How good would sphinx's revelation be in this deck? To me it seems like a good way to stabilize after slowing your opponent down.
I'd agree with "meh". It's really reliant on your opponents attacking ability. Most of the time, if your opponent is playing some form of aggro, they will either run over it and whatever you draw will have little chance to save you, or they'll just wait until they draw a removal spell to get in for the alpha strike or something like that.
Of course, other bombs we have are just as susceptible to removal, but this guy is too reliant on your opponent's game plan. consecrated sphinx and dragksol Reaver are a lot better than this card.
Edit: wait a minute, sphinx's revelation, not the new azorious guild master...got it.
To be honest, I like it, but I have yet to try it and see how well it does. The biggest issue is that it's costly. And we already know for a fact that blue sun's zenith, which is very similar to sphinx's revelation, isn't very playable because it's just too slow and too costly.
so short answer: probably not
long answer: maybe, we need to playtest with it and see.
The problem with sphinx's revelation is that you can't use it as a win condition. So it's taking up a removal or counter spell spot in your deck.
Blue sun's zenith is slow, but it's certainly a better card than white sun's zenith. With USZ, you can use it to find and answer to a troublesome board state. Say you're facing lethal attackers and your only out is wrath. WSZ isn't really going to help you there.
If you're not a slow player you won't have any draws playing USZ.
The problem with sphinx's revelation is that you can't use it as a win condition. So it's taking up a removal or counter spell spot in your deck.
Blue sun's zenith is slow, but it's certainly a better card than white sun's zenith. With USZ, you can use it to find and answer to a troublesome board state. Say you're facing lethal attackers and your only out is wrath. WSZ isn't really going to help you there.
If you're not a slow player you won't have any draws playing USZ.
I use white sun's zenith as a win condition in some match ups because some decks can't do anything about an EoT white sun for 10 and get overrun on the following turn. Even if you can't generate enough cats to win the game on the next turn, if they don't get overrun by cats at some point in the game, then you probably aren't using it right, or you're using it against the wrong deck. Mystical teachings is our way of finding answers. Paying 4 mana to find what we know will work is better than using a lot of mana in hopes of finding a card you'll need out of the multiple that you draw. What makes mystical teachings good is that we can flash it back out of our graveyard generating card advantage. The first time we use mystical teachings we get something we need, by the time you flash it back, you should be able to get something you can use to end the game. This is why White Sun's Zenith, Teferi, Vendilion Clique, etc. are appropriate for the deck. Blue sun just doesn't really fit the playstyle. Esper charm is a far more efficient form of card draw for this deck.
Although, I agree about sphinx's revelation. It doesn't win games, and it doesn't necessarily help you out depending on the cards you draw.
Getting attacked? WSZ makes blockers. How can you think that would not be useful? You can go and get it again to make more cats to kill them with. The card is bananas. I have not played teachings in a while, but it was the very first modern deck I built and I used WSZ from the beginning. WSZ + Teferi + Fatty were my win cons but most of the time, it was the WSZ which would get there.
I played blue sun's zenith as well, but found it much more clunky. I would cut it before WSZ.
I use white sun's zenith as a win condition in some match ups because some decks can't do anything about an EoT white sun for 10 and get overrun on the following turn. Even if you can't generate enough cats to win the game on the next turn, if they don't get overrun by cats at some point in the game, then you probably aren't using it right, or you're using it against the wrong deck. Mystical teachings is our way of finding answers. Paying 4 mana to find what we know will work is better than using a lot of mana in hopes of finding a card you'll need out of the multiple that you draw. What makes mystical teachings good is that we can flash it back out of our graveyard generating card advantage. The first time we use mystical teachings we get something we need, by the time you flash it back, you should be able to get something you can use to end the game. This is why White Sun's Zenith, Teferi, Vendilion Clique, etc. are appropriate for the deck. Blue sun just doesn't really fit the playstyle. Esper charm is a far more efficient form of card draw for this deck.
Although, I agree about sphinx's revelation. It doesn't win games, and it doesn't necessarily help you out depending on the cards you draw.
I know how mystical teaching works. I don't agree that WSZ is a good card in the deck.
There are times when you're going to die the next turn and WSZ won't save you. With USZ you're always drawing live assuming you still have the answer card(s) in your deck.
Getting attacked? WSZ makes blockers. How can you think that would not be useful? You can go and get it again to make more cats to kill them with. The card is bananas. I have not played teachings in a while, but it was the very first modern deck I built and I used WSZ from the beginning. WSZ + Teferi + Fatty were my win cons but most of the time, it was the WSZ which would get there.
I played blue sun's zenith as well, but found it much more clunky. I would cut it before WSZ.
I have actually stopped playing Teachings on paper, and traded some of the pieces to cover a friend's debt (long story short...I have the friend's affinity deck which I will never play), for the use of the lands in other decks that are somewhat more proactive (big mistake)
anyway...A singleton white sun's zenith is never a bad idea in this deck. It is not a wasted slot and it actually functions as a viable win condition in this deck (I might be biased as it is my favorite finisher period, but this is for good reason) I dont really believe that there should be argument against it as a 1x-of though. Yes there are times where white sun's zenith wont save you but there are also some times where teferi will not save you either and he fulfils a similar function of Instant Endgame Finisher/Opponent's Gameplan Detriment, but I do not know how you all evaluate cards nowadays
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Getting attacked? WSZ makes blockers. How can you think that would not be useful? You can go and get it again to make more cats to kill them with. The card is bananas. I have not played teachings in a while, but it was the very first modern deck I built and I used WSZ from the beginning. WSZ + Teferi + Fatty were my win cons but most of the time, it was the WSZ which would get there.
I played blue sun's zenith as well, but found it much more clunky. I would cut it before WSZ.
He hit it right on the head. I stopped running WSZ, but only because it was strictly worse than an extra Vendilion Clique against Combo and I'd elected to try out Lone Revenant as the late game bomb that was good against all these blitz decks. I'll probably give it a shot again when I finally put my deck together on paper for this Modern PTQ season. Supreme Verdict over Damnation should make the :symw::symw::symw: castiing cost less annoying.
Well, I suppose that I do remain faithful to this deck, even though it really hasn't been particularly good in the past year or so. What we really need is I Never Smile back on board attempting to build the deck because I do believe that he is by far the most experienced with this deck (out of anyone here, Wafo-Tapa might have him beat). Honestly I like the list, especially the muddle the mixture "package". I can't imagine this deck beating valakut G1 though, packing 3 mana leak, 2 cryptic, 1 muddle does not seem like it's good enough. I think the best thing to do is just chain teachings into a counterspell hand with a surgical, but there is no LD... Not sure about sphinx's revelation either, it seems subpar (though decent at putting the game completely out of reach from URW delver and zoo).
Thoughts, I have not experience with the deck after rtr so IDK how good verdict and co are. Also note the distinct lack of discard and 1 of think twice, odd choices IMO, should probably test...
This deck is pretty sweet. I have most of the cards except for mindbreak trap. I lost easily to storm, so I'll get it eventually. I guess i need it for tron too. So I put in a dispel in place of it.
I don't understand the remove soul in the board, there's so much creature removal already. I guess you swap a mana leak for it when sideboarding?
I want to try fracturing gust, but i'm pretty sure it's too slow, vs affinity. And i'm guessing it doesn't do anything vs eggs?
Are there any good cheap or instant wraths? Is Hideous Laughter any good? What about infest? Retaliate looks interesting. I guess supreme verdict is your out to geist decks?
This deck is pretty sweet. I have most of the cards except for mindbreak trap. I lost easily to storm, so I'll get it eventually. I guess i need it for tron too. So I put in a dispel in place of it.
I don't understand the remove soul in the board, there's so much creature removal already. I guess you swap a mana leak for it when sideboarding?
I want to try fracturing gust, but i'm pretty sure it's too slow, vs affinity. And i'm guessing it doesn't do anything vs eggs?
Are there any good cheap or instant wraths? Is Hideous Laughter any good? What about infest? Retaliate looks interesting. I guess supreme verdict is your out to geist decks?
The remove soul is probably for pod based decks, since pod decks have so many ETB abilities. But that's just a guess. I've been running essence scatter as a singleton in my deck for a while
As for charge lands, I really like them, especially if you're using white sun. I actually run one of each: one calciform pools, one dreadship reef.
Also, I like hideous laughter against WUR delver and affinity, but that's about it. Zealous persecution is also kind of similar, but probably not what we're looking for.
What do you mean by discard? Like Inquisition of Kozilek? I recommend it, but some people are split on it, so it's probably one of those things that comes down to preference.
As for tron, more counterspells...and mindbreak trap.
what do U think about some discard?
all our 1-2 mana spells are 1v1.
Discard hits harder and its more efektive.
How do U play vs Tron? its a nightmare...
It's worth noting that this style of deck should be the natural predator of a slow combo deck like Tron. The only problem is being forced to run 10-15 kill spells due to the Blitz decks in the format. You'll find that if you trim down on actual kill spells and run flash tempo creatures like Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique or Aven Mindcensor, the combo matchup is trivial. It's dealing with the Aggro decks alongside the combo decks that's brutal.
As far as discard, I'd seriously recommend cutting Inquisitions for Thoughtseizes at this point. No, I haven't touched the deck in a month, but after seeing the Pro Tour decks I'm thinking that you really need to be able to strip cards like Faith's Reward, Scapeshift, Bloodbraid elf, Karn, etc.
RG Artifact Tron actually has pretty unearthly inevitability. They stick the complete Tron and the uncounterable, tough-to-remove Emrakul and you're doomed. Emrakul would also be quite a bit more manageable if Tron didn't hardcast her (and therefore take an extra turn with her) all the time.
I've had huge trouble with a Modern UWR Control deck against RG Artifact Tron, even after boarding in 3-4 Molten Rain and all my hard counterspells and Hide // Seeks (no black splash at the time, so only Hide and no Seek). That's probably at least 10 cards boarded in. I've now put in a Watery Grave, swapped some LD for Sowing Salt, and stuck in Telemin Performance (may be outdated because I can't guarantee milling out UR Storm anymore since they play Goblin Electromancer) in a desperate attempt to beat them.
Seriously, Tron trucked right past 3 Molten Rains in one game once. With 8 land search cards and 17+ cantrips, RG Artifact Tron is one of the most consistent decks in Modern. Teachings can turn its lands into Islands or destroy lands all it wants, but with such a slow clock, Tron gets to it all the time.
Seriously, Tron trucked right past 3 Molten Rains in one game once. With 8 land search cards and 17+ cantrips, RG Artifact Tron is one of the most consistent decks in Modern. Teachings can turn its lands into Islands or destroy lands all it wants, but with such a slow clock, Tron gets to it all the time.
Sadly enough, we don't really have the sort of control we need against something like R/G tron, so we have to play the beat down/tempo route against them.
Yeah, with the low counterspell density and useless creature removal they end up with inevitability due to their threat density. The deck is pretty weak to any sort of tempo, though. You just can't think that Tectonic Edge or whatever else is going to shut the deck down when it's more of a Ramp deck than a Combo deck. The only particular thing I think you can realistically shut down is Emrakul + Eye of Ugin, and that's what Mindbreak Trap in the sideboard is for.
Probably always going to be a terrible matchup, but if you care that much I'd say throw Geist of Saint Traft/Vendilion Clique and whatnot in the sideboard alongside Negates.
Emrakul is tough to stop when he is cast. Killing him won't matter since they will just tutor him up again. Often I use Cryptic Command tapping then followup with a Sower of Temptation (from the sideboard). Most Tron decks wont keep removal in versus Teachings, which leaves an opening for Sower. You really have to play Tectonic Edge too.
Stony Silence is also good against eggs, so it isn't a one match-up card. Sure, not being able to fetch it means you have to run more of them, but you're not going to have time to fetch an answer to tron, they'll be casting a Karn by the time we can teachings for mindcensor, and then any threat they draw is tough
I'd agree with "meh". It's really reliant on your opponents attacking ability. Most of the time, if your opponent is playing some form of aggro, they will either run over it and whatever you draw will have little chance to save you, or they'll just wait until they draw a removal spell to get in for the alpha strike or something like that.
Of course, other bombs we have are just as susceptible to removal, but this guy is too reliant on your opponent's game plan. consecrated sphinx and dragksol Reaver are a lot better than this card.
Edit: wait a minute, sphinx's revelation, not the new azorious guild master...got it.
To be honest, I like it, but I have yet to try it and see how well it does. The biggest issue is that it's costly. And we already know for a fact that blue sun's zenith, which is very similar to sphinx's revelation, isn't very playable because it's just too slow and too costly.
so short answer: probably not
long answer: maybe, we need to playtest with it and see.
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Blue sun's zenith is slow, but it's certainly a better card than white sun's zenith. With USZ, you can use it to find and answer to a troublesome board state. Say you're facing lethal attackers and your only out is wrath. WSZ isn't really going to help you there.
If you're not a slow player you won't have any draws playing USZ.
I use white sun's zenith as a win condition in some match ups because some decks can't do anything about an EoT white sun for 10 and get overrun on the following turn. Even if you can't generate enough cats to win the game on the next turn, if they don't get overrun by cats at some point in the game, then you probably aren't using it right, or you're using it against the wrong deck. Mystical teachings is our way of finding answers. Paying 4 mana to find what we know will work is better than using a lot of mana in hopes of finding a card you'll need out of the multiple that you draw. What makes mystical teachings good is that we can flash it back out of our graveyard generating card advantage. The first time we use mystical teachings we get something we need, by the time you flash it back, you should be able to get something you can use to end the game. This is why White Sun's Zenith, Teferi, Vendilion Clique, etc. are appropriate for the deck. Blue sun just doesn't really fit the playstyle. Esper charm is a far more efficient form of card draw for this deck.
Although, I agree about sphinx's revelation. It doesn't win games, and it doesn't necessarily help you out depending on the cards you draw.
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I played blue sun's zenith as well, but found it much more clunky. I would cut it before WSZ.
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I know how mystical teaching works. I don't agree that WSZ is a good card in the deck.
There are times when you're going to die the next turn and WSZ won't save you. With USZ you're always drawing live assuming you still have the answer card(s) in your deck.
some decks play creatures with flying
anyway...A singleton white sun's zenith is never a bad idea in this deck. It is not a wasted slot and it actually functions as a viable win condition in this deck (I might be biased as it is my favorite finisher period, but this is for good reason) I dont really believe that there should be argument against it as a 1x-of though. Yes there are times where white sun's zenith wont save you but there are also some times where teferi will not save you either and he fulfils a similar function of Instant Endgame Finisher/Opponent's Gameplan Detriment, but I do not know how you all evaluate cards nowadays
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
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G Elves
UW control
He hit it right on the head. I stopped running WSZ, but only because it was strictly worse than an extra Vendilion Clique against Combo and I'd elected to try out Lone Revenant as the late game bomb that was good against all these blitz decks. I'll probably give it a shot again when I finally put my deck together on paper for this Modern PTQ season. Supreme Verdict over Damnation should make the :symw::symw::symw: castiing cost less annoying.
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Standard: Esper Control | UWR Flash --- Modern: Melira Pod | Splinter Twin
Well, I suppose that I do remain faithful to this deck, even though it really hasn't been particularly good in the past year or so. What we really need is I Never Smile back on board attempting to build the deck because I do believe that he is by far the most experienced with this deck (out of anyone here, Wafo-Tapa might have him beat). Honestly I like the list, especially the muddle the mixture "package". I can't imagine this deck beating valakut G1 though, packing 3 mana leak, 2 cryptic, 1 muddle does not seem like it's good enough. I think the best thing to do is just chain teachings into a counterspell hand with a surgical, but there is no LD... Not sure about sphinx's revelation either, it seems subpar (though decent at putting the game completely out of reach from URW delver and zoo).
Thoughts, I have not experience with the deck after rtr so IDK how good verdict and co are. Also note the distinct lack of discard and 1 of think twice, odd choices IMO, should probably test...
EDIT: the gather specimens in the sideboard is spicy!
Nice i have most those cards on mtgo. Going to try it out except i might cheap out on the mind break trap and maybe the mystic gates.
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This deck is pretty sweet. I have most of the cards except for mindbreak trap. I lost easily to storm, so I'll get it eventually. I guess i need it for tron too. So I put in a dispel in place of it.
I don't understand the remove soul in the board, there's so much creature removal already. I guess you swap a mana leak for it when sideboarding?
I want to try fracturing gust, but i'm pretty sure it's too slow, vs affinity. And i'm guessing it doesn't do anything vs eggs?
Are there any good cheap or instant wraths? Is Hideous Laughter any good? What about infest? Retaliate looks interesting. I guess supreme verdict is your out to geist decks?
Can this deck play 1-2 charge lands? Calciform pools?
The remove soul is probably for pod based decks, since pod decks have so many ETB abilities. But that's just a guess. I've been running essence scatter as a singleton in my deck for a while
As for charge lands, I really like them, especially if you're using white sun. I actually run one of each: one calciform pools, one dreadship reef.
Also, I like hideous laughter against WUR delver and affinity, but that's about it. Zealous persecution is also kind of similar, but probably not what we're looking for.
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As for tron, more counterspells...and mindbreak trap.
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It's worth noting that this style of deck should be the natural predator of a slow combo deck like Tron. The only problem is being forced to run 10-15 kill spells due to the Blitz decks in the format. You'll find that if you trim down on actual kill spells and run flash tempo creatures like Snapcaster, Vendilion Clique or Aven Mindcensor, the combo matchup is trivial. It's dealing with the Aggro decks alongside the combo decks that's brutal.
As far as discard, I'd seriously recommend cutting Inquisitions for Thoughtseizes at this point. No, I haven't touched the deck in a month, but after seeing the Pro Tour decks I'm thinking that you really need to be able to strip cards like Faith's Reward, Scapeshift, Bloodbraid elf, Karn, etc.
I've had huge trouble with a Modern UWR Control deck against RG Artifact Tron, even after boarding in 3-4 Molten Rain and all my hard counterspells and Hide // Seeks (no black splash at the time, so only Hide and no Seek). That's probably at least 10 cards boarded in. I've now put in a Watery Grave, swapped some LD for Sowing Salt, and stuck in Telemin Performance (may be outdated because I can't guarantee milling out UR Storm anymore since they play Goblin Electromancer) in a desperate attempt to beat them.
Seriously, Tron trucked right past 3 Molten Rains in one game once. With 8 land search cards and 17+ cantrips, RG Artifact Tron is one of the most consistent decks in Modern. Teachings can turn its lands into Islands or destroy lands all it wants, but with such a slow clock, Tron gets to it all the time.
Sadly enough, we don't really have the sort of control we need against something like R/G tron, so we have to play the beat down/tempo route against them.
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Probably always going to be a terrible matchup, but if you care that much I'd say throw Geist of Saint Traft/Vendilion Clique and whatnot in the sideboard alongside Negates.
You can also get them to discard it via esper charm then surgical extract it.
I'd rather play mindsensor over stony silence. You can tutor for it and it puts them on a clock.
But yeah this deck is not favored vs r/g tron. So I don't know how much sideboard you want to take up when it won't help that much.
You're going to be taking 15 and saccing permanents with those answers to Emrakul.
The removal spells you get in black/white are just fine. You can main deck rest for the weary for life gain.
Disfigure has been surprisingly good.