I have been thinking that you need to leverage the typically considered "bad" black ability to search the opponent's library for cards and exile them in order to fight Tron. You should be able to delay them with counterspells long enough to cast a card which lets you get the Emrakul out of their deck/hand.
I have been thinking that you need to leverage the typically considered "bad" black ability to search the opponent's library for cards and exile them in order to fight Tron. You should be able to delay them with counterspells long enough to cast a card which lets you get the Emrakul out of their deck/hand.
True. Memoricide effects work. But we can't even tutor for any of them (I'm pretty sure they're all sorcery speed, but correct me if I'm mistaken), and running more than 1 or 2 in the sideboard would take up a lot of space in the sideboard which should usually be pretty versatile given our main card, mystical teachings. It's definitely an idea worth trying, though, especially if you have a lot of tron in your meta. Its also strong against combo decks, too. I'm just not sure if it'll still be sufficient to actually give us a good matchup against tron.
So I'm debating building this for fnm when modern events start. I was wondering what decks esper is weak to?
This is like a 45/55 deck. It doesn't have that many good or bad match ups. It has cards to answer most decks, but it can struggle to find those answers. These are the bad match ups:
R/g tron is probably a 10/90 match up. This deck has a very hard time dealing with karn and obviously emrakul. Teachings doesn't run any ghost quarters or tec edges to slow down tron. And it puts on a super slow clock giving them ample time to set up emrakul.
Jund is probably a 40/60 match up. Deathrite is pretty good against this deck, and they play 6 man lands which stretch our removal suite.
I'd say storm is probably the most favorable match up at 55/45. All your cards interact with them post board. You have multiple answers to empty, goblin electromancer, and counters/surgical to screw up their combo. The good storm lists only run 17 lands, so mana leak is very good against them.
I'm guessing martyr proc could be an issue because of how much life they gain but Idk.
Martyr proc isn't that bad, you have 4-5 wraths against them and excellent spot removal against them. Also esper charm blows up rest in peace, honor of the pure and other enchantments they play. Also if you run blue sun's zenith you don't have to worry if they gained 100 life. The life gain deck that's hard to beat are the ones the run emeria, the sky ruin. It is very hard to grind them out even when you chain teachings together.
So what does an up-to-date list look like? I played the deck a lot a couple of months ago, but stopped to try out some other stuff. I thought I'd pick it up again, but since the meta has changed a lot since then, I wanted to know if anyone would post an updated list?
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So what does an up-to-date list look like? I played the deck a lot a couple of months ago, but stopped to try out some other stuff. I thought I'd pick it up again, but since the meta has changed a lot since then, I wanted to know if anyone would post an updated list?
There's a list up of the page that 4-0'd the daily's a week or so ago. I'll go ahead and post it up in the primer.
Edit: I put it under the sample decklists section with the date.
Jund and tron are the worst match ups. Jund is just inherently potent against us. Tron just plays stuff that we have a really tough time dealing with...like emrakul.
This deck can be built to beat Jund, but there really isn't much this deck can do against tron.
What about Hide/Seek against Tron? Searching for Emrakul and gaining 15 life for 2 mana seems pretty strong vs them. Hide would be dead but you'd only be using it for Emrakul anyway
What about Hide/Seek against Tron? Searching for Emrakul and gaining 15 life for 2 mana seems pretty strong vs them. Hide would be dead but you'd only be using it for Emrakul anyway
gaining life is not relevant vs tron
what else is hide/seek good against? you'd only side it in vs r/g tron, and it's not that good vs tron since you still have to beat karns and wurmcoils, and it's not good vs u/w tron either
also there's bribery, and Gather Specimens as anti tron cards, those cards are also good vs gifts decks
what else is hide/seek good against? you'd only side it in vs r/g tron, and it's not that good vs tron since you still have to beat karns and wurmcoils, and it's not good vs u/w tron either
also there's bribery, and Gather Specimens as anti tron cards, those cards are also good vs gifts decks
But then, they would immediatly use karn to kill it.
But idk, hide and seek might be good in a developed meta, as most lists just run 1 karn
Actually, hide/seek looks like it could be a good option against tron considering most lists only run one emrakul and we can tutor for it with teachings. Though the lifegain is indeed irrelevant, ridding their deck of emrakul is always a good thing for us.
Actually, hide/seek looks like it could be a good option against tron considering most lists only run one emrakul and we can tutor for it with teachings. Though the lifegain is indeed irrelevant, ridding their deck of emrakul is always a good thing for us.
This was my logic. I figure the counters can handle most of the work against their threats. Emrakul is a nightmare against control because of its inevitability. This would give esper a much better chance in the late game.
It's a very narrow card. You'd only bring it in vs r/g tron and depending on the board state it doesn't give you a huge % chance to win. I'd rather play something like mindbreak trap, which removes emrakul on the stack for 4 mana, but they get an extra turn. Mindbreak trap counters karn in a pinch and it's amazing vs storm.
sadistic sacrament. Resolving it essentially beats tron. Also good against eggs, gifts deck)if it resolves), storm, twin, scapeshift. really anything combo/control.
Your welcome.:)
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I gotta say, with deathrite shaman around, I really feel if you wanted to play teachings, you're better off playing Grixis than esper.
Path to exile is downright awful against deathrite shaman, and not all that great against Dark Confidant or Bloodbraid Elf either. Lightning Bolt / Terminate are way better, and bolt can even help manage Liliana of the Veil in tandem with Snapcaster Mage. Path also does have some minor anti-synergy with counterspell effects, which of course is never helpful.
The main downfall is losing Esper Charm, but that doesn't make Grixis unplayable, just makes it so you need to consistently hit your teachings to ensure gaining card advantage.
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Playing red over white means you're a dog to burn decks.
Do you have a grixis list?
You can still play some answers to rdw, but if we're being realistic, nobody is playing burn right now, so I don't think that's the end of the world if you don't have a perfect MU there.
I don't have a list, but I was more just pointing that out as conjecture / meta discussion. I'm sure I could throw something together pretty quick, but it's not something I have personal experience with recently.
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You can still play some answers to rdw, but if we're being realistic, nobody is playing burn right now, so I don't think that's the end of the world if you don't have a perfect MU there.
I don't have a list, but I was more just pointing that out as conjecture / meta discussion. I'm sure I could throw something together pretty quick, but it's not something I have personal experience with recently.
You don't play on mtgo, people still play burn there, people are playing goblins now since some guy 4-0'd with it.
What life gain cards are more efficient than rest for the weary? Are there any that come close?
I was looking at the decklists in the OP, especially the most recently placing list, and there doesn't seem to be a win condition, other than GoST in the SB. Does it win with Snapcaster beats? There's also a lack of Teferi, which was the whole point of the deck I thought.
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I was looking at the decklists in the OP, especially the most recently placing list, and there doesn't seem to be a win condition, other than GoST in the SB. Does it win with Snapcaster beats? There's also a lack of Teferi, which was the whole point of the deck I thought.
There are man lands.
Teferi isn't that good in modern. Making opponents play spells at sorcery speed isn't very relevant. You don't have any creatures that you want to give flash (snapcaster already has flash).
I was looking at the decklists in the OP, especially the most recently placing list, and there doesn't seem to be a win condition, other than GoST in the SB. Does it win with Snapcaster beats? There's also a lack of Teferi, which was the whole point of the deck I thought.
Creeping Tarpit/WSZ
a 3/2 Unblockable land seems like a fine wincon or 10 2/2s
Revelation has replaced Zenith? Is this mainly due to Burn decks, I always loved the ability to recur Zenith
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You don't play on mtgo, people still play burn there, people are playing goblins now since some guy 4-0'd with it.
What life gain cards are more efficient than rest for the weary? Are there any that come close?
Izzet charm is not very exciting neither is cerebral vortex. Electrolyze is pretty sweet though.
I'd rather play with blue sun's zenith than any of those X cards.
I would start out with a list similar to this then tune it. I would prob put a bit more time into the sideboard figuring out a reliable anti-tron gameplan, whether that's through sowing salt, more slaughter games, or replacing the inquisitions with thoughtseizes. Add tar pits, 2x dreadship reef, and other standard lands and go from there. I agree that the RDW matchup takes a hit, so I put 2x Spellskite, 1x suffer the past, and 2x Sun Droplet in the board (along with flashfreeze and maindeck tribute to hunger, which is "okay" against rdw).
I would be more worried about burn than red decks based off creatures. Creatures can be dealt with pretty easily, but burn is more difficult to interact with in a teachings style deck without access to white.
Is this better than Esper? Not sure, but I do know that the removal is way better in grixis for the current meta, which seems to be pretty important right now. Resolving a cruel ultimatum is always a reliable finisher as well.
Yea Snapcaster is just at his best in Grixis. Electrolyze has proven to be killer in this format. Is serum better than think twice?
They're entirely different cards that play entirely different roles. Comparing serum visions to think twice is like comparing Jace, the Mindsculptor to Preordain. Think twice however is really slow... 5 mana to draw an extra card is pretty bad when you can spend 3 mana with esper charm to draw the same amount, and also allows you to force an opponent to discard or destroy enchantments randomly.
With everything said however, I still think teachings is an incredibly slow and inefficient card advantage engine when you can just play thirst for knowledge with a light artifact package or other general CA generators that are strictly superior and way more efficient.
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Ingenuity draws one less card, but doesn't require discard. However discarding cards isn't a big deal in this deck because of Snapcaster and built in Flashback. But you're discarding all the same, so you're putting two cards in a precarious position. Moreso post-board when all your flashing back has attracted graveyard hate.
Thoughtflare is probably easier on the manabase because you want blue and red mana early for Charm, Electrolyze, and so on. But at the same time at five mana you shouldn't have any color problems by the time you're ready to cast it. Hmm.
Also Teachings isn't a card advantage engine. It's a card selection engine. It's not about having more resources as much as having better resources. Although it does generate card advantage as well.
Ingenuity draws one less card, but doesn't require discard. However discarding cards isn't a big deal in this deck because of Snapcaster and built in Flashback. But you're discarding all the same, so you're putting two cards in a precarious position. Moreso post-board when all your flashing back has attracted graveyard hate.
Thoughtflare is probably easier on the manabase because you want blue and red mana early for Charm, Electrolyze, and so on. But at the same time at five mana you shouldn't have any color problems by the time you're ready to cast it. Hmm.
Also Teachings isn't a card advantage engine. It's a card selection engine. It's not about having more resources as much as having better resources. Although it does generate card advantage as well.
It really is slow as balls, though.
It's both, actually. You can get two cards with it for one by using its flashback cost, both of which you get to choose. That's why think twice is technically considered card advantage as well. But yes, it's very mana intensive which is part of what makes this deck so difficult to play.
Edit: er...wait, that's what you said. Never mind. Man, it's been a long day.
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True. Memoricide effects work. But we can't even tutor for any of them (I'm pretty sure they're all sorcery speed, but correct me if I'm mistaken), and running more than 1 or 2 in the sideboard would take up a lot of space in the sideboard which should usually be pretty versatile given our main card, mystical teachings. It's definitely an idea worth trying, though, especially if you have a lot of tron in your meta. Its also strong against combo decks, too. I'm just not sure if it'll still be sufficient to actually give us a good matchup against tron.
Are there any others besides Memoricide and Cranial Extraction? Also, Surgical extraction and Extirpate actually work, too, but you have to get emrakul in the yard somehow.
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This is like a 45/55 deck. It doesn't have that many good or bad match ups. It has cards to answer most decks, but it can struggle to find those answers. These are the bad match ups:
R/g tron is probably a 10/90 match up. This deck has a very hard time dealing with karn and obviously emrakul. Teachings doesn't run any ghost quarters or tec edges to slow down tron. And it puts on a super slow clock giving them ample time to set up emrakul.
Jund is probably a 40/60 match up. Deathrite is pretty good against this deck, and they play 6 man lands which stretch our removal suite.
I'd say storm is probably the most favorable match up at 55/45. All your cards interact with them post board. You have multiple answers to empty, goblin electromancer, and counters/surgical to screw up their combo. The good storm lists only run 17 lands, so mana leak is very good against them.
Martyr proc isn't that bad, you have 4-5 wraths against them and excellent spot removal against them. Also esper charm blows up rest in peace, honor of the pure and other enchantments they play. Also if you run blue sun's zenith you don't have to worry if they gained 100 life. The life gain deck that's hard to beat are the ones the run emeria, the sky ruin. It is very hard to grind them out even when you chain teachings together.
I'm running thoughtseizes now. They've been pretty awesome and have the potential for you to rip out karn/emrakul from tron.
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There's a list up of the page that 4-0'd the daily's a week or so ago. I'll go ahead and post it up in the primer.
Edit: I put it under the sample decklists section with the date.
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What about Hide/Seek against Tron? Searching for Emrakul and gaining 15 life for 2 mana seems pretty strong vs them. Hide would be dead but you'd only be using it for Emrakul anyway
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
gaining life is not relevant vs tron
what else is hide/seek good against? you'd only side it in vs r/g tron, and it's not that good vs tron since you still have to beat karns and wurmcoils, and it's not good vs u/w tron either
also there's bribery, and Gather Specimens as anti tron cards, those cards are also good vs gifts decks
But then, they would immediatly use karn to kill it.
But idk, hide and seek might be good in a developed meta, as most lists just run 1 karn
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This was my logic. I figure the counters can handle most of the work against their threats. Emrakul is a nightmare against control because of its inevitability. This would give esper a much better chance in the late game.
XXXX
Modern
URTwinRU R.I.P.
EDH
WUGRoon of the Hidden RealmWUG
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Path to exile is downright awful against deathrite shaman, and not all that great against Dark Confidant or Bloodbraid Elf either. Lightning Bolt / Terminate are way better, and bolt can even help manage Liliana of the Veil in tandem with Snapcaster Mage. Path also does have some minor anti-synergy with counterspell effects, which of course is never helpful.
The main downfall is losing Esper Charm, but that doesn't make Grixis unplayable, just makes it so you need to consistently hit your teachings to ensure gaining card advantage.
Playing red over white means you're a dog to burn decks.
Do you have a grixis list?
You can still play some answers to rdw, but if we're being realistic, nobody is playing burn right now, so I don't think that's the end of the world if you don't have a perfect MU there.
I don't have a list, but I was more just pointing that out as conjecture / meta discussion. I'm sure I could throw something together pretty quick, but it's not something I have personal experience with recently.
Plus it can finish games with storage land -> Comet Storm/Banefire/Suffer the Past/Exsanguinate/Consume Spirit.
You don't play on mtgo, people still play burn there, people are playing goblins now since some guy 4-0'd with it.
What life gain cards are more efficient than rest for the weary? Are there any that come close?
Izzet charm is not very exciting neither is cerebral vortex. Electrolyze is pretty sweet though.
I'd rather play with blue sun's zenith than any of those X cards.
EDH
WBRKaalia of the VastRBW
BChainer, Dementia MasterB
Legacy
0Manaless Dredge0
RGoblinsR
Standard
RBWThe AristocratsWBR
There are man lands.
Teferi isn't that good in modern. Making opponents play spells at sorcery speed isn't very relevant. You don't have any creatures that you want to give flash (snapcaster already has flash).
The deck is called teachings, not teferi.
Creeping Tarpit/WSZ
a 3/2 Unblockable land seems like a fine wincon or 10 2/2s
Revelation has replaced Zenith? Is this mainly due to Burn decks, I always loved the ability to recur Zenith
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I would start out with a list similar to this then tune it. I would prob put a bit more time into the sideboard figuring out a reliable anti-tron gameplan, whether that's through sowing salt, more slaughter games, or replacing the inquisitions with thoughtseizes. Add tar pits, 2x dreadship reef, and other standard lands and go from there. I agree that the RDW matchup takes a hit, so I put 2x Spellskite, 1x suffer the past, and 2x Sun Droplet in the board (along with flashfreeze and maindeck tribute to hunger, which is "okay" against rdw).
I would be more worried about burn than red decks based off creatures. Creatures can be dealt with pretty easily, but burn is more difficult to interact with in a teachings style deck without access to white.
Is this better than Esper? Not sure, but I do know that the removal is way better in grixis for the current meta, which seems to be pretty important right now. Resolving a cruel ultimatum is always a reliable finisher as well.
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Repeal
2x Terminate
2x Electrolyze
2x Tribute to Hunger
2x Izzet Charm
2x Cryptic Command
1x Consume the Meek
3x Mystical Teachings
1x Thoughtflare
1x Countersquall
2x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Serum Visions
creatures
4x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Counterflux
2x Slaughter Games
1x Countersquall
2x Spellskite
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Suffer the Past
1x Dispel
1x Rakdos Charm
1x Vandalblast
1x Flashfreeze
2x Sun Droplet
They're entirely different cards that play entirely different roles. Comparing serum visions to think twice is like comparing Jace, the Mindsculptor to Preordain. Think twice however is really slow... 5 mana to draw an extra card is pretty bad when you can spend 3 mana with esper charm to draw the same amount, and also allows you to force an opponent to discard or destroy enchantments randomly.
With everything said however, I still think teachings is an incredibly slow and inefficient card advantage engine when you can just play thirst for knowledge with a light artifact package or other general CA generators that are strictly superior and way more efficient.
Ingenuity draws one less card, but doesn't require discard. However discarding cards isn't a big deal in this deck because of Snapcaster and built in Flashback. But you're discarding all the same, so you're putting two cards in a precarious position. Moreso post-board when all your flashing back has attracted graveyard hate.
Thoughtflare is probably easier on the manabase because you want blue and red mana early for Charm, Electrolyze, and so on. But at the same time at five mana you shouldn't have any color problems by the time you're ready to cast it. Hmm.
Also Teachings isn't a card advantage engine. It's a card selection engine. It's not about having more resources as much as having better resources. Although it does generate card advantage as well.
It really is slow as balls, though.
It's both, actually. You can get two cards with it for one by using its flashback cost, both of which you get to choose. That's why think twice is technically considered card advantage as well. But yes, it's very mana intensive which is part of what makes this deck so difficult to play.
Edit: er...wait, that's what you said. Never mind. Man, it's been a long day.
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