Bug could grant access to Bitterblossom, which could allow you to cut pretty much all creatures except your combo pieces. And even then you might not need to run the full 4 of each piece. 1 of each would guarantee the combo after two Leap activations, but that's probably not the most foolproof plan... Collected Company would also not be necessary in the Bitterblossom scenario. You could then do the typical black control elements (targeted discard and removal (Shriekmaw?)) Or some blue based digging and a dash of countermagic.
Still, kind of hard to argue with "haven't lost a game yet." I'm definitely liking Shackles, though. That just seems too fun not to sleeve it up at some point.
*Edit* Of course, the entire concept above just turned your beatdown deck into a control deck, which is probably not what you're after. Being able to club the opponent to death if they stumble is nice.
"haven't lost a game" was true until it stopped being true
I like Bitterblossom here. But i'm wondering if we're going for one of each piece if it's the right combo to run? I guess it's cheaper (mana wise) than the usual suspects Kiki and Feeder/Angel. Hmm that might actually be the direction to go. Especially since CoCo hasn't performed in the deck so far and I can still run the Shackles which has been one of the main reasons I've won a lot of the games.
EDIT: Emmy might actually be the best win con here, since it shuffles the Pili and Acrhitect back in if they get killed.
It's cheaper than most other options, but the 'untap' ability on Pili-Pala is still subject to summoning sickness, which has bothered me in the past when toying around with this particular combo. Maybe Melira and her partners in crime? If that seems good, we'll have to take it back to the other thread. Still, I like what you've got going on here.
That's definitely its biggest weakness. I actually first realized it was effected by Summoning Sicknesss when I first played the deck. If it wasn't it would be tough to deal with removal wise and actually somewhat powerful. If we're going for 1 of each piece Spellskite might help us, especially since it can be cast off of Architect. It's also a shame that BUG doesn't have a lot of options outside of Bitterblossom when it comes to token making because we might need a plan b in case the combo doesn't work. I guess there's Garruk and stuff like Batterskull might be good too (especially if we randomly draw into Architect).
If I were to go forward with the RUG list I think I might try cutting CoCo for Domri Rade, especially since his fight ability seems good with Shackles and Hangarback.
Hey folks. Pretty new here and I stumbled upon this thread. The deck looks like a lot of fun to play. I think that if you were focusing on the combo, then black might help. Discard of course, but also have you considered Necrotic Ooze?
Yeah, as we discussed black is the natural splash if we cut some of the combo pieces since Kessig Wolf Run is the main reason to stay in red. A BUG list could look something like this maybe:
So I'm crossposting this from my Modern Four Horsemen thread to see if anyone can help with it. The current build uses the Grand Architect + Pili-Pala combo in tandem with Mesmeric Orb to make a Four Horsemen-esque combo. The list I have been using lately looks like:
- Grand Architect + Pili-Pala making infinite mana, then hardcast Emrakul. If he's in your deck then you can use Courier's Capsule (or Skill Borrower) to draw then cast him.
- Once you have the Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Mesmeric Orb (or some combination of Fatestitcher or Unbender Tine) you can reanimate Skill Borrower with Unburial Rites and then flip your deck to put Narcomoeba in play. Then you flip to Blasting Station and sac the Narcombea. Flip to Emrakul and repeat the process till they're dead.
- With infinite mana you can use Golem Artisan to make a infinite P/T Flying + Trample + Haste creature and one shot them.
- The opponent can't disrupt your flipping combo since Grand Architect + Pili-Pala is a mana ability. It will always be untapped, so if they put something on the stack you can reset the gamestate to before they casted the spell, except it will be on the stack now, and then combo out at normal. Therefor the combo is faster than instant speed.
- With Fatestitcher + Unbender Tine + Skill Borrower you can still get mana by flipping to a Grand Architect then a Pili-Pala, this means you always have access to the infinite mana combo.
- Skill Borrower can counter removal spells by using Spellskite to redirect it then Batterskull to bounce back to your hand. Then you can just recast it if you have infinite mana (which you always have!)
- Basically if it's in your deck you have access to it and can win however you want. There are a ton more combos, but these are a couple of the main things that come up.
Some things I was thinking of to improve it would be going esentally 5C like Affinity does. I could use Darksteel Citadel, Glimmervoid, and Mox Opal for acceleration. Then I'd have access to Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting to discard combo cards like Golem Artisan or Unburial Rites that I don't need till later. It could also help make a slightly more consistent mana base and allow for more powerful cards.
In short, the deck is removal proof. No it does not violate slow play rules. Yes it requires a lot of combo pieces so there is a lot of room for disruption before we assemble the combo.
I don't think I like how many combos there are. Once you've assembled everything for one of them it's semi-unstoppable, but you have zero interaction to make sure you get to that point.
It's pretty easy to disrupt since there are several moving pieces, and a single Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Faerie Macabre/Grafdigger's Cage really messes up/stops the combo even if you do get everything together.
Seems like the deck would be much better served by running more interaction and tutors with just one or two of the win conditions/combos.
I'm still a little foggy on how the deck is "removal proof." If you're referring to the fact that mana abilities can't be responded to, I certainly get that. Or that once you've got enough pieces of the various combos out, you can flip to an answer in response to removal. I get that, too. But as you noted, getting to said point seems to be the real trick, no? While you're building up to your combo, the deck isn't removal proof. Or am I missing something?
Ways to improve any version of the deck probably revolve around getting faster, more resilient, or more interactive in some way.
In creature heavy versions, Aether Vial could provide that EoT surprise Pili-Pala when an opponent can't respond. Works well with Myr Superion, too, for versions running it. Other ways to flash guys in that are on-color include Shimmer Myr or Leyline of Anticipation.
Haste is a possibility, too. If Pili-Pala resolves and immediately has haste for some reason, you'll have your infinite mana straight-off with no way for the opponent to respond. There's the classic, Fervor, of course. Or Hammer of Purphoros, but that double red looks rough. A third 3 mana option would be Temur Ascendancy, and that could jive with decks playing fatter dudes for the card draw. At four mana, and probably too slow to matter, we have Sarkhan Vol*Edit* Nevermind...timestamps or something. Lightning Mauler could work in a more beatdown oriented approach, I suppose, but the fact that it triggers and thus gives the opponent a chance to respond kind of defeats the purpose as far as the Pili-Pala combo is concerned.
Whip of Erebos could do the haste thing for the Mesmeric Orb deck, as well as providing some added combo redundancy in general and shoring up some aggressive match-ups.
@Badabingbadabum,
Probably cut back on some removal to make room for your Shackles, since it kind of doubles as (slow) removal?
I'm still a little foggy on how the deck is "removal proof." If you're referring to the fact that mana abilities can't be responded to, I certainly get that. Or that once you've got enough pieces of the various combos out, you can flip to an answer in response to removal. I get that, too. But as you noted, getting to said point seems to be the real trick, no? While you're building up to your combo, the deck isn't removal proof. Or am I missing something?
Ways to improve any version of the deck probably revolve around getting faster, more resilient, or more interactive in some way.
In creature heavy versions, Aether Vial could provide that EoT surprise Pili-Pala when an opponent can't respond. Works well with Myr Superion, too, for versions running it. Other ways to flash guys in that are on-color include Shimmer Myr or Leyline of Anticipation.
Haste is a possibility, too. If Pili-Pala resolves and immediately has haste for some reason, you'll have your infinite mana straight-off with no way for the opponent to respond. There's the classic, Fervor, of course. Or Hammer of Purphoros, but that double red looks rough. A third 3 mana option would be Temur Ascendancy, and that could jive with decks playing fatter dudes for the card draw. At four mana, and probably too slow to matter, we have Sarkhan Vol*Edit* Nevermind...timestamps or something. Lightning Mauler could work in a more beatdown oriented approach, I suppose, but the fact that it triggers and thus gives the opponent a chance to respond kind of defeats the purpose as far as the Pili-Pala combo is concerned.
Whip of Erebos could do the haste thing for the Mesmeric Orb deck, as well as providing some added combo redundancy in general and shoring up some aggressive match-ups.
No the deck isn't removal proof while you are assembling the combo, but once you have it there are very very few cards that can stop it. Basically nothing standard played in Modern can stop the combo once you assemble it.
While you are assembling the combo you have things like Spellskite to protect your creatures. The creature combo pieces can be recurred from the graveyard so getting them back isn't the biggest problem in the world.
For haste on the Pili-Pala there is a possibility of using the newly spoiled Forerunner of Slaughter to give it haste in tandem with Skill Borrower but you'd need some way of flipping it to the top of your deck.... which you need the Pili-Pala for so it might not be that viable.
Whip is nice, but it costs a lot to use. Maybe something cheaper like Postmortem Lunge will fit better.
I think things like Ancient Stirrings are necessary for the consistency of the deck. The multicolour landbase allows us to run all the colours we want so ti shouldn't be too much of a problem. The Thought Scour can probably be taken out as Mesmeric Orb does that on it's own. I want to keep in the Fatestitcher as they are an untap combo on their own, have haste, and can be discard fodder. They might just be too clunky though which could lead to playing Voltaic Construct + Palladium Myr as they ramp on their own but are more fragile. This is way less likely to happen, but it is still an option.
Perhaps redundancy and digging for the combo is the way to go. Ditching some of the more clunky combo pieces (looking at you Unbender Tine) would create room for them, but then it feels like all the eggs are in one basket kind of thing.
Value is good. But Dredgevine isn't supposed to be about value. It's supposed to be about V-8; 2000 pounds of nitro boosted war vegetables. The more velocity, the better.
Modern:
DredgeVine EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima Standard:
Looking at what BFZ offers, I'm liking Bring to Light. With Converge at most 3, you can get either Grand Architect or Pili-Pala to complete the mana combo. Or if you have infinite mana, use it to Converge 5 for some finisher, e.g. Increasing Confusion.
Could also add a few one-ofs to make the deck more "toolbox."
My version of the deck plays CoCo. Additionally, that gives me access to Nature's Claim in the sideboard. I also play Pyromatics over Banefire, which can be tutor'd up with Muddle the Mixture while remaining hard to counter. What do you guys think?
For blue aggro and CoCo decks, I think Mindshrieker would work. It gives you a mill wincon and an aggro route. Your combo would then be 3 creatures that CoCo could hit.
Also, Grand Architect gives it +1/+1.
That's a pretty interesting idea. Mindshrieker could replace either Azure Mage or Pyromatics in my list.
I like my version better, though, since Azure Mage is a lot less likely to get removed than Mindshrieker. Still, you have a valid idea, and it's worth considering.
Yep, fair enough. Both work and it comes down to some subtle things.
Azure Mage
Pros:
- Draws into uncounterable wincon
- Unsuspecting
Cons:
- Expensive activation cost without inf mana
- Needs dedicated slot(s) for wincon
Mindshrieker
- Evasion, Pump-able body for aggro
- Can disrupt opponent's scrying
Cons:
- Mill wincon possibly slow if they play GY shuffling Eldrazis. (You'll have to keep milling them until their Eldrazis ends up being the last cards)
- Not instant speed win
I would put red sources so you can cast pyromatics without infinite mana. A few fetches and Steam Vents would do.
You'll want to increase your creature count too. CoCo works best when you're in the 27+ creature range.
The thing is, I'm not trying to get value off of Coco. I'm just trying to search for specific cards with it.
I'm trying to make a budget version of the UG list, but the red splash is definitely worth testing in non-budget lists. It opens up Lightning Bolt as a removal spell, and Counterflux as a sideboard option. I like it.
I just realized that, without infinite mana, Pyromatics doesn't really do anything. If I have a single red source, I can deal 1 damage to target creature or player for 1R, which is horrendously inefficient. I need to be able to pay the replicate cost multiple times for it to become useful.
I was looking back at Torpf's list and DIME (link on first page) and I like that they run Skill Borrower. Without deck manipulation, it's such a bad card. But, our almost mono U mana base is flexible. This lets us get away with tons of deck manipulation lands.
Sideboard is WIP. It will likely have some Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull, an additional Cryptic Command and other cards that help the grindy matchups. With infinite mana, it could be nice to have 2-3 Eternal Witness so that you can go infinite with Cryptic Command bounce EWit + Draw a la Eternal Command.
Manabase might need a few more green sources, but otherwise digs for combo well enough. Will also see if I can somehow jam 1-2 Gavony Townships in the main.
I have taken this deck in a different direction. After much testing (6-7 leagues on MTGO) and several revisions, I am confident that this build is solid.
What this deck has always lacked is an alternate win condition. If the deck didn't pull off it's three-card combo (Architect + Pala + Some Way to Win) then it died in the water. Without the combo, extra Architects and Pili-Palas are useless 1/3s and 1/1s that don't race Modern's big creatures like Tarmogoyfs.
After testing for a long time with other versions of the deck, I realized that I was going hellbent in the large majority of games. Removal + discard caused me to use my resources fast. Then it hit me - Ensnaring Bridge could be the alternate win con for this deck. While it doesn't win the game in and of itself, it stops your opponent from winning until you can. With Pili-Pala and Architect already being 1 power creatures, ways to make them stronger post declare attackers (i.e. Exalted) could be put to abuse with the card. Bridge also works with the decks best win condition - Mindshrieker. As a 1/1 it can mill the entire opponent library the turn it comes down. It can also attack as a 1/1 and then pump to be very large, thus getting around the bridge. It can also be used just to mill even if you don't have the combo + a bridge. Not to mention that you can use Architect and other blue creatures to help play Bridges.
That said, the color it made sense most to pair with is not black, but green. Green also gives us access to another card I haven't seen much of in this thread - Chord of Calling. It's instant-speed put a creature onto the battlefield, which is exactly what this deck needs. This allows you to find Pili-Palas on opponent's end steps and then drop Architect on your turn. In order to fuel Chord, we end up choosing a lot of mana dorks, which is fine anyways because that gives us Noble Hierarch, which gives us exalted triggers. Mana dorks also help us empty our hand quickly for Bridge.
Spellskite seems like an obvious choice to protect our creatures from removal - it can also be played off of Architect. Perhaps the most interesting card in the list is the Devil's Play. This is for situations where we cannot mill the opponent because they have something like Eldrazi in their deck that shuffles their graveyard into their library. The idea is that you mill yourself with Mindshrieker until you find the Devil's play and then cast it for it's flashback cost. Remember that Pili-Pala generates any color of mana. Also consider that the vast majority of Eldrazi decks do not have counterspells.
I'm not 100% sure on the sideboard, but I am sure on the enchantment/artifact removal and Kiras. Stony Silence and Leyline of Sanctity are the bees knees against this deck and you absolutely want a way to destroy them that you can tutor up. You can transmute Muddle for Back to Nature and you can chord for Sage. If your opponent is playing white you MUST sideboard in the Sages and Back to Nature.
The Kiras are awesome against removal heavy decks and the Leylines help you against discard and burn decks, which fall on the unfavorable side of your matchups. Spell pierce is good against control and certain combo decks, and Dismember is good against decks that bring in creature hate such as Meddling Mage, Thalia, or Tidehollow Sculler.
Your better matchups are:
Boggles, the new black Eldrazi decks, Tokens, Scapeshift, Kiki-Chord
-These decks are either too slow or not disruptive enough to stop you. You either combo out before they do or grind them out with Bridge.
Your even matchups are:
Tron, U/R tempo decks, U/W control
-These decks are sometimes fast enough or disruptive enough to beat you
Your worst matchups are:
Grixis Control, Esper Control, Jund, Junk, Burn
-These decks have a lot of removal and discard spells, or like Burn they kill too quickly
The standard deviation is not super high though. You can win the worst matchups and you can lose the better ones depending on individual deck variance.
Overall, I feel like this deck can be competitive, especially in a new Twin-less Modern.
Oh, wow. Nice results! I've been on comp mtg hiatus for over a year now, but maybe with the meta shake-up it's time for a comeback. This thread was the last thing that peeked my interest. And like you were saying, the combo can't be that far off of a place in developing comp. Just comparing the combo to Meliera:
3 pieces
6 vs 7 total cmc (5 cmc if you use architect to play pili)
infinite scry/life vs infinite mana/mill
2 colors vs mono color
no summoning sickness vs no GY interaction
Yep, I found racing goyfs, mid-range Eldrazis and other big creatures a huge problem as well. I remember trying to beatdown with Pili/Mindshrieker against Jund. NOT fun times. I think your Ensnaring Bridge is solid tech. I'll have to give it some playtesting. It could be the missing piece.
It's interesting to see the deck take a different route versus the grindy matchups. My last posted list went the value village route with Cryptic, E Wits (nice alternate combo with inf mana) and CoCo to fight the attrition.
Do you have room for Pendelhaven in your list? Also, could Devil's Play be SB instead? I don't know the current mtgo meta breakdown like you do, but how prevalent are Tron/Bx Eldrazi right now? When milling on paper, you can shortcut it saying that I will repeatedly mill you until your Eldrazi end up the the last card(s) of the library. Too bad that can't be done in mtgo for time reasons. In one of my earlier lists I cut Bring to Light for being too expensive, but then I wasn't playing bridge. Everything else looks awesome!
I'll post my thoughts/comments on the matchups and SB when I get the time.
Pendelhaven is an interesting idea. I might give that a go. One thing I would like to try is Dryad Arbor. It seems silly, but I run up against occasions more often than not where I want to chord for 0 for a land.
You definitely want the Devil's Play in the main. In fact, it is your preferred method of killing. If you just mill them then they get an untap and upkeep step before they lose. Certain decks (burn) can use the upkeep step to win. Plus there are plenty of Emrakruls still floating around between Tron, Through the Breach, Mono-Green Devotion, etc. If nothing else, you can cast the Devil's Play as a removal spell - you have 10 red sources including the three fetches, the stomping grounds, and the Birds. Then it goes into the graveyard where it can be used for the win.
With some further testing, I ended up cutting Bring to Light. It's too slow and it doesn't get artifacts. In testing I found myself either going off with ease or desperate for a Bridge. I felt that replacing Bring to Light with Drift of Phantasms to be a good idea. Truth is, the list I posted above finds Pili-Pala way easier than Architect, and things that can search for 3CMC can also search for Bridge. Along those lines, I'm going to try replacing one Muddle with a second Drift of Phantasms as well.
I think the sideboard that I posted above is wrong, and further testing has provided more information about matchups. First, Tron is a worse matchup than I thought it was. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are bad news. Second, I'm finding a reasonable level of victory against decks with fairly high amounts of removal, showing the resistance of this deck against removal spells. That said, I find that I lose when I get out-tempo'ed by a bunch of Remands.
So for the sideboard options, I'm fairly confident in the Leylines, Kiras, at least 1 Reclamation Sage, and Back to Nature. Kira continues to be outstanding and am considering a third.
I'm confident that there should be a 1cmc counterspell, and am leaning towards Dispel instead of Spell Pierce. This is critical for beating the heavy removal/remand decks. Problem with spell pierce is that they get to 4 mana and can pay for Pierce plus have 2 removal spells up. That leaves the dismembers, which I'm not very confident about. I'm not sure this deck cares about creature hate, but I believe 1 is probably correct.
Another card I've tried is Spreading Seas, with mixed effect. It does seem to slot well against matchups I find difficult (Tron, Junk and Jund), by reducing their ability to play spells. Yet it just doesn't feel like what you want to be doing. This deck really can't afford a card like Fulminator Mage (and really doesn't want one). So, I'm at a bit of a loss as to the best approach to these matchups.
Collected Company would also not be necessary in the Bitterblossom scenario. You could then do the typical black control elements (targeted discard and removal (Shriekmaw?)) Or some blue based digging and a dash of countermagic.
Still, kind of hard to argue with "haven't lost a game yet." I'm definitely liking Shackles, though. That just seems too fun not to sleeve it up at some point.
*Edit* Of course, the entire concept above just turned your beatdown deck into a control deck, which is probably not what you're after. Being able to club the opponent to death if they stumble is nice.
I like Bitterblossom here. But i'm wondering if we're going for one of each piece if it's the right combo to run? I guess it's cheaper (mana wise) than the usual suspects Kiki and Feeder/Angel. Hmm that might actually be the direction to go. Especially since CoCo hasn't performed in the deck so far and I can still run the Shackles which has been one of the main reasons I've won a lot of the games.
EDIT: Emmy might actually be the best win con here, since it shuffles the Pili and Acrhitect back in if they get killed.
Emmy is a clever option for a win condition.
If I were to go forward with the RUG list I think I might try cutting CoCo for Domri Rade, especially since his fight ability seems good with Shackles and Hangarback.
1 Spellskite
1 Grand Architect
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Garruk Relentless
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Bitterblossom
4 Evolutionary Leap
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Batterskull
Notice that a flipped Garruk works as a pseudo Evolutionary Leap as well.
I'm not sure that Necrotic Ooze works, since it has to be blue to tap for mana.
EDIT: and Vedalken Shackles somewhere in the 60, if the mana base can support it.
4 Grand Architect
3 Pili-Pala
4 Fatestitcher
2 Unbender Tine
Combo Pieces
4 Mesmeric Orb
2 Narcomoeba
1 Blasting Station
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Skill Borrower
2 Spellskite
1 Batterskull
1 Golem Artisan
1 Unburial Rites
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
2 Courier's Capsule
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Breeding Pool
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Hinterland Harbor
2 Academy Ruins
4 Island
Some things the deck can do:
- Grand Architect + Pili-Pala making infinite mana, then hardcast Emrakul. If he's in your deck then you can use Courier's Capsule (or Skill Borrower) to draw then cast him.
- Once you have the Grand Architect + Pili-Pala + Mesmeric Orb (or some combination of Fatestitcher or Unbender Tine) you can reanimate Skill Borrower with Unburial Rites and then flip your deck to put Narcomoeba in play. Then you flip to Blasting Station and sac the Narcombea. Flip to Emrakul and repeat the process till they're dead.
- With infinite mana you can use Golem Artisan to make a infinite P/T Flying + Trample + Haste creature and one shot them.
- The opponent can't disrupt your flipping combo since Grand Architect + Pili-Pala is a mana ability. It will always be untapped, so if they put something on the stack you can reset the gamestate to before they casted the spell, except it will be on the stack now, and then combo out at normal. Therefor the combo is faster than instant speed.
- With Fatestitcher + Unbender Tine + Skill Borrower you can still get mana by flipping to a Grand Architect then a Pili-Pala, this means you always have access to the infinite mana combo.
- Skill Borrower can counter removal spells by using Spellskite to redirect it then Batterskull to bounce back to your hand. Then you can just recast it if you have infinite mana (which you always have!)
- Basically if it's in your deck you have access to it and can win however you want. There are a ton more combos, but these are a couple of the main things that come up.
Some things I was thinking of to improve it would be going esentally 5C like Affinity does. I could use Darksteel Citadel, Glimmervoid, and Mox Opal for acceleration. Then I'd have access to Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting to discard combo cards like Golem Artisan or Unburial Rites that I don't need till later. It could also help make a slightly more consistent mana base and allow for more powerful cards.
In short, the deck is removal proof. No it does not violate slow play rules. Yes it requires a lot of combo pieces so there is a lot of room for disruption before we assemble the combo.
How can it be improved?
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
It's pretty easy to disrupt since there are several moving pieces, and a single Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Faerie Macabre/Grafdigger's Cage really messes up/stops the combo even if you do get everything together.
Seems like the deck would be much better served by running more interaction and tutors with just one or two of the win conditions/combos.
