MTG Salvation

Thoughts on Karn Liberated?

well, say one word about heartless, and come back the next day to 2 extra pages?
Awesome.

The problem is getting getting the taxing effects right out of the gates, so you slow the game down on them in time. We don't have tombs =< Everflowing chalice would be cool if it didn't take so much to get started. Having 2 mana on turn 1 for thorn or sculptor or heartless or CotV or thalia might be workable at least with some possibilities like SSG. I'm not too sure on the route, but keeping it all creatures could be the way to go to maximize 4 heartless and 4 sculptor MD.

Karn will awesome when i can figure out how to cast him before dying...

And who will this deck hit? Creature decks are going to love us, combo is gonna race us and try and bounce stuff, and control will cherrypick the golem out, but can't stop us from EVER having a taxing effect. Oddly, even the creature suite we have now has ways of handling delver, which is hilarious.

Maybe bottled cloister + ensnaring bridge in the board to help with aggro?


edit- ORRRRR the other way suggested by rising star. Have a tight tax n break em packaged posted up in a tempo shell leaning on blue for maybe pierce, snare, remand, etc and keep the board clear of anything golem can't handle, and keep your tax effects from getting pathed long enough to swing in with manlands and golem(s)/metamorphs. Could work... there's the obvious problem of having the tax effects make your counters hurt just as much as it hurts their paths/snags/etc.

Yep, still stumped on the mana issue.

In fact, I think this'll end up somewhere between Tezzerator and D&T

i say BW Heartless Taxes...

• Heartless Summoning
  
• Glorious Anthem
  
• Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
  
• Lodestone Golem
  
• Thorn of Amethyst
  
• Ethersworn Cannonist

The anthems counter the heartless drawback, while still giving you the benefit. Thalia taxes as does thorn, Lodestone taxes your opponent more as you're alittle more artifacty.

I personally think (can't speak for OP/deck daddy Rising Star) want blue to stay in. I really like Phyrexian Metamorph here, and think Tezzeret the Seeker can do work.

Edit: Forgot about Defense Grid. Seems decent enough since we won't be doing much on our opponent's turn.

So i threw something together really quick on cockatrice, and played it for laughs, but it actually surprised me:



I definitely have issue with the mana still, but turn 1 heartless, turn 2 golem really is good.... and so is turn 1 thorn turn 2 sculptor, turn 3 architect + golem.

Quote from Blitz Reloaded

So i threw something together really quick on cockatrice, and played it for laughs, but it actually surprised me:

Degduar Marte's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Land 3 Island 2 Plains 2 Swamp 1 Watery Grave 1 Hallowed Fountain 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Mishra's Factory 2 Cascade Bluffs 1 Glacial Fortress 1 Drowned Catacomb 1 Celestial Colonnade	Tax n Beats 4 Lodestone Golem 4 Thorn of Amethyst 3 Ethersworn Canonist 2 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV 2 Grand Architect Accel 4 Heartless Summoning 4 Simian Spirit Guide 3 Mox Opal 4 Springleaf Drum 4 Etherium Sculptor	Utility 3 Phyrexian Metamorph 2 Tezzeret the Seeker 1 Ensnaring Bridge

I definitely have issue with the mana still, but turn 1 heartless, turn 2 golem really is good.... and so is turn 1 thorn turn 2 sculptor, turn 3 architect + golem.

This looks really solid. This is what I'll sleeve up and test with this weekend. The only problem is that I suck when it comes to fixing mana... haha so I'll need some help on that end

The list i put together revolves around having something to do early enough to be relevent with the taxing effects, then trying to beat face on top of it while the opponent struggles for enough mana to cast even his low cost things.

If you take it too far towards tezz, you'll end up with tezzerator and end up having to drop golem and friends to make that work. Upping the land control will eventually lead you to scale back your taxing effects to be more efficient ones, which leads to D&T. It's hilariously caught in the middle, but it seems to work.

Tezz and bridge are just insurance against aggro, but could probably go in the side with an anti-aggro package along with bottled cloister, tectonic edge, crucible, and some silver bullets + an extra tezz (transformational?).

As for the deck itself as posted, you reaallly want heartless or sculptor in your opening grip, but it's perfectly fine to just cast thorn 1 and thorn 2 on turn 2 and turn 3, and then just golem. Golem is pretty huge, and that amount of tax can make it difficult for your opponent to deal with him.

The other idea i had was to go full aggro with thalia, drop the heartless, populate the manabase with LD + manlands, and add... vial. Dunno how that would work though.

PS -
remember: ssg + cascade bluffs = UU, architect can sometimes let you drop your whole darn hand (so can sculptor + metamorphs), Tezz can tutor up bridge when you run out of stuff, factories can turn on to get metalcraft so opal gets you colored mana, and you can never have enough golem. Drop your hand and beat.

And like I said, this was something I just threw together, it's far from tuned. There are synergy issues with arbiter, even though he provides a more one sided taxing effect, I'm less sure about him the more I test. Synergy issues with thorn as well. Basically, anything not both a creature and an artifact are kinda clunky in this build (though thorn just feels... easy to cast, and you get a great effect out of him when coupled with golem, he doesn't do much of anything to aggro decks at all).

I'm surprised at the lack of Faithless Looting, Trash for Treasure, and Wurmcoil Engine. Maybe that is too far from the path your guys are wanting to go, though. I'll have a brew and come back sometime

Quote from aka_Dredge

I'm surprised at the lack of Faithless Looting, Trash for Treasure, and Wurmcoil Engine. Maybe that is too far from the path your guys are wanting to go, though. I'll have a brew and come back sometime

Quote from ldksparda

How about going even more red and use everflowing chalice, coldsteel heart, seething song, simian spirit guide and boom//bust?

now that I think of it: turn 1 heartless summoning into turn 2 lodestone golemor moltensteel dragon seems interesting.

I don't think red is the direction we're looking to go into. I especially don't like Faithless Looting in a deck where I can't recur anything I'm pitching with it.

Quote from Rising Star

Actually, with Academy Ruins...you can.

Good point. I should probably pay more attention hahaha

This seems REALLY powerful to me. I'ma stay posted. If you're going white, maybe some more D&T pieces like Leonin Arbiter. Also Hokori, Dust Drinker for WW sounds kinda cool.

Quote from Argetlam

This seems REALLY powerful to me. I'ma stay posted. If you're going white, maybe some more D&T pieces like Leonin Arbiter. Also Hokori, Dust Drinker for WW sounds kinda cool.

Hokori, Dust Drinker has been proving to be a real pain for my opponent with Heartless out. With the amount of Tax effects I'm running, as well as Lodestone Golems and Phyrexian Metamorphs and such, there really isn't much my opponent can do.

How about Master Transmuter? It could effectively be this deck's Metalworker, and can actually protect many of the deck's threats. Also works perfectly with token-makers like Thopter Foundry and Wurmcoil Engine. I think I remember a very similar thread in this forum.

Quote from .Ix

How about Master Transmuter? It could effectively be this deck's Metalworker, and can actually protect many of the deck's threats. Also works perfectly with token-makers like Thopter Foundry and Wurmcoil Engine. I think I remember a very similar thread in this forum.

That's one of the cards I've been looking for to test, but couldn't remember the name of. Thank you!

Faithless Looting could also combine with Trash for Treasure for late game Wormcoil reanimator fun...but the stax version appears to be stronger when going W(ub) Lodestone Pacemaker.

Quote from ldksparda

What about using Sundering Titan? Seems better to the overall feel of the deck rather than wurmcoil.

This seems pretty nutty. I'll try it out.

^ It's on the radar for finishers, but it'd be rather lackluster against mono-colored decks, which is the usual complaint. I'd still take Karn over him, as including both seems a little top heavy, and Karn does a better job at LD and hand disruption in far less narrow way. I've been messing with a tax heavy deck that just defaults to a tezz toolbox for ensnaring bridge and closing out the game with LD + crucible after casting everything in your hand. Means you can run 1of 3sphere/chalice/cage/etc. And with master transmuter, you can bounce things to your hand (like bridge) to use the attack step or re-cast chalice at the appropriate setting. Given, if they start taking out our creatures with path and friends, we are going to run into trouble regardless. Just some ideas.

What about Semblance Anvil? You could conceivably run nothing but creatures with Heartless and Anvil to ensure you get the most value. Torpor Orb and Hunted creatures seems awfully jank.

Merged several Heartless Summoning Decks. Please use Search

Quote from the_cardfather

Merged several Heartless Summoning Decks. Please use Search

Thanks, though reading this thread is a tad confusing after the merge. I have no idea why people seem ignorant of the search function- or perhaps it never occurs to them that someone else had the idea before them. Back to business...

So, if you go back and read the new first post, I was one of those that was working on the BG fecudity style deck.
I stopped playing it because infinite combos are a pain in the tuchas (<-yidish), as you have to play out every iteration of the combo, but the merge inspired me to try again. After reading through the thread it donned on me that I might be able to get a little more consistency in my build with some red, so it is getting a serious revision.
Out:
x3 Soulspike

This card just never did it for me. Taking it out leaves me with 3 wincons: Falkenrath Noble, Bitter Ordeal, Perilous Myr, which is decent- though not satisfactory. I went ahead and trimmed them down a bit, making each slightly less consistent, but giving me room for accel (Simian Spirit Guide), and Dig (Faithless Looting). With SSG in I can afford to take out a couple Sakura-Tribe Elder too.


I went ahead and added in a single Grapeshot as a backup plan. I am clearly, however, torn on what Tutor I should add, or even if I will need it with Looting. Each has it's advantages and disadvantage:
Beseech the Queen: I do not have to have the card I want in hand, but it can be tough to cast and even if I have BBB it is still a little slow.
Infernal Tutor: Faster, but I it seems like it cannot get me out of a bind when I am seeing no combo pieces. This also could be great if I get in TD mode.
Shred Memory: Almost uncounterable, and it at 1BB it is slightly easier to cast than Queen, but it cannot grab Fecundity or Noble. It can also serve as utility when I don't need a tutor.
No Tutor: This opens up room for some removal/control that I am SORELY lacking in this deck.

I am really torn on this, so some opinions would be welcome. I own all three, so that is not an issue.

The Sideboard will get tweaked as well, but I am not having as much trouble with it.

Ya, I merged 4 threads and then realized one of them shouldn't have been merged so I had to pull it back out. I used the definition of combo very loosely. I'm most famililar with your style of deck vs the "throw down a bunch of effects" style that were in the other threads.

Quote from the_cardfather

Ya, I merged 4 threads and then realized one of them shouldn't have been merged so I had to pull it back out. I used the definition of combo very loosely. I'm most famililar with your style of deck vs the "throw down a bunch of effects" style that were in the other threads.

Not for nothin, but I was not trying to be critical...heck, reading about the others got my creative juices flowing.

Quote from idraleo

Why Falkenrath Noble over Blood Artist? You can transmute for it with Shred Memory too. BTW, your tutor couLd be Plunge Into Darkness, since you don't care to loose cratures from your board

Blood Artist dies with Heartless Summoning in play. Plunge is not really a tutor, and I have filtering via FL.

Quote from arneankann

Here are my decklist for this combo. No Sideboard.

DrWorm's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creature 3 Falkenrath Noble 4 Myr Retriever 2 Myr Superion 4 Selhoff Occultist 2 Wurmcoil Engine	Enchantment 4 Heartless Summoning Instant 2 Mana Leak 4 Remand 3 Smother Sorcery 4 Beseech the Queen 4 Diabolic Tutor 2 Infernal Tutor 2 Inquisition of Kozilek	Land 12 Swamp 4 Drowned Catacomb 4 Watery Grave

I'm having a lot of trouble against decks that discards my cards. Any thoughts?

I don't like occultist in this deck, as it has too little incremental effect on the deck. I run green, and so if I was facing discard I would probably run some grave retrieval, but you can run Noxious Revival. It puts you behind a bit, but it gets back any card type.

Hi, I found this thread and was wanting some advice for my heartless combo.

I haven't looked at all the pages but have you guys considered going esper for Idyllic Tutor and more sideboard options?