Yes, I see it being good for Shaman, sadly I don't think bosk cheapens it.
I am not sure how many or what it would replace.
I'm pretty sure I dont care about bosk cheapinging it... It enters, then lets you spam the board (which shamans does well) giving them all a buff and 1/1 counter, meaning they trigger rage forger. This is the closest shamans gets to a 2 mana lord until they go back to lorwyn.
I agree that the Vial plan is also best plan i think with this creature. it means that our turn 1 play of Flamekin Harbinger can come in with a counter when we play this provided vial in opening hand.
Guys, Mimic might be even stronger than expected... You know those 2-3 Wolf-skull shaman hands? What happens when we don't need Shaman of the great hunt to give the wolves counters?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
MODERN: RG Shamanism RG WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
I think the true hype for this card is that it can be named as an ally if when you need Firemantle Mage triggers to happen
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I play Shaman of the Great Hunt. It is 4 drop so opponent has probably spent all his removal, also it has haste so it kinda dodges sorcery removal. It deals damage right away, we need reach at high end, also its abilities are synergistic with the deck: we have many creatures, they benefit from counters, he is a mana sink which we dont have many.
I play this and I like it very much. Might try Metallic Mimic instead of Wolf-Skull Shaman to be more aggressive and less grindy. Though the latter helps to win Junk and Jund
I am not a fan of fragile 4-drops for this deck, the only 4-drop creature that seems good is Thrun, the Last Troll for grindy match-ups and is probably a SB card as well.
Besides it doesn't get hit by CoCo which by far the best 4-cmc card option for this deck imho.
It looks like there is a lot of ways to play this deck.
How have the raging ravines treated you, Timba. I am not a fan of them simply due to coming in tapped. It is why I play Mutavaults, while not perfect also allow me to play on curve at times.
So you play wolf-skull shamans in place of creature-getting spells like Oath, Commune to Nature, Lead the Stampede, or Collected Company? I would think these spells could matter more in grindy matchups more than wolf-skull. My biggest problem with wolf skull is the lack of guaranteed wolf tokening and the fact that he is generally removed first.
I think my issue with playing 4 atarka's command is grind, but that could be solved by putting the grind in the sideboard and trying to race in the main board.
The Firemantle Mage isn't a bad choice and due to rage forger are more likely to first main phase coco. I agree that at max is a two of. I think 28 creature is barely minimum and while Rattleclaw mystic is probably the best shaman-available mana dork. I think I would prefer birds of paradise in the slot to ramp up a little faster. The more I think about beastcaller, and his creature spell only restrictions, the more I don't like.
Cunning Sparkmage is an interesting choice against infect and affinity.
If I was running Atarka's Command, I think I would try to play more of the low to the ground creatures and have the grind spells in the side to bring in with it. I am not sure 12 spells is where Shamans want to be. I think 10 is pretty maximum. You lose some utility game one with such a low creature count.
I was probably going to replace a fauna shaman or a burning-tree with a firemantle mage, but I think you might be right that it is narrow and might be better options available.
#I don't think that 28x creatures is anywhere near to a low number, it is actually very close to the max number of creatures that creature-heavy decks run.
#"Merfolk" run 26-29x, "Bant Company/Knightfall" run 27-28x, "Bant Spirits" run 29x, Abzan Company (with 7x mana dorks) run 30x and "Elves" (who play a lot of mana dorks and less lands) run 34x.
#I don't really like "Birds" here as it can't attack and has no synergy with the rest of the deck.
We don't have a 3-drop (Rage Forger) that we want to cast on turn 2 anyway.
I havent played shamans in a long time, but breaking it down, shamans power comes from Rage Forger and having lots of shamans out by turn 3/4. Realistically, thats the game plan you should be constantly streamlining to.
There are classic ways of dumping your hand, ala legacy goblins like Vial. This gives you free mana to dump even more, or to use that mana for burn (again, ala goblins in legacy). This approach would benefit if the deck used cards that were closer in mana cost than not, so everything mostly being 2 mana in this case, and allows you to cut your land count down, to fit in more creatures/burn.
Collected company is the other way to go, where instead of having top end threats, you just spit out the collected company creatures. This makes the deck want mostly 2-3 converted mana cost, and creatures with ETB effects, but forces you to also run a higher land count.
Overall, I think the collected company option is worse. This deck, again, gets its power from having as many dudes out by turn 3/4 and swinging with an active rage forger. You should at any point in time be trying to rush the opponent down. If you get clasmed, it really really sucks, but trying to be a bad version of big zoo is also generally worse.
Shamans niche is that it can dump cards. A vial on 2, can let you tap, burning tree, bosk, then 3 dudes. Thats kinda insane. Burning tree and bosk are part of the reason you can do any of that, and those cards arent great with collected company, but are with vial. So is mimic. And if we talk about the best cards that you can play in shamans its:
Thats your curve right there. Funna shaman into sideboard cards are worth mentioning, but really Id start from there, and probably do vial and go from there.
How have the raging ravines treated you, Timba. I am not a fan of them simply due to coming in tapped. It is why I play Mutavaults, while not perfect also allow me to play on curve at times.
So you play wolf-skull shamans in place of creature-getting spells like Oath, Commune to Nature, Lead the Stampede, or Collected Company? I would think these spells could matter more in grindy matchups more than wolf-skull. My biggest problem with wolf skull is the lack of guaranteed wolf tokening and the fact that he is generally removed first.
Ragins Ravines are good, they synergistic in multiple ways: plug a hole in turn 1 plays, have counters, mana sinks. With Bosk Banneret often we need colored mana.
I find Lead the Stampede and Collected Company too slow. By turn 3 I want to impact the board and pressure opponent and by turn 4 I want to try to end the game. Yes Wolf-skull Shaman doesnt pressure opponent much but Shamans arent packed with super cool stuff like Fast Zoo for example. I dont like him very much but I take him, he has upsides: shaman type and card advantage.
I didnt think about Oath and Commune to Nature. Now I feel like thats not what aggro deck wants to do, but being 1 drops they arent bad.
To be fair, I don't really play much Shaman of the Great Hunt anymore because it is a 4-drop. But I would if it wasn't. The push given by grindy hands (with Wolf-skull) were something to be scared off. With Metallic Mimic coming in, I feel like this is a situation that can happen again. Just like how the Shared Animosity version had potential a while ago, before CoCo. But yes, as some have mentioned, with most of the cards we want at 2cmc, Vial Shamans might actually overtake CoCo Shamans or at the very least rivalize it. I will be one to try it for sure.
As for Firemantle Mage, Shamans are really good at flooding the board and against other aggro deck, sometimes need a push to bypass blockers, which Firemantle does very well. It acts as a simili-Magmatic Chasm on a tribal body.
Hey guys, first time posting to the thread but I've been playing Shamans for quite some time now. Thought I might drop something that's been going through my mind for a while now and see what others think. The two biggest problems I've noticed with Shamans is obviously the early board wipes, followed closely by a wall of blockers. Now I've also noticed that 99% of lists stick to the traditional GR setup. I've been toying around with splash colors to help combat these two major issues. GRu has helped out quite a deal by offering sideboard counters to board wipes as well as access to a, albeit mediocre, shaman with evasion in Icefeather Aven. I've also tested GRb that supplies much needed removal from the sideboard that Lightning Bolt just cannot deal with, Abrupt Decay and Terminate. GRb also offers midrange ability with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and evasion from Vampire Nighthawk.
Blockers are not that big of a problem, you can kill through blockers with Rage Forger triggers.
I don't think that a third color is worth it, just throwing in Tasigur without support isn't any better than Thrun, the Last Troll (actually worse imho).
Sure, Rage Forger triggers will still ping through a wall of blockers. But if your opponent happens to be running spot removal and keeping you off of your Forgers, a problem I've run into on several occasions, then without a big butt to break through your relatively small shamans tend to sit dead in the water. With Heroic Intervention coming onto the scene I can totally concede the need for blue in the form of counters. I still believe a black splash may offer some utility not previously given thought.
Kyynu, if you look back at the original post, the deck used to be, pre-Deathrite Shaman ban, a jund deck. But the lack of a mana fixing dork makes this a more risky choice as we are, after all, a face down aggro deck.
Personally, the only reason I would consider going Jund without a DRS unban would be in a Vial build as you can forgo the heavy colored cost of our best black options on the creatures. (Such as Batman.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Decks:
MODERN: RG Shamanism RG WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
I am really surprised that you didn't put "Sachi, Daughter of Sechiro" in the deck. Is broken, and you did not even consider it an option! Is it banned or something?
Sachi is best used as a commander in a all green shaman tribal commander or as one of the 99 in a snake deck.
The problem with Sachi here is that we don't have the pay off cards to make her work. What is the big deal with all that mana? We can't reliably cast anything that large. We aren't elves where nearly everything is a mana producer. Even Elves have to really work to be able to use Ezuri or cast Chord of Calling or use Westvale Abbey.
Shamans would get a lot better if DRS would be unbanned, but other decks would profit more from it. Even Elves would use DRS probably better than Shamans.
So i bought some cards like Thrun, Atarka's Command, and Oath of Nissa along with Metallic Mimic, Cunning Sparkmage, and Loaming Shaman. I am ready to Forge my Rage into SHAMANS along side Slivers. I am putting down werewolves for now.
Shamans in my mind is an aggro-combo deck. One of the closest similar to our archetype is Bushwhacker Zoo for the effects, but also Elves for the Go Wide tribal strategy. Shamans unlike Zoo is slower, but can grind better especially depending on how you build.
I am going to try Metallic Mimic as the second lord for Shamans. I am going to look at 2 different decks. One with Atarka's command that is more about going more aggro and closer to Zoo. While I will use Oath of Nissa in attempt to go more combo and toolkit and closer to Elves.
Shamans can also be made fairly easily within budget. You don't need Vials, Caverns, Mutavaults, or Fetchlands. I simple mana base of Forest, Mountain, Copperline Gorge (at least when cheaper) or Rootbound Crag maybe with any of the dual lands from Shadows/BFZ could also be used.
Note: Aggro version could also use Experiment One. However, I don't possess Experiment One.
I'm pretty sure I dont care about bosk cheapinging it... It enters, then lets you spam the board (which shamans does well) giving them all a buff and 1/1 counter, meaning they trigger rage forger. This is the closest shamans gets to a 2 mana lord until they go back to lorwyn.
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
1 Mountain
Creatures
4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Bosk Banneret
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Rage Forger
2 Burning-Tree Shamans
1 Eternal Witness
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Aether VIal
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Collected Company
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
2 Collected Company
1 Stigma Lasher
2 Dismember
2 Essence Warden
2 Loaming Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
Something like this?
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
The first is rather narrow in use and the the second is 4-cmc that dies to anything.
I think that Metallic Mimic is a solid replacement for Wolf-Skull Shaman.
Here is the list I would go with:
4x Flamekin Harbinger
4x Bosk Banneret
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Rattleclaw Mystic
4x Metallic Mimic
4x Rage Forger
Instant (12)
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Atarka's Command
4x Collected Company
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Stomping Ground
4x Copperline Gorge
2x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Essence Warden
2x Flame Slash
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Wolf-Skull Shaman
2x Loaming Shaman
2x Reclamation Sage
2x Burning-Tree Shaman
I play this and I like it very much. Might try Metallic Mimic instead of Wolf-Skull Shaman to be more aggressive and less grindy. Though the latter helps to win Junk and Jund
4x Bosk Banneret
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
2x Burning-Tree Shaman
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Eternal Witness
3x Experiment One
4x Flamekin Harbinger
4x Rage Forger
2x Shaman of the Great Hunt
4x Wolf-Skull Shaman
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Copperline Gorge
3x Forest
2x Mountain
2x Raging Ravine
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (6)
2x Atarka's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Cunning Sparkmage
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Dismember
2x Essence Warden
3x Goblin Ruinblaster
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Relic of Progenitus
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
I am not a fan of fragile 4-drops for this deck, the only 4-drop creature that seems good is Thrun, the Last Troll for grindy match-ups and is probably a SB card as well.
Besides it doesn't get hit by CoCo which by far the best 4-cmc card option for this deck imho.
How have the raging ravines treated you, Timba. I am not a fan of them simply due to coming in tapped. It is why I play Mutavaults, while not perfect also allow me to play on curve at times.
So you play wolf-skull shamans in place of creature-getting spells like Oath, Commune to Nature, Lead the Stampede, or Collected Company? I would think these spells could matter more in grindy matchups more than wolf-skull. My biggest problem with wolf skull is the lack of guaranteed wolf tokening and the fact that he is generally removed first.
I think my issue with playing 4 atarka's command is grind, but that could be solved by putting the grind in the sideboard and trying to race in the main board.
The Firemantle Mage isn't a bad choice and due to rage forger are more likely to first main phase coco. I agree that at max is a two of. I think 28 creature is barely minimum and while Rattleclaw mystic is probably the best shaman-available mana dork. I think I would prefer birds of paradise in the slot to ramp up a little faster. The more I think about beastcaller, and his creature spell only restrictions, the more I don't like.
Cunning Sparkmage is an interesting choice against infect and affinity.
If I was running Atarka's Command, I think I would try to play more of the low to the ground creatures and have the grind spells in the side to bring in with it. I am not sure 12 spells is where Shamans want to be. I think 10 is pretty maximum. You lose some utility game one with such a low creature count.
I was probably going to replace a fauna shaman or a burning-tree with a firemantle mage, but I think you might be right that it is narrow and might be better options available.
What do you think of my vial list and sideboard?
#"Merfolk" run 26-29x, "Bant Company/Knightfall" run 27-28x, "Bant Spirits" run 29x, Abzan Company (with 7x mana dorks) run 30x and "Elves" (who play a lot of mana dorks and less lands) run 34x.
#I don't really like "Birds" here as it can't attack and has no synergy with the rest of the deck.
We don't have a 3-drop (Rage Forger) that we want to cast on turn 2 anyway.
#Rattleclaw Mystic gets discounted by Bosk Banneret, can be cast off Burning-Tree Emissary, gets a counter from Rage Forger/Metallic Mimic (on shaman) and can still enable a turn 3 CoCo.
There are classic ways of dumping your hand, ala legacy goblins like Vial. This gives you free mana to dump even more, or to use that mana for burn (again, ala goblins in legacy). This approach would benefit if the deck used cards that were closer in mana cost than not, so everything mostly being 2 mana in this case, and allows you to cut your land count down, to fit in more creatures/burn.
Collected company is the other way to go, where instead of having top end threats, you just spit out the collected company creatures. This makes the deck want mostly 2-3 converted mana cost, and creatures with ETB effects, but forces you to also run a higher land count.
Overall, I think the collected company option is worse. This deck, again, gets its power from having as many dudes out by turn 3/4 and swinging with an active rage forger. You should at any point in time be trying to rush the opponent down. If you get clasmed, it really really sucks, but trying to be a bad version of big zoo is also generally worse.
Shamans niche is that it can dump cards. A vial on 2, can let you tap, burning tree, bosk, then 3 dudes. Thats kinda insane. Burning tree and bosk are part of the reason you can do any of that, and those cards arent great with collected company, but are with vial. So is mimic. And if we talk about the best cards that you can play in shamans its:
Thats your curve right there. Funna shaman into sideboard cards are worth mentioning, but really Id start from there, and probably do vial and go from there.
2 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
1 Mountain
Spells
4 aether vial
4 lightning bolt
4 atarka's command
4 elvish visionary
4 bosk banneret
4 burning-tree emissary
4 metallic mimic
4 wolf-skull Shaman
4 rageforger
3 Essence warden
3 loaming shaman
2 dismember
3 goblin ruinblaster
1 thrun, the last Troll
3 lead the stampede
I find Lead the Stampede and Collected Company too slow. By turn 3 I want to impact the board and pressure opponent and by turn 4 I want to try to end the game. Yes Wolf-skull Shaman doesnt pressure opponent much but Shamans arent packed with super cool stuff like Fast Zoo for example. I dont like him very much but I take him, he has upsides: shaman type and card advantage.
I didnt think about Oath and Commune to Nature. Now I feel like thats not what aggro deck wants to do, but being 1 drops they arent bad.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
To be fair, I don't really play much Shaman of the Great Hunt anymore because it is a 4-drop. But I would if it wasn't. The push given by grindy hands (with Wolf-skull) were something to be scared off. With Metallic Mimic coming in, I feel like this is a situation that can happen again. Just like how the Shared Animosity version had potential a while ago, before CoCo. But yes, as some have mentioned, with most of the cards we want at 2cmc, Vial Shamans might actually overtake CoCo Shamans or at the very least rivalize it. I will be one to try it for sure.
As for Firemantle Mage, Shamans are really good at flooding the board and against other aggro deck, sometimes need a push to bypass blockers, which Firemantle does very well. It acts as a simili-Magmatic Chasm on a tribal body.
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
I don't think that a third color is worth it, just throwing in Tasigur without support isn't any better than Thrun, the Last Troll (actually worse imho).
More removal isn't that necessary in my opinion but there are Flame Slash/Roast for bigger creatures, Electrickery for small ones and Sudden Shock for pump spell decks and Arcbound Ravager.
If you want to counter removal there was Wrap in Vigor that got upgraded recently to Heroic Intervention so no need for Blue here.
Personally, the only reason I would consider going Jund without a DRS unban would be in a Vial build as you can forgo the heavy colored cost of our best black options on the creatures. (Such as Batman.)
MODERN:
RG Shamanism RG
WUG Blades of the Avatars WUG
LEGACY:
WUBRG Cascabalance WUBRG
Made by the amazing Traproot
"Some say the clockwork doesn't speak... I say they are deaf to it's voice." -Daeren, Artificer Druid.
Archester Revival (Custom Steampunk set)
The deck is really fun, by the way.
The problem with Sachi here is that we don't have the pay off cards to make her work. What is the big deal with all that mana? We can't reliably cast anything that large. We aren't elves where nearly everything is a mana producer. Even Elves have to really work to be able to use Ezuri or cast Chord of Calling or use Westvale Abbey.
Shamans would get a lot better if DRS would be unbanned, but other decks would profit more from it. Even Elves would use DRS probably better than Shamans.
Shamans in my mind is an aggro-combo deck. One of the closest similar to our archetype is Bushwhacker Zoo for the effects, but also Elves for the Go Wide tribal strategy. Shamans unlike Zoo is slower, but can grind better especially depending on how you build.
I am going to try Metallic Mimic as the second lord for Shamans. I am going to look at 2 different decks. One with Atarka's command that is more about going more aggro and closer to Zoo. While I will use Oath of Nissa in attempt to go more combo and toolkit and closer to Elves.
Shamans can also be made fairly easily within budget. You don't need Vials, Caverns, Mutavaults, or Fetchlands. I simple mana base of Forest, Mountain, Copperline Gorge (at least when cheaper) or Rootbound Crag maybe with any of the dual lands from Shadows/BFZ could also be used.
Note: Aggro version could also use Experiment One. However, I don't possess Experiment One.
2 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Flamekin Harbinger
4 Bosk Banneret
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Wolf-Skull Shaman
4 Rageforger
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Loaming Shaman
2 Dismember
2 Essence Warden
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Burning-Tree Shaman
This is the more combo toolkit version still with Metallic Mimic
2 Mutavault
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Bosk Banneret
4 Rageforger
1 Burning-Tree Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Loaming Shaman
2 Goblin Ruinblaster
1 Destructive Revelry
3 Collected Company
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dismember
2 Essence Warden
2 Blood Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cunning Sparkmage