Death and Taxes Videos
Traproot Graphics
Modern:
Fateseal Control | Current Version on TappedOut
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I'm still a little foggy on how the deck is "removal proof." If you're referring to the fact that mana abilities can't be responded to, I certainly get that. Or that once you've got enough pieces of the various combos out, you can flip to an answer in response to removal. I get that, too. But as you noted, getting to said point seems to be the real trick, no? While you're building up to your combo, the deck isn't removal proof. Or am I missing something?
Ways to improve any version of the deck probably revolve around getting faster, more resilient, or more interactive in some way.
In creature heavy versions, Aether Vial could provide that EoT surprise Pili-Pala when an opponent can't respond. Works well with Myr Superion, too, for versions running it. Other ways to flash guys in that are on-color include Shimmer Myr or Leyline of Anticipation.
Haste is a possibility, too. If Pili-Pala resolves and immediately has haste for some reason, you'll have your infinite mana straight-off with no way for the opponent to respond. There's the classic, Fervor, of course. Or Hammer of Purphoros, but that double red looks rough. A third 3 mana option would be Temur Ascendancy, and that could jive with decks playing fatter dudes for the card draw.
At four mana, and probably too slow to matter, we have Sarkhan Vol*Edit* Nevermind...timestamps or something. Lightning Mauler could work in a more beatdown oriented approach, I suppose, but the fact that it triggers and thus gives the opponent a chance to respond kind of defeats the purpose as far as the Pili-Pala combo is concerned.Whip of Erebos could do the haste thing for the Mesmeric Orb deck, as well as providing some added combo redundancy in general and shoring up some aggressive match-ups.
@Badabingbadabum,
Probably cut back on some removal to make room for your Shackles, since it kind of doubles as (slow) removal?
While you are assembling the combo you have things like Spellskite to protect your creatures. The creature combo pieces can be recurred from the graveyard so getting them back isn't the biggest problem in the world.
For haste on the Pili-Pala there is a possibility of using the newly spoiled Forerunner of Slaughter to give it haste in tandem with Skill Borrower but you'd need some way of flipping it to the top of your deck.... which you need the Pili-Pala for so it might not be that viable.
Whip is nice, but it costs a lot to use. Maybe something cheaper like Postmortem Lunge will fit better.
I think an updated list could look like:
4 Grand Architect
4 Pili-Pala
4 Fatestitcher
2 Unbender Tine
Combo Pieces
4 Mesmeric Orb
2 Narcomoeba
1 Blasting Station
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Skill Borrower
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour/Ancient Stirrings/Faithless Looting
Utility
2 Spellskite
1 Batterskull/Golem Artisan
1 Unburial Rites
1 Courier's Capsule/Welding Jar
4 Mox Opal
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Glimmervoid
1 Academy Ruins
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
I think things like Ancient Stirrings are necessary for the consistency of the deck. The multicolour landbase allows us to run all the colours we want so ti shouldn't be too much of a problem. The Thought Scour can probably be taken out as Mesmeric Orb does that on it's own. I want to keep in the Fatestitcher as they are an untap combo on their own, have haste, and can be discard fodder. They might just be too clunky though which could lead to playing Voltaic Construct + Palladium Myr as they ramp on their own but are more fragile. This is way less likely to happen, but it is still an option.
Perhaps redundancy and digging for the combo is the way to go. Ditching some of the more clunky combo pieces (looking at you Unbender Tine) would create room for them, but then it feels like all the eggs are in one basket kind of thing.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Modern:
DredgeVine
EDH:
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Anima
Standard:
Could also add a few one-ofs to make the deck more "toolbox."
4x Pili-Pala
4x Grand Architect
4x Azure Mage
Combo Searchers
4x Muddle the Mixture
4x Drift of Phantasms
4x Collected Company
Kill Cards
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Pyromatics
2x Into the Roil
4x Swan Song
Card Filtering
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
Lands
4x Breeding Pool
4x Temple of Mystery
4x Yavimaya Coast
8x Island
4x Apostle's Blessing
2x Spell Pierce
3x Vapor Snag
3x Gigadrowse
3x Nature's Claim
Also, Grand Architect gives it +1/+1.
I like my version better, though, since Azure Mage is a lot less likely to get removed than Mindshrieker. Still, you have a valid idea, and it's worth considering.
Azure Mage
Pros:
- Draws into uncounterable wincon
- Unsuspecting
Cons:
- Expensive activation cost without inf mana
- Needs dedicated slot(s) for wincon
Mindshrieker
- Evasion, Pump-able body for aggro
- Can disrupt opponent's scrying
Cons:
- Mill wincon possibly slow if they play GY shuffling Eldrazis. (You'll have to keep milling them until their Eldrazis ends up being the last cards)
- Not instant speed win
I would put red sources so you can cast pyromatics without infinite mana. A few fetches and Steam Vents would do.
You'll want to increase your creature count too. CoCo works best when you're in the 27+ creature range.
I'm trying to make a budget version of the UG list, but the red splash is definitely worth testing in non-budget lists. It opens up Lightning Bolt as a removal spell, and Counterflux as a sideboard option. I like it.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/reconstructed/aggro-control-combo-modern-style-2015-11-16
I was looking back at Torpf's list and DIME (link on first page) and I like that they run Skill Borrower. Without deck manipulation, it's such a bad card. But, our almost mono U mana base is flexible. This lets us get away with tons of deck manipulation lands.
Why Skill Borrower?
- All 3 combo pieces are activated abilities
- Hit by Collected Company
- If Skill Borrower is in play, playing Collected Company reveals a new card
- Halimar Depths + a fetchland gives 4 Skill Borrower peeks (it also helps find our combo pieces)
- Mindshrieker / Azure Mage finisher also manipulates our library
- Grand Architect ability helps pay for Skill Borrower
- Access to cheap peek: Serum Vision and Telling Time
4 Halimar Depths
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Temple of Mystery
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Grand Architect
4 Mindshrieker
4 Pili-Pala
4 Skill Borrower
4 Serum Vision
Instant
4 Collected Company
With the possibility of infinite mana Lumbering Falls, Tolaria West and Blighted Cataract could also be played.
Now I'm left trying to figure out a land base to make this super consistent...
Sideboard is WIP. It will likely have some Wurmcoil Engine or Batterskull, an additional Cryptic Command and other cards that help the grindy matchups. With infinite mana, it could be nice to have 2-3 Eternal Witness so that you can go infinite with Cryptic Command bounce EWit + Draw a la Eternal Command.
Manabase might need a few more green sources, but otherwise digs for combo well enough. Will also see if I can somehow jam 1-2 Gavony Townships in the main.
1x Blighted Cataract
2x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Halimar Depths
3x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Pendelhaven
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Temple of Mystery
1x Eternal Witness
4x Grand Architect
4x Mindshrieker
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Pili-Pala
3x Skill Borrower
2x Spellskite
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
2x Cryptic Command
3x Remand
Sorcery
4x Serum Visions
Viscera seer doesn't seem to have any synergy; there aren't any re-occurring creatures you can sac.
What this deck has always lacked is an alternate win condition. If the deck didn't pull off it's three-card combo (Architect + Pala + Some Way to Win) then it died in the water. Without the combo, extra Architects and Pili-Palas are useless 1/3s and 1/1s that don't race Modern's big creatures like Tarmogoyfs.
After testing for a long time with other versions of the deck, I realized that I was going hellbent in the large majority of games. Removal + discard caused me to use my resources fast. Then it hit me - Ensnaring Bridge could be the alternate win con for this deck. While it doesn't win the game in and of itself, it stops your opponent from winning until you can. With Pili-Pala and Architect already being 1 power creatures, ways to make them stronger post declare attackers (i.e. Exalted) could be put to abuse with the card. Bridge also works with the decks best win condition - Mindshrieker. As a 1/1 it can mill the entire opponent library the turn it comes down. It can also attack as a 1/1 and then pump to be very large, thus getting around the bridge. It can also be used just to mill even if you don't have the combo + a bridge. Not to mention that you can use Architect and other blue creatures to help play Bridges.
That said, the color it made sense most to pair with is not black, but green. Green also gives us access to another card I haven't seen much of in this thread - Chord of Calling. It's instant-speed put a creature onto the battlefield, which is exactly what this deck needs. This allows you to find Pili-Palas on opponent's end steps and then drop Architect on your turn. In order to fuel Chord, we end up choosing a lot of mana dorks, which is fine anyways because that gives us Noble Hierarch, which gives us exalted triggers. Mana dorks also help us empty our hand quickly for Bridge.
4 Grand Architect
4 Pili-Pala
3 Mindshrieker
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Spellskite
[cards]
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chord of Calling
1 Bring to Light
1 Devil's Play
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Flooded Grove
4 Forest
1 Island
3 Dismember
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Spell Pierce
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Back to Nature
2 Reclamation Sage
Spellskite seems like an obvious choice to protect our creatures from removal - it can also be played off of Architect. Perhaps the most interesting card in the list is the Devil's Play. This is for situations where we cannot mill the opponent because they have something like Eldrazi in their deck that shuffles their graveyard into their library. The idea is that you mill yourself with Mindshrieker until you find the Devil's play and then cast it for it's flashback cost. Remember that Pili-Pala generates any color of mana. Also consider that the vast majority of Eldrazi decks do not have counterspells.
I'm not 100% sure on the sideboard, but I am sure on the enchantment/artifact removal and Kiras. Stony Silence and Leyline of Sanctity are the bees knees against this deck and you absolutely want a way to destroy them that you can tutor up. You can transmute Muddle for Back to Nature and you can chord for Sage. If your opponent is playing white you MUST sideboard in the Sages and Back to Nature.
The Kiras are awesome against removal heavy decks and the Leylines help you against discard and burn decks, which fall on the unfavorable side of your matchups. Spell pierce is good against control and certain combo decks, and Dismember is good against decks that bring in creature hate such as Meddling Mage, Thalia, or Tidehollow Sculler.
Your better matchups are:
Boggles, the new black Eldrazi decks, Tokens, Scapeshift, Kiki-Chord
-These decks are either too slow or not disruptive enough to stop you. You either combo out before they do or grind them out with Bridge.
Your even matchups are:
Tron, U/R tempo decks, U/W control
-These decks are sometimes fast enough or disruptive enough to beat you
Your worst matchups are:
Grixis Control, Esper Control, Jund, Junk, Burn
-These decks have a lot of removal and discard spells, or like Burn they kill too quickly
The standard deviation is not super high though. You can win the worst matchups and you can lose the better ones depending on individual deck variance.
Overall, I feel like this deck can be competitive, especially in a new Twin-less Modern.
Yep, I found racing goyfs, mid-range Eldrazis and other big creatures a huge problem as well. I remember trying to beatdown with Pili/Mindshrieker against Jund. NOT fun times. I think your Ensnaring Bridge is solid tech. I'll have to give it some playtesting. It could be the missing piece.
It's interesting to see the deck take a different route versus the grindy matchups. My last posted list went the value village route with Cryptic, E Wits (nice alternate combo with inf mana) and CoCo to fight the attrition.
Do you have room for Pendelhaven in your list? Also, could Devil's Play be SB instead? I don't know the current mtgo meta breakdown like you do, but how prevalent are Tron/Bx Eldrazi right now? When milling on paper, you can shortcut it saying that I will repeatedly mill you until your Eldrazi end up the the last card(s) of the library. Too bad that can't be done in mtgo for time reasons. In one of my earlier lists I cut Bring to Light for being too expensive, but then I wasn't playing bridge. Everything else looks awesome!
I'll post my thoughts/comments on the matchups and SB when I get the time.
You definitely want the Devil's Play in the main. In fact, it is your preferred method of killing. If you just mill them then they get an untap and upkeep step before they lose. Certain decks (burn) can use the upkeep step to win. Plus there are plenty of Emrakruls still floating around between Tron, Through the Breach, Mono-Green Devotion, etc. If nothing else, you can cast the Devil's Play as a removal spell - you have 10 red sources including the three fetches, the stomping grounds, and the Birds. Then it goes into the graveyard where it can be used for the win.
With some further testing, I ended up cutting Bring to Light. It's too slow and it doesn't get artifacts. In testing I found myself either going off with ease or desperate for a Bridge. I felt that replacing Bring to Light with Drift of Phantasms to be a good idea. Truth is, the list I posted above finds Pili-Pala way easier than Architect, and things that can search for 3CMC can also search for Bridge. Along those lines, I'm going to try replacing one Muddle with a second Drift of Phantasms as well.
I think the sideboard that I posted above is wrong, and further testing has provided more information about matchups. First, Tron is a worse matchup than I thought it was. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are bad news. Second, I'm finding a reasonable level of victory against decks with fairly high amounts of removal, showing the resistance of this deck against removal spells. That said, I find that I lose when I get out-tempo'ed by a bunch of Remands.
So for the sideboard options, I'm fairly confident in the Leylines, Kiras, at least 1 Reclamation Sage, and Back to Nature. Kira continues to be outstanding and am considering a third.
I'm confident that there should be a 1cmc counterspell, and am leaning towards Dispel instead of Spell Pierce. This is critical for beating the heavy removal/remand decks. Problem with spell pierce is that they get to 4 mana and can pay for Pierce plus have 2 removal spells up. That leaves the dismembers, which I'm not very confident about. I'm not sure this deck cares about creature hate, but I believe 1 is probably correct.
Another card I've tried is Spreading Seas, with mixed effect. It does seem to slot well against matchups I find difficult (Tron, Junk and Jund), by reducing their ability to play spells. Yet it just doesn't feel like what you want to be doing. This deck really can't afford a card like Fulminator Mage (and really doesn't want one). So, I'm at a bit of a loss as to the best approach to these matchups.
This is my current build:
4 Grand Architect
4 Pili-Pala
3 Mindshrieker
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Spellskite
[cards]
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Muddle the Mixture
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Chord of Calling
2 Drift of Phantasms
1 Devil's Play
4 Hinterland Harbor
4 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Flooded Grove
4 Forest
1 Island
1 Dismember
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Dispel
3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Back to Nature
2 Reclamation Sage
I'll let you know how it goes. 4-1 in 2 leagues so far and 3-2 in a bunch of others, hoping to crack 5-0.