Those are all entirely fair points. I think I just personally hate telling or showing people what I'm on; even at FNM. I very much enjoy mystery and misdirection; especially if a deck has multiple different win conditions and I don't show my opponent more than one of them. I guess it's going to be irrelevant outside of this event, and likely irrelevant outside of Day 2 events (just due to the logistics nightmare of doing this with thousands of players).
As an almost exclusivity combo player I love the muligan rule but would not be a fan of the deck list rule. The surprise factor and using cards people aren't expecting or extremly familiar with account for half my wins. Turn one serum visions could be one of a large number of decks and they have to figure out what you are on. Making the opponent unsure of what you're game plan is has always been important. Idk, they are making lots of changes so we'll just have to see how it goes.
Those are all entirely fair points. I think I just personally hate telling or showing people what I'm on; even at FNM. I very much enjoy mystery and misdirection; especially if a deck has multiple different win conditions and I don't show my opponent more than one of them. I guess it's going to be irrelevant outside of this event, and likely irrelevant outside of Day 2 events (just due to the logistics nightmare of doing this with thousands of players).
You just described me to a tee. I probably do this a bit too much; it's kind of an old school type of thinking and playing in my opinion. (it's a compliment fwiw)
*I think the best answer to "what are you playing?" is 5 Color Merfolk. Everyone who asks me or knows me knows I'll be on "5 Color Merfolk" and that is a very, very broad number of decks.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
It's so easy to see on this new decklist rule who likes linear noninteractive games and who doesn't.
Playing Counter-Cat with that ruling sucks REALLY A LOT. That the opp doesn't know the exact type of interaction the deck runs and what the deck even is (and what it can do) is one of the biggest benefits, like Blood Moon less Blue Moon lists, where opponents think you are on Phoenix/Blue Moon and thus start playing around stuff which they don't even need, which gives you the tempo advanage.
For Game 1 it is a huge bummer, for game 2 & 3 it is okay, especially if it is only the cards included the deck, not the quantity.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
It's so easy to see on this new decklist rule who likes linear noninteractive games and who doesn't.
Playing Counter-Cat with that ruling sucks REALLY A LOT. That the opp doesn't know the exact type of interaction the deck runs and what the deck even is (and what it can do) is one of the biggest benefits, like Blood Moon less Blue Moon lists, where opponents think you are on Phoenix/Blue Moon and thus start playing around stuff which they don't even need, which gives you the tempo advanage.
For Game 1 it is a huge bummer, for game 2 & 3 it is okay, especially if it is only the cards included the deck, not the quantity.
Greetings,
Kathal
I dunno, knowing when to keep Muta/Pierce/Path/Goyf versus not could be huge in that deck. I think this change buffs interactive decks such as Counter-Cat, but at the cost of diversity, as strategies that care less about what opponents have but are trying to string together wins in unconventional ways become significantly less potent under this rule.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
On the one hand, I hear the potential objections about the new decklist rule reducing the element of surprise and rogue deck factor. Spicy tech can become less effective if opponents start playing around it (although that too can become an advantage; see the infamous Quench factor in Ravnica limited). It's also a real skill to identify an opposing deck over the first 1-3 turns, which definitely favors Modern specialists who are able to pull small edges such as fetching for a basic in the face of a potential Blood Moon, keeping mana up for a combo deck lying in wait, or going all-in on an attack or line believing your opponent has few outs. Similarly, it's an important skill to mulligan/keep hands that are good against the average field.
On the other hand, I can't imagine that all of those edges collectively lead to more MWP gained or lost for interactive players than the sheer frustration and decisiveness of keeping bad interactive hands against decks where the interaction lines up poorly. This thread has certainly lamented this fact endlessly for years. I remember I posted some Twitter meme, maybe a Turtenwald post, about playing control decks and praying that your narrow answers line up against whatever random crap the opponent was doing; that definitely resonated with at least a few jaded control mages in this thread. This kind of rule reduces non-games due to bad openers and mismatched answers, the net impact of which will likely far exceed the net loss of the rogue factor and deck identification. This is especially true when the rogue factor tends to favor linear, non-interactive decks that play bizarre threats which aren't readily identified or answered.
For instance, imagine opponent leads T1 Seachrome Coast into SV, going top/bottom. You're on UW Control on the draw. You have the option of going T1 Hallowed Fountain --> SV or T1 Fountain and hold mana for Path. What do you do? You're probably playing against Ad Nausaem or Cheeri0s or some weird As Foretold brew in my experience, and the SV line is an almost guaranteed auto-lose against Cheeri0s, whereas the Path line is a free turn lost to Ad Nauseam. But if you know your opponent's decklist, now you can make an informed decision and we can play a game of Magic, not a game Guess Who where you have only one guess. You're 80%+ to be right if you guess Ad Nauseam, because it's way more common, but if you guess wrong you just lose flat out. That's not a fulfilling game experience by any measure, and it's the kind of non-game that interactive players loathe. We can think of similar examples when trying to evaluate a Storm vs. Izzet Phoenix start and deciding what to hold up and play around.
Overall, if you're playing predominantly linear decks where an opponent's lines don't really matter, this rule disadvantages your deck and strategy. But if you're playing an interactive deck where you need to line up answers and gameplan against an opposing deck in a varied field, it's a huge advantage. Given that many of Modern's chief complaints focus on non-games, ships passing in the night, weak interactive decks, excessive diversity that is hard to metagame against, etc., this should be an overall boon for the format.
I tend to think the seeing the deck list rule will ultimately favor Interactive Decks. They can finally mulligan or choose a hand that lines up with what they want to play.
I think Aggro and creature-heavy decks in modern have long relied on winning game 1 and squeezing out game 2 now that more information is known. This in someways made Modern the only eternal format with creature-based aggro strategies worked. Control couldn't just have universal answers and sometimes answers didn't line up with what was presented. However, the creature-swarm strategies for the most part coalesced down to humans and spirits primarily because of tribal synergies and the passive/active disruption in their kits or Merfolk because of the spell-based disruption/utility creatures.
Phoenix and Dredge has killed them further. There is no zoo, elves, and even more spell heavy burn is not doing well. Traditional Affinity isn't doing as well as Hardened Scales which may survive because of resilience and the synergy there.
I think this will hurt creature-based aggro strategies and continue to push them out of modern. Where are the places to play them? Even Standard isn't like a bastion of those decks (maybe best of 1 arena)
After reading Frank Karsten's article on the absurdity of serum powder with the new mulligan rule I'm starting to get concerned that they're introducing too much upheaval at once. I don't mind change in the format, but it's going to be an absolute nightmare to pin this stuff down when there is so much movement in the format and tease out exactly what is causing true issues vs what is problematic, but acting as a doorkeeper for further degeneracy.
We have a new mulligan rule potentially.
We have a new set of cards being directly injected into the modern landscape in a couple months.
We have more information being presented at higher events, which imo leads to a more informed viewer and stronger interactive deck performance but I can see matches playing out very scripted.
As a collector and player I'm concerned that the delta between T1 and t2/3 is going to widen. As others have said, creature based zoo is getting left further and further behind as the format evolves. It wasn't even 24 months ago when I was griping that T1 hierarch into t2 eldrazi temple + though knot seer felt unfair. Ffs hollow one makes me feel like bant eldrazi was a starter deck sometimes. Phoenix can be even more frustrating because of how quickly the pieces can come together.
If horizons has any clear modern bait in it to move boxes and shake up the format, we could be in for a very rocky 12+ months. :/
I mean modern horizons has been described as being on a power level comparable to standard, but cards that just aren't fitting with the current sets in terms of design, flavor, themes, mechanics etc. I'd be shocked if twenty MH cards saw play in high tier decks, and I'd be doubly shocked if any new decks or rogue strategies appeared at the top tables as a result of its release.
The London mulligan is an experiment. At this point I'm laughing at the possibility that the game goes full on Force of Will and lands get pulled into a separate deck to guarantee a mana curve to everyone. Can't let anybody think that things just sometimes don't go your way for some reason.
I mean modern horizons has been described as being on a power level comparable to standard, but cards that just aren't fitting with the current sets in terms of design, flavor, themes, mechanics etc. I'd be shocked if twenty MH cards saw play in high tier decks, and I'd be doubly shocked if any new decks or rogue strategies appeared at the top tables as a result of its release.
The London mulligan is an experiment. At this point I'm laughing at the possibility that the game goes full on Force of Will and lands get pulled into a separate deck to guarantee a mana curve to everyone. Can't let anybody think that things just sometimes don't go your way for some reason.
There's a lot of space between reducing non-games and the supposed attempts to eliminate variance that you've slippery-sloped your way towards.
Are we at the point that we recognize this is grossly unhealthy, but we simply don't care because we assume Horizons will change everything?
I think most of us realize its a skewed metagame at this point, however we are assuming Wizard's wont change it because Spark/Horizon's are coming up so (relatively) soon.
War of the Spark Release date: May 3, 2019
Next B&R Announcement: May 20, 2019
Modern Horizons Release date: June 14, 2019
I dont believe many of us require more 'proof' at this point, but most of us are not in favour of the ban's it would take to bring things under control.
I don't want bans and kill money and time of people. Even 1 deck wins 2 of 8 each time 365 days... That's OK, Stopp killing money and time. Why we can't wait till new cards come to fight versus some decks, even it takes time?
I would like to reiterate my stance on loving Phoenix being as dominating as it is. Playing Blue Moon with 0 meaningful graveyard interactions outside of Snapcaster Mage, I have so far seen Jund being Grafdigger's Cage against me and GDS bring in Nihil Spellbomb. Both seemed to either trim down or not prioritize drawing/casting discard spells too. Phoenix's success is causing people to play badly against my deck because they think I am a different deck than I am. People are actively adding cards that do nothing while removing cards that would likely be meaningful. This is wonderful, and exactly how Twin helped facilitate other UR decks in the past.
so what happens if you play against someone good who knows what they are doing? unless you are losing/conceding game 1 in a manner that conceals enough information; any improper sideboarding or mis-evaluating what tools are good where just sounds like players not understanding UR control/blue moon matchups. id attribute that to a relative lack of UR cryptic deck presence rather than anything UR phoenix is doing. bamboozling people game 1 does make sense though.
incidentally i dont think this type of advantage, wherever it comes from, would diminish that much with posted deck lists. any lack of experience or knowledge on how to play a certain deck against rogue or lesser seen strategies doesnt just go away if they know your 75.
as for UR phoenix dominance, i dont think there is much doubt that the meta cycle is revolving around the deck. maybe not as simple as phoenix + decks good against phoenix, but its the level 1 foundation. honestly im a bit torn on whether its performance metrics has it crossing any lines. as for anything to do with being 'unhealthy', im kinda just shrugging my shoulders and asking: compared to what? it quickly rose in the format, and maybe that caused a shift (ie cycling) in a manner that people found jarring; however the shifting and cycling in modern isnt new - as evidenced by multiple decks uniformly stepping up or down like they have in the past.
note that when i say UR phoenix performance metrics, they are obviously markedly above average; especially in just GP top8s let alone representation. so that isnt question. what has me less than convinced is just the timeline. when the deck surfaced i believed it quickly gained traction, mainly for its qualities as a deck/strategy; then one of its obstacles in kci was removed. this in conjunction with a lot of major modern events in a short period (i mean just look at feb-mar-apr), had each successive performance build more momentum. basically ur phoenix is a new deck with many attractive qualities, hit peak popularity, and then like 6 modern GPs happened within 2 months
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It's so easy to see on this new decklist rule who likes linear noninteractive games and who doesn't.
I'm a Jund player and I hate the new decklist rule. I don't like big sweeping changes like London mulligan or this decklist thing when the game is great already and just needs finessing here and there, depending on format.
It's so easy to see on this new decklist rule who likes linear noninteractive games and who doesn't.
I'm a Jund player and I hate the new decklist rule. I don't like big sweeping changes like London mulligan or this decklist thing when the game is great already and just needs finessing here and there, depending on format.
I mean modern horizons has been described as being on a power level comparable to standard, but cards that just aren't fitting with the current sets in terms of design, flavor, themes, mechanics etc. I'd be shocked if twenty MH cards saw play in high tier decks, and I'd be doubly shocked if any new decks or rogue strategies appeared at the top tables as a result of its release.
The London mulligan is an experiment. At this point I'm laughing at the possibility that the game goes full on Force of Will and lands get pulled into a separate deck to guarantee a mana curve to everyone. Can't let anybody think that things just sometimes don't go your way for some reason.
After thinking on it I believe Modern Horizons was planned alongside the concept of the London Mulligan. If they institute the new rule, an entire series of cards could potentially be banned in the process without replacement. We're talking every leyline printed along with syrum powder, and a friend of mine already broke the game with the mulligan rule using a combo reanimator strategy. The game literally turned into praying you had a thoughtseize, and then you'd think exiling a graveyard works, but wizards put in a funny answer to that in Pull from Eternity... which also combos with Syrum Powder. So then the logical thing is to have Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's cage, except both players can mulligan until they have the cards they need, so what happens is that one person gets the answer, the other person gets a card to kill the answer, and we're back to square one.
It really changes how the game plays by a fair margin.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
On that front, pick up your Arcane Tempo challenger decks while they still exist at MSRP. The Phoenix pays for the deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You just described me to a tee. I probably do this a bit too much; it's kind of an old school type of thinking and playing in my opinion. (it's a compliment fwiw)
*I think the best answer to "what are you playing?" is 5 Color Merfolk. Everyone who asks me or knows me knows I'll be on "5 Color Merfolk" and that is a very, very broad number of decks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)For Game 1 it is a huge bummer, for game 2 & 3 it is okay, especially if it is only the cards included the deck, not the quantity.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
On the other hand, I can't imagine that all of those edges collectively lead to more MWP gained or lost for interactive players than the sheer frustration and decisiveness of keeping bad interactive hands against decks where the interaction lines up poorly. This thread has certainly lamented this fact endlessly for years. I remember I posted some Twitter meme, maybe a Turtenwald post, about playing control decks and praying that your narrow answers line up against whatever random crap the opponent was doing; that definitely resonated with at least a few jaded control mages in this thread. This kind of rule reduces non-games due to bad openers and mismatched answers, the net impact of which will likely far exceed the net loss of the rogue factor and deck identification. This is especially true when the rogue factor tends to favor linear, non-interactive decks that play bizarre threats which aren't readily identified or answered.
For instance, imagine opponent leads T1 Seachrome Coast into SV, going top/bottom. You're on UW Control on the draw. You have the option of going T1 Hallowed Fountain --> SV or T1 Fountain and hold mana for Path. What do you do? You're probably playing against Ad Nausaem or Cheeri0s or some weird As Foretold brew in my experience, and the SV line is an almost guaranteed auto-lose against Cheeri0s, whereas the Path line is a free turn lost to Ad Nauseam. But if you know your opponent's decklist, now you can make an informed decision and we can play a game of Magic, not a game Guess Who where you have only one guess. You're 80%+ to be right if you guess Ad Nauseam, because it's way more common, but if you guess wrong you just lose flat out. That's not a fulfilling game experience by any measure, and it's the kind of non-game that interactive players loathe. We can think of similar examples when trying to evaluate a Storm vs. Izzet Phoenix start and deciding what to hold up and play around.
Overall, if you're playing predominantly linear decks where an opponent's lines don't really matter, this rule disadvantages your deck and strategy. But if you're playing an interactive deck where you need to line up answers and gameplan against an opposing deck in a varied field, it's a huge advantage. Given that many of Modern's chief complaints focus on non-games, ships passing in the night, weak interactive decks, excessive diversity that is hard to metagame against, etc., this should be an overall boon for the format.
I think Aggro and creature-heavy decks in modern have long relied on winning game 1 and squeezing out game 2 now that more information is known. This in someways made Modern the only eternal format with creature-based aggro strategies worked. Control couldn't just have universal answers and sometimes answers didn't line up with what was presented. However, the creature-swarm strategies for the most part coalesced down to humans and spirits primarily because of tribal synergies and the passive/active disruption in their kits or Merfolk because of the spell-based disruption/utility creatures.
Phoenix and Dredge has killed them further. There is no zoo, elves, and even more spell heavy burn is not doing well. Traditional Affinity isn't doing as well as Hardened Scales which may survive because of resilience and the synergy there.
I think this will hurt creature-based aggro strategies and continue to push them out of modern. Where are the places to play them? Even Standard isn't like a bastion of those decks (maybe best of 1 arena)
We have a new mulligan rule potentially.
We have a new set of cards being directly injected into the modern landscape in a couple months.
We have more information being presented at higher events, which imo leads to a more informed viewer and stronger interactive deck performance but I can see matches playing out very scripted.
As a collector and player I'm concerned that the delta between T1 and t2/3 is going to widen. As others have said, creature based zoo is getting left further and further behind as the format evolves. It wasn't even 24 months ago when I was griping that T1 hierarch into t2 eldrazi temple + though knot seer felt unfair. Ffs hollow one makes me feel like bant eldrazi was a starter deck sometimes. Phoenix can be even more frustrating because of how quickly the pieces can come together.
If horizons has any clear modern bait in it to move boxes and shake up the format, we could be in for a very rocky 12+ months. :/
The London mulligan is an experiment. At this point I'm laughing at the possibility that the game goes full on Force of Will and lands get pulled into a separate deck to guarantee a mana curve to everyone. Can't let anybody think that things just sometimes don't go your way for some reason.
There's a lot of space between reducing non-games and the supposed attempts to eliminate variance that you've slippery-sloped your way towards.
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Hey! Another double Phoenix top 8 and Phoenix winner!
Are we at the point that we recognize this is grossly unhealthy, but we simply don't care because we assume Horizons will change everything?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think most of us realize its a skewed metagame at this point, however we are assuming Wizard's wont change it because Spark/Horizon's are coming up so (relatively) soon.
War of the Spark Release date: May 3, 2019
Next B&R Announcement: May 20, 2019
Modern Horizons Release date: June 14, 2019
I dont believe many of us require more 'proof' at this point, but most of us are not in favour of the ban's it would take to bring things under control.
July is hopefully going to be just insane.
Spirits
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
incidentally i dont think this type of advantage, wherever it comes from, would diminish that much with posted deck lists. any lack of experience or knowledge on how to play a certain deck against rogue or lesser seen strategies doesnt just go away if they know your 75.
as for UR phoenix dominance, i dont think there is much doubt that the meta cycle is revolving around the deck. maybe not as simple as phoenix + decks good against phoenix, but its the level 1 foundation. honestly im a bit torn on whether its performance metrics has it crossing any lines. as for anything to do with being 'unhealthy', im kinda just shrugging my shoulders and asking: compared to what? it quickly rose in the format, and maybe that caused a shift (ie cycling) in a manner that people found jarring; however the shifting and cycling in modern isnt new - as evidenced by multiple decks uniformly stepping up or down like they have in the past.
note that when i say UR phoenix performance metrics, they are obviously markedly above average; especially in just GP top8s let alone representation. so that isnt question. what has me less than convinced is just the timeline. when the deck surfaced i believed it quickly gained traction, mainly for its qualities as a deck/strategy; then one of its obstacles in kci was removed. this in conjunction with a lot of major modern events in a short period (i mean just look at feb-mar-apr), had each successive performance build more momentum. basically ur phoenix is a new deck with many attractive qualities, hit peak popularity, and then like 6 modern GPs happened within 2 months
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Out of curiosity, why do you hate it?
After thinking on it I believe Modern Horizons was planned alongside the concept of the London Mulligan. If they institute the new rule, an entire series of cards could potentially be banned in the process without replacement. We're talking every leyline printed along with syrum powder, and a friend of mine already broke the game with the mulligan rule using a combo reanimator strategy. The game literally turned into praying you had a thoughtseize, and then you'd think exiling a graveyard works, but wizards put in a funny answer to that in Pull from Eternity... which also combos with Syrum Powder. So then the logical thing is to have Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's cage, except both players can mulligan until they have the cards they need, so what happens is that one person gets the answer, the other person gets a card to kill the answer, and we're back to square one.
It really changes how the game plays by a fair margin.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
On that front, pick up your Arcane Tempo challenger decks while they still exist at MSRP. The Phoenix pays for the deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Day 2 for Sao Paulo.
Does anyone know how the metrics for Scales look over the last several events?
Spirits
2x Izzet Phoenix
2x Humans
1x Tron
1x Bogles
1x Burn
1x Titanshift
Here's the link: https://twitter.com/channelfireball:
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock