Yeah it took me a while to understand the dissynergy between path and leak/snag etc. I've moved to the full 4 paths and damnations + 2 negates and cryptic commands.
So with the new sweeper that can't be countered being printed what are thoughts on replacing damnation with it. I think it's good because it can't be remanded by delver players. How many regenerating creatures are floating around in modern anyways?
So with the new sweeper that can't be countered being printed what are thoughts on replacing damnation with it. I think it's good because it can't be remanded by delver players. How many regenerating creatures are floating around in modern anyways?
I still like damnation over this card for the sole that it's easier to cast with double black as opposed to double white. Double white is surprisingly difficult to do sometimes. However, having it uncounterable is certainly very relevant against a deck like WUR delver. So, I'm a bit torn. I think ultimately this is a better card to have right now considering the inability to regenerate isn't really relevant except against thrun, the last troll, which we can use geth's verdict for.
I still like damnation over this card for the sole that it's easier to cast with double black as opposed to double white. Double white is surprisingly difficult to do sometimes. However, having it uncounterable is certainly very relevant against a deck like WUR delver. So, I'm a bit torn. I think ultimately this is a better card to have right now considering the inability to regenerate isn't really relevant except against thrun, the last troll, which we can use geth's verdict for.
I'm thinking it's best to rework the mana base to fit double white for this spell. Not getting your wrath countered might be enough to make Tempo a great matchup.
I might even move to a BUG build with that new removal spell, seems like it beats up on tempo nicely.
I've tried bug before. It's good, but path to exile and esper charm are some big players that can't be used in bug which actually makes a pretty big difference. I definitely like abrupt decay though, and bug also gives us access to maelstrom pulse and eternal witness. Also, we can use tarmogoyf. And who knows what simic and dimir from RTR might bring us.
I think the idea of going heavier white is better right now anyways. I don't feel like hand disruption is the way to go currently so moving heavier white seems ideal at the moment
I think the idea of going heavier white is better right now anyways. I don't feel like hand disruption is the way to go currently so moving heavier white seems ideal at the moment
I will always be a supporter of hand disruption, but when the new card comes out, I think adjusting the mana base to be easier on white will be a good idea for the new board wipe. But hand disruption should still be part of the deck, IMO.
Why do you like hand disruption? Thoughtseize is the best one but life loss is very relevant. None of the disruption spells hit everything and they are absolutely dead draws late game. I understand having it in the board but when most of the format is aggro I feel that removal may be better than discard. You may be right I just have a different opinion on the subject.
Why do you like hand disruption? Thoughtseize is the best one but life loss is very relevant. None of the disruption spells hit everything and they are absolutely dead draws late game. I understand having it in the board but when most of the format is aggro I feel that removal may be better than discard. You may be right I just have a different opinion on the subject.
I've always hated hand disruption in a deck like teachings. If you get it turn 1, it's not *bad*, but any time you draw it after turn 1, it's awful. Furthermore, it doesn't prevent anything from hitting the board. Ripping a spell away from a combo deck may be helpful, but ripping away a creature only for your opponent to play their *other* 2 drop the following turn really doesn't get you anywhere.
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Not sure of you need the hand disruption. That seems better for tempo style decks that look for an offensive followup after shredding your hand.
I've been looking at various control attempts, and I cam back over here to take a look.
One thing is the RDW matchup concerns me. Its popular. I know their is Pulse as a MTeachings target, and I'm pretty sure you'll need it. There's the instant speed card/life draw spell, which could make a decent singleton late game where this deck aims to be.
What are your people's counterspell setup? I prefer:
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
Reason being, I prefer early game control moving into late game with no dilly dallying, just efficiency. These counters hit the most relevant things and Mana Leak is still good for controlling mid game to three until you get cryptic command mana. This requires a heavy blue committment though.
I think alot of lists kinda skimp on card drawing too. No Think Twices? That seems really risky. I would run a full set of Think Twice and probably a singleton Jace's Ingenuity or BSZenith for late game. This deck is all about one for one, either through permission or removal, so you need loads of card drawing to recuperate.
This is why I think some of the utility slots could be things like Repeal, since it acts as pseudo removal and nets you a card. It helps you control a permanent plus retain card parity. Important.
Is anyone using Lingering Souls? Seems like it could help just with buying time, and time is what you require to survive and finish. I'm not certain if lingering souls should be in the deck, but it seems like it has decent synergy.
Library manipulation is pretty lousy in Modern. My thought is too simply add more card drawing effects or more redundancy to help facilitate drawing hot.
I don't think the finisher really matters so much. Personally I like Sun Titan for the card advantage he creates, especially recurring Baby Jace/SCMage late game to stay ahead on cards and close the game.
The land configuration is still in work. I wanted to mainboard a single Extirpate in the Repeal slot, and I may I dunno. I also may cut the Venser, but he has helped me in a pinch to stop Emrakul or other weird stuff. I still like Teferi since he makes it so I can force the adversary to fight on my terms by dropping him first then Sun Titan. Baby Jace was a concession, and even though I am more draw go, sometimes I have to dig fast or need the extra cards. I wait if I can but if the heat is on, I drop him and draw. I have debated Forbidden Alchemy in this slot, but am unsure as I just wanted raw card drawing not just selection, plus I cant affor to toss Sun Titan by accident and I dont want unburial rites here. My last experiments will be Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil. Liliana seems lackluster, she works against draw go plus she doesnt help versus burn decks either. But then again she has synergy with Scmage and lingering souls and Mystical Teachings.
I've always hated hand disruption in a deck like teachings. If you get it turn 1, it's not *bad*, but any time you draw it after turn 1, it's awful. Furthermore, it doesn't prevent anything from hitting the board. Ripping a spell away from a combo deck may be helpful, but ripping away a creature only for your opponent to play their *other* 2 drop the following turn really doesn't get you anywhere.
Hand disruption in this deck does not work the same way it does in Jund. In Jund, you're right. Past turn 2 or 3, hand disruption is probably pretty useless. That's not the case with this deck.
I've actually found in most match ups hand disruptions spells are still a good thing to have late game with this deck. Since most people play conservatively around control decks like teachings they tend to hold on to their spells until they find an opportune moment to cast them. Often times, my opponent is surprised and left wide open if I draw into a late game thoughtseize and get their cryptic command, or hell, even try to cast their cryptic command to counter thoughtseize, and cryptic command is only one good example out of several. My point is, it's still good late game in this deck in most match ups where the game has still yet to be locked down by either player while playing carefully around control.
You do make a valid point that against some hands you get to take one thing, and that's it, and they just overrun with everything else, but I find that actually doesn't happen very often with most of the popular decks. But in a deck like this it's nice to be able to be preemptive in some situations. Like I mention in the primer, there's often times a spell that the opponent has that you can't deal with very well. Namely: Geist of Saint Traft. Sure, we can always damnation it or something like that, but you can't always rely on the fact that you're going to draw into one, or rely on the fact that you will still be alive by the time you can tutor for a consume the meek. On top of that, you have a better idea of what to counter and what to use your removal on. Somebody once tried to argue to me that knowing what's in somebody's hand isn't all that relevant, but I'm not sure I can agree with that, especially with a deck like this.
Also, the difference between two different two drops can be pretty critical. For instance, thalia vs. bob. I'd much rather take the thalia before they can cast it, so they can cast bob so I don't have to spend extra mana to remove it. There are so many times where grabbing something has saved my butt. In my last game against DXI, I got his opening hand blood moon with a thoughtseize. Of course I still lost that game when he drew another and I wasn't prepared for it, but this deck has a lot of serious threats that are best taken care of before they hit the field.
Admittedly, in aggro matchups, thoughtseize is a little greedy, but leaving in Inquisition of Kozilek gets almost everything threatening in affinity and many other aggro match ups that we don't do a good job of dealing with on our own. I rarely ever cast hand disruption wishing it had been something else, even against decks like burn.
It's always difficult to argue against a player I respect, but I stand by my opinion ;)...
...which probably makes me look foolish, as usual.
Hand disruption in this deck does not work the same way it does in Jund. In Jund, you're right. Past turn 2 or 3, hand disruption is probably pretty useless. That's not the case with this deck.
I've actually found in most match ups hand disruptions spells are still a good thing to have late game with this deck. Since most people play conservatively around control decks like teachings they tend to hold on to their spells until they find an opportune moment to cast them. Often times, my opponent is surprised and left wide open if I draw into a late game thoughtseize and get their cryptic command, or hell, even try to cast their cryptic command to counter thoughtseize, and cryptic command is only one good example out of several. My point is, it's still good late game in this deck in most match ups where the game has still yet to be locked down by either player while playing carefully around control.
You do make a valid point that against some hands you get to take one thing, and that's it, and they just overrun with everything else, but I find that actually doesn't happen very often with most of the popular decks. But in a deck like this it's nice to be able to be preemptive in some situations. Like I mention in the primer, there's often times a spell that the opponent has that you can't deal with very well. Namely: Geist of Saint Traft. Sure, we can always damnation it or something like that, but you can't always rely on the fact that you're going to draw into one, or rely on the fact that you will still be alive by the time you can tutor for a consume the meek. On top of that, you have a better idea of what to counter and what to use your removal on. Somebody once tried to argue to me that knowing what's in somebody's hand isn't all that relevant, but I'm not sure I can agree with that, especially with a deck like this.
Also, the difference between two different two drops can be pretty critical. For instance, thalia vs. bob. I'd much rather take the thalia before they can cast it, so they can cast bob so I don't have to spend extra mana to remove it. There are so many times where grabbing something has saved my butt. In my last game against DXI, I got his opening hand blood moon with a thoughtseize. Of course I still lost that game when he drew another and I wasn't prepared for it, but this deck has a lot of serious threats that are best taken care of before they hit the field.
Admittedly, in aggro matchups, thoughtseize is a little greedy, but leaving in Inquisition of Kozilek gets almost everything threatening in affinity and many other aggro match ups that we don't do a good job of dealing with on our own. I rarely ever cast hand disruption wishing it had been something else, even against decks like burn.
It's always difficult to argue against a player I respect, but I stand by my opinion ;)...
...which probably makes me look foolish, as usual.
It's fair enough. I know a lot of good players who love hand disruption in control decks. I've been arguing against it since forever, and outside decks that can put a clock on, I don't think it's worth it in high volumes. That being said, I don't think it's bad in teachings, and I've played some copies of it in my sideboards (which works well in tandem with extraction).
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To shed some light on why both event-winning Teachings decks are using hand disruption over counterspells, look at it like this:
Against Aggro, you need removal. Counterspells are pretty crappy, and you mostly want sweepers and spot removal in order for your draws to not be dead.
Against Combo, you need either counterspells or removal. Counterspells can work, but we all know that they're much weaker than discard against Storm (the most notable combo deck), and against Tron the counters that would hit their threats (Mana Leak or Negate/Spell Pierce) are terrible against Aggro decks due to the conflict between Path to Exile and Mana Leak.
Targeted discard is a bad draw late game, but that's not so relevant when your engine is Mystical Teachings. If you look at it from a global standpoint, you really just need to not get smashed the first 4 turns of the game in this blitz format, and targeted discard is best for that. Once you can Mystical Teachings without staring down lethal, you've likely won the game.
So who cares if you draw Thoughtseize on turn 6. Juunya Iyunaga was just making sure his opening 7 could always get him to 4 untapped mana on their end step.
To shed some light on why both event-winning Teachings decks are using hand disruption over counterspells, look at it like this:
Against Aggro, you need removal. Counterspells are pretty crappy, and you mostly want sweepers and spot removal in order for your draws to not be dead.
Against Combo, you need either counterspells or removal. Counterspells can work, but we all know that they're much weaker than discard against Storm (the most notable combo deck), and against Tron the counters that would hit their threats (Mana Leak or Negate/Spell Pierce) are terrible against Aggro decks due to the conflict between Path to Exile and Mana Leak.
Targeted discard is a bad draw late game, but that's not so relevant when your engine is Mystical Teachings. If you look at it from a global standpoint, you really just need to not get smashed the first 4 turns of the game in this blitz format, and targeted discard is best for that. Once you can Mystical Teachings without staring down lethal, you've likely won the game.
So who cares if you draw Thoughtseize on turn 6. Juunya Iyunaga was just making sure his opening 7 could always get him to 4 untapped mana on their end step.
Honestly, I disagree on the notion of counterspells being worse vs. aggro than discard is. I actually feel it's the opposite way around. Let me offer some perspective.
Lets take a simple example- the zoo matchup: Lets say you're on the play here.
Lets take an instance of Mana Leak vs. Inquisition of Kozilek.
In the instance of the inquisition, you play it, and rip out their most devastating threat. In most instances, this will be something like a Geist of Saint Traft, Knight of the Reliquary, or perhaps even a Tarmogoyf.
They're probably going to drop a turn 1 attacker. Thing is, you can afford to take quite a few hits from a turn 1 beatstick, then wait to remove during your opponent's end step. What you can't afford to happen is for them to hit their curve perfectly and resolve a devastating threat before stabilizing. Counters buy you more time to stabilize than discard does, and once you get to 3-4 mana, you should start gaining an advantage assuming you're playing a well-built control deck.
Inquisition takes out a single threat from their hand, but it doesn't slow down their onslaught since most of the time they'll still be able to resolve their cards on-curve. The mana leak in this instance counters their most crucial threat, and also sets them back a turn. In a control deck, you desperately want to be able to set them back on their clock so you can stabilize under superior card advantage and threats.
Discard effects rarely will slow your opponent down, and are also marginally worse late-game than counters are.
Second... counters are better against combo decks
This is another point to dispute, but 90% of the time, counters will be superior. Why? Because an opponent has a more difficult time playing against counters than they do against discard effects.
If you're playing a storm combo for instance, do you start playing your rituals early before the opponent can start accruing too much card advantage & disruption? If your opponent is playing discard heavy, you know what you have to play around, and you know there is a significantly lower risk of your crucial past in flames getting remanded or countered.
Furthermore, discard effects are worse against most combo decks. Against storm combo, what do you discard? Past in flames? Grapeshot? Cantrips? It simply isn't that relevant. Against Birthing Pod combo decks, you need to be playing thoughtseize to hit all their threats, and a top-deck birthing pod will ruin you anyway.
Long story short, I don't think thoughtseize and Inquisition are bad per say, but the ability to make your opponent waste a turn playing into a mana leak is 10x more valuable than getting rid of a card in your opponent's hand.
The main caveat here, is that I do think thoughtseize / inquisition are good when used in conjunction with other lock pieces like Chalice of the Void and sideboard extraction effects. They're also still pretty good turn 1 when you often don't want to do anything else, but either way, I still maintain Mana leak is 10x better than discard effects in dedicated control strategies.
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I believe people need to be seeing the use of targeted discard in Teachings in context here. Targeted discard in Teachings was originally on the rise when Zoo was a top-tier deck and Wild Nacatl was a premier threat. Being able to rip out 1-drops like Nacatl ended up being targeted discard's primary edge in Teachings.
Heck, if the Zoo player kept a hand of Nacatl, Goyf, Goyf, Pridemage, Path to Exile, and two lands and topdecked a Bolt, targeted discard really did slow the Zoo player down.
Targeted discard become popular back when players may not have been able to take that many hits from a 1-mana beatstick, especially when it was followed up by more 1-mana beatsticks or a 2-mana beatstick.
Honestly, I disagree on the notion of counterspells being worse vs. aggro than discard is. I actually feel it's the opposite way around. Let me offer some perspective.
What counterspells are you talking about then? Mana Leak? It's basically mana leak or go home. All the other counters are either too expensive or highly conditional. I would never cut targeted discard for Mana Leak.
Spell Snare is good in some matchups, but terrible in the other half and Mana Leak only stops Storm the first three turns of the game. Then, you've only countered the first ritual they played on any given turn, and they're still free to go off the next. What you needed to hit was the Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens. Against Tron, I'd call it even, although you can screw them worse with a turn one discard if you strip a turn 1 play, like Lectyrs said. Against Splinter Twin (not so relevant anymore) counterspells are far worse.
What counterspells are you talking about then? Mana Leak? It's basically mana leak or go home. All the other counters are either too expensive or highly conditional. I would never cut targeted discard for Mana Leak.
Spell Snare is good in some matchups, but terrible in the other half and Mana Leak only stops Storm the first three turns of the game. Then, you've only countered the first ritual they played on any given turn, and they're still free to go off the next. What you needed to hit was the Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens. Against Tron, I'd call it even, although you can screw them worse with a turn one discard if you strip a turn 1 play, like Lectyrs said. Against Splinter Twin (not so relevant anymore) counterspells are far worse.
You're playing mana leak the wrong way. Very rarely do you counter their first ritual. You basically need to keep them off six mana (to prevent past in flames flashback).
So you can either wait for them to get to 7 mana, leak their past in flames, in which it's either countered, or they can pay for it and have nothing happen, since they then cant pay mana to flash their spells back.
By doing this, you essentially 4 for 1 them, which you can't do with discard.
And even if they can play around it late-game, they'll also just re-draw into more combo pieces when you discard anything with seize or inquisition. Not to mention they couldn't give a crap if past in flames is in their yard. Besides, once you get to 4 mana in teachings, you start grabbing other cards that ARE relevant late game such as cryptic command, and surgical extraction (if maindeck).
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You're playing mana leak the wrong way. Very rarely do you counter their first ritual. You basically need to keep them off six mana (to prevent past in flames flashback).
I suppose I'm not a master at Modern, and I can see how Mana Leak on the second ritual can 2 for 1 them, but you sound to me like you're only playing against Storm when they only manage to go off using Past in Flames. I can't tell you how many times I've been KO'd on turn 2 by Empty the Warrens. It almost made me want to run Spell Snare.
I don't see how letting them fire off multiple rituals is going to work when your only defense is Mana Leak. The majority of kills they get on me is chaining cantrips into Grapeshot or the loveable turn 2 Empty the Warrens. I think I've lost to Past in Flames a few times, but the mana cost you mention makes that more of a last-ditch effort. A single Teachings at that point just turns into Cryptic Command and then Surgical Extraction he next turn.
But hey, maybe I'm approaching that matchup completely wrong...
I suppose I'm not a master at Modern, and I can see how Mana Leak on the second ritual can 2 for 1 them, but you sound to me like you're only playing against Storm when they only manage to go off using Past in Flames. I can't tell you how many times I've been KO'd on turn 2 by Empty the Warrens. It almost made me want to run Spell Snare.
I don't see how letting them fire off multiple rituals is going to work when your only defense is Mana Leak. The majority of kills they get on me is chaining cantrips into Grapeshot or the loveable turn 2 Empty the Warrens. I think I've lost to Past in Flames a few times, but the mana cost you mention makes that more of a last-ditch effort. A single Teachings at that point just turns into Cryptic Command and then Surgical Extraction he next turn.
But hey, maybe I'm approaching that matchup completely wrong...
It depends on the situation realistically. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've leaked their first ritual quite a few times, but generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that they'll try to PIF into the grapeshot win. It's also dependent on what else is in my hand. I've encountered only a few storm decks that are even playing Empty the Warrens mainboard these days, and I don't see a ton from the board either. That being said, this is from non-teachings decks, and I typically have better answers for empty the warrens in those decks.
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It depends on the situation realistically. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've leaked their first ritual quite a few times, but generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that they'll try to PIF into the grapeshot win. It's also dependent on what else is in my hand. I've encountered only a few storm decks that are even playing Empty the Warrens mainboard these days, and I don't see a ton from the board either. That being said, this is from non-teachings decks, and I typically have better answers for empty the warrens in those decks.
That's interesting. I tried to look at current Storm lists and there hasn't been one 3-1 in a Daily for at least a week. It seems they all transitioned to Storm. I suppose due to the rise of the blitz decks.
That should make Teachings a lot more viable if it can focus on just stonewalling aggro.
Against storm combo, what do you discard? Past in flames? Grapeshot? Cantrips? It simply isn't that relevant. Against Birthing Pod combo decks, you need to be playing thoughtseize to hit all their threats, and a top-deck birthing pod will ruin you anyway.
For the record, discard accompanied with surgical extraction can end the game on the spot. Not likely to happen if you're only running one surgical extraction, but I have done it before. Counterspells can do the same thing, though. Assuming you've gotten to turn 4 to cast teachings and they haven't gone off, you have the game in the bag because you can get whatever you need to stop them at that point whether it be a mindbreak trap or a surgical extraction.
I still like damnation over this card for the sole that it's easier to cast with double black as opposed to double white. Double white is surprisingly difficult to do sometimes. However, having it uncounterable is certainly very relevant against a deck like WUR delver. So, I'm a bit torn. I think ultimately this is a better card to have right now considering the inability to regenerate isn't really relevant except against thrun, the last troll, which we can use geth's verdict for.
Modern Junk Primer
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For one mana more you skirt Spell Snare and gain some life.
I'm thinking it's best to rework the mana base to fit double white for this spell. Not getting your wrath countered might be enough to make Tempo a great matchup.
I've tried bug before. It's good, but path to exile and esper charm are some big players that can't be used in bug which actually makes a pretty big difference. I definitely like abrupt decay though, and bug also gives us access to maelstrom pulse and eternal witness. Also, we can use tarmogoyf. And who knows what simic and dimir from RTR might bring us.
I like this idea. The life gain is actually relevant to us, unlike making our opponent lose 1 life. Double black is annoying, too.
Modern Junk Primer
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I will always be a supporter of hand disruption, but when the new card comes out, I think adjusting the mana base to be easier on white will be a good idea for the new board wipe. But hand disruption should still be part of the deck, IMO.
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I've always hated hand disruption in a deck like teachings. If you get it turn 1, it's not *bad*, but any time you draw it after turn 1, it's awful. Furthermore, it doesn't prevent anything from hitting the board. Ripping a spell away from a combo deck may be helpful, but ripping away a creature only for your opponent to play their *other* 2 drop the following turn really doesn't get you anywhere.
I've been looking at various control attempts, and I cam back over here to take a look.
One thing is the RDW matchup concerns me. Its popular. I know their is Pulse as a MTeachings target, and I'm pretty sure you'll need it. There's the instant speed card/life draw spell, which could make a decent singleton late game where this deck aims to be.
What are your people's counterspell setup? I prefer:
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
Reason being, I prefer early game control moving into late game with no dilly dallying, just efficiency. These counters hit the most relevant things and Mana Leak is still good for controlling mid game to three until you get cryptic command mana. This requires a heavy blue committment though.
I think alot of lists kinda skimp on card drawing too. No Think Twices? That seems really risky. I would run a full set of Think Twice and probably a singleton Jace's Ingenuity or BSZenith for late game. This deck is all about one for one, either through permission or removal, so you need loads of card drawing to recuperate.
This is why I think some of the utility slots could be things like Repeal, since it acts as pseudo removal and nets you a card. It helps you control a permanent plus retain card parity. Important.
Is anyone using Lingering Souls? Seems like it could help just with buying time, and time is what you require to survive and finish. I'm not certain if lingering souls should be in the deck, but it seems like it has decent synergy.
Library manipulation is pretty lousy in Modern. My thought is too simply add more card drawing effects or more redundancy to help facilitate drawing hot.
I don't think the finisher really matters so much. Personally I like Sun Titan for the card advantage he creates, especially recurring Baby Jace/SCMage late game to stay ahead on cards and close the game.
This is my proposed list:
4 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
4 Think Twice
2 [card]Jace Beleren[/card
4 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
3 Mystical Teachings
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Teferi, Mage of Zalfir
1 Sun Titan
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Repeal
The land configuration is still in work. I wanted to mainboard a single Extirpate in the Repeal slot, and I may I dunno. I also may cut the Venser, but he has helped me in a pinch to stop Emrakul or other weird stuff. I still like Teferi since he makes it so I can force the adversary to fight on my terms by dropping him first then Sun Titan. Baby Jace was a concession, and even though I am more draw go, sometimes I have to dig fast or need the extra cards. I wait if I can but if the heat is on, I drop him and draw. I have debated Forbidden Alchemy in this slot, but am unsure as I just wanted raw card drawing not just selection, plus I cant affor to toss Sun Titan by accident and I dont want unburial rites here. My last experiments will be Lingering Souls and Liliana of the Veil. Liliana seems lackluster, she works against draw go plus she doesnt help versus burn decks either. But then again she has synergy with Scmage and lingering souls and Mystical Teachings.
Current Sideboard:
2 Smother
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Disenchant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Extirpate
1 Purify the Grave
1 Wrath of God
1 Echoing Truth-Token decks, kiki
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Spell Pierce
Hand disruption in this deck does not work the same way it does in Jund. In Jund, you're right. Past turn 2 or 3, hand disruption is probably pretty useless. That's not the case with this deck.
I've actually found in most match ups hand disruptions spells are still a good thing to have late game with this deck. Since most people play conservatively around control decks like teachings they tend to hold on to their spells until they find an opportune moment to cast them. Often times, my opponent is surprised and left wide open if I draw into a late game thoughtseize and get their cryptic command, or hell, even try to cast their cryptic command to counter thoughtseize, and cryptic command is only one good example out of several. My point is, it's still good late game in this deck in most match ups where the game has still yet to be locked down by either player while playing carefully around control.
You do make a valid point that against some hands you get to take one thing, and that's it, and they just overrun with everything else, but I find that actually doesn't happen very often with most of the popular decks. But in a deck like this it's nice to be able to be preemptive in some situations. Like I mention in the primer, there's often times a spell that the opponent has that you can't deal with very well. Namely: Geist of Saint Traft. Sure, we can always damnation it or something like that, but you can't always rely on the fact that you're going to draw into one, or rely on the fact that you will still be alive by the time you can tutor for a consume the meek. On top of that, you have a better idea of what to counter and what to use your removal on. Somebody once tried to argue to me that knowing what's in somebody's hand isn't all that relevant, but I'm not sure I can agree with that, especially with a deck like this.
Also, the difference between two different two drops can be pretty critical. For instance, thalia vs. bob. I'd much rather take the thalia before they can cast it, so they can cast bob so I don't have to spend extra mana to remove it. There are so many times where grabbing something has saved my butt. In my last game against DXI, I got his opening hand blood moon with a thoughtseize. Of course I still lost that game when he drew another and I wasn't prepared for it, but this deck has a lot of serious threats that are best taken care of before they hit the field.
Admittedly, in aggro matchups, thoughtseize is a little greedy, but leaving in Inquisition of Kozilek gets almost everything threatening in affinity and many other aggro match ups that we don't do a good job of dealing with on our own. I rarely ever cast hand disruption wishing it had been something else, even against decks like burn.
It's always difficult to argue against a player I respect, but I stand by my opinion ;)...
...which probably makes me look foolish, as usual.
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It's fair enough. I know a lot of good players who love hand disruption in control decks. I've been arguing against it since forever, and outside decks that can put a clock on, I don't think it's worth it in high volumes. That being said, I don't think it's bad in teachings, and I've played some copies of it in my sideboards (which works well in tandem with extraction).
Against Aggro, you need removal. Counterspells are pretty crappy, and you mostly want sweepers and spot removal in order for your draws to not be dead.
Against Combo, you need either counterspells or removal. Counterspells can work, but we all know that they're much weaker than discard against Storm (the most notable combo deck), and against Tron the counters that would hit their threats (Mana Leak or Negate/Spell Pierce) are terrible against Aggro decks due to the conflict between Path to Exile and Mana Leak.
Targeted discard is a bad draw late game, but that's not so relevant when your engine is Mystical Teachings. If you look at it from a global standpoint, you really just need to not get smashed the first 4 turns of the game in this blitz format, and targeted discard is best for that. Once you can Mystical Teachings without staring down lethal, you've likely won the game.
So who cares if you draw Thoughtseize on turn 6. Juunya Iyunaga was just making sure his opening 7 could always get him to 4 untapped mana on their end step.
Honestly, I disagree on the notion of counterspells being worse vs. aggro than discard is. I actually feel it's the opposite way around. Let me offer some perspective.
Lets take a simple example- the zoo matchup: Lets say you're on the play here.
Lets take an instance of Mana Leak vs. Inquisition of Kozilek.
In the instance of the inquisition, you play it, and rip out their most devastating threat. In most instances, this will be something like a Geist of Saint Traft, Knight of the Reliquary, or perhaps even a Tarmogoyf.
They're probably going to drop a turn 1 attacker. Thing is, you can afford to take quite a few hits from a turn 1 beatstick, then wait to remove during your opponent's end step. What you can't afford to happen is for them to hit their curve perfectly and resolve a devastating threat before stabilizing. Counters buy you more time to stabilize than discard does, and once you get to 3-4 mana, you should start gaining an advantage assuming you're playing a well-built control deck.
Inquisition takes out a single threat from their hand, but it doesn't slow down their onslaught since most of the time they'll still be able to resolve their cards on-curve. The mana leak in this instance counters their most crucial threat, and also sets them back a turn. In a control deck, you desperately want to be able to set them back on their clock so you can stabilize under superior card advantage and threats.
Discard effects rarely will slow your opponent down, and are also marginally worse late-game than counters are.
Second... counters are better against combo decks
This is another point to dispute, but 90% of the time, counters will be superior. Why? Because an opponent has a more difficult time playing against counters than they do against discard effects.
If you're playing a storm combo for instance, do you start playing your rituals early before the opponent can start accruing too much card advantage & disruption? If your opponent is playing discard heavy, you know what you have to play around, and you know there is a significantly lower risk of your crucial past in flames getting remanded or countered.
Furthermore, discard effects are worse against most combo decks. Against storm combo, what do you discard? Past in flames? Grapeshot? Cantrips? It simply isn't that relevant. Against Birthing Pod combo decks, you need to be playing thoughtseize to hit all their threats, and a top-deck birthing pod will ruin you anyway.
Long story short, I don't think thoughtseize and Inquisition are bad per say, but the ability to make your opponent waste a turn playing into a mana leak is 10x more valuable than getting rid of a card in your opponent's hand.
The main caveat here, is that I do think thoughtseize / inquisition are good when used in conjunction with other lock pieces like Chalice of the Void and sideboard extraction effects. They're also still pretty good turn 1 when you often don't want to do anything else, but either way, I still maintain Mana leak is 10x better than discard effects in dedicated control strategies.
Heck, if the Zoo player kept a hand of Nacatl, Goyf, Goyf, Pridemage, Path to Exile, and two lands and topdecked a Bolt, targeted discard really did slow the Zoo player down.
Targeted discard become popular back when players may not have been able to take that many hits from a 1-mana beatstick, especially when it was followed up by more 1-mana beatsticks or a 2-mana beatstick.
What counterspells are you talking about then? Mana Leak? It's basically mana leak or go home. All the other counters are either too expensive or highly conditional. I would never cut targeted discard for Mana Leak.
Spell Snare is good in some matchups, but terrible in the other half and Mana Leak only stops Storm the first three turns of the game. Then, you've only countered the first ritual they played on any given turn, and they're still free to go off the next. What you needed to hit was the Grapeshot or Empty the Warrens. Against Tron, I'd call it even, although you can screw them worse with a turn one discard if you strip a turn 1 play, like Lectyrs said. Against Splinter Twin (not so relevant anymore) counterspells are far worse.
You're playing mana leak the wrong way. Very rarely do you counter their first ritual. You basically need to keep them off six mana (to prevent past in flames flashback).
So you can either wait for them to get to 7 mana, leak their past in flames, in which it's either countered, or they can pay for it and have nothing happen, since they then cant pay mana to flash their spells back.
By doing this, you essentially 4 for 1 them, which you can't do with discard.
And even if they can play around it late-game, they'll also just re-draw into more combo pieces when you discard anything with seize or inquisition. Not to mention they couldn't give a crap if past in flames is in their yard. Besides, once you get to 4 mana in teachings, you start grabbing other cards that ARE relevant late game such as cryptic command, and surgical extraction (if maindeck).
I suppose I'm not a master at Modern, and I can see how Mana Leak on the second ritual can 2 for 1 them, but you sound to me like you're only playing against Storm when they only manage to go off using Past in Flames. I can't tell you how many times I've been KO'd on turn 2 by Empty the Warrens. It almost made me want to run Spell Snare.
I don't see how letting them fire off multiple rituals is going to work when your only defense is Mana Leak. The majority of kills they get on me is chaining cantrips into Grapeshot or the loveable turn 2 Empty the Warrens. I think I've lost to Past in Flames a few times, but the mana cost you mention makes that more of a last-ditch effort. A single Teachings at that point just turns into Cryptic Command and then Surgical Extraction he next turn.
But hey, maybe I'm approaching that matchup completely wrong...
It depends on the situation realistically. I mean, don't get me wrong, I've leaked their first ritual quite a few times, but generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that they'll try to PIF into the grapeshot win. It's also dependent on what else is in my hand. I've encountered only a few storm decks that are even playing Empty the Warrens mainboard these days, and I don't see a ton from the board either. That being said, this is from non-teachings decks, and I typically have better answers for empty the warrens in those decks.
That's interesting. I tried to look at current Storm lists and there hasn't been one 3-1 in a Daily for at least a week. It seems they all transitioned to Storm. I suppose due to the rise of the blitz decks.
That should make Teachings a lot more viable if it can focus on just stonewalling aggro.
For the record, discard accompanied with surgical extraction can end the game on the spot. Not likely to happen if you're only running one surgical extraction, but I have done it before. Counterspells can do the same thing, though. Assuming you've gotten to turn 4 to cast teachings and they haven't gone off, you have the game in the bag because you can get whatever you need to stop them at that point whether it be a mindbreak trap or a surgical extraction.
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...meh.