you just have to rely on luck.
Delver/Loam is miserable. There's nothing much to say other than changing roles from an aggro to control. I'm not entirely sure if Black Sun Zenith should be considered in the SB if the meta calls for it. There's not a whole lot of room left and Killing Wave just seems more at home in this deck. What do you guys think?
Zoo is still a slight problem. It was obscene when it had punishing fire, but now it feels like a downgraded version of Loam, but I haven't played against any versions with Thalia yet.
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I can see a return of B/R Vampires(+Zombies) Aggro returning to standard with this card + Grave Crawler + Bloodflow Connoisseur, but it's something that would require a lot of testing. I can't think of a situation where I'd rather have this over Kalistra when my opponent is back in board position in a control match up. You can usually rely on chipping out an opponent by just kamikaz'n, but the Artist doesn't have that pressure of "take 2 or take 2".
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PolishTamales.com
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You can catch some of my work at TOKYOPOP & on the Playboy Channel! Don't miss Celebrity Sex Tales!
PolishTamales.com
Graphical Contributor to LegitMTG.com & Comic Contributor to ManaDeprived.com
Merged with DC Vamps Thread. t_c
The old Deck Creation Thread is here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=380588 if anyone needs it for reference.
3 Viscera Seer
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Bloodghast
3 Kalastria Highborn
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Falkenrath Aristocrat
Instant (11)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
2 Terminate
2 Go for the Throat
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Blightning
3 Arc Trail
Land (20)
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Graven Cairns
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
4 Swamp
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Duress
3 Stromkirk Captain
3 Rain of Gore
2 Burst Lightning
I'm suprised to see no mention of Magma Jet or Blightning in this thread.
Between scrying with Seer and Jet, I have yet to find it necessary to break symmetry and go off-tribal with Dark Confidant.
Maybe it's just the absence of Blood Crypt, but I suspect that even with a few Crypts Stromkirk Noble is hard to drop turn 1. I've got too many other good things to do turns 2-5 than cast Noble.
As much as I love the new Blood Artist, he's got mono-black Nocturnus Vamps written all over him. R/B needs to play a balanced mix of burn, removal, and hand disruption + consistent bear pokes each turn. Highborn brings immediate pressure, and the built in sac outlet on Falkenrath Aristocrat enhances Highborn's agenda.
Speaking of Aristocrat...Cavern of Soul's. 'Nuff said.
I also like Arc Trail MB. It's extremely rare that it doesn't earn it's spot. Worst case scenerio it's 2 direct to opponent and 1 to ping Bloodghast for a Highborn activation.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Hmmm. F Bolt over Trail huh? That makes me nervous lol.
@Lego: Tracker stinks against aggro. Lacerator is a work horse who gets his bear beats fast. Personally, I'd consider Tracker in mono-black Nocturnus, but not in B/R.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
20 land
Cockatrice username- Chrismp19.
Formats played: Modern
Avatar and Sig created by http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182339
Cocaktrice Game Room Quotes
[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
American Nightmare (3-1)
Modern Daily #3785938 on 04/26/2012
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Blood Crypt
4 Marsh Flats
11 Swamp
Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Blightning
2 Doom Blade
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Doom Blade
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Volcanic Fallout
Interesting how this deck worked out. The sideboard is questionable...
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It seems like you need about 22 - 23 land to reliably cast a 3 cc spell on turn 3 (without filtering or scry or similar).
@Polish: I would love to see a build like that using Small Pox somewhere in the maindeck. Cheap resiliant beaters with some burn/removal in the mainboard supported with available disruption in the side... Looks like a recipe for a beating. Black Zoo...
Faithless Looting to toss out some combination of Bloodghast and Gravecrawler seems okay. Then it's kinda like draw 2 cards for R
Lightning Bolt and Blightning are just that good. So good it justifies splashing red. Red artifact hate in SB is key too.
Blightning does violate an opponent's hand effectively and Inquisition/Thoughtseize/Duress are superb for getting some intel.
We discuss at length about burn, removal, threats, tempo, curve, fixing, meta, synergies, combos, etc.
Quite frankly, I find hand disruption and information to be the most important element in my games. Hence, I run x3 Inquisition (peek and stall), x3 Blightning (rape) and in the SB goes x4 Duress (peek and neuter).
I don't care much for 28 creatures as listed above. If I was playing straight aggro, I'd play Zoo instead. I see the appeal of recursion tricks though.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW
Edit: just read the thread. Im the fourth person to suggest the card.
Hoping for a cure, or at least an outbreak.
Level 1 Judge (yay)
4 Bloodghast
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Kalastria Highborn
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Vampire Lacerator
2 Viscera Seer
Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Arc Trail
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Shattering Spree
2 Surgical Extraction
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PolishTamales.com
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Yo, this is Lantern's friend Tobyjuan, Just had a quick idea that maybe Liliana of the Veil would be a good inclusion to the deck, her discard ability is less annoying when you have recuring creatures like bloodghast and it would help a ton more against combo and control.
Edit: 'Nathed
I would be much more concerned about Cavern diluting the mana base for casting a kicked Gatekeeper and Highborn activation on turn 3 than casting Liliana.
I'm not sure Cavern is necessary at all TBH. If you were counting on Nocturnus or Aristocrat to finish, then yes, but here I dunno. Sure it's good but B/R Vamps is all about tempo, and if something disrupts that tempo it goes onto the chopping block imo.
Also when assessing Cavern, take into consideration some of the colored mana intensity of the deck; Highborn, Bloodghast, Liliana, Gatekeeper, Terminate, Volcanic Fallout, Shattering Spree, Fulminator Mage.
Modern
RBig RedR
GMean GreenG
WWW AlliesW
BGScavengeBG
WUVenser SilenceWU
EDH
RWAurelia 1 vs 1RW
GWURoonGWU
GWSaffiGW