These are my thoughts from non-scientific testing done on forge (only with finks):
bojuka bog is anti-synergestic with scav ooze
acidic slime is SB material at best
Control and combo decks are extremelly difficult to fight against, discard is fundamental (more 2?)
too much competition in the 3 mana slot
troll ascetic is better when equiped with swords for example
shriekmaw is too conditional, 5 for a 3/2 if no creatures on board is not really that great
There is a some ramp, but its not an 'all-in' ramp leading to some big menace, nor the kind of controlled ramp that the geist decks use to get the geist in play by turn 2.
Don't have time to respond to everything, but to this I want to say that Scooze is not in the deck as a beater primarily, it is in the deck as an anti-gy card. The other anti-gy cards available to black and green are not as cheap, not as versatile, not as resilient, or a combination of a couple of these. Sometimes it acts as a beater in the right circumstances, but that is not the reason it is in the deck.
On the other hand it has nice synergy with Desecration Demon in that stalling it with Scooze in play generally means Scooze will grow.
Edit: So, it's a day later and I came to the decision to ever so slightly dip into white for 1x Gavony Township, though fueling it strictly with birds. It just gives the deck something to do with it's mana late game when you already have a decent looking battlefield.
I feel like this deck needs more cheap removal to survive the early turns. 4x abrupt decay is a must. I think the next best would be some combination of dismember and disfigure, with disfigure probably in the board. A lot of times, this deck can probably afford BB1 for dismember, but when you need it RIGHT NOW, it's there for you. After that, you can talk about maelstrom pulse or putrefy.
budget sweepers are tough, as they are all dependent on the match-up. I think my go-to cards would be drown in sorrow and engineered explosives.
I think 8 ramps plus 2 garruk is too much. 4-6 ramp and 2-3 garruk should be plenty. I also don't like birds in this list, as your deck is very dependent on dorks and they would die to your own sweepers or opposing bolts/pyroclasms often. It's slower, but I like sakura-tribe elder better... you want to be playing discard T1 as often as possible anyway.
...
I think 8 ramps plus 2 garruk is too much. 4-6 ramp and 2-3 garruk should be plenty. I also don't like birds in this list, as your deck is very dependent on dorks and they would die to your own sweepers or opposing bolts/pyroclasms often. It's slower, but I like sakura-tribe elder better... you want to be playing discard T1 as often as possible anyway.
Do you mean going into a Death Cloud style ramp using only Sakura and Garruk?
Do you mean going into a Death Cloud style ramp using only Sakura and Garruk?
Basically, yes. I can see the argument for wall of roots vs. sakura-tribe elder, or even running a split with 5-6 total. Personally I prefer tribe elder because the wall can be bolted when you block with it, it only provides green, and it's going to net you 5 mana total AT BEST. The small thinning benefit of the elder and the fact that it's good vs. blood moon & friends doesn't hurt. This deck really needs to hit 5-6 lands reliably, and I think it's almost always going to be better to cast T1 discard over birds.
Really, I think the deck wants to do something like this:
T1 land, inquisition
T2 land, tribe-elder (chump & fetch)
T3 land, garruk, +2 to abrupt decay/dismember something or cast more discard
T4 land, stabilize (either with a sweeper & -1 garruk, more spot removal + finks or phyrexian arena, or dropping thragtusk/rampaging baloths/grave titan).
I like it. If I were building it, it would look something like that. There's enough lifegain in there I'd probably go -2 duress +2 dismember, and put the remaining discard in the board. Reaper of the wilds is a card I hadn't heard of, but he looks pretty cool in this deck! I definitely think 24 lands is correct.
A discussion of sideboard is more important for this deck than many I think. It seems like you'd for sure want:
2 more discard spells for control and combo. Duress/thoughtseize. I wonder if there's an argument for appetite for brains? Hits pod, splinter twin, murderous redcap, archangel of thune, karn, wurmcoil, eldrazi, scapeshift, cryptic command... I doubt I'd run more than 1-2 in the board, but a 4/2/2 inquisition/duress/appetite split might be a decent budget option if thoughtseize is out of budget.
1-2 more copies of maelstrom pulse or putrefy
2-3 engineered explosives to deal with zoo, affinity, tokens, soul sisters, ect
grave hate... I've always been a fan of 4x leyline of the void.
a couple of pithing needles for pod, karn, lili, or whatever else you happen to need it against.
At least a singleton thrun, the last troll.
Budget land base is always a challenge, especially when you're trying to hit GG and BB quickly. Obviously anything with fetches, urborg, twilight mire, ect is better, but a reasonable budget version might be:
4 overgrown tomb
4 woodland cemetery
3 treetop village
3 forest
6 swamp
2 llanowar wastes
2 ghost quarter
I feel like this deck needs more cheap removal to survive the early turns. 4x abrupt decay is a must.
In all of my changes I forgot to update that on the list, but I am running a full set of Decay now.
I think 8 ramps plus 2 garruk is too much.
Since I reduced the top end of the curve I agree with you, which is why I am now running Garruk, Primal Hunter.
I also don't like birds in this list, as your deck is very dependent on dorks and they would die to your own sweepers or opposing bolts/pyroclasms often. It's slower, but I like sakura-tribe elder better... you want to be playing discard T1 as often as possible anyway.
I don't like steve at all here for two reasons:
1) He is not reusable (though I suppose the land is)
2) He does nothing for the board most of the time.
When you play Steve 99% of the time you are just waiting for him to chump so that you can sack him most efficiently- which means he is doing nothing until then, and he has no board presence after (obviously). Wall of Roots accelerates faster, and has much more effect on the battlefield. Sure, it is possible to kill it, but that does not negate it's benefit most games. Birds of Paradise is just fantastic here, and while you do want to play IoK turn one if you have it, you don't always have it. Birds also make BB much easier to pull off early on. Incidentally, if you have an opening hand that has Iok and one of your mana dorks, and you draw the other by turn two, you can play both dorks in that same turn thanks to WoR being able to give you G the turn it is played.
I also don't like birds in this list, as your deck is very dependent on dorks and they would die to your own sweepers or opposing bolts/pyroclasms often. It's slower, but I like sakura-tribe elder better... you want to be playing discard T1 as often as possible anyway.
I don't like steve at all here for two reasons:
1) He is not reusable (though I suppose the land is)
2) He does nothing for the board most of the time.
When you play Steve 99% of the time you are just waiting for him to chump so that you can sack him most efficiently- which means he is doing nothing until then, and he has no board presence after (obviously). Wall of Roots accelerates faster, and has much more effect on the battlefield. Sure, it is possible to kill it, but that does not negate it's benefit most games. Birds of Paradise is just fantastic here, and while you do want to play IoK turn one if you have it, you don't always have it. Birds also make BB much easier to pull off early on. Incidentally, if you have an opening hand that has Iok and one of your mana dorks, and you draw the other by turn two, you can play both dorks in that same turn thanks to WoR being able to give you G the turn it is played.
Have you considered Sylvan Caryatid? Hexproof, big butt, defender bird. Stays a bit longer than Wall if they aren't using Anger or an edict. It also lets you play your turn one IoK or Thoughtseize.
I tried something along these lines at a local modern event. My list was more grindey, less rampy. Nighthawk was an all star, so were finks.
Once I got a thrag down, it was really hard for the other person to deal with.
My list also ran a one of tombstalker.
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I tried something along these lines at a local modern event. My list was more grindey, less rampy. Nighthawk was an all star, so were finks.
Once I got a thrag down, it was really hard for the other person to deal with.
My list also ran a one of tombstalker.
Yea, I have not been keeping up with the deck evolution in the "primer", so it is different now and I think more potent.
The deck is tightening up and I cut the cord on a couple of my personal faves that were weighing the deck down. Between Nighthawk, Finks, and Tusk we are sporting a ton of staying power, and the deck now has a bit more evasion. I really liked the potential with Acidic Slime, but I just felt it was a poor play too often.
Seems to me thought, that if gavony is in the list , AND you have catacombs, why not splash white in the form of 1-2 Gardens, and the BW shock, can't remember the name. Otherwise we are relying entirely on dorks for the mana.
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maybe, though the only thing I would say to that is Township is a really nice way to finish the game faster, but it is by no means essential.
I think that the township is essential if you want to play mana dorks, just because then lategame they dont become quite as a useless topdeck if you can atleast pump them.
Your curve is huge! Have you thought about trying to streamline it a bit more so that you can curve out more often?
The big change was a tweak in the manabase and upping the scooze to 4.
Treetop village is amazing in this format. Anytime you can get someone to use their removal on a land you effectively 2 for 1 them.
So much of the format uses the GY or a high density of creatures that Scooze just does too much work to not play 4. He gets huge and gains life, stops all GY based wincons, and turns Snapcaster Mage into an ambush viper w/o deathtouch.
I still feel like the curve is too slow. Maybe cut the shriewmaws for Slaughter Pact so that you can safely tap out to cast huge creatures but then dont instantly die to pod or twin after you pass turn.
The big change was a tweak in the manabase and upping the scooze to 4.
Treetop village is amazing in this format. Anytime you can get someone to use their removal on a land you effectively 2 for 1 them.
So much of the format uses the GY or a high density of creatures that Scooze just does too much work to not play 4. He gets huge and gains life, stops all GY based wincons, and turns Snapcaster Mage into an ambush viper w/o deathtouch.
I still feel like the curve is too slow. Maybe cut the shriewmaws for Slaughter Pact so that you can safely tap out to cast huge creatures but then dont instantly die to pod or twin after you pass turn.
I don't like Scooze at four because it doesn't die enough and it can be really expensive to feed when you are trying to get fat onto the field. I rarely want to have more than one in play at a time. I love Treetop, and I don't want to toss out Bog entirely, but I could see making one of them a manland. Shriekmaw is removal with an evasive body, and is a late game drop. Besides, personally (and this is just me when I play in meatspace), I don't trust myself with Pacts outside of combo due to being forgetful about triggers. If I thought it was a good replacement for Shriekmaw then I would change the primer and just personally not use pact, but I think I still like the creature better.
Vampire Nighthawk is really an improvement over Courser. It's evasive, and Lifelink + Deathtouch is exceedingly relevant.
I think that the township is essential if you want to play mana dorks, just because then lategame they dont become quite as a useless topdeck if you can atleast pump them.
Your curve is huge! Have you thought about trying to streamline it a bit more so that you can curve out more often?
There is a some ramp, but its not an 'all-in' ramp leading to some big menace, nor the kind of controlled ramp that the geist decks use to get the geist in play by turn 2.
What I liked:
On the other hand it has nice synergy with Desecration Demon in that stalling it with Scooze in play generally means Scooze will grow.
BTW: I did break down and buy a couple copies of Courser of Kruphix, so today and tonight I will be testing a the all-in version with another addition, so:
-2 Troll Ascetic
-2 Garruk Wildspeaker
+2 Courser of Kurphix
+2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Edit: So, it's a day later and I came to the decision to ever so slightly dip into white for 1x Gavony Township, though fueling it strictly with birds. It just gives the deck something to do with it's mana late game when you already have a decent looking battlefield.
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budget sweepers are tough, as they are all dependent on the match-up. I think my go-to cards would be drown in sorrow and engineered explosives.
I think 8 ramps plus 2 garruk is too much. 4-6 ramp and 2-3 garruk should be plenty. I also don't like birds in this list, as your deck is very dependent on dorks and they would die to your own sweepers or opposing bolts/pyroclasms often. It's slower, but I like sakura-tribe elder better... you want to be playing discard T1 as often as possible anyway.
Do you mean going into a Death Cloud style ramp using only Sakura and Garruk?
Basically, yes. I can see the argument for wall of roots vs. sakura-tribe elder, or even running a split with 5-6 total. Personally I prefer tribe elder because the wall can be bolted when you block with it, it only provides green, and it's going to net you 5 mana total AT BEST. The small thinning benefit of the elder and the fact that it's good vs. blood moon & friends doesn't hurt. This deck really needs to hit 5-6 lands reliably, and I think it's almost always going to be better to cast T1 discard over birds.
Really, I think the deck wants to do something like this:
T1 land, inquisition
T2 land, tribe-elder (chump & fetch)
T3 land, garruk, +2 to abrupt decay/dismember something or cast more discard
T4 land, stabilize (either with a sweeper & -1 garruk, more spot removal + finks or phyrexian arena, or dropping thragtusk/rampaging baloths/grave titan).
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Thragtusk
2 Desecration Demon
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Duress
2 Phyrexian Arena
1 Maelstrom Pulse
I like it. If I were building it, it would look something like that. There's enough lifegain in there I'd probably go -2 duress +2 dismember, and put the remaining discard in the board. Reaper of the wilds is a card I hadn't heard of, but he looks pretty cool in this deck! I definitely think 24 lands is correct.
A discussion of sideboard is more important for this deck than many I think. It seems like you'd for sure want:
2 more discard spells for control and combo. Duress/thoughtseize. I wonder if there's an argument for appetite for brains? Hits pod, splinter twin, murderous redcap, archangel of thune, karn, wurmcoil, eldrazi, scapeshift, cryptic command... I doubt I'd run more than 1-2 in the board, but a 4/2/2 inquisition/duress/appetite split might be a decent budget option if thoughtseize is out of budget.
1-2 more copies of maelstrom pulse or putrefy
2-3 engineered explosives to deal with zoo, affinity, tokens, soul sisters, ect
grave hate... I've always been a fan of 4x leyline of the void.
a couple of pithing needles for pod, karn, lili, or whatever else you happen to need it against.
At least a singleton thrun, the last troll.
Budget land base is always a challenge, especially when you're trying to hit GG and BB quickly. Obviously anything with fetches, urborg, twilight mire, ect is better, but a reasonable budget version might be:
4 overgrown tomb
4 woodland cemetery
3 treetop village
3 forest
6 swamp
2 llanowar wastes
2 ghost quarter
Since I reduced the top end of the curve I agree with you, which is why I am now running Garruk, Primal Hunter.
I don't like steve at all here for two reasons:
1) He is not reusable (though I suppose the land is)
2) He does nothing for the board most of the time.
When you play Steve 99% of the time you are just waiting for him to chump so that you can sack him most efficiently- which means he is doing nothing until then, and he has no board presence after (obviously). Wall of Roots accelerates faster, and has much more effect on the battlefield. Sure, it is possible to kill it, but that does not negate it's benefit most games. Birds of Paradise is just fantastic here, and while you do want to play IoK turn one if you have it, you don't always have it. Birds also make BB much easier to pull off early on. Incidentally, if you have an opening hand that has Iok and one of your mana dorks, and you draw the other by turn two, you can play both dorks in that same turn thanks to WoR being able to give you G the turn it is played.
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Have you considered Sylvan Caryatid? Hexproof, big butt, defender bird. Stays a bit longer than Wall if they aren't using Anger or an edict. It also lets you play your turn one IoK or Thoughtseize.
Once I got a thrag down, it was really hard for the other person to deal with.
My list also ran a one of tombstalker.
Death and Taxes
Pauper
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Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
Other Creatures
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Desecration Demon
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Shriekmaw
3 Thragtusk
Wranglers
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Other Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Woodland Cemetery
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Treetop Village
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Gavony Township
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Shriekmaw
2 Putrefy
3 Obstinate Baloth
The deck is tightening up and I cut the cord on a couple of my personal faves that were weighing the deck down. Between Nighthawk, Finks, and Tusk we are sporting a ton of staying power, and the deck now has a bit more evasion. I really liked the potential with Acidic Slime, but I just felt it was a poor play too often.
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Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
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Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
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I think that the township is essential if you want to play mana dorks, just because then lategame they dont become quite as a useless topdeck if you can atleast pump them.
Your curve is huge! Have you thought about trying to streamline it a bit more so that you can curve out more often?
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
Other Creatures
4 Scavenging Ooze
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Desecration Demon
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Shriekmaw
2 Thragtusk
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
Other Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Phyrexian Arena
Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Woodland Cemetery
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Treetop Village
2 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Gavony Township
1 Temple Garden
The big change was a tweak in the manabase and upping the scooze to 4.
Treetop village is amazing in this format. Anytime you can get someone to use their removal on a land you effectively 2 for 1 them.
So much of the format uses the GY or a high density of creatures that Scooze just does too much work to not play 4. He gets huge and gains life, stops all GY based wincons, and turns Snapcaster Mage into an ambush viper w/o deathtouch.
I still feel like the curve is too slow. Maybe cut the shriewmaws for Slaughter Pact so that you can safely tap out to cast huge creatures but then dont instantly die to pod or twin after you pass turn.
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I don't like Scooze at four because it doesn't die enough and it can be really expensive to feed when you are trying to get fat onto the field. I rarely want to have more than one in play at a time. I love Treetop, and I don't want to toss out Bog entirely, but I could see making one of them a manland. Shriekmaw is removal with an evasive body, and is a late game drop. Besides, personally (and this is just me when I play in meatspace), I don't trust myself with Pacts outside of combo due to being forgetful about triggers. If I thought it was a good replacement for Shriekmaw then I would change the primer and just personally not use pact, but I think I still like the creature better.
Vampire Nighthawk is really an improvement over Courser. It's evasive, and Lifelink + Deathtouch is exceedingly relevant.
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So if you had access to 4 Liliana of the Veil, how many would you put in the deck and where would you put them?
I'm thinking you run 4 Lily'sand cut back the ramp to 4 Sylvan Caryatid. Thoughts?