Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Bans, unbans, and all things related to the banlist and banlist policy
Metagame health and diversity
Reprint suggestions and reprint philosophy
New cards and design philosophy
Prices and Modern finance
Archetype definitions
Format health, successes, and challenges
Anything that constructively relates to these different issues
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
There are also some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
I am not 100% sure this is where we talk about the ban announcement. I originally thought I should post on the State of Modern thread, but it said it was about the October announcement and there were no posts, so I wasn't sure that is where we were supposed to post. I therefore just started a new post. If this is incorrect please let me know mods and I will move my comment/thread to a new place.
Well no bans or unbans this time. Modern is definitely in a decent place right now, but a few tweaks could have helped the format in my opinion. I think Mox Opal and Simian Spirit Guide should have been gone a long time ago. I have also heard other say some cards that should be on the watch list- ancient stirrings, myoscynth lattice, Once upon a time, and some say Urza, but I disagree with of these at this point. I also think an unban of Preordain is way overdue given the amount of green deck manipulation they are allowing into the format in Once upon a time, ancient stirrings, and oath of nissa. I guess we have to wait another month to see if they are looking into the modern meta again. To be very honest, these are all things that I think cause feel bad moments in modern or seem a bit one sided towards colorless and green decks; BUT there is no major reason for any change in modern right now like a dominate deck, turn two wins, etc so no bans or unbans seems like a totally reasonable opinion at this point.
While there are some cards that I personally think need to be at least reviewed, I do think no action was likely the best action at this point given modern's current state. What do you all think?
urza decks have risen in strength and i can understand a mox opal ban. simian spirit guide is alright i guess. stirings, urza, karn the great creator, and 3 mana teferi are also problematic. i personally dont want to see preordain but i guess it wouldnt be overpowered.
With Oko being banned in Standard. I wonder how long it would take before he becomes banned here in modern?
T3feri is the planeswalker I dislike the most. Biased opinion because I play an esper deck with plenty of instants. Well, but still think there are not enough reasons to ban him. Rather I would wish that WoTC print more broad answers like for example Murderous Rider and Hero's Downfall which would kill a creature or a walker.
I think it might be time to ban Oko and/or Urza/plus maybe something else after this weekend. enough is enough for me. Half of both the SCG and GP this weekend were Urza decks. Both events also had titan decks which are running Oko now
Lots of collateral damage just like with the faithless looting ban. Cheerios and affinity both taking a gutshot. I've already moved over to infect. Titan, u/w control, tron, burn, infect look like good picks right now.
tbh I'm pretty happy they banned out a lot of the problem cards today. The cascade rule was a much needed update too, it was silly being able to cascade into Tibalt off a 3 cmc spell.
I like the field ban a lot. While titan decks still get the 0 mountain Valakut package due to dryad, at least they don't ALSO get field. I still plan on running land hate in my sideboards due to tron and amulet decks, which are gonna still be around
After so many years Simian spirit guide is finally banned.
Another one of those cards we knew wasn't exactly good for the format but we all just got used to it.
Losing Ad nausem sucks though.
The other are just recent mistakes and I don't think anyone would mourn them.
I feel that MH2 is a perfect fit for the most part as it's brought a lot of decks that hadn't been great for a while back (living end, fish etc) and brought in new decks (like food). I agree that Saga and Ragavan are quite good, I just don't know if they'll ever see a ban.
I don't know where I stand on a jitte unban yet but I think twin and pod could be reasonable unbans, as the format has changed quite a bit since they ate a ban. I feel the etb tapped dual artifact lands really made me think what they'll do with the mono colour ones
Really we wont ever get the original artifact lands back, or at least not any time soon. I think the reason they printed the bridges other than to make affinity not be a pile of woe is to see how it interacts, even as it has to interact slower than it ever did since they CIPT. Honestly you still get a bunch of positive interaction with the actual affinity mechanic even with the taplands. Which really means letting us have the non tap affinity lands problematic.
Glimpse of Nature is just NOT going to happen, to many ways to add a color easy and spam out a deck and elves would be impossible to not play.
I really wonder about people that want to play twin. Its like they think its innocuous but really it isnt and even with format changes just too darn good.
Jitte I can actually see coming back since removal has gotten very streamlined and its not as unfair as it was.
Rite of Flame just cant come off since even at sorcery speed the interactions are way more than casual and wizards really doesn't like ritual mana in modern. Heck they barely like mana dorks in standard anymore. Also they hate storm and are never giving it such a easy wincon. Gonna have to work for it guys.
Also Ponder in modern? Its limited in Vintage for crying out loud, that should tell you what power level its on. Preordain (its little cousin) does not need to be put together with Explosive Iteration.
Honestly Pod is fine to come off the ban list since you actually could interact with it in a meaningful way. Never really understood why it went in the first place.
Shoal is problematic, on one hand I could see since the average mana value of decks are so slim anymore that its not going to be a issue in most decks. On the other, any deck that has flying creatures and something like magma opus as part of the deck could really break the game since magma is NOT a dead card before it can be played.
I was actually having a bit of banlist discussion with friends a few days ago and Jitte was a card that came up and we talked about a lot. My issue with it is that often games just become about it. It's either answer it right away or the benefit it gives even after only hitting once is just so good. It triggers off dealing combat damage, not just to players but to anything. Which is absurd.
I feel you could probably argue pod or twin for hours and still not change your mind just because of how entrenched either side is on their points of view. I feel both are probably fine. Twin does make weird lines of play, but I feel the format is faster now than it was 5-6 years ago. Yeah we've gotten better etb creatures but I feel pod probably is just fine and there are decks that can grind as well as it, especially Lurrus piles.
I don't think any cantrips should be unbanned, eve as a blue player. They're probably just too good, same as any of the storm rituals.
I'm still not 100% convinced anything needs to be banned. Ragavan is really good but not broken. Same with Saga and anything else from MH2. I'd entertain the idea of increasing the cost to move companions to hand or maybe banning the use of companions in some from but still allowing them to be used in the deck.
My LGS just recently held an In-Person Modern Event in honor of someone who passed away recently 2 weeks ago. They also held a In-Person Yu-Gi-Oh! Event for a Yu-Gi-Oh! player who also passed away recently though it wasn't from COVID-19 as it was from a tumor that he had. Unfortunately he kept his circumstance a secret from everyone until it was too late as the store owners broke the news on their official website. Speaking of the In-Person Modern Event my LGS had we got a turnout of over 20 players which is actually pretty good as far as pre-COVID norms go and gives me hope that we'll see more player turnouts at LGSs post-COVID despite Arena continuing to take away foot traffic for those who chose to grind remotely at home which I fear may be the new normal post-COVID. Hopefully that won't be the case but time will tell.
Haven't really been keeping up with the Modern format since I got into EDH / Commander but from what I can tell with the way market inflation has been affecting the MTG Secondary Market it's looking very unhealthy in terms of barrier of entry especially with how Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro are making it harder for LGSs to gain access to reprints without having to purchase them through Secret Lair drops. We are getting Double Masters 2 later which should help make certain cards more affordable but then again I think it's a shame that Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro refuses to capitalize on the idea of Remastered sets for Paper Magic when it comes to reprints while avoiding the mistake they made with Time Spiral Remastered by limiting the amount of print runs when they were generous enough to give us more print runs for Jumpstart.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Dunno, been watching a ton of modern coverage recently and format seems to be in a pretty good place. Ragavan is fine, if maybe a little overrepresented. Lurrus is good value but never seems busted.
Nothing seems overly broken to me at the moment. There's probably about 5 cards I'd say are possible bans (Ragavan, saga, lurrus) but none of them are dominating over the rest of the decks so it'd have to be ban 3 to 4 cards or ban none in my opinion. I could see some unbans though for sure since Twin wouldn't play any of the currently broken cards (maybe ragavan?) and punishing fire/DRS might allow for more midrange Jund decks to flourish.
the forerunners in the ban discussion/options/likely to be banned/however you wanna put it are probably Ragavan, Saga and Lurrus. I'd probably still prefer no ban tbh, but if a ban is really needed, I'd accept the bare minimum and ban Lurrus and just Lurrus. Then it gets rid of the homogenized deckbuilding of a lot of midrange type decks and almost encourages them to build differently because they don't have this ultra grindy card that restricts deck building choices to under 2 cmc. I would understand a monkey ban but I still hate seeing expensive cards being banned. I'm still not sure if it's power level warrants a ban, despite it being really good. I don't think Saga should get a ban as I appreciate the way it plays out
Kinda hoping that Tron and Affinity would get banned in Modern the same way it got banned in Pauper recently.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Lately, Modern community members have expressed interest in talking holistically about the challenges and problems facing Modern. Whether or not Modern has "challenges" or "problems" is up for debate, but what is clear is that people want to talk about all of these issues in one unified setting.
As such, Modern staff are opening this thread as a replacement for the old "Banlist Discussion" thread and the "State of the Meta thread." You can use this thread to talk about any and all of these varied Modern issues and their intersection. This thread will be heavily moderated, so be sure to read the rules before posting; anyone who posts in this thread is assumed to have read and understood these rules.
Allowed topics
Prohibited topics and behavior
The mod team will strictly enforce these rules. Please make this a place where people are unafraid to post constructive thoughts.
Update from the October 7, 2019 B&R Announcement:
No changes to any formats.
Next B&R Announcement:
November 18, 2019
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have or have not gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Hogaak, Faithless Lootings banned, Stoneforge unbanned.
Bridge from Below is banned
Krark-Clan Ironworks is banned
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Bloodbraid Elf unbanned
October 2017: No changes
March 2017: No changes
Gitaxian Probe and Golgari Grave-Troll are banned
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
Old threads:
26/08/2019 - 07/10/2019
08/07/2019 - 26/08/2019
20/05/2019 - 08/07/2019
11/03/2019 - 20/05/2019
21/01/2019 - 11/03/2019
26/11/2018 - 21/01/2019
01/10/2018 - 26/11/2018
08/20/2018 - 01/10/2018
07/02/2018 - 08/20/2018
04/16/2018 - 07/02/2018
02/10/2018 - 04/16/2018
01/15/2017 - 02/10/2018
10/27/2017 - 01/15/2017
7/18/2017 - 10/27/2017
3/23/2017 - 4/24/2017
3/13/2017 - 3/23/2017
1/9/17 Banlist Update
12/8/2016 - 3/13/2017
9/28/2016 - 12/10/2016
7/18/2016 - 9/30/2016
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Well no bans or unbans this time. Modern is definitely in a decent place right now, but a few tweaks could have helped the format in my opinion. I think Mox Opal and Simian Spirit Guide should have been gone a long time ago. I have also heard other say some cards that should be on the watch list- ancient stirrings, myoscynth lattice, Once upon a time, and some say Urza, but I disagree with of these at this point. I also think an unban of Preordain is way overdue given the amount of green deck manipulation they are allowing into the format in Once upon a time, ancient stirrings, and oath of nissa. I guess we have to wait another month to see if they are looking into the modern meta again. To be very honest, these are all things that I think cause feel bad moments in modern or seem a bit one sided towards colorless and green decks; BUT there is no major reason for any change in modern right now like a dominate deck, turn two wins, etc so no bans or unbans seems like a totally reasonable opinion at this point.
While there are some cards that I personally think need to be at least reviewed, I do think no action was likely the best action at this point given modern's current state. What do you all think?
Merged with the state of Modern thread.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
T3feri is the planeswalker I dislike the most. Biased opinion because I play an esper deck with plenty of instants. Well, but still think there are not enough reasons to ban him. Rather I would wish that WoTC print more broad answers like for example Murderous Rider and Hero's Downfall which would kill a creature or a walker.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Saves me the money of having to shell out for a set. I can finally compete with my affinity deck without the worry of falling behind lol
Burn
Field of the Dead is banned.
Mystic Sanctuary is banned.
Simian Spirit Guide is banned.
Tibalt's Trickery is banned. (this was pretty obvious with cascades), also cascade gets an update on rules
Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath is banned.
I like the field ban a lot. While titan decks still get the 0 mountain Valakut package due to dryad, at least they don't ALSO get field. I still plan on running land hate in my sideboards due to tron and amulet decks, which are gonna still be around
Another one of those cards we knew wasn't exactly good for the format but we all just got used to it.
Losing Ad nausem sucks though.
The other are just recent mistakes and I don't think anyone would mourn them.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
surprised they killed the ape.
this feels like a huge reset, like what they did in Pioneer last year.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Urza's Saga and Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer have potential to get kicked eventually, but I think it's not needed, yet.
What I would love to see are some unbans, the easy ones being:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Great Furnace
Green Sun's Zenith
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Seat of the Synod
Tree of Tales
Umezawa's Jitte
Vault of Whispers
and the more borderline ones being:
Birthing Pod
Glimpse of Nature
Ponder
Rite of Flame
Splinter Twin
I don't know where I stand on a jitte unban yet but I think twin and pod could be reasonable unbans, as the format has changed quite a bit since they ate a ban. I feel the etb tapped dual artifact lands really made me think what they'll do with the mono colour ones
Glimpse of Nature is just NOT going to happen, to many ways to add a color easy and spam out a deck and elves would be impossible to not play.
I really wonder about people that want to play twin. Its like they think its innocuous but really it isnt and even with format changes just too darn good.
Jitte I can actually see coming back since removal has gotten very streamlined and its not as unfair as it was.
Rite of Flame just cant come off since even at sorcery speed the interactions are way more than casual and wizards really doesn't like ritual mana in modern. Heck they barely like mana dorks in standard anymore. Also they hate storm and are never giving it such a easy wincon. Gonna have to work for it guys.
Also Ponder in modern? Its limited in Vintage for crying out loud, that should tell you what power level its on. Preordain (its little cousin) does not need to be put together with Explosive Iteration.
Honestly Pod is fine to come off the ban list since you actually could interact with it in a meaningful way. Never really understood why it went in the first place.
Shoal is problematic, on one hand I could see since the average mana value of decks are so slim anymore that its not going to be a issue in most decks. On the other, any deck that has flying creatures and something like magma opus as part of the deck could really break the game since magma is NOT a dead card before it can be played.
I feel you could probably argue pod or twin for hours and still not change your mind just because of how entrenched either side is on their points of view. I feel both are probably fine. Twin does make weird lines of play, but I feel the format is faster now than it was 5-6 years ago. Yeah we've gotten better etb creatures but I feel pod probably is just fine and there are decks that can grind as well as it, especially Lurrus piles.
I don't think any cantrips should be unbanned, eve as a blue player. They're probably just too good, same as any of the storm rituals.
I'm still not 100% convinced anything needs to be banned. Ragavan is really good but not broken. Same with Saga and anything else from MH2. I'd entertain the idea of increasing the cost to move companions to hand or maybe banning the use of companions in some from but still allowing them to be used in the deck.
Haven't really been keeping up with the Modern format since I got into EDH / Commander but from what I can tell with the way market inflation has been affecting the MTG Secondary Market it's looking very unhealthy in terms of barrier of entry especially with how Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro are making it harder for LGSs to gain access to reprints without having to purchase them through Secret Lair drops. We are getting Double Masters 2 later which should help make certain cards more affordable but then again I think it's a shame that Wizards of the Coast / Hasbro refuses to capitalize on the idea of Remastered sets for Paper Magic when it comes to reprints while avoiding the mistake they made with Time Spiral Remastered by limiting the amount of print runs when they were generous enough to give us more print runs for Jumpstart.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Lurrus is the current favourite for bans.
I honestly want Ragavan to be banned as well.
Opinions?
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
Sounds about right. I would want Pod/Twin unbanned, either or both. They have banned 10 cards in Modern since the last unban
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta