Just finished the match-up analysis portion. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for it, namely tron. Hopefully we'll have it as the primer again soon.
Playing some vendilion cliques is pretty helpful against liliana, just to be able to flash in a beater that can evade over the other jund monsters.
The tron matchup should be OK for teachings if you play the MD surgical extraction, maximum cryptics and tectonic edges MD/SB. Its not too hard to dismantle them. My only note would be it seems like no teachings decks has a real "beatdown" plan against these slow decks with minimal removal. I wouldnt mind finks/cliques/etc coming in and just attacking tron to death with counterspell//tecedge backup.
Anybody have a good match up analysis for tron? I've never actually played against it with this deck before, and I really have no clue what this deck would best employ against tron.
I think Commandeer out of the SB would be a hilarious response to Karn; and well worth the card disadvantage.
I think Commandeer out of the SB would be a hilarious response to Karn; and well worth the card disadvantage.
"i'll be taking that."
I've actually found volition reigns to be a playable card in standard in various forms of control. It's way too costly here, but it would be pretty sick to use on something like karn or wurmcoil engine...or even ulamog lol.
I just started playing modern and have a question about finishers. I feel like through testing I can stall the board until both players are in top deck mode and I eventually get bolted out or something stupid like that. What is the consensus on finishers currently? The games just seem to take way too long and I'm unable to finish them off. I've tested Geist of Saint Traft and he's been pretty good but other than that not a huge fan of White Sun Zenith and Creeping Tarpits as the win cons. Also are there any teaching lists other than the Worlds lists and GP Columbus (i think)?
I just started playing modern and have a question about finishers. I feel like through testing I can stall the board until both players are in top deck mode and I eventually get bolted out or something stupid like that. What is the consensus on finishers currently? The games just seem to take way too long and I'm unable to finish them off. I've tested Geist of Saint Traft and he's been pretty good but other than that not a huge fan of White Sun Zenith and Creeping Tarpits as the win cons. Also are there any teaching lists other than the Worlds lists and GP Columbus (i think)?
I prefer the finishers that regain you life, like wurmcoil engine and baneslayer angel. That way you don't get ground down by lightning bolts or singleton delvers or something like that as easily. Geist of saint traft is nice from an efficiency standpoint, but he's easy to chump block and stop and a lot of decks are aggro in this format (which is why I think he should be a sideboard finisher for decks that don't run creatures). I think it's safe to say wurmcoil is most people's finisher of choice for this reason. If your opponent doesn't have a path for it, they'll lose, and even if they do, if you're playing the deck right, a counterspell can still deny your opponent the win. Not that the games are supposed to be way too long, but this deck will usually have long games. Such is the nature of playing control.
Figured I'd post up my list for critique, at the minute I"m considering cutting rune snag, to replace with some form of deprives, another snapcaster mage and another thoughtseize. Maybe the last path but I really don't like it.
Figured I'd post up my list for critique, at the minute I"m considering cutting rune snag, to replace with some form of deprives, another snapcaster mage and another thoughtseize. Maybe the last path but I really don't like it.
Going from this list; I goldfished it a bit, the mana is really good and very very kind to your Life-Total. I'd check it out.
I like your Pulse over Rest for the Weary, maybe. Although i think 1 Rest + 1 Snapcaster on Rest is enough to run RDW out of threats, but, hey, when it isn't pulse will be an All-Star.
I think fitting a 4th path somewhere will be good, I mean, it's the reason you're running White. It and esper charm, anyways. You should just do 4x Thoughtseize and not bother with IoK; most of the things that'll be hard to deal with are 4+ CC. Most of your removal takes care of Goyf, Delver and those type of things (and you have a LOT of removal); Hard stuff includes Thrun, BBE, Wurmcoil from the Trons, Emrakul (hopefully you follow it up with Extraction), and Karn. [Notice how most of these are from the various Tron MUs? That MU is awful unless you get the right stuff. One of the ingredients of stealing a win is usually Thoughtseize]
I'd add another path to exile if you can. Also, victim of the night seems okay, but it's double black. Personally, I think I'd go with doomblade or gofer over victim of the night for that reason.
So I'm interested in this deck as my first serious Modern deck. I understand it's a very skill intensive deck, but learning how to play it well and efficiently I figure in turn will increase my skill level as a player.
I have a couple questions about this deck as I try to delve into it, and play it and learn it.
1. Could you consider this deck as this shell, then with singletons or more as needed by the meta?
2. Is the proper play in this deck generally to answer threats as they come your way with the toolbox nature of the deck, or do you want to answer threats as they become more relevant?
I would not consider that the core. The Esper core is probably closer to 2 Tiago 3 Teachings 4 Esper Charm 3 PtE. A lot of people like 3 Teachings instead of 4 because it's a clunky 4-mana spell and it can search for itself. Also, if you run a mix of removal spells, 3 PtE is acceptable. Additionally, if you run other finishers like Teferi or V. Clique, you don't need the full 4 Tiagos.
I'd generally answer the dangerous threats immediately and the less dangerous stuff later. For example, I'd immediately answer Bob and Turn 1 Delver. I'd boot Melira in response to Finks if there's also a Viscera Seer out. However, unless I have Spell Snare in hand, I likely wouldn't immediately answer Melira and save her for the Consume the Meek because 2/2 bears aren't that threatening.
You practically have to drain Rune Snags and Mana Leaks on remotely dangerous stuff, though. That's the nature of tempo counters--use them now or forever leave them rotting in hand.
so I was thinking of cutting rune snag, going to a 3/2 or even 4/1 split of thoughtseize and IoK. Adding a 3rd tiago then maybe going 2 deprive or negate. Thoughts anyone? The list deals with creatures well enough as is why not play to that strength and just not bother mucking around with soft counters.
so I was thinking of cutting rune snag, going to a 3/2 or even 4/1 split of thoughtseize and IoK. Adding a 3rd tiago then maybe going 2 deprive or negate. Thoughts anyone? The list deals with creatures well enough as is why not play to that strength and just not bother mucking around with soft counters.
I dislike Deprive; returning lands to your hand is bad, at nearly every point in the game. Early game you generally never want to stutter on your land drops. You want to get to 4 mana because that's when your deck starts working the way it was meant to; digging up instant speed answers. 4 and 5 mana is also where your Wrath-effects get turned on. This is also the magical point in time where certain decks have your life total at a precarious position. Later in the game you want to be able to drop more Kitty tokens, or have mana up next to your Teferi or V. Clique in order to defend them or end the game faster or get more tokens to block with.
I don't see how at any point in time it wouldn't be completely disastrous or very advantageous for your opponent for you to miss a land-drop or rather take one back. Deprive probably isn't good for this deck.
I'd go with a Negate and Spell Pierce in those extra 2 flex slots over the Deprive. You said it yourself, you deal well against creatures, might as well add in some resilience against all other spells. Negate and Spell Pierce cover those.
There were a couple things I found unnerving about the CFB list: their lack of general answers, River of Tears, and the lack of a hard removal piece. Therefore, I added a full countersuite, and the singleton Go for the Throat. Furthermore, I added for diversity a Negate and an Essence Scatter to be tutored up when needed, as a proper hard counter.
I'm considering going up to 4 Tiagos, just because I like the ability for redundancy, and trying to fit a singleton Disfigure in, to have a curve in my removal.
Playing the deck is the hardest part, but I think having my own build is helping a bit. I'm pretty excited to start to get going playing this deck right.
I dislike Deprive; returning lands to your hand is bad, at nearly every point in the game. Early game you generally never want to stutter on your land drops. You want to get to 4 mana because that's when your deck starts working the way it was meant to; digging up instant speed answers. 4 and 5 mana is also where your Wrath-effects get turned on. This is also the magical point in time where certain decks have your life total at a precarious position. Later in the game you want to be able to drop more Kitty tokens, or have mana up next to your Teferi or V. Clique in order to defend them or end the game faster or get more tokens to block with.
I don't see how at any point in time it wouldn't be completely disastrous or very advantageous for your opponent for you to miss a land-drop or rather take one back. Deprive probably isn't good for this deck.
I'd go with a Negate and Spell Pierce in those extra 2 flex slots over the Deprive. You said it yourself, you deal well against creatures, might as well add in some resilience against all other spells. Negate and Spell Pierce cover those.
Yeah I hate deprive myself, its just the only 2 mana NO spell in the format, I figured I"d be able to tutor it late game against blue decks.
I think I'm going to test 2 or 3 negates, maybe even 4. Maybe adding in another wrath effect, the deck can just die to geist some days.
Yeah I hate deprive myself, its just the only 2 mana NO spell in the format, I figured I"d be able to tutor it late game against blue decks.
I think I'm going to test 2 or 3 negates, maybe even 4. Maybe adding in another wrath effect, the deck can just die to geist some days.
I'd suggest a Geth's Verdict somewhere in the 75. It seems pretty strong. Snappy used as a 2 mana surprise removal spell for Geist doesn't seem bad either. Nor does Finks from the board.
I'd suggest a Geth's Verdict somewhere in the 75. It seems pretty strong. Snappy used as a 2 mana surprise removal spell for Geist doesn't seem bad either. Nor does Finks from the board.
I run a Geth's main. the fact is that is usually a teachings target so is coming down t5 at best, by then a player with geist will have more than one creature out.
Any deck with geist will have dead removal sitting in their hand anyway flashing in snappy isn't great, usually eats some form of removal.
I'm not sure if its the right move I think I'm going to test 4 damnations main. Negate seems good, and I like 4 path.
How does everyone feel about a Noxious Revival single-ton? It can be tutored for and basically makes mystical teachings tutor for just about any target in the graveyard as well as give a second chance to our bombs should they get removed/discarded by some mishap.
How does everyone feel about a Noxious Revival single-ton? It can be tutored for and basically makes mystical teachings tutor for just about any target in the graveyard as well as give a second chance to our bombs should they get removed/discarded by some mishap.
Snapcaster mage seems superior in that slot, revival is card disadvantage.
The more I play this deck the more I like Geist of St. Traft MB as a 2 of. I know everyone is going to say that he's weak in the aggro matchup but I don't see it. I've been testing against rg tron, delver, jund and affinity. He dodges removal that would eat up any removal spell everyone is running and he's cheap. Also I'm not running hand disruption at all. What are people's thoughts on running discard or not. I don't miss it at all. Except Esper Charm is good to put Jund in top deck mode and take over from there.
The more I play this deck the more I like Geist of St. Traft MB as a 2 of. I know everyone is going to say that he's weak in the aggro matchup but I don't see it.
Well, if you have plenty of removal then there really isn't much worry about the aggro. Your opponent will be more hesitant to swing at you as well with one on the board. I think he's definitely a worthwhile addition to the MB in some situations.
As for discard: preemptively getting certain threats out of your opponents hand is almost always the best way of dealing with said threats. For example, let's say your opponent holds on to a single kitchen for late game. After you think you've maybe stabilized, they get their 6th land drop and cast kitchen finks. At this point, mana leak is pretty useless, and most black removal really doesn't help that much. Instead, you could have just played a turn 1 IoK and gotten rid of it before your opponent even considered to play it. A card for a card is pretty ideal for this deck when we have things like esper charm and mystical teachings to get what we need anyway. As a control deck, hand disruption is even pretty good once you get into late game because people will hold on to your cards against you to ensure nothing critical gets countered or removed...unlike Jund where a late-game hand disruption spell is usually pretty worthless since you've probably already exhausted your opponent's hand anyway.
Speaking of Jund, putting Jund into top deck mode via esper charm usually isn't too ideal. Jund tries to put both players into top-deck mode then works its way out of it through sheer force like with goyf, bob, or bloodbraid elf. So really, it's best to use your esper charms to combat their hand disruption as opposed to trying to put them into top deck mode. Jund doesn't really care if it's in top deck mode most of the time, especially against a slow deck like ours. Besides, if you put them into top deck mode, they will likely resort to manlands to kill you. Though they aren't too hard to remove, Jund has plenty, and they may have gotten your spot removal from your hand with their own hand disruption as well.
tl;dr - Using your esper charms for an instant speed mind rot is almost never ideal. Maybe in very few cases, but I certainly don't do it very often.
haha yes they are bad with PtE. I've been running Spell Snare as a 3 of and a singleton Pact of Negation. I run a much more removal heavy build over counters and discard. Add to your list Spell Pierce.
haha yes they are bad with PtE. I've been running Spell Snare as a 3 of and a singleton Pact of Negation. I run a much more removal heavy build over counters and discard. Add to your list Spell Pierce.
I think the deck has been leaning this way since UR combo variants have declined in popularity a bit.
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The tron matchup should be OK for teachings if you play the MD surgical extraction, maximum cryptics and tectonic edges MD/SB. Its not too hard to dismantle them. My only note would be it seems like no teachings decks has a real "beatdown" plan against these slow decks with minimal removal. I wouldnt mind finks/cliques/etc coming in and just attacking tron to death with counterspell//tecedge backup.
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I think Commandeer out of the SB would be a hilarious response to Karn; and well worth the card disadvantage.
"i'll be taking that."
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I've actually found volition reigns to be a playable card in standard in various forms of control. It's way too costly here, but it would be pretty sick to use on something like karn or wurmcoil engine...or even ulamog lol.
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I prefer the finishers that regain you life, like wurmcoil engine and baneslayer angel. That way you don't get ground down by lightning bolts or singleton delvers or something like that as easily. Geist of saint traft is nice from an efficiency standpoint, but he's easy to chump block and stop and a lot of decks are aggro in this format (which is why I think he should be a sideboard finisher for decks that don't run creatures). I think it's safe to say wurmcoil is most people's finisher of choice for this reason. If your opponent doesn't have a path for it, they'll lose, and even if they do, if you're playing the deck right, a counterspell can still deny your opponent the win. Not that the games are supposed to be way too long, but this deck will usually have long games. Such is the nature of playing control.
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4 Esper Charm
4 Rune Snag
2 Cryptic Command
3 Path to Exile
4 Mystical Teachings
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Consume the Meek
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Victim of Night
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Dismember
1 Sudden Death
1 Geth's Verdict
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fetid Heath
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Watery Grave
1 Mystic Gate
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Figured I'd post up my list for critique, at the minute I"m considering cutting rune snag, to replace with some form of deprives, another snapcaster mage and another thoughtseize. Maybe the last path but I really don't like it.
http://www.channelfireball.com/home/gp-columbus-tournament-report-13th-building-the-purrfect-modern-deck/
Going from this list; I goldfished it a bit, the mana is really good and very very kind to your Life-Total. I'd check it out.
I like your Pulse over Rest for the Weary, maybe. Although i think 1 Rest + 1 Snapcaster on Rest is enough to run RDW out of threats, but, hey, when it isn't pulse will be an All-Star.
I think fitting a 4th path somewhere will be good, I mean, it's the reason you're running White. It and esper charm, anyways. You should just do 4x Thoughtseize and not bother with IoK; most of the things that'll be hard to deal with are 4+ CC. Most of your removal takes care of Goyf, Delver and those type of things (and you have a LOT of removal); Hard stuff includes Thrun, BBE, Wurmcoil from the Trons, Emrakul (hopefully you follow it up with Extraction), and Karn. [Notice how most of these are from the various Tron MUs? That MU is awful unless you get the right stuff. One of the ingredients of stealing a win is usually Thoughtseize]
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I have a couple questions about this deck as I try to delve into it, and play it and learn it.
1. Could you consider this deck as this shell, then with singletons or more as needed by the meta?
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Esper Charm
4 Path to Exile
2. Is the proper play in this deck generally to answer threats as they come your way with the toolbox nature of the deck, or do you want to answer threats as they become more relevant?
I'd generally answer the dangerous threats immediately and the less dangerous stuff later. For example, I'd immediately answer Bob and Turn 1 Delver. I'd boot Melira in response to Finks if there's also a Viscera Seer out. However, unless I have Spell Snare in hand, I likely wouldn't immediately answer Melira and save her for the Consume the Meek because 2/2 bears aren't that threatening.
You practically have to drain Rune Snags and Mana Leaks on remotely dangerous stuff, though. That's the nature of tempo counters--use them now or forever leave them rotting in hand.
I dislike Deprive; returning lands to your hand is bad, at nearly every point in the game. Early game you generally never want to stutter on your land drops. You want to get to 4 mana because that's when your deck starts working the way it was meant to; digging up instant speed answers. 4 and 5 mana is also where your Wrath-effects get turned on. This is also the magical point in time where certain decks have your life total at a precarious position. Later in the game you want to be able to drop more Kitty tokens, or have mana up next to your Teferi or V. Clique in order to defend them or end the game faster or get more tokens to block with.
I don't see how at any point in time it wouldn't be completely disastrous or very advantageous for your opponent for you to miss a land-drop or rather take one back. Deprive probably isn't good for this deck.
I'd go with a Negate and Spell Pierce in those extra 2 flex slots over the Deprive. You said it yourself, you deal well against creatures, might as well add in some resilience against all other spells. Negate and Spell Pierce cover those.
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3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Instants - 26
4 Mystical Teachings
4 Path to Exile
1 Consume the Meek
4 Esper Charm
3 Rune Snag
2 Mana Leak
1 Essence Scatter
1 Negate
1 Cryptic Command
1 Slaughter Pact
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Go for the Throat
1 Sudden Death
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Damnation
3 Thoughtseize
Lands - 25
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Watery Grave
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
2 Mystic Gate
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Seachrome Coast
1 Darkslick Shores
There were a couple things I found unnerving about the CFB list: their lack of general answers, River of Tears, and the lack of a hard removal piece. Therefore, I added a full countersuite, and the singleton Go for the Throat. Furthermore, I added for diversity a Negate and an Essence Scatter to be tutored up when needed, as a proper hard counter.
I'm considering going up to 4 Tiagos, just because I like the ability for redundancy, and trying to fit a singleton Disfigure in, to have a curve in my removal.
Playing the deck is the hardest part, but I think having my own build is helping a bit. I'm pretty excited to start to get going playing this deck right.
Yeah I hate deprive myself, its just the only 2 mana NO spell in the format, I figured I"d be able to tutor it late game against blue decks.
I think I'm going to test 2 or 3 negates, maybe even 4. Maybe adding in another wrath effect, the deck can just die to geist some days.
I'd suggest a Geth's Verdict somewhere in the 75. It seems pretty strong. Snappy used as a 2 mana surprise removal spell for Geist doesn't seem bad either. Nor does Finks from the board.
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I run a Geth's main. the fact is that is usually a teachings target so is coming down t5 at best, by then a player with geist will have more than one creature out.
Any deck with geist will have dead removal sitting in their hand anyway flashing in snappy isn't great, usually eats some form of removal.
I'm not sure if its the right move I think I'm going to test 4 damnations main. Negate seems good, and I like 4 path.
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Snapcaster mage seems superior in that slot, revival is card disadvantage.
Well, if you have plenty of removal then there really isn't much worry about the aggro. Your opponent will be more hesitant to swing at you as well with one on the board. I think he's definitely a worthwhile addition to the MB in some situations.
As for discard: preemptively getting certain threats out of your opponents hand is almost always the best way of dealing with said threats. For example, let's say your opponent holds on to a single kitchen for late game. After you think you've maybe stabilized, they get their 6th land drop and cast kitchen finks. At this point, mana leak is pretty useless, and most black removal really doesn't help that much. Instead, you could have just played a turn 1 IoK and gotten rid of it before your opponent even considered to play it. A card for a card is pretty ideal for this deck when we have things like esper charm and mystical teachings to get what we need anyway. As a control deck, hand disruption is even pretty good once you get into late game because people will hold on to your cards against you to ensure nothing critical gets countered or removed...unlike Jund where a late-game hand disruption spell is usually pretty worthless since you've probably already exhausted your opponent's hand anyway.
Speaking of Jund, putting Jund into top deck mode via esper charm usually isn't too ideal. Jund tries to put both players into top-deck mode then works its way out of it through sheer force like with goyf, bob, or bloodbraid elf. So really, it's best to use your esper charms to combat their hand disruption as opposed to trying to put them into top deck mode. Jund doesn't really care if it's in top deck mode most of the time, especially against a slow deck like ours. Besides, if you put them into top deck mode, they will likely resort to manlands to kill you. Though they aren't too hard to remove, Jund has plenty, and they may have gotten your spot removal from your hand with their own hand disruption as well.
tl;dr - Using your esper charms for an instant speed mind rot is almost never ideal. Maybe in very few cases, but I certainly don't do it very often.
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That being said, if you're running a full playset of path to exile, I'd highly recommend you use something besides one of those counterspells.
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I think the deck has been leaning this way since UR combo variants have declined in popularity a bit.
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