But I will say this. The Hogaak Vine deck is very, very strong and can play through multiple forms of hate. If you have all the hate, they can beat you down with a bunch of 2/1s and Carrion Feeder. In my opinion, it is one of the strongest decks I've ever played in Modern. It is in the top 5 - I would say UR Eldrazi was number 1, and Rhino Pod, Bloom Titan, Grishoalbrand, GGT Dredge, and the new Hogaak Vine deck all take up the next 4-5 spots.
*Also, regarding the turn 4 rule, NeoBrand is a HUGE offender. That deck either wins, turn 1, 2, 3, or usually not at all after that. Maybe I've just gotten extremely lucky? Everyone I know watched LSV stream it and draw horribly and came to the conclusion that if LSV can't 5-0 (10-0 in games), then it's a terrible deck. I watched some of those games too and I stopped watching when he kept drawing terrible hands.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I was wrong about GDS that one time (the one mana tutor). About storm, I was calling for a ban because they would 90% of the time combo on turn3 if you didn't kill their t2 electromancer, which at the time was in the watch list, I'm sure of that. But you also don't remember all the bans I was right about, which were many.
I was wrong about GDS that one time (the one mana tutor). About storm, I was calling for a ban because they would 90% of the time combo on turn3 if you didn't kill their t2 electromancer, which at the time was in the watch list, I'm sure of that. But you also don't remember all the bans I was right about, which were many.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Quoting Chapin (who currently doesn't even play at a high competitive level) as a significant influence on wotc ban decisions?
I'm glad you have acknowledged that you have made many misjudgments and that your ban mongering cried are to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure if you throw 100 darts at a bullseye, some will hit. But I'd rather put my money on the thrower with the correct methodology.
I'm not advocating for hogaakvine to be banned or not, I'm simply saying polarised views at this stage are unfounded.
Or just don't play until the 8th cos this format is not worth our time with such a broken deck warping the whole format.
"Don't play until the next B&R announcement" seems to have been the go-to line for anyone complaining about Modern for nearly the past year. How long do we "wait for the next announcement" before giving up entirely? Or are we so financially and emotionally invested, that we just keep on playing, even though games are awful and the format is full of degenerate garbage?
I have only feelt like this two times in modern history: now and during eldrazi winter.
Or just don't play until the 8th cos this format is not worth our time with such a broken deck warping the whole format.
"Don't play until the next B&R announcement" seems to have been the go-to line for anyone complaining about Modern for nearly the past year. How long do we "wait for the next announcement" before giving up entirely? Or are we so financially and emotionally invested, that we just keep on playing, even though games are awful and the format is full of degenerate garbage?
I have only feelt like this two times in modern history: now and during eldrazi winter.
The Eldrazi deck did not have any weaknesses really, except maybe bridge? The Hogakvine deck has many weaknesses, especially post board. Just play a playset of ravenous trap in this world and they are toast. Don't exaggerate again. Every ban suggestion of yours have been wide off the mark.
I hope you realize that playing a playset of whatever gy hate maindeck is not a sigh of a healthy format, for me and for wizards.
And even then, what's the probability of drawing 1 out of the 4 maindeck hate cards before they already comboed off and have 10 zombie tokens? Like 50%?
What are you gonna do against half the other meta with 4 useless maindeck cards?
This is just nonsense. Look, I'll leave it here. Won't post anymore until the 8th, see you then.
Ah, you underestimate how many of us enjoy degenerate garbage. I get to go to SCG Pittsburgh in a couple weeks, imagine what that'll look like? Glorious, glorious garbage.
yeah, there's a challenge on playing against tough decks.
I play regularly against GDS, since a friend owns it.
in the history of strong fast decks.. what actually shocked me the most was the rise of Hollow One. It showed how deadly fast 4/4's can be.
for the present.. the new powerful decks are.. Allosaurus, Lattice Karn, Hogaak Vine. Are there others I've not mentioned?
Or just don't play until the 8th cos this format is not worth our time with such a broken deck warping the whole format.
"Don't play until the next B&R announcement" seems to have been the go-to line for anyone complaining about Modern for nearly the past year. How long do we "wait for the next announcement" before giving up entirely? Or are we so financially and emotionally invested, that we just keep on playing, even though games are awful and the format is full of degenerate garbage?
I have only feelt like this two times in modern history: now and during eldrazi winter.
The Eldrazi deck did not have any weaknesses really, except maybe bridge? The Hogakvine deck has many weaknesses, especially post board. Just play a playset of ravenous trap in this world and they are toast. Don't exaggerate again. Every ban suggestion of yours have been wide off the mark.
Hmm, I remember the Eldrazi Winter decks to be also weak against worship. Turned worship from a 2 dollar card into more than 10$ at the peak of eldrazi winter.
I’ll repeat this: whoever is comparing the new Haakon deck to any of the many Eldrazi lists during Eldrazi’s Winter... either he didn’t play much during Eldrazi’s Winter or he’s deliberately provoking the community. The power level was on another level. In my limited testing with UR Eldrazi I had 92% win rate against non Eldrazi strategies - which is totally INSANE. Haakon is a strong deck with its weaknesses.
But people were saying the exact same about Grixis Death’s Shadow two years ago.
Then, Hollow One was too good.
Tron always the strongest.
The issue isn't just Hogaak, it's the repeated and continued trend of all decks to become linear degeneracy or prison locks. Neither of which are particularly fun or engaging for either side of the table most of the time. But rather than all come at once, like Eldrazi Winter, it's been a slow and steady drip over the past year or so.
What decks, of the top decks, are actually fun to play against? Or does that simply not matter anymore, because it's better to either ignore, play through, or lock out whatever the opponent is doing? Making them an irrelevant inconvenience instead of an active participant in the back and forth of engaging gameplay?
I ask this because last night I had the most Modern of Modern moments. It was my first time playing Neoform in paper and game 1 I lost decisively due to keeping a proactive hand that couldn't kill them faster than they could kill me. Game 2, I turn 1 Thought Scour them on the play, mill over a Laboratory Maniac, and they immediately concede. Game 3, I have Spell Pierce and Path to Exile in my opening hand, but no immediate threat. He waited until 4 lands to put Allosaurus Rider into play and Eldritch Evolution it away. I Pierce, he exiles Simian Spirit Guide plus his land in play to pay for it. At this point Path isn't even good enough as he draws his whole deck (which includes Pact of Negation) and wins. Welcome to Modern. This is "healthy." This is "fun."
Question: how exactly does Hogaak Vine mill out people?
With Altar in play, you sac your own creatures to mill yourself and Bridge makes a Zombie for each. Do that enough to be able to Delve/Convoke out Hogaak. Sac Hogaak to mill yourself, and repeat this loop until you get buncha bridges in yard and zombies in play. Once you have 30+ zombies in play, sac them all to Altar to mill opponent for 60+.
Mah, I think that most people (and i’ll Put myself in “those people”) are having plenty of fun. Fun is subjective, so all we can do is talking about a) cards too strong for the current modern (there aren’t), b) issues due to the time (see KCI).
In merit of unban, I already expressed my opinion: it’s fine to unban things such as Stoneforge Mystic. But I don’t see how those changes are going to have a great impact in Modern, tbh.
Neoform Combo is a glass cannon like many others. I mean, we already had Griseshoalbrand and Belcher, it is more extreme, but certainly not a ‘good’ deck.
Question: how exactly does Hogaak Vine mill out people?
With Altar in play, you sac your own creatures to mill yourself and Bridge makes a Zombie for each. Do that enough to be able to Delve/Convoke out Hogaak. Sac Hogaak to mill yourself, and repeat this loop until you get buncha bridges in yard and zombies in play. Once you have 30+ zombies in play, sac them all to Altar to mill opponent for 60+.
Mah, I think that most people (and i’ll Put myself in “those people”) are having plenty of fun. Fun is subjective, so all we can do is talking about a) cards too strong for the current modern (there aren’t), b) issues due to the time (see KCI).
In merit of unban, I already expressed my opinion: it’s fine to unban things such as Stoneforge Mystic. But I don’t see how those changes are going to have a great impact in Modern, tbh.
Neoform Combo is a glass cannon like many others. I mean, we already had Griseshoalbrand and Belcher, it is more extreme, but certainly not a ‘good’ deck.
This is very much where I'm at.
After Phoenix was given the leash it has been, after Dredge has kept on Dredging, after UW has continued it's march towards its Legacy like Prison form, after Karn Wish/Lock, well, the bar has been raised to say the least.
Run at least 5 GY hate cards or accept that for now you have built your deck wrong, or that you are playing something Linear yourself.
Then, stuff five cards worth of Grave hate. In Vintage several decks run even 6 to 7. So what?
In the same way as you run X counterspells in Control, or Y discard spells in B-strategies.
There’s nothing wrong about it. It can be enjoyable or not, depending by the person who is playing, but certainly it isn’t ruining the format.
I think you'll find that people DO believe there is 'something wrong about it'. However at this point we are 8 or 9 months too late on that line of thought.
I dont know, since Dredge came back, and then Phoenix, and now Hogaak? With all the decks I've mentioned previously, its a fact of life.
If you want to play on the 'fair' spectrum of the format, you bring yard hate. Its not the same thing as Counters, or Discard, because those are forms of interaction that dictate your strategic approach to the format, its more about 'if you dont have an answer to this, you are screwed'.
2 or so years ago we would have said the format is warping around X, at this point though it IS THE FORMAT.
Deck has been just developed. As always, time will tell, and in the meantime people will adapt.
And, again, I don’t get all of all this ‘playing fair’. Three Tiers in Modern are Humans, UW Control and Phoenix. Two of them are fair decks, the last is the same, just disguised.
Neoform Combo is a glass cannon like many others. I mean, we already had Griseshoalbrand and Belcher, it is more extreme, but certainly not a ‘good’ deck.
As I said in my previous post, Neoform itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that Neoform is symptomatic of the larger problems in Modern. Your choices to be competitive are to play something linear/prison lock, or accept that your deck is fundamentally worse than linear/prison decks and be fine with not winning as much.
Your choices to be competitive are to play something linear/prison lock, or accept that your deck is fundamentally worse than linear/prison decks and be fine with not winning as much
Three Tiers in Modern are Humans, UW Control and Phoenix. Two of them are fair decks, the last is the same, just disguised.
The game has always been this way. You either play something degenerate or lock out the opponent. Even jund midrange just wants to kill everything until you're left with nothing in hand and a pile of lands. It's just a different flavor of prison.
The fun is in trying to poke holes in the metagame, or craft sideboards that give you an edge. Or just take a break and play more casual with decks that revolve around junk rares.
But yeah, I did enjoy the format more when there was less graveyard decks running around.
Deck has been just developed. As always, time will tell, and in the meantime people will adapt.
And, again, I don’t get all of all this ‘playing fair’. Three Tiers in Modern are Humans, UW Control and Phoenix. Two of them are fair decks, the last is the same, just disguised.
Yep, mostly agree. You have a fair Disruptive Aggro deck, a fair Super Friends Control deck, and a deck that can kind of pivot into something fair (which is my preference as a way to play it) with an unfair game 1 plan.
This is fine. The format has shift, fundamentally imo, within the last year. Its not going to go back now.
But yeah, I did enjoy the format more when there was less graveyard decks running around.
Me too. I also enjoyed it when people were rewarded for playing with their opponent instead of at them, through them, or ignoring them. But I guess those days are long gone and never coming back.
Haven't played modern since war of the spark came out but "blast zone" looks like bad news for bogles players or decks that rely on arbor elf + utopia sprawl. Does this card push out some of the budget friendly fringe decks? This is true of many competitive decks but this card looks strong.
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But I will say this. The Hogaak Vine deck is very, very strong and can play through multiple forms of hate. If you have all the hate, they can beat you down with a bunch of 2/1s and Carrion Feeder. In my opinion, it is one of the strongest decks I've ever played in Modern. It is in the top 5 - I would say UR Eldrazi was number 1, and Rhino Pod, Bloom Titan, Grishoalbrand, GGT Dredge, and the new Hogaak Vine deck all take up the next 4-5 spots.
*Also, regarding the turn 4 rule, NeoBrand is a HUGE offender. That deck either wins, turn 1, 2, 3, or usually not at all after that. Maybe I've just gotten extremely lucky? Everyone I know watched LSV stream it and draw horribly and came to the conclusion that if LSV can't 5-0 (10-0 in games), then it's a terrible deck. I watched some of those games too and I stopped watching when he kept drawing terrible hands.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I guess Chapin is delusional too.
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/38744_Building-Decks-Before-Bridge-From-Below-Is-Banned.html
I was wrong about GDS that one time (the one mana tutor). About storm, I was calling for a ban because they would 90% of the time combo on turn3 if you didn't kill their t2 electromancer, which at the time was in the watch list, I'm sure of that. But you also don't remember all the bans I was right about, which were many.
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. Quoting Chapin (who currently doesn't even play at a high competitive level) as a significant influence on wotc ban decisions?
I'm glad you have acknowledged that you have made many misjudgments and that your ban mongering cried are to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm sure if you throw 100 darts at a bullseye, some will hit. But I'd rather put my money on the thrower with the correct methodology.
I'm not advocating for hogaakvine to be banned or not, I'm simply saying polarised views at this stage are unfounded.
I have only feelt like this two times in modern history: now and during eldrazi winter.
I hope you realize that playing a playset of whatever gy hate maindeck is not a sigh of a healthy format, for me and for wizards.
And even then, what's the probability of drawing 1 out of the 4 maindeck hate cards before they already comboed off and have 10 zombie tokens? Like 50%?
What are you gonna do against half the other meta with 4 useless maindeck cards?
This is just nonsense. Look, I'll leave it here. Won't post anymore until the 8th, see you then.
yeah, there's a challenge on playing against tough decks.
I play regularly against GDS, since a friend owns it.
in the history of strong fast decks.. what actually shocked me the most was the rise of Hollow One. It showed how deadly fast 4/4's can be.
for the present.. the new powerful decks are.. Allosaurus, Lattice Karn, Hogaak Vine. Are there others I've not mentioned?
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Hmm, I remember the Eldrazi Winter decks to be also weak against worship. Turned worship from a 2 dollar card into more than 10$ at the peak of eldrazi winter.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
But people were saying the exact same about Grixis Death’s Shadow two years ago.
Then, Hollow One was too good.
Tron always the strongest.
Etcetera.
Keep calm and evolve your decklists.
What decks, of the top decks, are actually fun to play against? Or does that simply not matter anymore, because it's better to either ignore, play through, or lock out whatever the opponent is doing? Making them an irrelevant inconvenience instead of an active participant in the back and forth of engaging gameplay?
I ask this because last night I had the most Modern of Modern moments. It was my first time playing Neoform in paper and game 1 I lost decisively due to keeping a proactive hand that couldn't kill them faster than they could kill me. Game 2, I turn 1 Thought Scour them on the play, mill over a Laboratory Maniac, and they immediately concede. Game 3, I have Spell Pierce and Path to Exile in my opening hand, but no immediate threat. He waited until 4 lands to put Allosaurus Rider into play and Eldritch Evolution it away. I Pierce, he exiles Simian Spirit Guide plus his land in play to pay for it. At this point Path isn't even good enough as he draws his whole deck (which includes Pact of Negation) and wins. Welcome to Modern. This is "healthy." This is "fun."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
How's the Spirits match with these new decks?
I also saw a SUPER cool Jund deck that I hope has legs.
Spirits
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
With Altar in play, you sac your own creatures to mill yourself and Bridge makes a Zombie for each. Do that enough to be able to Delve/Convoke out Hogaak. Sac Hogaak to mill yourself, and repeat this loop until you get buncha bridges in yard and zombies in play. Once you have 30+ zombies in play, sac them all to Altar to mill opponent for 60+.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In merit of unban, I already expressed my opinion: it’s fine to unban things such as Stoneforge Mystic. But I don’t see how those changes are going to have a great impact in Modern, tbh.
Neoform Combo is a glass cannon like many others. I mean, we already had Griseshoalbrand and Belcher, it is more extreme, but certainly not a ‘good’ deck.
thanks for the answer. I understand it now.
It's amazing how fast people figure out these combos.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is very much where I'm at.
After Phoenix was given the leash it has been, after Dredge has kept on Dredging, after UW has continued it's march towards its Legacy like Prison form, after Karn Wish/Lock, well, the bar has been raised to say the least.
Run at least 5 GY hate cards or accept that for now you have built your deck wrong, or that you are playing something Linear yourself.
Spirits
In the same way as you run X counterspells in Control, or Y discard spells in B-strategies.
There’s nothing wrong about it. It can be enjoyable or not, depending by the person who is playing, but certainly it isn’t ruining the format.
I think you'll find that people DO believe there is 'something wrong about it'. However at this point we are 8 or 9 months too late on that line of thought.
I dont know, since Dredge came back, and then Phoenix, and now Hogaak? With all the decks I've mentioned previously, its a fact of life.
If you want to play on the 'fair' spectrum of the format, you bring yard hate. Its not the same thing as Counters, or Discard, because those are forms of interaction that dictate your strategic approach to the format, its more about 'if you dont have an answer to this, you are screwed'.
2 or so years ago we would have said the format is warping around X, at this point though it IS THE FORMAT.
EDIT: Here's a good read on this Hogaak deck.
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/bym9rr/79_winrate_serious_discussion_about_mh1_hogaak/
Spirits
And, again, I don’t get all of all this ‘playing fair’. Three Tiers in Modern are Humans, UW Control and Phoenix. Two of them are fair decks, the last is the same, just disguised.
As I said in my previous post, Neoform itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that Neoform is symptomatic of the larger problems in Modern. Your choices to be competitive are to play something linear/prison lock, or accept that your deck is fundamentally worse than linear/prison decks and be fine with not winning as much.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
How to win over estreme statements.
The fun is in trying to poke holes in the metagame, or craft sideboards that give you an edge. Or just take a break and play more casual with decks that revolve around junk rares.
But yeah, I did enjoy the format more when there was less graveyard decks running around.
Yep, mostly agree. You have a fair Disruptive Aggro deck, a fair Super Friends Control deck, and a deck that can kind of pivot into something fair (which is my preference as a way to play it) with an unfair game 1 plan.
This is fine. The format has shift, fundamentally imo, within the last year. Its not going to go back now.
Spirits
Me too. I also enjoyed it when people were rewarded for playing with their opponent instead of at them, through them, or ignoring them. But I guess those days are long gone and never coming back.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate