Haven't played modern since war of the spark came out but "blast zone" looks like bad news for bogles players or decks that rely on arbor elf + utopia sprawl. Does this card push out some of the budget friendly fringe decks? This is true of many competitive decks but this card looks strong.
I'm running two Blast Zones in my tron deck. It's insane!
But yeah, I did enjoy the format more when there was less graveyard decks running around.
Me too. I also enjoyed it when people were rewarded for playing with their opponent instead of at them, through them, or ignoring them. But I guess those days are long gone and never coming back.
Brother, we are at like 3.5 years since its been that way. Its over. Even if Twin came back, its over.
Haven't played modern since war of the spark came out but "blast zone" looks like bad news for bogles players or decks that rely on arbor elf + utopia sprawl. Does this card push out some of the budget friendly fringe decks? This is true of many competitive decks but this card looks strong.
already using it in my UW, it's a good spell tacked onto a land.
Semi finals:
Hogaak vs Hogaak
Hogaak vs Mono red phoenix
Quarterfinals::
Dredge vs Hogaak
Hogaak vs Mono red phoenix
Hogaak vs Hogaak
mono red phoenix vs UW Control
If you register less than 5 hate cards, lol.
I've been of the opinion that we ought to wait this out and see what happens, but when 5/8 of the decks are graveyard decks, two are arguably graveyard decks, and there's exactly one deck that could be considered fair . . . wow.
I've been running 4 Rav Traps but I'll be going up. This feels like Vintage when Dredge gets too strong, except there aren't any other pillars to rely on.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
I'm not going to panic until I see if the lists had enough hate. If we see 6-8 GY related hate cards in the lists (Scooze, Surgical, RIP, Leyline, Trap) and this still happens?
Played Hogaak Vine in a Team Trios today. I personally went 4-2 and our team got 5th (out of prizing for only top 4) because of an early concession by a teammate.
Round 1 vs. Esper. I was up 1-0 when my teammates won. I probably would have lost game 2. I drew all except 4 lands in my deck with more than half my deck left.
Round 2 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares than he does.
Round 3 vs. Burn. He wins by having a certain number of cards, I don't draw Altar, and he is dead both times on the crack back if he doesn't do exact lethal.
Round 4 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares.
Round 5 vs. Humans. I lose 0-2 because I draw Altar of Dementia on the final turn before exact lethal both times with not enough mana to cast it. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Round 6 vs. Devoted Druid combo. We are tied 1-1 in the final game, but it looked like my mediocre beats were going to beat Rest in Peace.
Pretty disgusting tournament for local great players who were prepared for the deck, for the most part.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
not sure what to say.. maybe it's just because the Hogaak deck is new?
It's not new on MTGO. Last week the Challenge was full with Hogaak, so I can't imagine people joining the Challenge this week without being prepared for it.
Semi finals:
Hogaak vs Hogaak
Hogaak vs Mono red phoenix
Everything is perfectly fine.
No need to panic.
Need more data.
The meta will adjust.
Just play 4+ graveyard hate maindeck (dooesn't matter if you lose to humans or uw control because of that).
You are just a crying baby... bridge is fine, stop de QQ.
Like it never happened before. People tend to play the ‘new big thing’. I still remember people crying for the top8 dominated by Jund Shadow and Grixis Shadow. In three months they became Tier 2.
If you keep jamming Bad Midrange, on the other side, you can’t pretend to have good results consistently. And, yes, in the meantime you should up the count of your graveyard hate. You won’t ‘lose against the field’ when half the field is making use of graveyard sheenigans.
Hey formats fine, we need to have 4 Leyline of the Void, white decks require 3-4 Rest in Peace, targeted hate at 2-3 Surgical Extraction, some decks will need 3 Ravenous Trap, and tron decks will default to 4 relic plus the after mentioned mandatory 4 leylines. No problems here!
Also if things get hairy, I recommend the good ol' Maindeck leylines and hate pieces to make sure you hose those gy decks. Yeah we are just not liking that modern is just evolving okay?
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
What on earth could they print!? For real though! What’s better than pregame effects? They aren’t giving is a better RiP. How do you improve upon free and instant?
I don’t think these highly focused silver bullets are enough anymore.
What on earth could they print!? For real though! What’s better than pregame effects? They aren’t giving is a better RiP. How do you improve upon free and instant?
I don’t think these highly focused silver bullets are enough anymore.
hmm, just hoping there would be something in the set to help lessen the power of yard decks.
I could see bridge getting the banhammer sooner or later if something isn't found to weaken it.
What on earth could they print!? For real though! What’s better than pregame effects? They aren’t giving is a better RiP. How do you improve upon free and instant?
I don’t think these highly focused silver bullets are enough anymore.
There's little else they could do imo.
An artifact that does what RIP does at 1 mana? Another Void at 1 mana? A legendary colourless land with with RIP text? I mean these are harsh hate cards.
I dont know. IMO, just load up on the hate, and accept that thats what it takes to keep Dredge/Phoenix/Hogaak down.
It is what it is, and I firmly believe that just like when the format warped towards Phoenix (and it did, to numbers we have not seen in years), and Esper was able to tune for it, if the format warps toward Hogaak, then UWx can tune for it.
Re: graveyard hate prevalence
To some extent, there isn't anything necessarily wrong with maindeck or prevalent graveyard hate. It's not like the graveyard is a niche resource anymore. There are so many strategies which use it to some extent. I expect sweepers are dead in fewer matchups than graveyard hate, which doesn't mean the format is broken, but does mean we need to recognize the graveyard as an important gameplay element. The problem arises in two situations. First, it comes up when decks have too much graveyard hate. This is the Mirrodin-era precedent with artifact hate. It's probably fine to have 2-3 MD GY hate spells and maybe 1-2 more in the SB. But requiring 8 is probably too many and a sign of warping. Second, we face a problem when drawing that GY hate is the only way to win a matchup. This is Wizards' initial ban rationale in the GGT ban, that games come down to who draws GY hate and who draws the counter to GY hate. If that is happening on a significant scale, that's also a problem.
Re: Hogaak Vine
There are no results from this weekend that will, or should, change my position. Our ban method should not change until we have consistent results from multiple venues over a longer time range than two weeks. It doesn't matter if the people calling for a Hogaak Vine ban end up being right and the card gets banned in July or later. If the ban mania method hits the target once every 1-2 years, we don't suddenly adopt it and ignore the literal dozens of misses this method produces. That method of asking for bans within two weeks of a breakout deck was wrong on so many strategies in the last two years. Instead, we stick with the data-first method, which successfully predicted the KCI ban and every "No changes" since 2017. This method may well point to a Hogaak Vine ban in a few weeks after we get some paper data and/or more sustained MTGO results. I would rather we use the accurate method that is sometimes slower to identify true problems than the inaccurate method that quickly indicts numerous strategies that ultimately are proven innocent.
Re: graveyard hate prevalence
To some extent, there isn't anything necessarily wrong with maindeck or prevalent graveyard hate. It's not like the graveyard is a niche resource anymore. There are so many strategies which use it to some extent. I expect sweepers are dead in fewer matchups than graveyard hate, which doesn't mean the format is broken, but does mean we need to recognize the graveyard as an important gameplay element. The problem arises in two situations. First, it comes up when decks have too much graveyard hate. This is the Mirrodin-era precedent with artifact hate. It's probably fine to have 2-3 MD GY hate spells and maybe 1-2 more in the SB. But requiring 8 is probably too many and a sign of warping. Second, we face a problem when drawing that GY hate is the only way to win a matchup. This is Wizards' initial ban rationale in the GGT ban, that games come down to who draws GY hate and who draws the counter to GY hate. If that is happening on a significant scale, that's also a problem.
I'm not sure this is still valid. After all new Dredge is better than old Dredge, is even harder to interact with (Chill) and can win as early as Turn 3.
I believe that the artificial push of 'diversity' has lead to Wizard allowing decks that would have been banned based on older belief's to continue. Dredge, Phoenix, etc, and if not for people vocally complaining about KCI, even it would have remained.
Hogaak is certainly looking unbeatable if you do not draw hate, or have your own Turn 3 kill, based on everything I've seen so far.
Here is one of the games from the winner of the Modern Challenge btw, he says the only thing that slowed him was Leyline.
Like it or not, this is the new reality of Modern. Modern players can accept it (and play 4+ pieces of GY hate in the 75) or futilely defy it, but we cannot deny the reality of it. There's no indication that the powers that govern the game see any issue with this.
Modern can still be fun but the novelty of the format wears out fast.
In the 5 years I've played in this format, game play has never been less engaging and shallow than it is right now.
1) Find X hate card
2) Find answer to X hate card
This is the strategic depth of most of the format currently.
Anyone remember those months and years gone by where people complained that Modern is a battle of the sideboards? Those times are a pleasant memory compared to what's going on currently.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I just think the power level has increased so much in that time frame, I actually think we must be due for a course correction and some really low power sets soon. I think back to when I started when Zoo was actually a thing.
The power level of Hogaak strangely reminds me of the banned card Dread Return. It feels like we're slowly approaching the level of legacy dredge.. just that instead of flame-kin zealot finisher, Hogaak has mill to finish off opponents in addition to the bum rush of creatures.
Re: graveyard hate prevalence
To some extent, there isn't anything necessarily wrong with maindeck or prevalent graveyard hate. It's not like the graveyard is a niche resource anymore. There are so many strategies which use it to some extent. I expect sweepers are dead in fewer matchups than graveyard hate, which doesn't mean the format is broken, but does mean we need to recognize the graveyard as an important gameplay element. The problem arises in two situations. First, it comes up when decks have too much graveyard hate. This is the Mirrodin-era precedent with artifact hate. It's probably fine to have 2-3 MD GY hate spells and maybe 1-2 more in the SB. But requiring 8 is probably too many and a sign of warping. Second, we face a problem when drawing that GY hate is the only way to win a matchup. This is Wizards' initial ban rationale in the GGT ban, that games come down to who draws GY hate and who draws the counter to GY hate. If that is happening on a significant scale, that's also a problem.
I'm not sure this is still valid. After all new Dredge is better than old Dredge, is even harder to interact with (Chill) and can win as early as Turn 3.
I believe that the artificial push of 'diversity' has lead to Wizard allowing decks that would have been banned based on older belief's to continue. Dredge, Phoenix, etc, and if not for people vocally complaining about KCI, even it would have remained.
Hogaak is certainly looking unbeatable if you do not draw hate, or have your own Turn 3 kill, based on everything I've seen so far.
Here is one of the games from the winner of the Modern Challenge btw, he says the only thing that slowed him was Leyline.
The obvious brokenness doesn't matter, we need MORE DATA!
Wizards has to act somehow, because the upcoming PT will be a mess.
Why? They have said numerous times that this is healthy. They're flatly wrong, but that's at least what people who run the format, and don't play the format, believe.
I'm running two Blast Zones in my tron deck. It's insane!
Finals: Hogaak vs Hogaak
Semi finals:
Hogaak vs Hogaak
Hogaak vs Mono red phoenix
Quarterfinals::
Dredge vs Hogaak
Hogaak vs Mono red phoenix
Hogaak vs Hogaak
mono red phoenix vs UW Control
If you register less than 5 hate cards, lol.
Brother, we are at like 3.5 years since its been that way. Its over. Even if Twin came back, its over.
Spirits
already using it in my UW, it's a good spell tacked onto a land.
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I've been of the opinion that we ought to wait this out and see what happens, but when 5/8 of the decks are graveyard decks, two are arguably graveyard decks, and there's exactly one deck that could be considered fair . . . wow.
I've been running 4 Rav Traps but I'll be going up. This feels like Vintage when Dredge gets too strong, except there aren't any other pillars to rely on.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
not sure what to say.. maybe it's just because the Hogaak deck is new?
glad I did not throw away the pithing needles that I got years ago. Stopping the altar seems to be a good way to stop the mill.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
lol
Spirits
Round 1 vs. Esper. I was up 1-0 when my teammates won. I probably would have lost game 2. I drew all except 4 lands in my deck with more than half my deck left.
Round 2 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares than he does.
Round 3 vs. Burn. He wins by having a certain number of cards, I don't draw Altar, and he is dead both times on the crack back if he doesn't do exact lethal.
Round 4 vs. Mirror. I win because I draw more Leylines and Wispmares.
Round 5 vs. Humans. I lose 0-2 because I draw Altar of Dementia on the final turn before exact lethal both times with not enough mana to cast it. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Round 6 vs. Devoted Druid combo. We are tied 1-1 in the final game, but it looked like my mediocre beats were going to beat Rest in Peace.
Pretty disgusting tournament for local great players who were prepared for the deck, for the most part.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Everything is perfectly fine.
No need to panic.
Need more data.
The meta will adjust.
Just play 4+ graveyard hate maindeck (dooesn't matter if you lose to humans or uw control because of that).
You are just a crying baby... bridge is fine, stop de QQ.
If you keep jamming Bad Midrange, on the other side, you can’t pretend to have good results consistently. And, yes, in the meantime you should up the count of your graveyard hate. You won’t ‘lose against the field’ when half the field is making use of graveyard sheenigans.
Also if things get hairy, I recommend the good ol' Maindeck leylines and hate pieces to make sure you hose those gy decks. Yeah we are just not liking that modern is just evolving okay?
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I don’t think these highly focused silver bullets are enough anymore.
"Reveal a Dragon"
Stop complaining and start being constructive, for god’s sake.
hmm, just hoping there would be something in the set to help lessen the power of yard decks.
I could see bridge getting the banhammer sooner or later if something isn't found to weaken it.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
There's little else they could do imo.
An artifact that does what RIP does at 1 mana? Another Void at 1 mana? A legendary colourless land with with RIP text? I mean these are harsh hate cards.
I dont know. IMO, just load up on the hate, and accept that thats what it takes to keep Dredge/Phoenix/Hogaak down.
It is what it is, and I firmly believe that just like when the format warped towards Phoenix (and it did, to numbers we have not seen in years), and Esper was able to tune for it, if the format warps toward Hogaak, then UWx can tune for it.
Spirits
To some extent, there isn't anything necessarily wrong with maindeck or prevalent graveyard hate. It's not like the graveyard is a niche resource anymore. There are so many strategies which use it to some extent. I expect sweepers are dead in fewer matchups than graveyard hate, which doesn't mean the format is broken, but does mean we need to recognize the graveyard as an important gameplay element. The problem arises in two situations. First, it comes up when decks have too much graveyard hate. This is the Mirrodin-era precedent with artifact hate. It's probably fine to have 2-3 MD GY hate spells and maybe 1-2 more in the SB. But requiring 8 is probably too many and a sign of warping. Second, we face a problem when drawing that GY hate is the only way to win a matchup. This is Wizards' initial ban rationale in the GGT ban, that games come down to who draws GY hate and who draws the counter to GY hate. If that is happening on a significant scale, that's also a problem.
Re: Hogaak Vine
There are no results from this weekend that will, or should, change my position. Our ban method should not change until we have consistent results from multiple venues over a longer time range than two weeks. It doesn't matter if the people calling for a Hogaak Vine ban end up being right and the card gets banned in July or later. If the ban mania method hits the target once every 1-2 years, we don't suddenly adopt it and ignore the literal dozens of misses this method produces. That method of asking for bans within two weeks of a breakout deck was wrong on so many strategies in the last two years. Instead, we stick with the data-first method, which successfully predicted the KCI ban and every "No changes" since 2017. This method may well point to a Hogaak Vine ban in a few weeks after we get some paper data and/or more sustained MTGO results. I would rather we use the accurate method that is sometimes slower to identify true problems than the inaccurate method that quickly indicts numerous strategies that ultimately are proven innocent.
I'm not sure this is still valid. After all new Dredge is better than old Dredge, is even harder to interact with (Chill) and can win as early as Turn 3.
I believe that the artificial push of 'diversity' has lead to Wizard allowing decks that would have been banned based on older belief's to continue. Dredge, Phoenix, etc, and if not for people vocally complaining about KCI, even it would have remained.
Hogaak is certainly looking unbeatable if you do not draw hate, or have your own Turn 3 kill, based on everything I've seen so far.
Here is one of the games from the winner of the Modern Challenge btw, he says the only thing that slowed him was Leyline.
Spirits
Modern can still be fun but the novelty of the format wears out fast.
In the 5 years I've played in this format, game play has never been less engaging and shallow than it is right now.
1) Find X hate card
2) Find answer to X hate card
This is the strategic depth of most of the format currently.
Anyone remember those months and years gone by where people complained that Modern is a battle of the sideboards? Those times are a pleasant memory compared to what's going on currently.
Spirits
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
The obvious brokenness doesn't matter, we need MORE DATA!
Why? They have said numerous times that this is healthy. They're flatly wrong, but that's at least what people who run the format, and don't play the format, believe.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate