I would agree, more mana dorks fits your gameplan better than trying to rely on visions + goyf. Only 4 sorceries is not enough to reliably grow him but a turn 1 dork has always been a solid play and if you pick birds then you've got more flying blockers in there which is important against affinity. I would say that if you are keen on keeping tarmogoyf around then you should consider running more sorceries or you could try finding more spells that will get 4+ card types in the graveyard. Just running lots of card types isn't sufficient, they have to also reliably get into the graveyard to count.
Goyf was cut due to budget reasons, and also because I'm running 4-5 Manlands in the mana base. It would be useful for the effect sylvan advocate gives for my manlands and as well as its mid-late game relevance. Sun Titan is included as a 1-off against grindy games and the recursion of my creatures is giving a lot of value.
I'm not too keen with excess mana dorks as they sit around most of the time dying or doing nothing. I used to run 7-8 dorks for a T2 Geist of Clique (see my older lists), but in the end I think it's not really that important. It's a strong play, but if I were to rely my strategy on dorks, more often than not, the tempo play can easily be cut off. Hence, 4 dorks to aid in the mana acceleration, but not to the point of over-relying on them. LMK how this list fares.
What is your ideal line of play and how early can this deck win?
I can see Hierarch - Geist - Elspeth is 10 damage that wins by turn 4.
Cryptic Command also helps tap blockers to deal damage but Geist is your only early-game heavy hitter.
You've certainly got the toolbox for a strong late game but I'm not sure how well you will be able to make it there.
Have you considered trying to focus the late game and maybe run more counters?
The deck is dependent on the MU. If I have to be aggressive, my tool box can be used to ensure cards like Geist, V.Clique, Ooze and Sylvan Advocate gets the damage through. Maybe I'll refine the list after a chance to playtest them with regards how to improve early game, but good call to point it out.
I considered Wall of Omen but looking at the crazy price tag, I'm hoping I can find back my 3 copies that were lost somewhere. But if not in the meantime, a dumb idea would probably be getting my creatures to block as much as possible until I get into late game. Sun titan gives recursions to all my creatures, Ojutai's command can net 4 life and a creature back if needed. Removals gives a way to punch damage through or remove threats. Elspeth gives chump blockers or make anyone a flying threat. Jace AOT helps slows aggressive strategies just by a little bit and gives me a decent card advantage. Serum Visions can help in setting up my next turn play where necessary.
But, as said, it really depends on the MU and I really have to playtest the deck. The list was conceived on paper with a few discussions and suggestions here and there.
wow, no updates? Okay, I got 1 bit of update to my deck. I was flipping through my binder and saw the foil planeswalkers I have. I went online and did a bit of research and not much info was on this iteration of a Bant deck... except for these articles: Article 1 Article 2
I took the deck concept and I built another iteration of it. I don't favour magical Christmas 1-offs in modern (Doubling Season) so I decided to try the superfriends concept in a midrange/control shell with creature support, counterspells and a decent removal package.
This is a VERY different take on Bant midrange. This is a superfriends build in Bant colour that still emphasizes on utility and tempo. Just that this iteration is slightly more on the control end. If you resolve a t3 Geist of Saint traft or a planeswalker like Tamiyo or Gideon, you pretty much swing the game to your favour.
What do you guys think? I'm having fun with this deck at the moment. Let me know how to improve it and I apologise in advance if this deck doesn't belong to this primer. There is no home for Bant superfriends at the moment.
You could play oath of nissa here.
You could also consider splashing a fourth color (black seems best), because with oath of nissa and a shock or two, you greatly increase your options.
Playable walkers: jace beleren, jace AoT, New Jace, Ajani mentor of heroes, ashiok, elspeth knight errant, elspeth suns champion, garruk relentless, garruk wildspeaker, gideon jura, gideon ally of zendikar, either kiora, sorin lord of innistrad, tamiyo, vraska, karn, nissa voice of zendikar, worldwaker.
You could then play removal, snaps, wall of omens, etc, and just sit behind the walkers all game. The 3 mana tutor is also something to consider, because playing garruk wildspeaker/nissa worldwaker to untap lands you let you tutor and cast something in the same turn.
The deck is probably too slow, but maybe it'll work out.
I'm considering Oath of nissa. If I do, the deck line-up will change but I'm still concerned in terms of colour fixing, which most cases will be a bad thing since I'm already committing multiple colour symbol cards like cryptic etc.. I'll consider oath as a fixer, but not something to rely on to cast my planeswalkers. Also, note that I'm running 22 instant/sorceries. Oath don't really fix that. These are my concerns with Oath, but I'll try to slot them in anycase.
Not too sure what is with the list of walkers you mentioned. I alr have some of those in the deck... the others were cut because of the value of the ability or just basically not in the colour.
Yes, I alr mentioned I'm playing counterspells and removal package. Yes it's a slow deck. It is meant to be that way
Here is a deck idea I thought about which revolves around Eternal Witness+Eerie Interlude (the new Ghostway) and creatures with EtB abilities that can be flickered to grind out value.
Meddling Mage (or Phyrexian Revoker) also seems good here as it can be reset to different cards after blinking to wreck certain strategies (it might be a better idea to run it over Icatian Javelineers).
Another possible top-end for the deck can be Lavinia of the Tenth that can lock out the opponent or open up an alpha strike ootion.
So with the new Tamiyo being a thing, is there now a dedicated reason to play bant? Having a 4 mana built in win-condition seems pretty awesome, and it gives this deck some of the late game push that has been needed.
Tell you what, I'm certainly going to try. I've got a Bant CoCo deck that needs some dusting off. The question is, what is the best direction to go with Tamiyo? I have a feeling that she will be best in a nontraditional Bant shell, something that can better abuse her ultimate.
Tell you what, I'm certainly going to try. I've got a Bant CoCo deck that needs some dusting off. The question is, what is the best direction to go with Tamiyo? I have a feeling that she will be best in a nontraditional Bant shell, something that can better abuse her ultimate.
I'm looking at something like Bant tokens - GW tokens did incredibly well at GPLA - is the blue splash into bant colors the best type of place to try Tamiyo? You'd have no lack of targets for the +1 and such a shell should be great offensively AND defensively. I'm not sure, but if ever there was a card with raw power to make you take a second look at things I think it's this one.
18 lands seem not nearly enough, I would cut the mana dorks for more lands.
Also so many counterspells with no flash creatures, seems not great as it's not a tempo deck.
I'm also not sure how good is Tarmogoyf in this deck.
With Geist, Smiter and KotR I can see Stubborn Denial as the counterspell of choice. Honor of the Pure also seems like a good idea as it buffs everyone (if you replace Snapcaster and Goyf).
Why not bant tokens with worship? Basically, it seems to me that the first problem bant has it's that it has some really good cards, but it can only face properly midrange decks due to the green splash and the creature based deck. With the green splash you go hard on creatures, losing counters removals and so on; the differences between a UW control deck and a bant deck are preatty much these. You could start from the gw tokens that did well in gpla, and add worship as a combo killer ( scapeshift, ad nauseam ). Nissa, Gideon and new Tamyio are supporting the token strategy; then you could add worship, some removals like pte and detention sphere, and some Instant token generator like rise the alarm and secure the wastes, to be sure that worship is doing always the job. There aren't so many cards played in modern that actually can deal with planeswalkers and enchantments, so they are preatty annoying. Bant token walkers with Worship seems preatty strong to me
This sounds really wrong to me. How is worship even mildly effective against those decks? When they want to go off they just bounce your Worship or blow it up or wipe your board, or just win with lab maniac. I don't think those decks care about Worship even a little bit.
Private Mod Note
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
What is good about Loxodon Smiter that it can't be countered (Voice of Resurgence also helps deter counters)
or discarded and works great naturally with Stubborn Denial.
4x Geist seems a bit much as it's legendary.
Honor of the Pure helps turn on ferocious for Stubborn Denial and is also very good with Finks, Geist and Brimaz and their tokens and all the white creatures in general.
2x Breeding Pool
4x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
3x Lumbering Falls
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (3)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Sun Titan
4x Sylvan Advocate
2x Vendilion Clique
Instant (10)
2x Cryptic Command
2x Ojutai's Command
4x Path to Exile
2x Simic Charm
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
Enchantment (1)
1x Detention Sphere
1x Batterskull
2x Kataki, War's Wage
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rest in Peace
2x Spellskite
2x Supreme Verdict
Goyf was cut due to budget reasons, and also because I'm running 4-5 Manlands in the mana base. It would be useful for the effect sylvan advocate gives for my manlands and as well as its mid-late game relevance. Sun Titan is included as a 1-off against grindy games and the recursion of my creatures is giving a lot of value.
I'm not too keen with excess mana dorks as they sit around most of the time dying or doing nothing. I used to run 7-8 dorks for a T2 Geist of Clique (see my older lists), but in the end I think it's not really that important. It's a strong play, but if I were to rely my strategy on dorks, more often than not, the tempo play can easily be cut off. Hence, 4 dorks to aid in the mana acceleration, but not to the point of over-relying on them. LMK how this list fares.
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
I can see Hierarch - Geist - Elspeth is 10 damage that wins by turn 4.
Cryptic Command also helps tap blockers to deal damage but Geist is your only early-game heavy hitter.
You've certainly got the toolbox for a strong late game but I'm not sure how well you will be able to make it there.
Have you considered trying to focus the late game and maybe run more counters?
The deck is dependent on the MU. If I have to be aggressive, my tool box can be used to ensure cards like Geist, V.Clique, Ooze and Sylvan Advocate gets the damage through. Maybe I'll refine the list after a chance to playtest them with regards how to improve early game, but good call to point it out.
I considered Wall of Omen but looking at the crazy price tag, I'm hoping I can find back my 3 copies that were lost somewhere. But if not in the meantime, a dumb idea would probably be getting my creatures to block as much as possible until I get into late game. Sun titan gives recursions to all my creatures, Ojutai's command can net 4 life and a creature back if needed. Removals gives a way to punch damage through or remove threats. Elspeth gives chump blockers or make anyone a flying threat. Jace AOT helps slows aggressive strategies just by a little bit and gives me a decent card advantage. Serum Visions can help in setting up my next turn play where necessary.
But, as said, it really depends on the MU and I really have to playtest the deck. The list was conceived on paper with a few discussions and suggestions here and there.
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
Article 1
Article 2
I took the deck concept and I built another iteration of it. I don't favour magical Christmas 1-offs in modern (Doubling Season) so I decided to try the superfriends concept in a midrange/control shell with creature support, counterspells and a decent removal package.
2x Breeding Pool
1x Faerie Conclave
3x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
2x Lumbering Falls
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Temple Garden
3x Windswept Heath
2x Eternal Witness
2x Geist of Saint Traft
1x Snapcaster Mage
2x Cryptic Command
3x Fog
2x Immolating Glare
2x Mana Leak
4x Path to Exile
1x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
1x Sphinx's Revelation
Planeswalker (7)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Gideon Jura
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace Beleren
1x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Sorcery (6)
3x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
1x Celestial Purge
1x Dispel
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Negate
1x Pulse of Murasa
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Rest in Peace
2x Spellskite
2x Vendilion Clique
This is a VERY different take on Bant midrange. This is a superfriends build in Bant colour that still emphasizes on utility and tempo. Just that this iteration is slightly more on the control end. If you resolve a t3 Geist of Saint traft or a planeswalker like Tamiyo or Gideon, you pretty much swing the game to your favour.
What do you guys think? I'm having fun with this deck at the moment. Let me know how to improve it and I apologise in advance if this deck doesn't belong to this primer. There is no home for Bant superfriends at the moment.
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
You could also consider splashing a fourth color (black seems best), because with oath of nissa and a shock or two, you greatly increase your options.
Playable walkers: jace beleren, jace AoT, New Jace, Ajani mentor of heroes, ashiok, elspeth knight errant, elspeth suns champion, garruk relentless, garruk wildspeaker, gideon jura, gideon ally of zendikar, either kiora, sorin lord of innistrad, tamiyo, vraska, karn, nissa voice of zendikar, worldwaker.
You could then play removal, snaps, wall of omens, etc, and just sit behind the walkers all game. The 3 mana tutor is also something to consider, because playing garruk wildspeaker/nissa worldwaker to untap lands you let you tutor and cast something in the same turn.
The deck is probably too slow, but maybe it'll work out.
Not too sure what is with the list of walkers you mentioned. I alr have some of those in the deck... the others were cut because of the value of the ability or just basically not in the colour.
Yes, I alr mentioned I'm playing counterspells and removal package. Yes it's a slow deck. It is meant to be that way
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Coiling Oracle
4x Wall of Omens
3x Blade Splicer
3x Kitchen Finks
3x Eternal Witness
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Restoration Angel
4x Eerie Interlude
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (4)
4x Æther Vial
Land (21)
1x Breeding Pool
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Other creatures I considered:
Bounding Krasis, Snapcaster Mage, Flickerwisp, Blade Splicer, Void Grafter, Venser, Shaper Savant, Stonehorn Dignitary, Mangara of Corondor, Glen Elendra Archmage, Lyev Skyknight, Nest Invader, Reveillark, Elvish Visionary/Coiling Oracle and Thraben Inspector.
Btw, here is an example of a similar deck from last year - http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-bant-ghostway#online
Would this deck work ?
How is this idea ?
Meddling Mage (or Phyrexian Revoker) also seems good here as it can be reset to different cards after blinking to wreck certain strategies (it might be a better idea to run it over Icatian Javelineers).
Another possible top-end for the deck can be Lavinia of the Tenth that can lock out the opponent or open up an alpha strike ootion.
CG
I'm looking at something like Bant tokens - GW tokens did incredibly well at GPLA - is the blue splash into bant colors the best type of place to try Tamiyo? You'd have no lack of targets for the +1 and such a shell should be great offensively AND defensively. I'm not sure, but if ever there was a card with raw power to make you take a second look at things I think it's this one.
Also so many counterspells with no flash creatures, seems not great as it's not a tempo deck.
I'm also not sure how good is Tarmogoyf in this deck.
I would look in to adding some of these creatures (Bant's strength in my opionion lies with the creatures):
Voice of Resurgence, Loxodon Smiter, ,Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Kitchen Finks and Rhox War Monk.
With Geist, Smiter and KotR I can see Stubborn Denial as the counterspell of choice.
Honor of the Pure also seems like a good idea as it buffs everyone (if you replace Snapcaster and Goyf).
Here is an idea:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
4x Loxodon Smiter
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Rhox War Monk
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Instant (10)
2x Dromoka's Command
4x Path to Exile
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Serum Visions
Enchantment (2)
2x Honor of the Pure
Land (20)
4x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
2x Temple Garden
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
4x Razorverge Thicket
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
2x Beast Within
1x Detention Sphere
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Natural State
2x Rest in Peace
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Stony Silence
This sounds really wrong to me. How is worship even mildly effective against those decks? When they want to go off they just bounce your Worship or blow it up or wipe your board, or just win with lab maniac. I don't think those decks care about Worship even a little bit.
or discarded and works great naturally with Stubborn Denial.
4x Geist seems a bit much as it's legendary.
Honor of the Pure helps turn on ferocious for Stubborn Denial and is also very good with Finks, Geist and Brimaz and their tokens and all the white creatures in general.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/modern-bant-flash-company/
And another deck with CoCo and Cryptic.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13380
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10644&d=260931&f=MO
RIP: GWU Midrange (2012-2013) | GWR Ally (2014-2016)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Meddling Mage
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Spellskite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Spell Queller
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Simic Charm
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Bant Charm
3 Ojutai's Command
2 Cryptic Command
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
1 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Celestial Purge
1 Stony silence
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Disenchant
1 Negate
1 Fragmentize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghost Quarter
Going for a controlish mid-range deck here. Maybe just worse than Jund, but should be fun! Rebuying 2cmc threats with ojutai's is my grind engine.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG